Is it really acceptable that Queen Moon is actually a bigger

>>94486098

Why does she have to be super intelligent in order to be well written?

>>94486148
I just figured that she was supposed to be disappointed in Star because Star is a carefree idiot most of the time instead of having enough brainpower to see the consequences of her actions. Instead it's turning out she sees a ton of herself in Star that she loathes and that's hitting really close to home for me and I don't like that.

>>94486189

The problem is you and not with the writing.

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>>94486098
FUCK YES I WAS JUST ABOUT TO MAKE A POST GETTING ON MOON'S DUMB ASS

I don't think it's bad writing, I think we're supposed to view Moon as intelligent and capable for all of Season 1 and like 3/4s of 2: she's the queen! She owned the wand! She's calm and mature! She can go Butterfly form! She beat Toffee! How can Star ever compete?

But then in late 2/the beginning of 3 it all comes crashing down. She's struggling to keep the approval of her subjects. Her magic is fine but Star has way more potential than her. She knows she doesn't know what she's doing and is constantly worried about Star. She makes a complete shitshow about getting the spellbook back (does nothing for weeks, lies to the MHC) even if the end result would've been the same either way. Her reputation as "Moon the Undaunted" is way overblown, caused more problems than it solved, didn't even involve her own magic, and in the end Star had to fix what she broke.

I think she and Star are actually both dumb, but Star's more proactive and has more ability/potential. I saw a post offsite saying that Moon "deserved" to kill Toffee that I'm probably going to respond to in more detail later, but in short: fuck no. Moon had her chance to do that decades before; time for someone else to clean this mess up.

>>94486189
Her problem at the start of the series wasn't that Star was/is an idiot. Her problem was that Star wasn't taking her duties as a princess seriously, and even then it's only because it makes Moon's job harder. Moon described herself as like Star back when she was her age.

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>>94486303
deserved to kill Toffee instead of Star doing the job, that is

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Even knowing I'll be disappointed in the new season, I can't wait to see it.

i guess this is new thread

>>94486829

the guy making these good openings is doing a service

>>94486098
Nah, Star is a much bigger fuck-up in every possible way.
You have to remember that the entire fiasco was due to Star fucking up and getting the wand cleaved in a way that let Toffee in it. If she had listened to Buff Frog and managed to think of a plan and get Marco out of the cage before it reformed stronger she wouldn't have needed to destroy the wand at all. Star also died, literally died, and lost the spellbook to Ludo leading it to getting torched.

Your waifu goggles are seriously clouding your judgement. Star is a catastrophic fuck-up who only manages to "save the day" through her insane plot device natural powerlevels and bullshit super saiyan mode that allows her to literally resurrect herself from the dead without realizing it because Glossaryck lead her to it.

Moon is human. She's not a master level planner but she at least tries to plan and tries to do what's right. Star doesn't think about shit and just blasts things with her wand till it works

>>94486303
>is constantly worried about Star
with very good reason

>>94486303
>and in the end Star had to fix what she broke.
Star didn't fix it at all. Moon rather cleverly didn't kill Toffee because she got alarmed by Eclipsa's corruption seeping on to her. Star, however, killed Toffee, so the spell and the deal is complete, and Eclipsa will be free. Moon will probably die.

Again, Star didn't fix shit. Moon cracked something, but Star finished smashing it to pieces.

>>94486098
>didnt watch season 1
starts parents are terrible rulers, people starve and live in poverty and they all rely on a single plantation of corn

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>>94487363
Didn't mean that was a bad thing actually.

Just that it felt for some time we were getting an image of Moon as super capable and then it gradually fell apart piece by piece. I think that was actually a great decision for both giving her character depth and because "why can't Star just be like Moon" would be the constant question if that impression stayed consistent. Despite the tone of my post I do like Moon (but I do like Star more).

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I want to impregnate this bug and take full responsibility!

>star is going to look like Moon when she's older
>gonna lose her cheeks/chin and look like a turkey

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>>94487517
Why is Moon so much better than Star?

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>>94487409
Star fixed it through reversing the magic corruption, which would have reached its full extent if no one had interfered. And Star was the only one willing/able to do that: whether she fucked up or not by letting the wand get cleaved in the first place, at least she learned from that experience and applied her knowledge.

At that point letting Toffee live wasn't exactly an option, because he'd still be dangerous and has just shown he's willing to hide in the shadows for years to plan and pull off his revenge schemes (maybe they could've gotten Rhombulus to crystallize him, but at that point he was in the sanctuary-- as a direct result of Toffee).

We don't know exactly what freeing Eclipsa will mean; while she's pretty obviously a villain, it's possible she wouldn't have been interested in the young Moon for whatever she plans to do, but will be in Star who has power comparable to hers. I don't exactly see Moon using Eclipsa's spell as clever when maybe there were other options that wouldn't involve the Queen of Darkness, evil forces, and magic cancer to kill one guy, and even if it was her campaign against the monsters only seemed to make things worse for everyone too.

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Fuckin hell Carl

>>94487604

Glosseryck was the one who pushed Moon into seeking Eclipsa. Its not really fair to blame that decision on her when the one person who she asked for help refused and instead manipulated her into that decision.

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>>94487815
That is true. But in some form or another Glossaryck's manipulated every major character who affects the plot in some way, so to some extent you just have to take it as a given that what every character does plays into his plans anyway. I do wonder if she could have just asked him to open the chapter and so skipped over the whole contract part, but it's possible he would have just refused.

More on the Star-killing-Toffee note, Moon sure didn't care about the consequences of freeing Eclipsa when she attempted the spell on him again. It didn't work, yeah, but once Star killed him it was no different than if Moon had considering the end result is the same either way.

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>>94486098
>are my waifu goggles clouding my judgment?
I see you are an anon of refined taste.

>>94487910

Moon trying the spell again was just grief and revenge. She wasn't thinking about the consequences.

>>94486098
>or are my waifu goggles clouding my judgment?
You're a waifu degenerate, so your opinion and understanding on characterization, story, and everything is understandably shit.

>>94487910
>Moon sure didn't care about the consequences of freeing Eclipsa when she attempted the spell on him again.
No shit, anon. She was filled with grief.

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>>94487980
Not accusing her of not thinking in that instance, just if it had worked the situation would've ended up the same. She also didn't seem worried about Star killing Toffee until after the fact.

Again, not thinking due to the intensity of the situation and that's okay, but it seems like there are multiple ways he could have ended up dead and so killing him maybe shouldn't be viewed as entirely Star's fault, if literally everyone else there would have done it too.

>>94487342
Moon's "plan" was literally "let Toffee win and hope it's not that bad". So no, she's definitively a bigger fuck-up than Star.

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>>94487980
>>94488070
Or, I guess to phrase it a little better: I agree Moon wouldn't have been thinking of the consequences and it's totally understandable.

I'm not sure Star would have been either though, after pulling herself back from the dead or nonexistence or whatever and attempting to defend her loved ones.

End result in either case is that he would have died.

>>94487604
But the magic corruption wasn't caused by Moon, it was caused by Star destroying the wand in Toffee's presence to that he got into the wand and could corrupt the magic

Moon only corrupted her own body, the same corruption that was on Eclipsa's arms. And besides she only went to seek aid from Ecplisa because Glossaryck gave her the idea and the situation was desperate and she was trying to save her kingdom as a you girl Star's age.

>at least she learned from that experience and applied her knowledge.
She didn't learn shit. The wand got cleaved because despite Buff Frog clearly telling her that Toffee is different, Toffee knows about their magic, that she needs a plan, she didn't make a plan and just rushed in blasting magic everywhere, and ended up playing everything just the way Toffee wanted and needing to explode the wand with the whispering spell.

Then later, she again ignored both Moon and Buff Frog telling her that Toffee is dangerous and she needs a plan - fuck, she even boasted about not having a plan because "plans aren't her thing", just went in blindly blasting everything, and even ended up using the whispering spell to explode the wand, once again playing right into Toffee's hand so that everything worked out the way he wanted.
The only difference is that suddenly Star apparently had the crazy magical power to resurrect herself because Glossaryck was there. But she literally didn't learn shit and repeated all the same mistakes that caused the whole disaster in the first place.

That's what pisses me off about this the most, actually. Star didn't learn a single fucking thing, she's not clever, she's still a goddamn idiot and a fuckup who doesn't think about the consequences. But she got to "save the day" anyway because hurr her powerlevel is over 9000 now because she's the MC. There's no work, no development or character growth, no responsibility, she's just naturally crazy powerful lmao.

>>94488153

Her plan was "Toffee won, lets wait it out and hope something changes." Which is a fair plan considering how badly she got BTFO before. If you were in her position, what would you have done? Star basically got lucky.

>>94488168
>being this much of a brainlet

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>>94487660

>>94487409
But that's stupid. Just letting Toffee walk away to continue plotting against her was the opposite of clever. And as far as Eclipsa being freed now that Star killed Toffee? It was Moon who made that deal, so that's yet another one of her messes that Star will have to clean up.

>>94487910
>Moon sure didn't care about the consequences
Moon didn't care about the consequences when she thought that Toffee had just murdered Star and she was overcome with grief and rage and thought that all was already lost, so what the hell.
Star boasts about not planning and not giving a shit about consequences. Not giving a shit about consequences is her normal modus operandi - she actively refuses to ever give any shits about consequences.

You can't defend Star while trying to shit on someone else for not caring about consequences.

Moon fucked up because she was scared and facing an extremely dire situation alone, because her mom had just been murdered and Glossaryck refused to help. Star constantly fucks up because she consistently and actively refuses to listen to advice and think ahead. There's a huge difference.

What matters most is that the people believe they're in good hands with her. She has to come off as strong, composed, and intelligent, even if she isn't. We saw that it's something she picked up by ascending to the throne at such a young age that nobody would take her seriously otherwise.

That's what she's trying to explain to Star when they're hiding and Star points out that she used to be a badass. She doesn't always have the strength or answers, but she's the ruler. Her job is to lead and nobody's going to follow someone who shows weakness all the time.

>>94488196
Moon's job as queen is to protect her kingdom. Instead, she abandoned her kingdom and tried to hide. Had Star not rejected that awful plan, the only thing that would've changed would be the Mewmans pretty much getting annihilated.

>>94488098
You're just trying to defend your waifu, anon

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>>94488168
She's literally god-tier/Lucifer power level

>>94488347

Moon chose her child over her kingdom, which I can't really blame her for. It makes her a bad Queen but I wouldn't call that fucking up. And again, she didn't have a plan. She tried to fight Toffee, failed, and so tried to hide and bide her time until the situation changed. Moon didn't plan on hiding forever but she wasn't going to rush in and try to fight Toffee without magic and without any allies. Star played right into Toffee's hands with her recklessness and was only saved by her doing something no one knew was even possible.

So, what would you have done in Moon's position? I would have tried running off to get help from Ponyhead but that didn't seem to be an option.

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>>94488168
>>94488168
I wasn't saying the corruption was caused by Moon (maybe indirectly in the loosest sense through creating a situation that give Toffee the idea to do that-- but no, not even then). Was arguing that even if you want to see it as Star "letting" her wand get broken, she actively attempted to correct it later because she had inside perspective on the situation and was willing to take a risk. I think Toffee's persistent enough that he would have come up with some other plan if that hadn't worked anyway, but whatever.

I think performing the Whispering Spell was a plan, she just couldn't come up with it from outside of her kingdom because it was only speaking with Ludo that gave her the idea to it. Facing/evaluating the situation to decide on a course of action.

I'd say if anything Toffee fucked up his own plan by (1) thinking he could kill the god of magic and (2) keeping the magic princess into the literal source of magic, rather than just holding her hostage in a dungeon or whatever as he'd originally planned. In fact if Star hadn't done the spell (maybe if she'd had a different plan, or followed Moon until she got captured by Toffee), she probably would have ended up in a dungeon and been unable to do anything at all to restore the magic. More than that though, Glossaryck had already trained Star to some extent to be capable of dipping down and restoring the magic; she didn't just pull that off at random.

I'd say she's learning more about the dangers of her world, that she can't depend on everyone around her and will have to face them alone anyway, put herself at risk for the sake of something bigger than herself, etc., but whatever

>>94488153
No, she was distraught because - as a direct result of Star fucking up - Toffee seemed to already have won; Glossaryck was gone, the book was gone, the MHC was wiped out, her own magic was gone, the magic in general from the universe is gone, the wand is cleaved and corrupted and Toffee is back and is controlling the other half in Ludo's body. She couldn't figure out what else to do and just tried to keep Star safe until she could find a way to do something, she was panicking.

Star is, again, a much, much bigger fuck-up. What she wanted to do was exactly what Toffee was hoping for, she just ended up killing herself so Toffee didn't have to.

Once again, it's essentially a pure miracle that Star turned out to just have the raw power to recreate magic - or to find it in Glossaryck's pot and to recreate the wand. There was no way of knowing she could do that.

Star fucked up and had herself killed and literally ruined her entire family dynasty and kingdom, leaving her subjects at the mercy of Levitato-it-Ludo. It was a total surprise miracle that she turned out to be able to resurrect herself in a godmode version.

Frankly, I think this will be a plot point in upcoming seasons - she hasn't learned anything, she still fucks up, keeps repeating her mistakes, is impulsive and irresponsible - but her powers are now frighteningly strong. She has insane might but not the sense to wield it.

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>>94488327
I actually wasn't criticizing Moon there; my argument was that it's hard to criticize Star for killing Toffee when he could just as easily died through Moon, if that'd happened a few minutes earlier. Wasn't criticizing either of them there; just saying that Toffee was pretty much already dead then no matter who actually pulled the trigger.

I'd say Star cared about the consequences facing her kingdom, family, etc., and is at least willing to risk her own life to pull them off. If anything the consequences she ignores most concern herself.

>>94487660
literally me

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>>94488348
Where's the lie?

>>94486098
All the s3 opening me conviced me of is that Star is an extremely lucky fuck up. Just cause Moon didn't know how to fix her colossal fuck ups (and an impending one) doesn't make her somehow worse. Her solution as a kid was way more clever than anything Star has done.

The only thing I really would begrudge Moon for is not being more open with Star in the case that she had to step in as queen without her. But maybe she only held information back from her initially because she's so flighty and flakey.

I honestly don't know how you'd read the situation any other way.

I will concede the kingdom isn't in good shape, though.

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>>94488168
>>94488488
Pic related possible?

>>94486098
What did she fuck up you spastic?

>>94488702
E V E R Y T H I N G

>>94488347
When faced with an impossible situation, sometimes it's better to just go into hiding and hope something eventually changes. It's not the most noble strategy, but it's a lot better than charging in without any idea how you're going to win once you get there.

>>94488709
Hiding was the right choice. Barging in was fucking stupid but it worked out. Moon in the S3 open did literally nothing wrong other than not hiding in another dimension and gathering political support with other parties
Star is still an eternal fuck up and people who think she 'missed' when she hit Toffee's finger are speed watching spastics

>>94488688
>Marco still loves another girl

So when Star blew herself up, did she think there would be a way to somehow get out of the wand after doing what she planned to do?

>>94488752
>did literally nothing wrong other than everything

>>94488688
Yeah, I'm fairly certain that Star will be all arrogant with Moon because she still doesn't understand how the situation was, Eclipsa will be freed now, she'll appear to be the quirky aunt who loves candy and who was unfairly branded a monster just because she fell in love with one, she'll become a sort of mentor figure for Star, they'll bond.

But eventually it'll turn out that nope, she's the big bad of seasons 3-4 after all and she'll almost manage to corrupt Star and lead her down the path of truly horrifying amoral crap and not really giving a shit about your duties or the kingdom (I mean Star certainly already has shown that she cares way more about her own amusements than about duty or responsibility, and Eclipsa ran away to fuck freely and left her family and her kingdom to fend for themselves lol) and just doing whatever you want lol fuck everyone else

But because it's a kid's show and Star is the MC, she'll eventually snap out of it and will FINALLY learn a lesson about the importance of responsibility, duty and thinking about the consequences of your actions, but I'm guessing it's gonna get really dire before that. Such is my prediction.

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Guess who's free from more then just her prison. Where's her corrupted markings?

>>94488826
No, she didn't know that was a possibility. She thought she was sudokuing because it was the only thing she could think of at that moment.

I mean she wakes up and fully believes she's dead and panics.

>>94488838
Season 4 will be Star's redemption arc after she falls to Eclipsa in the season 3 finale.

>>94488860
Moon's carrying that burden now

to add to my prediction I wouldn't be surprised if Moon ends up encased in crystal in order to stop the progression of the corruption

>>94488827
>star literally gets herself killed until the universe itself convulses and spits her back out into the mortal plane
>she would have doomed the entire butterfly eugenic line, because her mother had to rush in and try to save her ass
>the want was destroyed out right, not just corrupted
>the right thing
>as opposed to protecting the bloodline and biding time for a few generations until a strategy can be formed or a weakness found
She did the right thing. Anti-moon fags are basically as retarded as Star is.

>>94488826
Get out the way Toffee got out?

She seemed to believe she'd be able to leave with him. It's not actually clear if that would have been true but from the perspective of everyone involved Toffee left her to die.

>>94488891
The latter half of season 4, maybe
I wonder if she'll try to kill Jackie

>>94486098
I sincerely don't understand why you're so surprised that Moon is a fuck up. The entire Butterfly bloodline is nothing but autists and retards.
>that page of Marco and Star's Guide to Every Dimension about the princess that was obsessed with circles.

>>94488860
>>94488900
Star is forced to kill her own mother.

>>94488904
>Star pulled herself out through the power of magic
>I'm not sure the Butterfly line is worth preserving
>she made a better wand
>after a few generations Mewni, magic, and the Butterfly name would be gone

I'm not an anti-Moon fag, I'm an anti-Moonfag fag

>>94488904
My theory is that antimoonfags are just blinded by their waifu goggles. It was the same discussion around the time the last episodes of Season 2 aired, aka the neverending parade of Star fucking up in various ways. Some people just refused to admit that Star was written to be a multifaceted, flawed character who occasionally fucks up, and instead tried to insist that she's a sweetheart and a darling who can't be blamed for anything and who tries her best, trying to shift the blame for Star's mistakes on anyone and everyone else

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>>94488997
For what it's worth I think they're BOTH dumb fuckups, it's just that Moon seems to get more of a pass for it than Star because she's still sort of riding her previous "mysterious badass queen" reputation, and so I like to shake that up a bit.

Moon fucked up the spellbook situation hard, Star lost it in the first place, it ultimately didn't matter in the end but they both had a hand in it

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>>94486098
>bad writing
"My waifu is treated like a real imperfect person with flaws like everyone else in this show" is not bad writing. It's not like this came out of nowhere at all. Did you miss "I did a lot of things [when I was your age] that you won't be doing" in Game of Flags and Moon's whole speech at the end of Face the Music about how it's a Queen's duty to put on a mask of being flawless and undaunted for her people?

We're examining Moon's mistakes and real flaws now because Star is realizing them for the first time, and this is important because she is in the stage of growing up where she realizes that her parents are just people too. She knows now that her mother isn't always right and can't handle everything herself, even things she promised to take care of like retrieving Glossaryck and the Book of Spells from Ludo.

This time Star was the one who saved the day and cleaned up Moon's decades-old mess. She both made better decisions than her mother and demonstrated that her magic was far superior.

This is the pride, before the fall.

>>94489081
Moon gets more of a pass because she hasn't fucked up as bad and is at least trying not to fuck up. But your right that neither of them seem all that great. Maybe fucking up runs in the Butterfly bloodline.

>>94489104
>She both made better decisions than her mother
You what

>>94488992
>things that she had know way of knowing would occur
>made the right choice
Except she didn't. She chose the most successful out come by making the wrong choices. Moon knew little and had few ways to learn more. She played it extremely safe
>not sure the butterfly line is worth perserving
Putting aside the obvious, that perserving you bloodline is a natural priority, AND the fact that a royal bloodline does nothing but increase that importance, the lore clearly points to butterflies being peak eugenics. They have those cheek marks because their family has been around magic an awful lot, it's started to affected them on a genetic level. They have natural capacity for powerful magic on a level only seen in the MHC and they're one of two human bloodlines confirmed for capable of casting spells unassisted. Their writings and ancient knowledge generated a nigh omniscient being. And, finally they act as arbiters and protectors of not just their realm but magic in general given their relationship with MHC.
Should they let the bloodline die and gimp mewmens?
I mean lets remember. Had they both fallen there would have been no one left capable of stopping Toffee or even Ludo level threats.
HMmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Ignore me just posting Hekapoo

>>94489081
But Moon isn't a dumb fuck up. At most her only mistake was not telling the MHC about everything when Star told her but as we saw she out performs them anyway and was worried about Star's reputation. Star then pulls a two-for and fucks up royal public relations and snitches at the same time.
Had Star kept her mouth shut there wouldn't have been an issue. And really, that was THE fuck up. Everything else is perfectly justified to rational people. Those criticising her hiding are brain dead.

>>94489192
what kind of fish would Jackie be?

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>>94489104
>this time Star was the one who saved the day and cleaned up Moon's decades-old mess. She both made better decisions than her mother and demonstrated that her magic was far superior.
Can you name even one decision that she made which was better than Moon's? Even one?
She got bailed out by deus ex magic she didn't even know she had so don't act like that was part of the plan

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>>94489111
I'd want to say Moon fucked up worse, or at least first, through Star having to deal with the repercussions of a situation she literally had no part in originally creating, but it's hard to measure that/they all fuck up.

>>94489151
Doing something unknown that has a small chance of bringing about a positive result > doing nothing while knowing it will change nothing

Also Moon knew magic was being drained from the universe. Forget generations of preserving the bloodline, there would have been nothing to preserve because in a matter of weeks the magic would be gone entirely

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>>94486098

I think most of you people are taking this particular cartoon's writing too seriously. And for /co/ that's saying something. This show is not the epitome of bad or good cartoon writing in western media. But I feel like this has become one of the most overanalyzed 'popular' cartoons on here.

I like analyzing shit but some of this stuff is getting ridiculous.

>>94489307
Except it was being corrupted. Except Star didn't even use magic and the use at that point would corrupt them.
>small chance
There was no conceivable chance. If the choices were waiting on the roof for firefighters that may or may not come and jumping 12 stories to the flat ground which is the right choice?
>jumping because God himself reaches his hands from the clouds to catch you and place you gently and safely on the ground
Starcucks deserve her. Their retardation completes each other

>>94489211
Not telling the MHC wasn't the main problem, it was also taking so long to search for the book in the first place.

If she'd gotten there in time, Ludo being possessed could have been avoided, and from there it would have been much easier to take the wand/book back from him and maybe attempt to solve the fritz based on that.

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>You will never get a homecooked meal from Star

>>94489386
Not sure what you're arguing anymore. There eventually would have been no magic at all if they kept waiting it out.

Star doing anything had more of a chance to change shit than hiding would have.

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>>94489141
Star confronted the situation and figured out on her own the only possible way to actually confront Toffee and have any chance at fixing everything. She took that chance despite the risk of her (and Ludo) dying because it the right thing to do and the only thing that really could be done to resolve her situation.
Moon had no plan, and after they realized the Sanctuary was corrupted just like everything else all she could think to do was hide for two weeks and delay the inevitable and necessary confrontation with reality.

>>94489251
Star took the best chance available to her.
Of course Toffee anticipated she would, he's smarter than both Star and Moon and he's been planning this shit for years. Toffee is a good villain and a good planner because he creates situations where his enemies taking the best options available to them still result in his victory.

Moon had nothing and wasn't trying to do anything to change anything. There was no realistic hope that they could just hide forever and somehow wait Toffee out. She clearly had no intention of "regrouping to seek help" like some anons keep repeating to defend her; magic in Mewni was dead, their allies would be just as helpless against Toffee as she was. The only thing she was thinking about in the two weeks they sat around doing nothing was protecting Star, which is a noble and understandable goal as a parent but not as a ruler or leader.

>>94487951
>That delicious butterfly feet
Like mother like daughter I guess

>>94489387
>blaming it all on the book loss
If that's the case then Star hiding it as long as she did fucked things up. Moon has shit to consider and a country to run. She DID mobilise and she would have got the job done if toffee weren't involved, which WOULD have been the case had Star fessed up the moment it had happened.

>>94489263
Moon naturally fucked up first because she's been alive much longer than Star and was also left to face a very scary situation pretty much alone.

Nevertheless Star fucked up way worse. The only people trying to claim that Moon fucked up worse are waifufags who refuse to accept that the catastrofical mistakes are all a part of Star's development arc and Nefcy's grand plan.

Moon made an understandable though tragic mistake as a young kid because her advisors failed her and she thought she was doing the necessary thing. Star, on the other hand, consistently makes multiple disastrous mistakes that all make the situation progressively worse, simply because she's self-centered and impulsive and repeatedly, actively, refuses to listen to the advice she's given, thinking that she knows better. She also learns nothing from her past mistakes and instead just keeps repeating them because planning isn't my thing lol.

>through Star having to deal with the repercussions of a situation she literally had no part in originally creating
Do you think Moon created the war between Monsters and Mewmen that led to the Septarians rebelling against their king and killing her mother? Yet she had to deal with the repercussions and try to save her kingdom, as the new queen.

And you're forgetting that Star (via fucking up the wand, letting Toffee get into it so that he could sap magic from the world, losing the book and then causing things to get heated because she caused a riot and made the MHC lose confidence in her mom via her little song day reveal) contributed WAY more to the disaster they were facing than what Moon did to the mess she inherited. I rather doubt young Moon single-handedly caused the Septarians to become so powerful they were able to almost conquer the kingdom.

So yeah, they both inherited a mess someone else started, but Star made her mess exponentially worse herself.

>>94489385
If you don't want to read analyses for thing x, why do you come to threads that are for analyzing thing x

or is this a "I'm not interested in thing x, so no-one else should care for it either, how dare people online discuss something I don't care for" thing

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>>94489465
Star took about a day to do anything about it, and then give up and tell her parents. We don't know exactly how much time passed between Bon Bon and Raid the Cave so it could have been slightly longer, but it's the episode immediately after it's stolen and there's no indication a ton of time passed (Marco's still persuading Star to tell her parents so it can't be that long).

After Raid the Cave, about a week at least seems to pass between Star turning the search over to Moon and Ludo getting possessed (and that's just assuming those episodes all occur consecutively). After that, it's more or less another week before we see Moon attempt a search at all.

Just going by the number of episodes Moon took longer to get involved than Star did.

Why does Star talk with an American accent when the Moon, Eclipsa, and River talk with british accents?

>>94489440
>>94489441
>best chance
There was nothing available. She committed suicide because she was an arrogant retard. Even LITERAL children told her she was being a fucking idiot.
They had no idea if they could fix things. They never tried to consolidate. Given the situation, assuming Star couldn't resurrect for death the right move was to go into hiding let whatever happens, happen and deal with it from there. It might have been Star's kid that retook the throne using tools from another dimension, it could have been any number of things. Let us not forget that Ludo wasn't invicible, that Toffee wasn't in full control nor was he resurrected at all without the finger. Cutting Ludo's hand off was a more measured solution than the gungho shit star did. She took the worst logical path and only made it out alive due to an a mystic resurrection never before seen.
>oh no but magic died
Tough tits. The world is more than just magic. If it can be killed it can likely be corrupted and brought back
>but that's what star did
Unbeknownst to her

You people are almost clinically brain dead

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Janna is gypsy filth and needs to be spat on

>>94489606
>counting time in episodes
So basically meaningless then? Nice. She didn't report it immediately which is still a MAJOR fuck up when it's basically national secrets and a WMD rolled into one. It wasn't Star's call.

>>94489624
To make it clear to the viewer that she is retarded

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>>94489465
>She DID mobilise
Taking the guidebook's placement of "Just Friends" on April 1st as canon, it took her MONTHS to get around to dealing with Ludo. And she was ready to do it alone, surely dying, if Star/Ruberiot didn't call her out in front of the entire kingdom. She massively underestimated the seriousness of the situation and even if Ludo was just a stupid shitbird she took a huge risk leaving the Book of Spells in his custody for any length of time.

>which WOULD have been the case had Star fessed up the moment it had happened.
Star tried to get the book back herself immediately after it happened. She tried to take responsibility for her failure and clean up her own mess.
When she failed, she went right to Moon, and Moon's exact words to her were "Don't do anything. We'll handle this. You just sit tight."

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>>94489506
I'm still saying they both fucked up, don't get me wrong.

It seems like Moon's actions of hunting down the monster army may have made the monster-Mewman situation worse; at the very least we know she's prejudiced again them (understandable going by her history) and that she may have worsened tensions/relations on both sides through earning/keeping this reputation.

I think the wand was doomed to be fucked up no matter what; if Toffee spent like 30 years on that one plan there was probably a failsafe. Losing the book was entirely Star's fault but Moon didn't help make that much better. At least her secret being revealed to the MHC etc. allowed them to get their shit together and investigate the temple, and from there have Moon learn Toffee's back-- yeah, maybe it wouldn't have changed much, playing into his hands to some extent, etc. But at least knowing he's out there is better than them being caught entirely off guard later, maybe even once the corruption was worse.

>>94489385
i like star

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>>94489554

It's actually a 'I wanted to see what people thought of x and came to this thread to read but after paragraph long posts about points that don't seem to be as deep or complex people think they are I felt the need to say y'

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>>94486098
>Queen moon is a fuckup
>When she can handle the wand and NOT burn the town down

>>94489441
Anon you're trying to make it seem as if Star figured something out in advance and knew what she was doing and "took the chance".

But she herself says that she had no plan.
She just barged in, and in the end the only thing she could figure out in the moment was hoping that blasting both her and Ludo to death would somehow help and she'd just do like Toffee and manage to get into the wand and then, uh, I dunno.

Star's best chance would have actually been to calmly try to discuss things with Moon and try to ask her for more information about the wands and the magic and whatnot, and to actually FORM A PLAN, but instead she just kept acting irrationally and disobeying Moon and being wild.

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>>94489684
>counting time in episodes
>So basically meaningless then?
Are you seriously basing your argument on the premise that all of Season 2b happens in less than a week?

>>94487951
She looks so fucking good when her hair isn't so fucking stupid

>>94489764
We have no idea about the circumstances between that report and her mobilisation nor the actual time frame. What he DO know is that moon mobilised. Identified the issue, (fucked up by not telling the MHC) and tried to solve it somewhat peacefully initially, given her interactions with Ludo's brother.
>Star tried to fix her own problems
Star is independent already. In fact her aversion to authority and asking for help/advice and taking it are one if not the most major flaws she has. On the one hand it's understandable. On the other she played with the lives of her entire people just because she didn't want to get scolded.

>>94489629
maybe those literal children were dumb too

Also if magic died Toffee would've won, it would've been over. Yeah, he'd still be in Ludo's body but for all intents and purposes he'd now be legitimately invincible (he still keeps his regeneration, apparently).

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>>94487660
i needed that
Thanks Doc.

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>>94489629
>The world is more than just magic.
Do you even watch this show, my dude?

>>94487363
This. Star was basically pitted against an enemy Moon bitched out to, and only "beat" with dark magic that she fucked up using.

>>94489684
Going by what the episodes themselves present to us more time passed before Moon did shit than it took Star to do shit. Literally the difference between 1 episode to do anything vs. like 12.

>>94489904
>also if magic died Toffee would've won, it would've been over
No, not really, Toffee would have died with it, you fucking retard. If it well and truly died while he was stuck in the corrupted wand he would have no means by which to resurrect or manipulate Ludo. Star forced Toffee's resurrection. You act as though it was going to happen one way or another but he needed his finger for that.

>>94489923
Yeah and heaps of people subsist without, including peasants, monsters, humans and basically everyone who isn't a magic warped wand wielding monarch.
Do you watch the show?

>>94489963
Okay, so there'd be no Toffee, but there'd also be no magic and the Butterfly Kingdom in ruins because of Ludo's shit, so preserving the bloodline wouldn't have done much good after all.

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>>94489990
>Yeah and heaps of people subsist without, including peasants
Without the Queen's magic Mewman society would have been wiped out by monsters centuries ago. Mewnipendence Day, Into the Wand, Marco and the King and more repeatedly make this point. It's the whole fucking reason behind Toffee's plan to neutralize magic, it's the only thing that can threaten his "immortal" life and hold back the monster hordes. Your average monster could rip the average peasant in half.

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>>94489906

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>>94490122
im gonna need a stronger dose than that

>>94489826
>Moon's actions of hunting down the monster army
>she may have worsened tensions/relations on both sides
>Moon's actions
what? Jesus dude you're way deep in your waifufaggotry, trying to headcanon shit up to make Moon seem worse.

They weren't Moon's actions. Her mother had been in peace talks with the Monster king, when apparently Toffee had gone rogue, gotten half of the monster army to follow him and rebel against their king, and they then killed Moon's mom. It was Moon's mom who had been waging the war and trying to work out a peace treaty, which was about to get signed. Moon didn't make many actions, she was just the princess till her mom got suddenly killed and she had to step up. Then she needed to kill something immortal, Glossaryck was of no help, and she went to the only source she could think of that could teach her the spell to vanquish the threat to her kingdom.

Also if you look at the other tapestries like Solaria's, and also the history told in Mewnipendence Day, the animosity between monsters and mewmen goes back for generations - and trying to pin that all on Moon in a desperate attempt to make it look like she fucked up as bad as Star is absolutely retarded. She inherited a huge mess from her Mom she didn't cause in any way, and efficiently risked her own health and soul to end it and defend the kingdom. Star, on the other hand, very much helped make the mess wayyyyyy worse than what it was, in various ways.

>>94488166
>>94487604
>tfw the movie was no where near as epic as those posters
>tfw there'll never be a movie of young Moon and young Star teaming up against Toffee

>>94490074
Ludo wanted to rule and be loved. Without Toffee he wouldn't have murdered all those people. Without magic he wouldn't have been able to hold power.
Mewni would still be there albeit worse for ware but plenty of other dynasties, states and kingdoms have had it worse.

>>94490111
Except the Johansen's somehow manage. Mewmen have grown fat and complacent. Star can beat up Buffrog and friends without concern. So can River and Moon. It's no different than many societies. Civis are useless in conflict. Just like other early feudal systems natural death rates would be somewhat higher but that's understandable and acceptable.

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>>94490177
I'm not gonna look up the exact quote but "I will hunt down the remains of the monster army and scatter them" probably didn't earn her a great reputation among other monsters in Mewni, even if the lizards etc. she was targeting personally deserved it. I'm not sure how well the peace treaty actually worked out considering current monster-Mewman tensions as depicted in the present.

I'm definitely not trying to blame that all on Moon, that can go all the way back to the first Butterfly queen, but she didn't seem to make anything better and that seems to count as fucking up.

Star's knowingly risked her life too as a result of problems inherited from Moon. Endless cycle of fucking up.

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>>94490168

>>94489904
>if magic died Toffee would've won
Like other anon pointed out he'd just have been stuck within Ludo. He needed Moon to hand him the finger in order to be able to regenerate out from the sea of magic. Moon was forced to hand it over because Star rushed in and killed herself and got herself stuck inside the wand because she didn't plan and acted on an impulse, which made Moon so desperate she gave him the finger (lmao). He's only able to regenerate around Ludo once the finger is back in place.

Again, if they'd calmly talked shit over with Moon and Star had taken the time to think about things with Moon in a safe place, they might have figured out that while they might lose magic from the world they might at least be able to somehow kill or contain Ludo in a way that'd also kill Toffee within

>>94490303
>he'd just have been stuck within Ludo
No. He was in the (hand grown around the) wand shard that was in Ludo. He would have died. At that point he was entirely magical in his existence and ludo sure as shit wasn't immortal until the resurrection into toffee.

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>>94490177
I'm not that guy but he's not talking about when Moon was still a princess.

>I did my job! And as your queen, I will continue to do my job of protecting this kingdom! I will hunt down the remains of the monster army and scatter them without country or leadership! Now, are there any questions?

When Moon was a princess, Monsters had a king, an army, and a society organized and civilized enough to try to negotiate for some kind of peace with Mewmans.
After decades of Moon's reign, the only monsters we see are savages and mercenaries living in poverty, most not even knowing defining events of their history (the Great Monster Massacre). The only "noble" monsters left are the Avarius clan, implied in the guidebook to have aided Mewmans against the Septarsis clan (Toffee and his men), and even then they're confined to the Forest of Certain Death and living in poverty compared to the lower Mewman nobility.

Nothing is spelled out but between her words and what's changed during her rule it's easy to read between the lines.

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>>94490289
Doc, you are a lifesaver

>>94490225
Magic seems pretty integral to Mewnian life so it would've been hard to fix let alone maintain with no magic at all. Also the MHC would be totally dead too.

>>94490225
>the Johansen's somehow manage
They're clearly allies of the Butterflys, even if they don't like each other. Flags was a thing when Moon was Star's age, long before she married River. It's not just a family picnic.

>>94490364
And? MHC dealt purely with magic and were constructs of Glossy. Without Daddy glos they were basically aimless so it wouldn't matter if they were dead. Without magic they might as well be dead too.
What makes you say magic is integral to their lives? We see no magic at all in mewnian day to day. It's only use is in defence against monsters which is handled by Moon and through stuff like the barrier.
The only change is that they'd have to start fighting monsters again, a feat they're capable of. They have warriors and have shown great physicality before. Having a super powered murder monarch makes it easier and makes war and militias unnecessary but it's not as though they're incapable especially with how scattered and damn near genocided monsters are.
Moon did a good job. Short of the remaining lizards showing up mewni wouldn't have a care in the world long term.

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>>94490358
No problemo just come back for your prescription

>>94490281
>"I will hunt down the remains of the monster army and scatter them" probably didn't earn her a great reputation among other monsters
You're talking about the monsters that rebelled against their own king and attacked the kingdom? The rebellious monster army who killed her mother?

Seriously if a bunch of soldiers go rogue and murder the monarch who's come over to sign a peace treaty because they don't want peace, they want to continue fighting and take over the kingdom, and the heir of the murdered monarch then gets her shit together and defeats and scatters them, I wouldn't consider that fucking up.

It's ludicrous that you're legit trying to claim that managing to defend the kingdom against horrible odds and avenge the death of your mom is "fucking up" because boo hoo your enemies who betrayed their own rulers might not think too highly of you once they lost, what the hell. Waifufaggotry truly clouds people's judgment, it's incredible.

Like what do you think young Moon should have done, in order to not fuck up in your eyes? Seriously, I want to know. Let the rebel monsters take over the kingdom? Cede half the landmass to them so they wouldn't feel bad about not winning?

I mean, it wasn't a bad strategy. The monsters aren't causing much problems for the Butterflies at all by the time of the show's events. Toffee is the problem, and Ludo's rats, but not really the monsters, because they were that thoroughly defeated. And Toffee's goals didn't really change that much beacuse of Moon, he always wanted to conquer Mewni and kill the Butterflies.

>>94490405
>allies
It's tradition but they're different kingdoms. They didn't aide butterfly kingdom and likely they would receive aid. Regardless you're aided in war not in day to day protection. The johansen's can manage. Butterfly Kingdom can manage. Thing would have to change and many would die but it wouldn't be a threat to their civilisation. You're intentionally trying to inflate the risks of the situation to suite your purpose. In fact, you are wrong; Star was wrong and while Moon mishandled the execution of some choices she still had the right choices when push came to shove.

>>94490353
Yeah, and when Moon was a princess, the monsters were organized enough to form an army that was a threat to Mewni and got her mother killed and almost conquered her kingdom. Now, not so much.

Sure it's brutal, but it's also efficient. And the biggest threat, Toffee, was always a threat.

I'd place some responsibility about that also on the monsters, for rebelling and murdering the monarch who's about to sign a peace treaty. Pulling stunts like that just might result in a backlash and worsening relations, you know.

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>>94490352
>He was in the (hand grown around the) wand shard that was in Ludo
Toffee was in the source of magic. He WAS magic at that point. He was not contained to Ludo's half of the wand crystal, throughout the whole last season he could influence both wands and was causing the Fritz, affecting/disrupting everything that drew power from magic.

>He would have died. At that point he was entirely magical in his existence
Toffee did not "kill" magic in the sense that it was destroyed, he "killed" it in the sense that it was neutralized; nobody could make use of it.
This did not affect him at all, because he was clearly still controlling and formed himself out of the same inert magic muck. His new body was made out of the stuff.
If he had corrupted every single last chunk of magic in the source it wouldn't have affected him in any way. It certainly wouldn't have killed him, it gave him new life.

>>94490438
Is it really worth killing all magic and the MHC just to kill one guy, when it could be possible to get the same result but save them and the magic?

The Butterflys seem to use it pretty regularly, as well as for the barriers, possibly defenses, etc.

Having to fight monsters again could also mean losing the entire kingdom, or at least a large number of lives that could have been avoided with magic.

>>94490497
>Star was wrong and while Moon mishandled the execution of some choices she still had the right choices when push came to shove.
So why did Star's actions result in Toffee's death, the resurrection of the MHC and the rebirth of magic, while Moon's actions resulted in Ludo overrunning the kingdom, imprisoning and not-executing people while the only people in a position to do anything about it sat and hid in a swamp?

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have an ugly fish, give requests pls

>>94490617
>while Moon's actions resulted in Ludo overrunning the kingdom, imprisoning and not-executing people
That's largely Star's actions too. It's Star who lost the book to Ludo, for example.

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>>94490490
I'm not talking about the effect on those monsters specifically, I'm talking about how monsters in general seeing her as the Queen who used forbidden dark magic to threaten and keep other monsters in line probably didn't have a great effect on race relations.

I'm not actually saying what she should have done, but not bringing a contract with Eclipsa into it might've been a good start. Also it seems a bunch of innocent monsters, i.e. not the ones in the army, probably suffered as a result of that too because it seems pretty likely that once she'd dealt with the army Moon didn't particularly care to get involved with the monsters who might've been screwed over by both sides.

>>94490558
No, magic was disappearing from the world along with the corruption. At best he would have been trapped in magic dimension with no recourse.
>formed himself out of the much
No. He resurrected himself and needed his fucking finger. He used the same powers as always except now we know what it looks like.

>>94490571
>possible to get the same result and save magic
We know that with hindsight and it was through both a 1:100000000000000000000000 chance as well as a hereto unknown deus ex machina technique that even surprised glossy a little. That's not an 'option' especially not when considering your next move. Star made another stupid call, got killed and the universe bailed her failure fuck, ass out of the fire again like it did with math magic when the universe itself told her she needed to start studying harder. When reality itself needs to bend backwards before you even begin to start studying math you have problems. It did the same thign here to a much larger extent.
Should Moon have planned for reality to just kill Toffee if Star was involved, Starcuck?

>>94490558
>Filename
Wait a minute you just reminded me, Toffee's interactions with Marco still haven't been elaborated upon. What is it that he exactly expected from Marco?

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>>94490686
Jackie and Janna
Freelance Police

>>94490739
>a hereto unknown deus ex machina technique
>dipping down

>Should Moon have planned for reality to just kill Toffee if Star was involved, Starcuck?
Pretty sure Star killed Toffee :^)

>>94490617
Because that's how the cookie crumbled.

Let me ask YOU a question. What if a postal worker goes nuts, buys a gun and shoots his next customer. Is he a psycho? Yes

What if he does it and it turns out she was a body snatcher, one of the first to invade earth, and because he shot her on a whim he's able to warn everyone and save the world? Is he a hero who made the right decision?

Now I'll ask you again? Is Star a hero or a complete fucking idiot? I think you'll get it right this time

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>>94490791
>when you finally cement your position and the losing side starts shitposting after posting paragraphs previously
It's a very good feeling, mate. Thanks for playing ^: )

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>>94490691
It was Moon who did not take the loss of the book to Ludo seriously, took her time getting it back after telling Star that she would handle it, and let her guard down around Ludo/Toffee giving him the chance to grab the wand back from her and drain her magic, giving him the strength to take out the rest of the Magic High Commission, giving him the strength to march on Butterfly Castle.

It was Moon who didn't take the chance to kill Toffee when she had it twenty-something years ago and nearly lost her family and kingdom for it.

>>94490856
I don't have much to say about that when you're bringing up a completely unrelated episode (in which the situation was also caused by magic, which would be impossible when it was dead) and using the "deus ex machina" excuse for something that was established beforehand across the season.

If you want me to go into more detail I can.

>>94490746
He watched Marco being with Star all the time, so probably he trough that he was a powerful ally, the most logic reason.

>>94490878
>It was Moon who did not take the loss of the book to Ludo seriously
>it was Moon who didn't clean up after Star fast enough
Nice

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>>94490739
>No, magic was disappearing from the world along with the corruption.
Are people actually this dumb

>He used the same powers as always except now we know what it looks like.
His body explicitly forms from black muck that comes out of the wand and engulfs Ludo. When Marco punches through him, we see his body is made of black muck and it's dripping off Marco's fist. When Star melts him, he melts into black muck.
Toffee's new body was not made of flesh and blood.

Why can't anyone fucking pay attention?

>>94490686
Draw Star as a butterflyfish, preferably a chaetodon species

>>94490856
Calling dipping down deus ex machina especially when in the episode it happens in was a direct callback to the metaphor in the first time it was mentioned (dipping down in a soup to get to the chunks) strikes me as more of you having a problem than anything else

>>94490895
>literal resurrection from death
>i-it's just dipping down bro
You can't go into detail. You can ramble unrelated, already refuted shit at my face. It was a complete and utter desu ex. Not only did she come back from death itself but created a second powerful spell to perma kill an immortal (something that only Eclipsa could do prior and she was reputably powerful and the spell had draw backs).
There is no better word for this narrative occurrence than Dues Ex Machina

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>>94490812
>Because that's how the cookie crumbled.
not an argument

>>94490916
If we're playing the "uhh these decisions don't count because the blame for getting into that situation falls on something earlier" game than the blame ultimately lies with Moon for not dealing with Toffee in their first encounter.

>Star is so irresponsible for not immediately going to her mother about the Book, doesn't she know how important it is?
>It's fine that Moon took fucking forever to do anything about the Book, even though it Ludo time to actually learn some magic and gave Toffee the opportunity to take control of him

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>>94490972
>Star vs the Forces of Evil is literally too deep for you
Holy shit how embarassing

>>94490694
>he Queen who used forbidden dark magic to threaten and keep other monsters in line
After the monsters had already broken the peace treaty and rebelled and murdered her mom, sure.

You're trying to spin it as if the monsters and mewmen would have been living in harmony and it's only Moon who started to threaten and oppress them, when that's not the case at all.

She didn't have much time to deliberate. Her mother had tried to go the peaceful co-existence peace treaty route, and had gotten murdered for it when she was supposed to just go to sign the peace treaty. It's not that surprising or unexpected that Moon decided to make sure that the monsters and their society won't be a threat to Mewni again, since obviously they couldn't be trusted to honor peace treaties.

Seriously try to imagine how it would have seemed to Moon. All that history of warfare with the monsters, playing Castle Defender, all that. Her mom trying to defend the kingdom from the impending war, trying diplomacy, and actually managing to enter talks and forge out a peace treaty with the Monster king. Possibly she talked about it to young Moon, about how despite your differences it's possible to solve things without having to fight.
Then she goes to finally sign the peace treaty, it's supposed to end the war. Instead Moon's mother gets murdered because half - HALF the monster army (and not just some guerrilla fanatic group) decided to fuck peace, they don't want peace, they want to conquer Mewni, and they rebel against their own peaceful rulers.

What sort of lesson is that for the new Queen, do you think?
Again, why exactly do you think that Moon managing to defeat that threat so soundly it stopped being a threat for good was "fucking up"?

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>>94490972
> It was a complete and utter desu ex. Not only did she come back from death itself
Well then that begs the question was she actually dead because that would imply Glossaryck is dead which I'm pretty sure he is not.

And there was foreshadowing from early in the season that easily leads up to this. The Mewberty not being fully manifest yet (even she herself says she has no idea how it happened) plus the metaphor of how dipping down even works clearly led to this

>to perma kill an immortal
Well technically he wasn't dead either. He probably would have regened if he hadn't been crushed

>>94490952
Plenty of characters dip down you facetious cunt. She did more than that. The internal lore and logic of the show has such feats as unheard of and unexpected. It was Deus Ex. You're a sad little Starcuck to say otherwise
It had narrative foreshadowing and was entertaining but it doesn't change what it is and what it means within the show's setting.

>>94491025
>foreshadowing in the narrative makes something not a deus ex machina
>it means Moon was a fuck up for not expecting Star to do something no one has ever done or imagined before
You sure showed me.

>>94491063
>Plenty of characters dip down
Other than Moon?
>you facetious cunt
Well now who's the one shitposting?
>It had narrative foreshadowing
Then it's not a deus ex is it?

>>94490878
So essentially it's Star's actions that led to a situation so shitty that Moon didn't manage to take care of that mess, that you're trying to paint as solely "Moon's actions"

Are you actually aware of how badly your waifufaggotry is clouding your judgement, or do you legit believe what you write

>It was Moon who didn't take the chance to kill Toffee when she had it twenty-something years ago
Right, it's because Moon can't see into the future and didn't want to release Eclipsa right away that everything went to shit, and Star had nothing to do with it, mhmmm

>>94491035
>And there was foreshadowing
Foreshadowing doesn't preclude it being an deus ex and it certainly doesn't affect the internal consistency of the character choices. Star is a fuck up that got bailed out by plot armour in the form of a deus ex machina and Moon made the smartest long term call.

>>94490972
Toffee's body was formed out of corrupted magic using his finger as a basis for reforming his body; Star possibly used the pure magic she restored through dipping down to reform her own body (notice how she's golden at first when reappearing). Technically neither one was really "dead" in this scenario so much as they were in some metaphysical space, but it looked like they both did a similar thing in opposing ways to return to reality.

I don't think she "created" a spell at all; she was tapping into the universe's supply of pure magic she'd just restored to destroy Toffee's body made of the antithesis of that, corrupted magic. By being made of corrupted magic Toffee had actually left himself open for any magic to be fatal, but he believed that'd be a non-issue through supposedly destroying all magic (or was just unaware of exactly what how this would affect him).

Anyone could have done that once magic was restored; the hard part was getting to that state in the first place.

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>>94490972
>literal resurrection from death
She was in the same place Toffee was.
Toffee wasn't dead, else Eclipsa's contract would have triggered.
Their bodies were destroyed but their spirits were sent to "hobo stew", the source of magic.

She just dipped down and ripped her way through dimensions back to Mewni.
Something she had done before.

>>94491135
>Foreshadowing doesn't preclude it being an deus ex
But it does. Deus ex implies that it comes from literally nowhere. If we're admitting that foreshadowing was indeed in the story then it stops being deus ex. If this was the very first time we were seeing Mewberty or dipping down, then maybe I could agree but it's not. It's not even the second or third time we're seeing either of those things.

And again, I think this all hinges on you thinking Star was actually physically dead which, as Glossaryck would say, I think is a little insulting. I don't know where she was but if Glossaryck was there, I'm pretty sure she was not dead either.

>>94491105
>then it's not a dues ex machina
Did you expect her to die and be ressurected? To pull an immortal slaying spell out of her ass while in a divine form? No? It's Deus Ex. Dipping down had some foreshadowing but not to the magnitude or context that we got. It's retrospectively noted. I saw people as they watch the opener go back and realise about the original Glossy scene. None thought to it before the cauldron. You can try and act like Moon should have known, that this impossible to predict circumstance should have been accounted for but you only look like more of a starcuck.

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>>94491162
>yfw thid has lasting effects in the series
>certain locations begin to fuse together
>bits and pieces start to either pop into one dimension, or just fall from the sky
>climactic battle takes place at the literal end of the universe

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>>94491111
>So essentially it's Star's actions that led to a situation so shitty
Nope, it all goes back to Moon.

>Right, it's because Moon can't see into the future and didn't want to release Eclipsa right away that everything
Explain to me how Moon taking a huge risk by tying together the defeat of Toffee to the release of Eclipsa, rather than exploring the other better options than she had, is somehow different and more justified than Star taking a huge risk by using the Whispering Spell to confront Toffee, rather than exploring the other better options that you claim she had.

>>94491224
u play 2much dark souls

>>94491162
>She was in the same place Toffee was
Wrong. Toffee fucks he up and she appears somewhere else. Glossy is there and he has no idea where they are. Glossy knows about being in the wand/magic sea. They aren't there. Stop speed watching.

>she just dipped down and ripped through dimensions
That would have been a sight better but that WASN'T what happened. She reconstructed the want from within, appeared in a deific state and used a spell stronger than eclipsa's without any of the draw backs.

>>94491222
>Did you expect her to die and be ressurected?
I don't know why you keep thinking she was actually totally dead.

>None thought to it before the cauldron
That's why it's called a callback. It's a mark of good writing and not treating the audience like an idiot. Did you want her to have an extensive flashback of that episode?

>You can try and act like Moon should have known, that this impossible to predict circumstance should have been accounted for but you only look like more of a starcuck.
I'm not even the one arguing you about that.

>>94487595
Silver-blue hair and cute diamonds rather than whore's hearts.

>>94491162
I took it to be the dimension within the wand's star.
She didn't die when the piece of the star was destroyed because both halves are connected, which was how Toffee was able to corrupt it.

I could have just completely misinterpreted that, though.

>>94491224
>>certain locations begin to fuse together
>>bits and pieces start to either pop into one dimension, or just fall from the sky
>Mewni fuses with Earth dimension
>Hell literally gets fused onto Earth's surface in a place like Vegas
>FInal Battle against Godsaryck
>takes place in literally every area fused together

>>94491135
>Foreshadowing doesn't preclude it being an deus ex

Yes it fucking does, holy shit. A deus ex machina is by definition, something outside of the story. If it was hinted at beforehand or makes logical sense for existing despite not being brought up before then it is not a deus ex machina. Stop abusing literary terms that you are too stupid to understand.

>>94491280
>Toffee fucks he up and she appears somewhere else. Glossy is there and he has no idea where they are. Glossy knows about being in the wand/magic sea. They aren't there.
Then why do you think she was 100% totally dead? Even Glossaryck doesn't think they were dead.

>and used a spell stronger than eclipsa's
I mean Toffee didn't actually die from the spell itself. He got his flesh burned off but he was still alive

>>94491285
>I'm not even arguing about that
Then what are you arguing about you irreverent piece of shit? I'm not looking to bicker with spastics about unrelated imaginary disputes. I'm helping Starcucks understand Moon's position as the right one and, as usual, Star's as the wrong one.

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>>94491262
Don't really play vidya much anymore, on account of work and such. But honestly, I think that'd make for a nice shift in status quo (adding to already big shifts we've seen so far).

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>>94491033
"Fucking up" in that apparently things didn't change or possibly got worse for monsters in general, as in the ones outside the army just trying to live their lives, as a result. Sure, there's no war now, but now there are a bunch of monsters who aren't targeting Mewmans and probably never were who are struggling to survive because Moon doesn't give a fuck. Her reaction then could be understandable, but now she's had a couple decades of peacetime to maybe reevaluate how this is affecting the entirety of her lands.

Not impossible for another group of monsters to lead some other uprising nowadays because the queen isn't going to do shit about their living conditions and in fact is incredibly opposed to the concept entirely.

>>94491338
>Then what are you arguing about you irreverent piece of shit?
Okay first of all, why are you getting so mad. No need for insults over a chldren's cartoon

Second, I only came into the conversation to argue the point about Star coming back to not be a deus ex machina. You, for some reason, think it is while also admitting there was narrative foreshadowing (which disqualifies it from being deus ex by the way). You also think Star actually physically died for real which is completely ridiculous

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>>94491222
>Did you expect her to die and be ressurected?
She didn't actually die and wasn't resurrected.
Being blown up by the Whispering Spell destroyed her physical body, but her spirit was still "alive."
This is not my sematics, it is the internal logic of the show: Toffee was not considered dead when his body was destroyed beyond the point of regenerating by the Whispering Spell, else Eclipsa's contract would have triggered then.

>To pull an immortal slaying spell out of her ass while in a divine form?
She did not have an "immortal slaying spell." She did not cast a spell at all, she just blasted him with pure, raw magic and melted his ass. It didn't kill him.

>Dipping down had some foreshadowing but not to the magnitude or context that we got
My New Wand!:
>"Imagine the universe as this big old cauldron, and magic is the bubbly stew inside, and your wand is the spoon. Now the wand can only skim the surface of the hobo gravy, watery and brown. But if you want to get to the chunks, you've got to dip down."
>We find out that the source of magic is a literal murky sea with chunks of magic floating in it
>The wands are connected to it directly, skimming the surface to pull some magic
>Star literally "dips down" by diving after one of the last chunks of magic
I don't know how much fucking clearer they could have made it for you without Glossaryck fucking turning to the camera and narrating to you exactly what was happening.

>>94491325
If you foreshadow someone being a profession skeet shooter that doesn't make them picking up an alien blaster rife out of their backpack and mowing down pursuers within the expectations of the story. Shooting was foreshadowed and shooting was the vehicle of the deus ex not that shooting itself was the dues ex.
>ressurects
>golden form unlike mewberty form
>super spell that can permanently damage an immortal
Yeah I think that was all pretty well foreshadowed with dipping down. Sure man. Yeah. Dipping down happened. She's Franklin Richards now. Don't complain or say it wasn't expected. Just don't.

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>>94491135
>constant foreshadowing, buildup, and reinforcement of stars potential of being the strongest butterfly
>she dips down deeper than anyone else
>"oh wow this is some deus ex bullshit"

i mean we are told and shown how strong she is and show. she makes up spells on the fly constantly instead of studying some, casually made and casts a spell to stop time, she has manipulated spells in unusual ways, and almost wrecked spacetime just because she didnt feel like doing math. most of the things star does is usual to what she is suppose to do, but the viewer is so use to seeing it all the time as some crazy silly ride.

>>94491438
essentially, she is the first sorceress in a long family of wizards.

>>94491421
Hey, I tried to describe what seemed to have happened. Don't think it was an "immortal-killing spell" at all, just pure magic, and that the golden form is a direct result of being in the source of the golden pure magic, meaning it's unlikely she'll ever reach that state again.
>>94491147

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>>94491280
>Glossy is there and he has no idea where they are.
>"Well, if you're dead, then I'm dead. And if you're calling me dead, I find it... well, I find it a little insulting, frankly."

>used a spell stronger than eclipsa's
She didn't use any spell and it didn't kill Toffee.

>>94491374
The nature of her death is intentionally ambiguous however, on the topic of deus ex see:
>>94491421
It's a measure of degree. It was to be a reasonable expectation. Saying she can dip down (use magic without her wand that is a bit stronger than normal) does not suddenly make all her feats foreshadowed. It makes dipping down foreshadowed. They foreshadowed the means to an unreasonable end.

>>94491421
>ressurects
Again, she did not "ressurect". We use that around here as a catch all term but she was not actually 'dead'. Glossaryck clearly was aghast at the idea of thinking they were. Plus it would involve thinking Glossaryck was dead in the first place which he obviously is not

>golden form unlike mewberty form
Okay now I think you're just being intentionally obtuse. That's pretty obviously supposed to be her complete form since the first Mewberty we saw wasn't the full one

>super spell that can permanently damage an immortal
>permanently damage
Nigga, how can you even confirm that? He got his flesh melted off and then got crushed 10 seconds later. He would have obviously just regened if he was left alone. By the way, I like how you switched from saying Toffee was definitely killed by Star to "Permanently damaged"

>>94491476
>harmed an immortal
>which is no more or less than what Eclipsa's did
>without curse bullshit as a draw back
It was deus ex. A fun one. I don't dislike it. The only reason I brought it up was because you can't say Star's brash tactics were right just because she plot armoured her way out of shit.

>>94490898
Idk, that seen with the suit and the mirror really seemed like foreshadowing for something.
Course it could just be Nefcy fucking with us.

>>94491316
The wands are connected to the source of magic, but it's not inside of them. It's natural for Star to assume that "He's inside the wands" but it doesn't seem to be exactly accurate. Toffee was affecting magic all throughout Mewni, not just the wands.
When Star comes back, she just steps out of nowhere in space next to the wand, she doesn't ooze out of it like Toffee or anything. The wand is just a conduit for magic, which comes from its wielder, which comes from the source.

>>94491483
>The nature of her death is intentionally ambiguous
How?

Star freaks out about thinking she's 'totally dead', Glossaryck says "If you're dead then I'm dead which frankly I find a little insulting" clearly showing he's not that stressed about the situation. Also again, and I have to reiterate this, thinking Star died for real also implies Glossaryck died for real which is ridiculous

>They foreshadowed the means to an unreasonable end.
There are three key elements that led up to this
-Mewberty
-Dipping down and the metaphor for dipping down with the soup
-Baby saying she could be as strong as Eclipsa. You forgot about that last one didn't you? For all your talk about an "Eclipsa-level spell", it slipped your mind that she was confirmed to have the potential of Eclipsa which she showed

Also, you'd have a lot more of a point to stand on if Star had permanently stayed in that super Mewberty mode or knew how to control it at all but she even says she has no idea how that happened.

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>>94491469
pretty much huh. "fuck you casul int/dex build mom, im going cha/str!"

>>94491534
Not that anon, but I think at that moment Toffee was less "immortal" than he'd ever been: still with his regenerative powers, but now incredibly vulnerable to any magic at all due to being made largely of its corrupted form. Which wouldn't caused any problems if all magic was indeed gone, but.

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>>94491534
>harmed an immortal
Anything can hurt Toffee, Rasticore and the other lizards. They just recover, eventually. Rasticore got disintegrated and it's taking him a while, but he'll be back.
Wait, anon, I thought you said the "spell" "killed" Toffee? Were you wrong?

>>94491496
>her complete form
Ah we head canon now

>how can you confirm that
Because he got murdered after sustaining that damage. Damage he never recovered from something that doesn't occur to immortals.
>b-but they crushed him
Wow, man. I guess that was their weakness all along. They should have just crushed all the Lizards. I guess Moon really was an idiot.

>correcting semantics invites passive aggressive jabs
That permanent damage is what killed him if we're honest but it's like pushing shit up a drain pipe with you 'people'

>>94491421
>If you foreshadow someone being a profession skeet shooter that doesn't make them picking up an alien blaster rife out of their backpack and mowing down pursuers within the expectations of the story. Shooting was foreshadowed and shooting was the vehicle of the deus ex not that shooting itself was the dues ex.

That's a shitty analogy that doesn't even make any sense. A deus ex machina is something that is outside of the story, not a le epic twist that you didn't see coming. The ship arriving at the end of Lord of the Flies was a deus ex machina because it had nothing to do with the plot of little boys killing each other on a deserted island. Star dipping down is not a deus ex machina because she did it before and its an established part of the setting. Its not an element that's outside of the narrative.

I know you are too stupid to use phrases that you didn't encounter outside of TVTropes but deus ex machina has a specific meaning and you misusing it just hurts your argument.

>>94491231
>exploring the other better options than she had
which were?
Her mom had just died, Toffee seemed invincible (he'd just killed her mom despite her magic ffs), her council was fighting itself instead of giving her any advice, Glossaryck was just crying and refused to give advice - and turned the book to Eclipsa's page.

Moon went to Eclipsa to ask for a spell that'd help her defeat something immortal. She got it, and halfway to casting it realised that it'd corrupt her and also release Eclipsa - so she managed to defeat Toffee without completing her deal with Eclipsa, and then proceeded to defeat the monster threat extremely thoroughly. Monsters defeated, kingdom safe, Eclipsa still imprisoned.

You're trying to find anyone else to blame than Star, but if you're playing that "it's always the fault of the one before" game then it's not Moon's fault either, it's Glossaryck's and her Mother's for both failing to guide her and also for letting things escalate into a war.


But Star still fucked up and the buck stops at her, because she fucked up way worse. She wasn't forced into fucking up through being in a desperate situation where no-one gave her advice and the fate of her entire kingdom was at stake. She fucked up because she wilfully IGNORED the advice she was given because she didn't wanna, thinking about consequences bores her, and planning "isn't her thing". People warned her about her actions, and she callously ignored that - and everything went to shit.

So, again, trying to be all "Everything bad was Moon's actions and it's Star's actions that saved the day, she did nothing wrong" is bullshit waifufaggotry, because Star fucked up way worse and way more times, and then refused to learn anything and kept fucking up in the same ways even more.
Moon fucked up a bit, but she succeeded in saving her country. Star died and doomed her country and bloodline and family. It's just an unforeseen miracle that brought her back.

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>>94491622
>Damage he never recovered from something that doesn't occur to immortals.
They can regenerate as much as an arm in a few seconds but getting their whole body wasted takes a lot more time, as again was previously established. More than two minutes.

>>94491413
>Being blown up by the Whispering Spell destroyed her physical body, but her spirit was still "alive."
Yes, after which her spirit drowned in the nonmagical sea, dying.

>>94491605
>eventually
We had just been given a scene to show how quickly he recovers. The process begins almost instantly. After the blast there were no changes. If he is dead it is because of that spell.

>>94491590
>less immortal
Head canon. I can understand where you're coming from but we both know that's loose tangential interpretation to justify events as opposed to a fact of proceedings.

>>94491622
>Because he got murdered after sustaining that damage. Damage he never recovered from something that doesn't occur to immortals.
Explain Rasticore then? He's still coming back from a single limb

>>94491583
>also implies Glossaryck died for real which is ridiculous
And why is that head canon boi?

>>94491668
>which were?
For starters, maybe considering making use of the guy whose explicit purpose for existence is to deal with big evil threats by locking them away for all eternity rather than killing them.

>>94491732
I think the better question is why are you so adamant to think Star was actually dead? Because she said so? She didn't even know what was going on. If Glossaryck doesn't think they're dead, I think I'll take his word for it. Granted I don't know where they were but if Glossaryck was being chill about it, then I can't see it as actually having been physically 100% deceased.

>>94491727
Care to explain why everyone there considered the matter solved?

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>>94491702
Why don't you watch this show before arguing about it, anon? >>94491681

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>>94491496
>We use that around here as a catch all term but she was not actually 'dead'
According to the crew she was in "purgatory", which kind of implies dead to me

>>94491702
Not headcanon, or at least if it is then everything in the show that's shown but not directly spelled out is, because I'm arguing it's what was presented visually.

We see some of the corrupted magic leave the space Star's in and form Toffee's body. When Marco punches him, his "flesh" is black rather than the flesh/blood shown before on him and Rasticore.

Just like enough corrupted magic kills the golden magic, the reverse is also shown happening later with the golden magic taking out the corrupted magic at the sanctuary's wellspring and Star's spell on Toffee's body.

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>>94491693
>Yes, after which her spirit drowned in the nonmagical sea, dying.
Prove it

>>94491668
I agree with everything you said until
>Moon fucked up a bit, but she succeeded in saving her country. Star died and doomed her country and bloodline and family. It's just an unforeseen miracle that brought her back.

First of all, Star didn't die and I like the theory that this was all part of Glosseryck's plan. We can't really trust anything he says since he's shown that he'll lie in order to get what he wants but we can assume a few things. One, he never betrayed Star because his actions all ended up helping her and he says as much in "purgatory". Two, Glosseryck wants to bring out Star's full potential and forcing her in a life or death situation did just that.

>>94491693

That whole place was metaphorical. Glosseryck said that they weren't dead.

>>94491738

Time Out Guy is a jobber that isn't that fucking strong. If he was a viable option someone would have brought it up or he would have done something useful earlier in the war. The way everyone treated him and the way he treated himself made it seem like he was not some kind of super weapon that could solve all their problems. Just look at how poorly he fought against Ludo/Toffee.

>>94491779
Her magical avatar, 'soul' or what have you got drowned.
I assumed she was in some kind of between world. Like, on the way out.

>>94491814
That he was made of goop is visually represented. That he was weaker is bullshit, he was throwing people around like they were nothing. Even walking Moon into the ground. The relation between the blast and his new form is entirely head canon.

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>>94491702
>We had just been given a scene to show how quickly he recovers. The process begins almost instantly.
if Storm The Castle is anything to go by, he has to put mental and/or physical effort in order to regeneration to kick in.
Even after Marco punched him through, it took exactly 4 seconds to start regrowing.
Safe to assume it's neither instant nor automatic, and the blast left him too exhausted to regen shit at the spot

>>94491797
This is helpful

>>94491825
Not him but, check it above

>>94491797

That's not "according to the crew". That's one person telling another person to come up with their own interpretation. And song titles aren't definitive, especially something like Purgatory, which can be metaphorical.

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>>94491797
>According to the crew she was in "purgatory"
According to the crew, the scene reference art for that scene was labeled "Purgatory", fitting for the dark, barren landscape and the cleansing flames that Star experiences when she Dips Down.
Of course, story and art labels are solely for the reference of the crew and have zero bearing on canon, certainly not compared to the events of the show which both affirm that people who are destroyed by the Whispering Spell do not actually die, and that Glossaryck himself who knows more about everything than everyone clearly doesn't think that they're dead.

>>94491738
I really think that if Rhomby was strong enough to just encase an entire army in crystal just like that Moon's Mom would have made use of him already

>>94491856
>life or death situation
>not even a little regeneration
>just, fuck it, I guess I'll die then
Cool

>>94491844
I don't mean weaker as in physically incapable of doing stuff, clearly that's not true, I mean weak specifically to magic in its purest form, which Star used, due to literally being made of the reverse.

>>94491914
That is head canon, though. The logic your using could also go like this:
His form is stronger than pure magic due to being made of the reverse. Let us not forget that goop had just finished dominating pure magic after all. I don't even disagree with you, but it's head canon.

>>94491844
>That he was weaker is bullshit
Not physical strength, weaker regeneration.
It's been specifically stated that "lizards" regeneration is biological. Toffee lost his biological flesh-and-blood form when he reformed himself out of the magic ooze. He could "regenerate" damage like you would expect something made of ooze could, but being nearly vaporized and having his skull crushed was too much for his new body.

You know what would be neat, or at least what I think would be neat? If it turned out that Star's new body is made of pure magic, and it gets increasingly unstable as the series goes on.

>>94491702
>>94491856
Yeah, regeneration is voluntary and happens when a Septarian actively tries to do it, rather than at once.

He isn't bothered that Moon took off his finger in the seconds after the blast and "have you learned nothing" etc., only after he tries and fails to grow it back.

>>94491892
No, not one person giving their own interpretation, that's a crewmember telling what the scene was labeled as while they were creating the art.
I'm fairly sure that the bg artists don't just pull labels like that out of their ass - there's discussion about what's going on in the scene with the writers, and if they're briefed that the scene is supposed to be "in purgatory", that' what they'll label it with. It's quite telling, of at least what the crew imagined the situation as.

>song titles
literally what the fuck are you talking about dude

>>94491974
But then what about this:
>>94491955
You're peers refute you. If he's using an entirely new system, which if the biological lore is true he must be, then that's irrelevant and the 4 second refractory time is the only standard we have to go by

>>94491952
There was pure magic than his body as a result of Star's spell, and more corrupted magic during the corruption scenes. It seems whichever one dominates can cancel out the other.

It seems like equal headcanon to say that's not what all those scenes were implying, when pretty much any other interpretation would just be totally random.

>>94491908
one could argue he was trying to regenerate during the blast's duration, and that prevented him from being obliterated without a trace. Toffee was pierced and dismembered with relative easy earlier, he's not very dense.

>>94491979
>I'm fairly sure that the bg artists don't just pull labels like that out of their ass
Does that mean Star's super mode is officially "God-Mode Star"? I mean that's what the crew said

>>94486098
Why did Toffe turn his back without killing them, again?

>>94492015
It could be argued but if that were the case why was no regeneration present afterwards.

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>>94491551
i'm pretty sure that would be played for the blood moon ball, it doesn't seems so friendly in Marco's dreams and if the live chats are canon, then Adam teased us about Marco feeling odd since the bmb.

i hope, i don't want the moon to be just a butthurt shipper.

>>94491856
>Safe to assume it's neither instant nor automatic
There must be some element of passive regeneration for Rasticore to be coming back from just his hand, but it's far slower.
You're right, in that we see both Toffee and Rasticore regenerate their arm quickly, but both times they clearly make an effort to do it. Toffee just lays on the floor for a while with a stunned look on his face, like "did she really just fucking blow my arm off right away" and doesn't bother healing it until he gets back up.

>>94491908
Regenerating from having your whole fucking body melted down to the bone is a lot more effort than just a hole in your chest.
Toffee was also clearly losing his fucking shit after having his decades of planning completely undone in the span of a minute.

>>94492039
because as i said in >>94491856 he gave his all to withstand the blast and had no stamina left afterwards

>>94491896
>affirm that people who are destroyed by the Whispering Spell do not actually die
Right, but people aren't really claiming that Star actually died immediately as a result of the whispering spell (I think) - she died after drowning in the sea of neutered magic once Toffee had left.

>Glossaryck himself who knows more about everything than everyone clearly doesn't think that they're dead
But Glossaryck also burned away with the book, which Toffee seemed to think would kill him. He also says that he doesn't know what that place is as he's never been there before, which makes sense as he's never died before.

So imo they died, but just not in a fully permanent way, and got stuck in a kind of limbo - dead, or definitely not alive, but not properly dead so that it's still kinda possible to return. However, definitely not alive either, and notably deader than when being blasted off and sent into the magic sea in the non-place.

>>94492004
>We have to assume that refilling a hole in his chest should take as much time and effort as recovering from being fucking Terminator'd
Are you well?

>>94492004
Any regeneration would be impossible once that ability is overpowered enough.

It could still happen at the same speed in this form, but this form also would be less equipped to handle that kind of attack and the regeneration would eventually be overtaxed.

>>94492013
Not really. What we know is:
>most magic phenomena is 'pure'
>toffee can control and create or transform corrupt magic
>corrupted 'goop' magic kills of pure magic
>star purifies magic during the deus ex
While there are interpretations available nothing is solid certainly not 'whichever there is more of can cancel the other out'

>>94489385
>But I feel like this has become one of the most overanalyzed 'popular' cartoons on here.
Steven Universe has it beat by that metric

>>94492086
>which Toffee seemed to think would kill him

If the movie proved anything it's that Toffee doesn't know as much as he thinks he does when it comes to Glossaryck's abilities

>>94492085
That's a VERY specific amount of endurance there, anon. A whole blast but not a moments more?

>>94492028
Not officially, but it does reflect rather accurately what sort of mood the crew was going for. I mean just resurrecting oneself and turning into a never before seen golden mode with insanely powerful blasts that don't need an incantation, just raw power - that's pretty godlike, so it's an accurate depiction

>>94491979
There's clear thematic elements of "Purgatory" in that scene, with Star finally realizing her potential by dipping down into the "stew", with her hands engulfed in flames.
But that's not really evidence that she was literally dead, especially over the word of the one character in the show who ought to know what was really happening.

>>94492105
In that sense the pure magic was still killing/purifying the corrupted magic during the scene with Star's spell, so it doesn't seem like a deus ex machina when the same thing was shown with the wellspring.

>>94492090
What I said is that the process should begin, and I have stuck to that statement, nothing has changed. There wasn't even small repairs being made or even feeble, fruitless attempts as I recall

>>94492086
If both Star and Glossaryck were capable of experiencing sensations, talking to each other, and even performing great feats of magic to cross dimensions, they don't seem to have been dead in any meaningful sense of the word.

alright here's a really stupid sounding idea: Glossaryck cannot "die," whenever a new book is formed he returns, he seemed pretty chill about being burnt up and didnt really care that Ludo threw the book in the fire

>>94492105
>>94492178
*and would also make Toffee not strictly "immortal" anymore if the corrupted magic he's made of can't withstand this process

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>>94492146
that's how giving it all works, and that's how life and death situations work.
imagine that you have to withhold a huge cement block, or else it will crush you. you complete the task, then once the block is removed, you collapse on the ground and can't move an inch, because all your strengh is gone, all your adrenaline is gone, and some of your bones are broken. kinda like that

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>>94489385
>not being autistic
>not shit talking as hard as possible to rile people up
This is the most invested Star Vs discussion in a long time.
>character motivations
>lore and history
>internal logic and phenomena
Not a single Sky or Table in sight. Waifu trash generals are comfy but can you blame me for spicing things up every so often

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this is unironically the best Star thread we've had in ages

So what happens in Mewny if a prince is born?
Does the royal family just disown them because men can't inherit the throne?

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Can we at least all agree on this?

>>94492343
Where do you think monsters came from?

>>94492178
>>94492208
Depends on how you view things. If toffee can corrupt then his personal pile of goop should remain unaffected, leaving him immortal. Regardless of that just purifying all magic at once is still deus as fuck

>>94490946
>he melts into black muck
so he can be killed by heat

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>>94492379
Nothing can withstand the heat of a Star

>>94492356
She says, as she watches Marco fucking Jackie.

>>94492270
>you collapse on the ground and can't move an inch
That is because you believe you are safe. He wouldn't release after the blast while still in combat. That system would stay engaged until victory or escape. You're using a physiological phenomena (incorrectly) as an analogy for magical regeneration (as it was discerned and agreed upon by other posters given Lizard regen is purely bio and he isn't Lizard at that point but rather goop)

>>94492398
it's like nano bots

>>94492398
I hate this Star. It feels so undeserved.

>>94492343
Moon has a brother, so I'd assume it's just like irl Earth kingdoms of old where only males could inherit titles and daughters weren't considered heirs, combined with some magical shit that probably assures that the firstborn is a daughter. At least it seems that only daughters inherit the cheek marks, so maybe if a queen would only have sons it'd lead to a horrible crisis and some off-branch Butterfly girls with the cheekmarks would become the main heirs

>>94492364
Not so weird when in the literal source of magic to begin with + having some degree of inherent magic. Unclear how corruption happens but having magic in the first place would seem to be an advantage.

Seems like Toffee would have given up his abilities to corrupt other magic upon leaving the magic source. No longer linked to wands, etc.

>>94492343
Why? Why not just treat them as any second born daughter. They are irrelevant to rule and will never get a wand. They can just fuck around in court and wait for the next generation to take them

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>>94492431
>nano bots
Its nanomachines son

>>94492419
>>94492356
Can you faggots unironically piss off to the other Star thread

>>94492356
I-is star trying to dominate Marco? The King of Flames? The Dangerous Ally of Diablo? The Safe Man?

>>94492453
>having some degree of inherent magic
That isn't how this universe works. All magic draws on the well. Dipping is just a way of accessing without the wand/accessing more personally and on occasion effectively.

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>>94492356
oh fug thanks for the advice

>>94492504
Didn't use the right term, but I mean being more closely linked/attuned to it the way the Butterflys are. Cheeks lighting up when near the uncorrupted magic, for example

>>94492478
It's over. I tried to keep things fiesty but we only barely scrapped 260. We had a good run and deliberated and agreed on a few things. Like Toffee's regeneration being different while in goop form.
And to a lesser extent by virtue of no longer being refuted: that Moon did absolutely NOTHING wrong in the S3 opener and waiting was the right call.

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>>94492459
Nah they're married off as political pawns and get some dowry money but will never actually inherit anything significant

Heartrude in Game of Flags seemed to be a rather spoiled little shit, at least.
I hope we see him again

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>>94492426
>That is because you believe you are safe.
you were never beaten or exhausted to the point where you can'tg act even despite knowing that you have to? if so, i'm happy for you anon. but it's a very real phemonenon, and it looks exactly like what happened to Toffee.
when the all-knowing suave warlord is reduced to cursing and swearing, you just can tell he had nothing left in him.

>he isn't Lizard at that point but rather goop
that's still in the process of being debated right there and then. he recovered Marco's donut using his usual lizard flesh. His state after Star's attack can either be his 'real' form, or it can be just his skin melted off.

i mean, he was rebuilt by corrupted magic. which still may count as a form of magic, right? we don't know for certain if he stayed composed of it as it is, or the corrupted magic merely gave him a brand new organic body, after all

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Are Star's wings still cute and small when she's not using them or are they permanently grown up and golden now?

>>94492574
MOON DID EVERYTHING WRONG

YOU DIDN'T WIN JUST BECAUSE YOU STOPPED ARGUING

>>94492565
They have affinity for it, true. Still fucking retarded that corruption took like a year or half or something but star can deus ex it in a second or so.
>muh dip down
Yeah yeah yeah, I get it, she's Franklin Richards, can do anything. Such a high stakes show when God is fellating the main character when the main character isn't playing at God

>>94488826
>So when Star blew herself up, did she think there would be a way to somehow get out of the wand after doing what she planned to do?

The fact that she apologized to Marco and Moon, and was hesitant to tell Ludo the truth about what was about to happen, indicates that she was fully aware she was trying to pull a Tarrlok style murder-suicide.

>>94492629
>he recovered Marco's donut using his usual lizard flesh
He didn't. His innards were black goop, and there's even black goop dripping off Marco's fist.

>>94492504
What about the Demons? or the Ponyheads? We didn't hear anything from either of them lamenting that their magic is disappearing. Tom also doesn't need to use a wand for his magic, he seems to be able to make shit happen just by willing it, save for some other serious incantantions like resurrecting an actor who's been dead for decades with his personality and memories still intact.
Do the demons have a different kind of magic?

>>94492642
>MOON DID EVERYTHING WRONG
Kept the kingdom afloat for 14+ years

I hope Star has a secret brother who wants to claim the throne from her.

>>94492574
>hat Moon did absolutely NOTHING wrong in the S3 opener and waiting was the right call.
Hear, hear!

>>94492642
Nah you were all argued into the ground, you don't win just because you refuse to accept superior point and keep on parroting your views

>>94489441

Real talk though, your pic is one of my favourite moments in the special (i.e. Moon accepting the fact that Star has to grow up).

Other favourites include Moon's [EXTERNAL SCREAMING] and the mime

>>94492629
>he survived the blast by adrenal-tier survive or die energy
>h-he's just exhausted
You can't cite physiology and then get upset when it bites you in the ass. A lot of severely fucked up animals can pull something out of their ass when push comes to shove

>>94492642
>stopped arguing
I have argued this entire fucking thread. Don't get mad at me that more starcucks are upset that she won by deus ex machina and can't care if she's a fucking retard compared to Moon

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When will Star desu X machine Marco's pOnOs into her vagOOO?

>>94492775
Speak the kings english

>>94492706
River sired a half-bird, half-man when he was up in the clouds.

>>94492644
Could be possible to manage the speed of it. If Toffee didn't want to remain trapped there forever, then corrupting all magic instantaneously wouldn't accomplish anything he'd actually be there to experience. Would've had to space things out across the entire season just to get the pieces in place to be resurrected and ruin Moon, since he was depending on Ludo for most of it, while all Star would have to worry about would be restoring it as quickly as possible

>>94492694
Maybe that explains why Star was still able to use evil-looking magic even after everyone else's shorted out. She was tapping into the demon magic source.

>>94492694
Remember back to the earlier MHC episodes. All magic was going and dipping down is accessing The magic. If those things are magic rather than some other type of phenomena e.g perhaps Hecka's scissors are a magical instrument to create the physical/cosmic phenomena that is portals or that like Lizard regen ponies fly by some strange physiological method
Otherwise by all rights magic things like demons should have been feeling it too. For most of the show it was weakening. It wasn't until the very last moments of S3 that it got so bad Moon couldn't cast a spell properly. Keep in mind she was still gathering curse so magic wasn't completely gone

>>94492714
>>94492727
Star and Moon are BOTH retards. Moon ain't shit at magic and her most noteworthy accomplishment was performing a spell that was invented and even apparently carried out by someone else.

>>94492775
Never. The well of magic feeds on the tears of cucks and Star is now their Avatar. She is the Swamp Thing of the great sea of cucks.

>>94492727
>A lot of severely fucked up animals can pull something out of their ass when push comes to shove
Correct, but it can only work for that long. Even if one can survive his entire layer of skin burned off and remain conscious, doesn't nessessary mean they can put up a fight in such state.
there's limis, there's pushing the limits, and there's the point when you're finally done for good

>>94492722
Best moment was when Moon was embarrased about needing to poop

>>94492882
>moon is quite talented at magic
>she is a retard because she isn't as good as Franklin Richards
Okay, faggot

>>94492912
>that long
It works for a fair amount of time, usually. As long as it needs to or until they die, which for an immortal should be a moot point. How can he even get tired if he can regenerate himself. In fact, he's made of goop, he can't get tired, he has no physiology.

>>94491035
>Well then that begs the question was she actually dead because that would imply Glossaryck is dead which I'm pretty sure he is not.

Nah nigga, Glossaryck's dead. It's just that when you're the most powerful being on the Prime Material, being dead doesn't really matter.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

>>94492959
For all we know Moon's just average-good. Maybe dipping down at 19 is what the slow kids do

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>>94493068
>this was all part of his plan to ascend to godhood, while Star becomes the devil to his Jehovah
Simply pottery

>>94492959
>It works for a fair amount of time, usually
it varies wildly between species different species, and it varies even between different specimen. given the unclear nature of both him and the attack that hit him, we can't figure it out any further, unfortunately.
it's just that it'd be really weird of him to not do anything if he still could
and act so defeated if he had something left up his sleeve

>he has no physiology
he still had bones, which seemed to be made of some other texture rather than the rest of the goop. and his outer shell -skin, hair, claws -
looked exactly the same as he always was. apparently whatever he consisted of, at least tried to follow his organic mold

>>94493073
She can out perform the MHC in combat faggot. She is good. Not "I'll start forging dark magic" or "You must remember that I have at my internal demand every expertise known to our history. This is the fund of energy I draw upon when I address the mentality of war"

>>94493160
The bones are fucking weird, t//bh

>>94491590

Nah nigga, Glossaryck's spellbomb was just as powerful (or more so than) Eclipsa's Darkest Spell, which only makes sense.

The implication just kind of annoys me, that this is all just another phase of a cosmic being's masturbatory chess game.

>>94493121
It's this pic a remix cover or something. If it's not trash link a mewbba up

>>94493191
The MHC is mostly made of magic, they were already weakened by the fritz, and they kept getting their magic sucked. By comparison it wouldn't take as much of a toll on someone who's not a magical construct

>>94493289
Not true. Moon fought with magic it would retard her ability to a similar degree if not depower her before the others.

>>94493235
It's weird when you think about it too much, but at least the fact he seems to fuck with everyone equally makes it a bit better. As opposed to if Moon, Ludo, etc. did stuff entirely on their own and he just guided Star

Don't actually expect them to make him the villain but if they wanted to they pretty easily could

>>94492035
>Why did Toffe turn his back without killing them, again?

Crushing Moon's heart was part of his plan. The next step in his master plan was destroying magic, with minimum survivors.

>>94493235
>Glossaryck's
Glossaryck might have led Star to the magic but it was still Star's magic. She dipped down and drew out that power herself.

People need to stop comparing Star's "fuck you" beam to the Darkest Spell, or any spell. It wasn't a spell, it was just a beam of raw magic that melted him.
It didn't have a function or utility like the Darkest Spell did (to kill an immortal by permanently severing them from their heart).

>>94493191
>She can out perform the MHC in combat faggot.
The MHC fucking sucked at combat. Not even about powerlevels, their tactics were embarrassingly bad.

>>94493338
Moon had just gotten revived, everyone else was dead or dead enough.

>>94493366

This. The guidebook explains that whenever Star doesn't speak an incantation then its not a spell but a "blast", which is basically raw power and random effects.

>>94493366
>Star's magic
No one owns magic. It was her spell/technique sure maybe. However there was also the scene where he makes the magic ball of pudding. A golden ball not unlike the one found in the soup that Star used to Deus Ex

>>94493442
>deus ex

Stop using that term.

>>94493458
It was. Dipping down was fore shadowed but instantaneously purifying all magic, resurrecting, God-mode and immortal damaging super blasts with no repercussions ARE deus ex, faggot.
I could have ceded tearing her way out of purgatory given the hand through the spying spell but they decided, fuck that shit, and instead had her reconstruct through the wand. Deus as fuck, desu. Suck my nuts if you think that was foreshadowed to an extent that it wasn't.
I liked the scene and the opener. It was a good use of Deus Ex but man, you have to come to terms with things

>>94492857
>All magic was going and dipping down is accessing The magic.
But that's all Butterfly and Glossaryck magic. Yet we never saw Tom or Ponyhead make any reference to losing their powers (iirc) even though we saw Ponyhead at least twice after Page Turner, where the MHC was already having an emergency meeting because of the magic fritz. I'd have assumed that if it was affecting everyone so badly that Moon's magical constructions crumbled away days after Starcrushed, I'd assume that Ponyhead might have whined about it?

So maybe it's possible that there are different kinds of magic in the svtfoe verse? The Butterfly book/Glossaryck kind, and then the demons and ponyheads and who knows who else have other kinds?

>>94492398

NANDA KORE WA

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So did Star actually die and is just a magic reconstruction of herself with her memories?

>>94493543
The ancient lanterns disappeared too among other things. In the initial HMC episode they are talking about Magic, not our magic, daddy gloss' magic but MAGIC.

>>94493562
She actually died, but apparently there's stages in dying and before dying for good there's a kind of limbo where you can still return from if you happen to have insane magical power

>>94493348
>Don't actually expect them to make him the villain but if they wanted to they pretty easily could

If Glossaryck is the final villain, he's going to be a Sanger Zonvolt style villain. Literally just trying to make everyone stronger for some unintelligible purpose.

>>94493542
>no reprecussions
>eclipsa is released and star hasnt mastered this form yet, nevermind mewberty form

ig shig wiggy?