Why the Penguin is not popular anymore? He used to be Batman

>>94956997
He's too sane by today's standards.

>>94956997
He isn't the Joker. Normies love the Joker.

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>>94956997
I would say it's hard to make him edgy, but in truth, it really isn't. It's just that many people can't get behind the initial cornyness of his concept, and, therefore, can't see the appeal and the darker aspects
Also The Dark Knight & The Dark Knight Returns didn't have him, therefore he doesn't exist in the Batman universe

>>94957170
Or even Hush.

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>>94956997
The primary one is that, following the end of the 60s show and DC's attempts to make Batman serious again, The Penguin (alongside the Riddler) became the sacrificial lambs to appease Batfans's insecurity towards camp, and as the series became darker and grittier, they were turned into joke characters, has-beens and buffoons. As Joker rose to the top again, and Denny O'Neil promoted his pet OC Ra's al Ghul, suddenly the number 2 spot was taken.
Notice that, throughout the 40s and 50s, Penguin was consistently the 2nd most featured rogue and he and Joker were almost equals, and in the 60s show he and Riddler were more prominent. But throughout the 70s and 80s, he started making appearences as a joke, getting beat up by Batman for information and complaining that he didn't get respect. He had good appearences of course, and he fared much better than Riddler, but it wasn't the same.

He enjoyed more spotlight in the 90s thanks to Chuck Dixon revitalizing him as a mobster with his own personal lounge, Batman Returns and TAS, but even then, Batman Returns and it's depiction of Penguin had a divisive critical reception, and nowadays a lot of Penguin fans (myself included) regret the inclusion of the Iceberg Lounge into the mythos since now he's basically bound to it.
The 2000s weren't kind to him since not being a part of Nolan's Batman pushed him further out of the spotlight and he's been relegated to cameos as a mobster Batman beats up for information, which is still a thing to this day

However, the 2010s have seen him return to popularity a bit thanks to comics like Pain and Prejudice which edgified him enough for Batfags to finally accept him as something other than a joke, and of course Gotham which made everyone fall in love with twink Oswald, so he's doing better now than he used to.
Nowadays normies just care about Joker.

>>94956997
Because he relies on the ability of the writter to make a good thriller.

He's outdated.

The specific kind of businessman that he is still exists, but they don't look or dress like him anymore. What was once a regular suit of a recognizable kind of rich man now looks like a stupid costume.

Basically he needs to look more like Trump to be taken seriously as a villain.

>>94956997
He's a mob boss with a gimmick in a time where Batman stories are focused on being sprawling blockbusters.

>>94957568
>Penguin runs for Mayor of Gotham again
>"Make Gotham Great Again"

>>94956997
Something about the outdated clothes might explain why.

Arkham City Penguin was GOAT

>>94957519

I like Penguin and the Iceberg lounge in that weird like you know hes a bad guy and criminal, but also he keeps himself clean enough that the law can't do anything to him.

I don't know if I phrased that right, but its a cool aspect to his character to me.

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>>94957665
I like the Iceberg Lounge in concept because it's completely befitting. Penguin's always been about committing crimes under a veneer of respectability and fraud that made Batman unable to touch him at first. So him owning a villain club as a front to still conduct his operations is perfectly in character.

The problem is that, now, he's defined by the Lounge. All he does nowadays is just sit back and get fatter in it to make cameos where Batman storms into the Lounge to get information from Penguin. He's no longer doing anything, he is not committing any crimes or schemes or any of the things people want to see the Penguin do. He's become a lesser Kingpin. Basically what Rupert Thorne used to be.
The Lounge clipped his wings, essentially.

>>94956997
He's still one of Batman's most famous rogues.

>>94957127
Every single Batman villain is legally sane except Two-Face, Mad Hatter, and some versions of Killer Croc.
>>94957170
The Arkham series tried to make him edgy with mixed results.

>>94956997
He is the top five of batman villians

1. Joker
2. Bane
3. Riddler
4. Penguin
5. Poison ivy

>>94957856
Dr Pig, Scarecrow and Joker are legally sane?

>>94957890
100% yes. Joker and Scarecrow aren't legally insane because they clearly comprehend what they're doing and how wrong it is. They're just assholes.

>>94957878
>Riddler in the top 3
Yeah, he wishes.
And Poison Ivy ? Really ?

A more accurate top 5 would be Joker, Bane, Ra's al Ghul, Two-Face and Penguin

>>94957878
>no Ra's

leave.

>>94957856
almost all of them have some kind of serious mental problem though

>>94957170
>>94957856
So people on this board haven't seen Batman returns?

>>94957958
Shit, I forgot about Ras al ghul.

1. Joker
2. Bane
3. Ras all ghul
4. Penguin
5. Two-face.

>>94957127
This is basically correct, but to elaborate:

Most of Batman's most popular villains have some kind of simple hook that's easy for readers to grasp onto. The underlying metaphor of their conflict with Batman can be described in just a few words.

The Joker
>Order versus Chaos
Two-Face
>Self-determinism versus Random Chance
The Riddler
>Understanding versus Mystery
The Scarecrow
>Bravery versus Cowardice
Poison Ivy
>Civilization versus Nature
The Ventriloquist
>Holism versus Duality
Bane
>America versus Mexico

It's always been hard to nail down the core of the Penguin's indignity. What's his gimmick? That he disguises his weapons as umbrellas? That likes birds? That he's a mobster? That he's upper class? That he's a former mayor? All of these have been pushed as ways to give him a core identity, but none of them have really taken off. All of them lack that essential metaphorical conflict with Batman that makes his other villains work so well.

This isn't only the case with Batman, by the way. It applies to other superheroes as well. Geoff Johns is particularly talented at creating these symbolic conflicts in characters where they didn't exist before, which is part of the reason why his Flash and Green Lantern runs were so popular.

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>>94957878
>putting Ivy on the list
>no Two-face

>>94956997
Why is he a cockney now?

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>>94958034
>Bane
>>America versus Mexico

>>94958078
Two-Face is the second one on the list, anon.

Or are you saying I should have listed him twice?

>>94957974
Not legally they don't. Insanity is a very strict definition that only applies to 0.2% of violent criminals, and is defined as:

>1) mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable behavior.

According to Eric Bender, M.D.:

>“Someone who is ‘psychotic’ is experiencing symptoms of psychosis, a mental disorder, which can include auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices; visual hallucinations, where they see objects that are not truly there; or have delusional thoughts, despite evidence to show that such beliefs are incorrect — such as believing that one’s movements are being tracked by deep space satellites — or disorganized behavior. In the vast majority of depictions, [e.g.] the Joker is not experiencing such symptoms; rather, the Joker has shown symptoms of psychopathy.”

>“Psychopaths are not prescribed medications to treat their psychopathic personality traits. They would be prescribed medication if they had a mental disorder, such as major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder, that causes clinically significant distress or impairment in functioning. In the vast majority off depictions, the Joker does not exhibit signs or symptoms of these or other mental disorders for which medication would be appropriate; therefore, we would not prescribe him any medication.”

Batman's villains know what they're doing and are competent enough to enact complex schemes. They are not insane.

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Normies have shit taste. He's awesome, especially when he's a little bit campy. The Gotham version is shit though but the whole show was a mistake. They ruined my three favorite rogues, Penguin included.

>>94958078
>>94958119
Oh, sorry anon. I see you were talking about someone else's list.

>>94957912
Joker isn't sane, he certainly knows the difference between right and wrong but he isn't sane.
Hell he is so insane going the Lazarus Pit made him normal.

>>94958139
>The Gotham version is shit
Get the fuck out.

>>94958215
>Joker isn't sane, he certainly knows the difference between right and wrong
Then, by definition, he is sane.

>>94958263
>Then, by definition, he is sane.
No by definition being of sound mind, makes you sane, and Joker isn't of sound mind.

>>94958315
Does Joker comprehend right and wrong? Does Joker know that he's killing people in the first place?

Then he's sane. Being legally insane means you have no understanding of your actions and usually very heavy hallucinations.

>>94957604
That actually happened in a Catwoman issue
The Hillary expy was portrayed just as bad, if not surprisingly

Penguin is still widely recognized as one of the top Batman villains. Anyone who unironically believes Ras or Bane have more notoriety than Penguin, Two-Face, Riddler or Catwoman is delusional.

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>>94957787
What if they turn the Iceberg into a nightclub?

Gotham the show is bringing him back to the forefront.

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>>94957604
"Fight global warming with global cooling! We are gonna have SO MUCH SNOW you're going to be SICK of it! You'll say, 'Mr. Cobblepot, please make it stop snowing!', but I won't!"

>>94958250
No, /tv/ fags get the hell out.

Gotham was a mistake, it's nothing but trash.

>>94958815
>No, /tv/ fags get the hell out
Ha trying to be elitist on 4chan.
Dumb faggot.

>>94958250
Nah, dude, it's bad. Their version of Penguin and every other character is blasphemy.
And unlike Nolan's trash it isn't decent in some aspects. It's just awful.

>>94957940
>>94957958
Ras is absolute shit.

>>94958034

decadence versus nobility

>>94958139
How can a Penguin fan have such absolute shit taste

>>94958937
>Nolan's trash
Yup, definitely a dumb fag.

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I liked him in this. It even managed to make the "whawahwah" menacing.

>>94959137
Easily one of my favorite Penguin stories. That whole thing with the cook was just fantastic and fit him quite well.

>>94958937
>Nolan's trash
Good job,now no one is gonna take you seriously.

>>94959137
so, this ends with her dead, I guess

>>94958034
I thought it would be orthodox versus unorthodox. given the fact that both of them are rich with connections, but one use his to better himself while the other has others to do his work for him

>>94959060
>>94959235

>muh heath legend

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>>94958034
But it's very easy to nail down The Penguin's core: it's struggles with nobility.

Batman's fights with The Penguin are a proxy war for Gotham's identity. Whether the city belongs to a monster disguised as a man who wants to spread corruption and preserve criminality, or if the man disguised as a monster fighting to preserve justice and defeat criminality can redeem it at least momentarily.
From his inception as a caricature of stuffy elites, Penguin has represented the worst aspects of nobility, same as Bruce Wayne has always stood for the best. Batman Returns in particular got a lot of mileage out of exploiting the parallels between Bruce Wayne and Oswald Cobblepot.

He's not crazy, he's not super-strong, he's not endowed with any real overriding mania or fixation. He has motifs, yes, but ultimately he's perfectly sane. He doesn't go to Arkham, he goes to real big-boy jail. What the Penguin has that no one else has is a simple abundance of pure, unadulterated spite. He's a short man with a paunch and a beakish nose. He's been picked on and derided and underestimated his whole life, dismissed by his social betters and spit on for being different. He's ruthless and cunning and amoral because those are the cards life dealt him.

In Batman's world there's madness, obsession, will and strength - but ultimately it all comes back to crime, pure and simple. The Penguin's motivations are pure because he simply resents the whole damn world and will not rest until he gets his. The Penguin is a criminal with avarice in his heart and hatred in his eye. As much as he tries to be otherwise.

No character epitomizes the rotten soul of Gotham better than Oswald Cobblepot.

>>94958034
>Bravery versus Cowardice
>Civilization versus Nature
>Holism versus Duality
>America versus Mexico

You really are stretching some of these, aren't you ?
Penguin is not that hard to understand, he's an evil opposite to Bruce Wayne. Two nobles representing the best and worst of Gotham.
A villain doesn't need to be insane to be interesting.

>>94958984
That could be an interesting angle to play up with him, but you'd really have to lean into it hard to make it work.

>Every morning the Penguin climbs off of his mattress stuffed with $100 bills. He goes for a swim in his pool filled with vintage wines, then enjoys a breakfast composed exclusively of steaks made from endangered species. After that, he makes use of his solid gold toilet.

>>94959137
I really, really hate Joker's Asylum. Mostly because of the stupid way it retconned Penguin's backstory so that he killed his own birds.
I'm sick to death of edgelord Batman villains, especially if it's Penguin.

>>94959295
Ends with her being sent back to the same whore-house/sex slave place he initially saved her from.

>>94958980
I'm not saying I like Ra's, just that he is at the top spot of Batman rogues. This is not disputable.

>>94959489
Is that better or worse than being dead?

>>94959484
I liked it. It was a bit 'edgy' here and there, but I don't really mind that with Batman or his villains. It was cool to see all the different art styles and characters that are usually used for comedic effect (Riddler, Penguin, Mad Hatter etc) being played completely straight.

>>94957624
>Arkham City Penguin was GOAT
He was pretty great, actually. He was a refreshingly scummy take on the character. Most fun I've had watching Penguin in years.
But the "bottle in eye" gimmick is retarded and the voice is oh so fucking awful that it makes it hard to tolerate him half the time.

>>94958139
I'll be the first to talk at length about how awful Gotham is but I'll also point out that Oswald is far and away the best character of the show.
That doesn't mean I think he's the best version of the character (as many seem to), not by a long shot. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have gotten halfway through the first season if it wasn't for him.
Also, props to the actor for being a Batman Returns fan and defending it

>>94958749
The method is a bit radical(the wall things) but the idea isn't actually that bad to be honest.
Reflash the neighborhood isn't that bad idea. History had prove that it does help to solve and lower the crime rates.

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>>94957604
He even got elected without cheating.

>>94958749
>Comic writer tries to make a villain a strawman for political beliefs he hates
>Ends up making him sound sensible.

Everytime.

>>94959509
Non comic readers still don't know who he is., he's probably less known than mr freeze

>>94958034
Penguin is way more popular than the Ventriloquist.

>>94959311
>>94959384
You're kind of demonstrating my point though.

If the conflict were actually obvious, you wouldn't need to explain it at length. Just a few words would be enough.

Any hero and villain can have some kind of symbolic conflict if you play Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon to get them there. But the best ones are those who don't require any explanation, because it's obvious from just watching the characters interact with each other.

Anyone else remember back in the early days how Joker and Penguin were best friends?

I remember one time Penguin faked his own death and Joker was devistated?

I like seeing villian buddies.

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>>94959848
>you wouldn't need to explain it at length. Just a few words would be enough.
And you did get a few words on it in these posts >>94958984 >>94959311 >>94959447
I >>94959384 just explained it at length because I like talking about Penguin whenever the opportunity arises.

You are somehow able to stretch and extrapolate symbolic conflict from characters without a shred of motivation like Poison Ivy and fucking Ventriloquist and yet you fail to do the same for Penguin even though they go out of their way to reinforce the connections between Bruce and Oswald ?
I think you are either being very selective or you just simply haven't read any Penguin story or given the character a single second of thought

>>94958749
That would probably get a lot of people to vote for him just because he's "honest".

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>>94956997
We just need the next Batman cartoon give him an overhaul with a tragic bacstory.

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>>94960030
It was fun watching these two fumble around trying to top each other and having a sort of friendship.
They used to also form a "Terrible Trio" of sorts with Harvey.

Too bad Joker is too much of le edgy chaos god nowadays to team up with any rogue.
Still, I guess Riddler kind of became Penguin's friend as a result and the two have even better interactions.

>>94958315
He is of sound mind, he makes conscious decisions knowing the repercussions. He's just a sociopath serial killer who enjoy murdering for a joke.

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>>94956997

They often showed him as a joke, even when his umbrella was a machine gun.

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>>94960210

Ugh, sorry I fugged up.

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>>94960160
They tried that a bunch of times already.
The thing about Penguin is that even though he is obviously tragic, he isn't Two-Face or Mr.Freeze. His tragic aspects will never, and shouldn't, completely take over his character.
He is a sane, spiteful, greedy little man who willingly chooses to be awful. Batman Returns' Penguin, arguably his most tragic version, even depicted him exploiting people's sympathy and still depicted him being solely responsible for his downfall.

>>94957519
What do you think will cause twink Oswald to get fat in gotham?

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He wanted to play the Penguin. Naw, I'm just screwing with you.

Screw you Olaf.

>>94960092
>You are somehow able to stretch and extrapolate symbolic conflict from characters without a shred of motivation like Poison Ivy and fucking Ventriloquist and yet you fail to do the same for Penguin even though they go out of their way to reinforce the connections between Bruce and Oswald ?

I think it's important to make a distinction between a character's motivation and what they represent on a metaphoric level. The two are often related, but they aren't the same thing.

Let's use an easy one as an example. The Turtle represents "slowness", which contrasts with the Flash who represents "fastness".

But the Turtle's motivation isn't to go slow, or make other things go slow, He wouldn't describe that as being the core of his identity if you were to ask him. Like most supervillains, he's just a criminal who steals money in service to a longterm goal of living a comfortable life. It's his motif and his powers that give him his symbolic relevance, not his motivation.

>>94960776
Probably boose if he keeps drinking like he does.
All I know is that I want to see Robin Lord Taylor in a fatsuit

>>94960174
Penguin also hangs out with Bane from time to time, right?>>94960174

>>94959137
As much as I liked the way he used his pull to get revenge on people, the story made him way too paranoid. Part of Penguin's appeal is that he's not a lunatic like a lot of the other rogues but this story has him going through complicated revenge schemes because he thinks someone MIGHT have laughed at him.

>>94957519
The DCEU have also alluded to Batman stomping him in the past and only reference him in jokes meaning there's basically no chance he'll be in a movie any time soon. Meanwhile Ra's, Joker, and Bane got to be the main villains of a very popular and well-received trilogy of films, while Deadshot, Harley Quinn, and Killer Croc got their own movie, with a Catwoman/Ivy movie and a Joker movie coming up. Even as far as games go- the popular Arkham series relegated him to a minor role while Joker, Bane, Ra's, and Scarecrow got big ones (Scarecrow has also been in three movies in the past few years). Deadshot, Harley, Joker, Scarecrow, Catwoman, Bane, Mr. Freeze, and Poison Ivy also showed up in Injustice.

He just hasn't been getting much exposure compared to other rogues.

>>94956997
Have you read Joker's Assylum: The Penguin? He was literally DC's Kingpin in that and it was great. I guess he isn't popular due to the lack of tv synergy

>>94961761
Yeah, on its own it's still a great and terrifying story but it probably would work better with another character. Someone much more unhinged than Penguin.

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>>94959774
What a weird comment to make the day the news releases evidence that Trump tried to get a hotel built in Russia with the Russians offering to win him the election to get it done...

You can't fool me, Russian spies.

>>94959788
How is that sensible? Building a structure around a problem doesn't solve the problem, it's still there.

>>94961378
Not that I know of. Their only appearence together was in Forever Evil were they reached an understanding and Bane decided to not go after him and let him continue being mayor.

>>94961814
Which reinforces what I said about him not receiving much recent exposure and other, more marketable rogues supplanting him
>there's basically no chance he'll be in a movie any time soon
With the current state of the DCEU I am perfectly fine with that.

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>>94961869
That's what I saw most of the Joker's Asylum stories as. Neat little non-canon shorts where the writers played around with the concept of the characters, while taking some of them to their extremes.

>>94959833
He has been in a boat load of shit lately, the only thing that separates him from others is that he does not have a costume that makes him stand out. Since the pure crazies have gimmicks they are easily recognizable even if someone redesigned them 8x in 2 days like if you see a character with question marks you know that must be Riddler or a lot of plants being used means it is Ivy but Ra's mostly has that little bit of gray hair and a cloak while his clothes are not consistent,.

>>94959788
This issue was actually equally satirical to both sides. The Hillary stand in turned out to be using her campaign resources to cover up a murder she had committed as a child.

>>94957981
Most under 20 haven't, especially normies.

>>94958749
Transplanting a Trump-expy into this setting doesn't work because in the real world Trump is retarded but in the DCU this particular stance would be totally reasonable. A fucking Duterte-expy would be totally reasonable. Gotham is basically Somalia if Somalia also had a demon curse that made everyone evil instead of just the warlords.

>>94962342
>because in the real world Trump is retarded
Don't you have a statue to protest?

>>94962497
Don't you have a blood relative to stick your dick in?

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Any of you read his original story? He's a cunning trickster in it. He uses his eccentrical appearance to slip unnoticed in many places, turns the police against Batman, takes over a gang and escapes in the end. And much like the Joker, he kills several people too. I think Dixon and Timm manufactured his "legitimate businessman" persona out of his desire to remain a harmless art collector in this comic.

If I were to reinvent the Penguin I'd bring this version of him back. Slippery, cunning and eccentric, with lots of tricks up his sleeve. Make him a ridiculous-looking but intelligent burglar, maybe make him a master of disguise of sorts, or expand his backstory with nobility and Oedipus complex as a motivation for "wanting revenge on society" or something. He should be more unnerving that disgusting like Burton made him, imo.

>>94956997
It is true he is a little wayside, but I still like the Penguin as sort of a classy and kind of grounded foe. He doesn't try to beat Batman physically or match him mentally, bother with deathtraps.

He just ties Batman down with needing to actually do legit detective work to find the gap in the armor of litigation and veneer of civility he uses.

But that's just my outlook.

>>94962497

>d-daddy trump isn't a retard you SJW! He's s-so BASED!!! MAGA!!! Ha ha, y-you mad libtard? All Liberals are ANTIFA!

>>94963658
>All Liberals are ANTIFA!
Except this is true

>>94963658
The best part is that the ones going "I love liberal tears" are the very first ones to throw a crying fit if anyone dares criticize their leader

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>>94957604
>>94957604

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What Oswald needs is a qt loli sidekick that loves penguins

>>94965128
No, that's what I need

Because he hasn't been in any movies lately to make him cool with normies. He was popular back when Batman returns came out.

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>>94965128
sounds like that would be more up Jervis' alley, honestly

a voluntary alice perhaps

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>>94965128
Funny you mention that.
In the 1966 Batman newspaper comic strips (published to capitalize on the show), the Penguin had his own perky female henchgirl, Beulah.
She was basically a proto Harley in physical appearance, personality, and accent, except published three decades before Harley debuted.