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What went wrong?

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What went wrong?
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What didn't?
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Bad editorial decisions
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New and Different != better or interesting.
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>>94495281
Carol and Jess should have raised their baby together.
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>>94495281
>>94495332
The problem is the charachter executions
>Nadia Pym/wasp
This charachter is, despite how much I hate the overuse of the word, a mary sue. She is smarter than everyone else, immediately liked by everyone (even doctor fucking doom). She was unneeded as she provides nothing to the universe, only existing because of the ant man movie. The charachter has the paper thin personailty of a le quirky teen girl.

>Captain Marvel
Carol should never have taken the title because of the way she was potrayed as Ms. Marvel: an alcoholic who was a borderline washed up hero. If anyone should have been the current captain marvel, it should have been photon (who was captain marvel before and has the personality that lends itself to being that role that marlel is trying to push onto carol)

>Miles Morales
The charachter is bland and brings nothing to the table. Had Bendis not created not wrote the charachter at all due to his Donald Glover high, someone would have found a way to create an intresting spider man who also happened to be black. The charachter has more than peter ever did at that age: his parents, a nice classy school, mid-upper middle class, financially sound. There is nothing that makes him interesting in any way. Marvel has trashed the spider man brand since one more day in reducing peter to a fucking manchild and fucking the spider man brand with so many diffrent useless flavors of spider charachters: spider gwen, miles, spiderverse.
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>>94495281
>>94495332
>>94495407
Continued

>Jane foster thor
They keep trying to sell her as the greatest thor that ever lived in that she and the hammer have a unique bond, but they commited the sin of telling not showing. The charachter is okay but nothing to write home about. At least Jason Aaeon burnt the feminism out of his system early in the run.

>Riri williams ironheart
The same sin as Nadia pym wasp: intelligent mary sue immedietly liked by everyone else with no flaws whatsoever.

>the cringy hellcat series
I don't know why marvel thinks the appropriate way to write female charachters are as womenchildren. Kate leth took hellcat and made her a self insert. Hellcat was a charachter who literally suffered in hell and now they turned her into a thirty something woman acting like a child for some fuck knows reason.

>Sana amanat
One of the editors at marvel, she has been tainting the brand in such ridiculus fucking ways, being given leeway by her superiors. She came up with kamala based on her experiences as a child. When kamala was successful, marvel granted her more power and she's been crashing the plane ever since

>the rest
The whole MCU synergy has really poisoned marvel and hasn't been a real help to improve the comics.
After the whole milkshakegate thing, it was clear to me that the majority of people in charge of marvel are the same people who bullied comic readers in school and jumped on after it became trendy to like nerd culture. Fuck, a lot of the people within marvel will still insult their core fans : the ones who have been reading marvel for longer than a decade. Marvel has a horrible public relations image. At least DC manages to conduct themselves in a mature manner. Marvel just thrashes and makes idiotic descisions, thinking there won't be consequences.

If I missed anything, sorry
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>>94495516
>The same sin as Nadia pym wasp: intelligent mary sue immedietly liked by everyone else with no flaws whatsoever.

I don't think RIRI is a mary-sue, she usually get into arguments with tony stark and characterized as being a anti-social bitch that doesn't got any friends, she isn't even that smart. He stole tech from stark. Also, did she meet real tony stark? I only saw comics with his A.I.
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>>94495281
A new mini relaunch right after they just had a mini relaunch. Completely unnecessary.
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>>94496480
But Bendis isn't writing her with flaws. It's us interperting it that way. He's trying to make her seem better than tony stark.
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>>94495281
SANA AMANAT
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>>94496480
Wait, found it

>>94496576
In her afro days, she seems to be like a tony stark fangirl.
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>>94495281
Too little time spent on fleshing out characters (except for a few), too much time spent hyping for event comics. All New got a bout 2-3 months of books before CIVIL WAR II YOU GUYS was annouced (and delayed) and set up Secret Empire wtih Marvel Now. Sad to say same shit's happened with Marvel Now since we're about to hit Marvel Legacy.
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>>94495407
Isn't Photon dead AF?
Nadia is a waste. Could have easily made her a creepy wasp-human character that takes care of her parthenogenetic fetus-looking larvae and wants to lay eggs in Spider-Man. Could still retain the super-genius and homosexual things but have it more interesting by having her simply act and confuse others except for her partner.
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No Ghost Driver
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>>94497056
His show ended so we got Ghost Ghost.
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>>94495281
All milkshakes, no talent.
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>>94497288
Damn right, it's better than your's
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>>94495369
Gamora and Sue doesn't look bad, just worse suits
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>>94497288
Their milkshake's not bringing any boys to the yard.
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>>94496480
>I have an infographic.
>As we all know, infographics are the final arbiters of all tricky definitions.
Calling something a "Mary Sue" is making an analogy to the original "Mary Sue" character in "A Trekkie's Tale": badly written, paper-thin, and faces no real adversity in the present (just soft obstacles she knocks down easily to show how great she is). If the story reads like the writer is fantasizing about being the character and getting everything they want (possibly including a tragic death), that's a Mary Sue.

The specific details matter less than that the story around the character is validation porn rather than something with real tension or conflict.

>she isn't even that smart.
That's just bad writing, though. They tell that she's a genius, they show that she's rather dim-witted. "Tell then show otherwise" is the worst way to fuck up "show don't tell".

>she usually get into arguments with tony stark
Arguments, sure, but he handed her his legacy on a silver platter for basically no reason.

>anti-social bitch that doesn't got any friends
She's admired and respected by the people who matter. Some people fantasize about being envied and resented by nearly everyone, as validation of their superiority. Some people rationalize their bad personality as a kind of strength, so they don't fantasize about being likeable.

Being liked by everyone was one of Mary Sue's superficial traits, not the core concept being criticized in "A Trekkie's Tale", which is validation porn.
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>>94497984
Let's not forget that Riri Williams asked her elementry school teacher to oppress her as a means of motivating herself to become great.
If someone needs to be victimized to pursue their greatness, then that flimsy storytelling needs to get trashed.
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>>94498109
Isn't that a blatant character flaw?
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>>94497030
>Isn't Photon dead AF?
I don't think so. Last I've seen in Secret Wars she had been captured by Ult Reed.
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>>94498165
Not if it doesn't actually matter, otherwise it's just a joke.
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>>94495281

>What went wrong?
Peter's series has been aimless since Superior Spider-Man. The Agents of SHIELD tie-in series is a visionless cash-in. Hopeless's Spider-Woman series had an interesting hook at least but little to back it up. The Spencer Captain America arc has been a clusterfuck. Red Wolf LOL.

>What went right?
King's Vision was great. Miles, Kamala and Jane all seem to get a lot of critical buzz and sell well. Coates's Panther will probably go down has one of the definitive takes on the character. Spencer's Ant-Man run was decent.
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>>94495407
>she was potrayed as Ms. Marvel: an alcoholic who was a borderline washed up hero.

See, at least THAT made her interesting. It would have been great for her to have made a slow burn full of character development, and then give her a true "Stepping UP" arc where she truly earns some respect organically. That, I didn't see.
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>>94495369
>Carol
Ok pairing it off against Cho just isn't fair, because he's GOAT carol artist. But honestly the new suit is pretty cool looking in its own right.

>Sue
the Epting design is better in literally every way.

>Widow
Same suit, just one artist decided to go for titties and the other didn't

>Wanda
Both are shit, fight me

>Spider-woman
Old one's definitely better, but I'd kinda like the new one for just a one-off suit.

>Shulk
The new suit is fine, but wtf is up with that art?

>Gamora
Honestly both are pretty great

>X-23
No point in even comparing those
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>>94498109
I hate the anons that keep on talking about this scene in the comic. It is like they trying make a stupid meme about her (like that fem thor comic page). It always force people to not form their own opinions and always ruin the whole product.

Through, it is your opinion to dislike her.
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>>94498165
It doesn't count as a character flaw if the author is too fucked up to see it as one.

Anyway, if you argue about which character is and isn't a Mary Sue, but you've never read "A Trekkie's Tale", read it (it'll only take a minute):
http://wiccananime.com/amslt/amslttrekkiestale

It's an over-the-top parody of the worst Star Trek fanfic, and it's very, very short. There are things that just didn't have time to come up, so I think people seize on the absence of some things as essential when they're not.

>>94498406
>Peter's series has been aimless since Superior Spider-Man.
What do you expect? His nemesis took over his body and fucked a midget with it, then gave back control.

It's the most brilliant act of supervillainy ever conceived.

Dr. Octopus won. That's the end of Peter Parker's story. All there is left is to have him try and get back together with Mary Jane, and she says, "...but you fucked a midget!"

Or he can join the Avengers and get in a fight with Ant-Man. "You hit your wife!" "You FUCKED a MIDGET!"

It's all over for him. You can spider a thousand mans, but you fuck one midget...

>Peter Parker
>The Marvelous Midget-Fucker
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>>94498593
People hate that scene for a reason, no meming. It's diffrent from the thor page.
With Riri, she's reducing her ambition to something unnecessarily petty, which is for people to tell her no. It's not even about her being black or a girl. No one discouraged her.
She just obnoxiously asked the teacher to oppress her. She's asking for adversity where there's none so she can pat herself on the back gor nothing. Imagine that shit with any intelligent charachter in the marvel universe. It's just plain idiotic
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>>94498634
But no one seems to care about her being a midget. Probably because that is relatively normal when your neighbor could be a skrull or mutie.
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>>94495281
I love reading pic related and thinking "hey, none of this shit would surprise me."
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>>94498789
No one *seems* to care about her being a midget, but everyone's thinking it.

All the readers are thinking it. You can't help it, any time you see him:
>That is a man who has fucked a midget.

>There he is, starting his midget-fucker's company.

>Now the midget-fucker's punching a bad guy.

>Can you believe that a midget-fucker would try to date a normal girl? Look out, normal girl!

>Oh no, he's interacting with the specific midget he fucked! It's like it's happening all over again in my mind! He's getting right up in her goulash! She's hot for his metal tentacles!

It's just there, in the background, all the time.

Forever.
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>>94498713
>It's diffrent from the thor page.
No, It is not. It is the same bullshit every time. It is the same SJW angle.

>She just obnoxiously asked the teacher to oppress her. She's asking for adversity where there's none so she can pat herself on the back gor nothing. Imagine that shit with any intelligent charachter in the marvel universe. It's just plain idiotic

She wanted to be a underdog? It wasn't oppressing her, she wanted to be cool as her hero.
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>>94498634
So Mary Sue's powers are:
>Getting everyone to love her
>Being overpowered for her setting
>Having character backstory that apes elements from existing characters
>Dies sacrificing herself to help others

It seems that Ironheart has the traits of being well-liked for low effort and being rehashed elements since she is an Iron Man derivative and has dead family members like other superheroes. In terms of overpowered for the setting, she is noted as extremely intelligent at mechanics, but multiple existing characters have similar feats in their past. Her actual fighting and tactics are complete trash and has to be constantly told what to do from the suit's AI, so not overpowered there. She hasn't died and since her personality seems to be confrontational to everyone and needing to be told she can't do something to bother doing it, seems unlikely she would.

So 2/4 I think? Could go either way. The big issue is the disconnect between her claimed skill level and her feats. If she was consistently doing what it seems she could, would be one, while if instead others recognized that she is trash and that got to her so she studied tactics, she would be a normal character.
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>>94499006
>not wanting comfy married supervillain shenanigans with Otto and Anna Maria
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>>94495281
only sticking to movie styled plots and not promoting other characters unlike their faves. awkward handing of legacy characters, boring writing, events hijacking everything, bendis.
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>>94498967
10/10
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>>94499558
The cherry on top? That was posted back in 2015, and this year Prowler did get a six issue (stealth)miniseries
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>>94499829
Really? I hadn't heard that. I was surprised when Donald Glover was tagged as "Alias: Prowler" in Homecoming in Spidey's Stark-O-Vision. I wonder if those are at all related.

I mean, Glover's mature and older than Holland, but I'm still shocked they bothered pulling him in and not only not being Miles in any like future-alt-universe capacity, but just being some fucking random criminal
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>>94499917
His character (Aaron Davis) was Prowler in the Miles run of Ultimate Spider-man
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>>94499968
How was he in Ultimate? Never knew much about it, up to a point. Seem like they'd do something with it or just a dumb reference?
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>>94495369
Sue's white outfit looks 10x better.
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>>94500181
Prowler stole the spider that gave Miles his powers, later Miles causes his death by using his gimmick on Prowlers suit
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>>94499176
Again, you're looking at the superficial, overly specific elements, and not the theme: A Trekkie's Tale is validation porn. The implication is that the author wrote it, seeing herself as Mary Sue and just basking in being so wonderful, and it's the best thing in the world to her, but it's a completely boring, terrible story to everyone else.

It's a standard mistake bad writers make, to misinterpret heroic fiction as masturbatory fantasy about being wonderful and always winning. When they do this, they create Mary Sue characters, and they write stories that are just about winning, not about the struggle and the setbacks and the bad plans and mistakes and the convincing feeling that victory is neither easy nor assured, but must be worked and wagered for.

>Her actual fighting and tactics are complete trash and has to be constantly told what to do from the suit's AI, so not overpowered there.
...except she does have the suit's AI, so that's just playing out how she's so young and inexperienced (but still wins easily all the time).

>She hasn't died
Do you see what I mean about superficial aspects? The author of A Trekkie's Tale was bringing the character's story to a conclusive end very quickly to make a point.

Anyway, can you imagine at today's Marvel, that if they did write the Death of Riri, that the other characters wouldn't have a big soppy cryfest over her?
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>>94500378
All the black and women characters would show up to her funeral and talk about her, but would have nothing specific because they don't actually know/care about her and she hasn't done anything of value. So in-universe virtue signalling.
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>>94495369
The Shulk comparison would be more apt if pic related was used instead
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>>94500442
That image isn't new enough for that. Carol is a good benchmark for the era since her bodystyle changes over time.
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Catering to SJW/ tumblr.
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>>94500552
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>>94500552
That shirt has become her whole character. I wish I could say I care, but nothing previously about Mockingbird I read grabbed my attention.
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>>94500552
>>94500600
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>>94500552
>Catering to peoplewhoneverbuy/ comics.
Shitter's full of the sales figures.
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>>94500552
God, fuck Mockingbird. For all it gets thrown around and what that one dude is saying about Riri, but she's the literal embodiment of a bland, wish fulfilling, perfect character written entirely for reasons that aren't to be an interesting, involved fucking character. Definition of a Mary Sue, fuck everyone involved in that.
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