Umm, sweetie! Vulture doesn't represent the working cla

Except that Toomes IS ORIGINALLY FROM AND RISES OUT OF THE WORKING CLASS VIA ECONOMIC MOBILITY.

>owning a small business means you aren't working class
>being mad at a wealthy 1% business man for stealing your country BY LEVERAGING POLITICAL POWER WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT you don't have isn't a class dispute

>>94195883
I mean, they're half-right.

You can't argue that he's "the little guy" when he makes money off of selling weapons of mass destruction to street thugs.

He had his American dream stolen from him by Stark and his bullies.

>>94195914
He does it by doing exactly what Tony learned not to do in the first Iron Man. In fact, he's worse than Tony in terms of moral infraction. He's selling ill gotten gains to criminals.

>>94195928
He's the little guy before he gets his big break, and if he didn't have that one pick up bed full of fuel cells by sheer chance, he'd simply be financially ruined by Stark and damage control.

>>94195939
Sure, it's not like he doesn't have his fair share of reasonable grievances, but that doesn't make him a hero, not on its own. Nor does it excuse his supervillain night life.

His small business gets crushed by the man in the opening of the movie.

>>94195883
why do you give this person fucking attention at all?

>>94195950
Yes, that's why the point he's trying to make is that people are hypocticial and see him as a criminal yet view Stark as a hero even though he does the same.

Socialists are so fucking stupid

>>94196011
It's also important to note that the only reason Toomes' weapons are illegal while Stark's are legal is because Stark went to the government and preemptively made all supernatural and alien tech illegal to have, while Stark also created and co runs the government organization which manages it all. Toomes' impression is that the game is now rigged by the current largest player to prevent competition from popping up.

I thought Toomes was a decent villain because he went from "Decent blue collar working man wronged and fucked over" to "Spiteful monster who became what he loathed" over nearly a decade. He was opportunistic and driven into a corner, forcing his hand with the alien tech. He could have done any number of things with it but that he ultimately wound up selling weapons to killers indicates he long ago left behind his moral compass, which had been established at the beginning since he seemed sincere about caring for his workers.

He's not exactly super compelling but had understandable motivations. The author completely conflated one thing for another and is an idiot. How do you miss the point of a fucking MCU movie of all things?

>>94195883
Fuck small businesses for being mad at massive international corporations ruining their livelihoods

>>94195883
>an unimaginative use of alien technology
Unimaginative because it would be profitable?

>>94195883
>It's a plebbit/patreon of all fucking things thread
How did you even find this?

>>94195883
>his house is solidly upper middle class at least.
At least. A house like that anywhere in New York is over a million dollars. The guy wasn't quite 1% but he was nothing close to working class.

The working class in New York live in shitpit apartments - not 5/4s in the burroughs.

>>94196295
/r/gamerghazi

>>94195914
>ECONOMIC MOBILITY

Don't scare the communists anon. There's nothing communists fear more than people bettering their lives

>>94196036
stark never sold under the table and was surprised to learn that stane kept selling to terrorists, and gave up weapons altogether
the first thing he did with his iron man suit was to stop the people who were armed with those weapons

toomes willingly sold to criminals from the get-go and proliferates deadly weapons to the masses, at least stark only knowingly sold to the army

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#notallvultures

>>94196105
It's because the author is blinded by political agenda.

>>94196303
Did you people seriously miss the point that he was able to buy a super nice house because of his illegal dealings?

>>94195883
Isn't the point of the character that he started working-class and doesn't realise that he's already made it?

Isn't that the fatal flaw of the character?

Or is economic mobility, even that enabled by crime, just a lie now?

>>94195883
>threaten to spill the beans about your boss's illegal alien weapon deals to his wife
>wooooooow why did he kill that poor employee? ;_;

>>94196398
>stark never sold under the table
Toomes' weapons had to be sold under the table solely because of political interference BY Stark making his tech illegal.

>>94196598
I remember reading an article a couple years back about how most of America's upper class consider themselves middle class at best because they only compare themselves to the 1% and not the entire spectrum of wealth

>>94196642
>1%
MOST PEOPLE BITCHING ABOUT THE 1% ARE THE 1% AND ARE ACTUALLY BITCHING ABOUT THE .01% COMPOSED MOSTLY OF GLOBAL ELITE.

200k a year is high enough to get into the 1% in a lot of places.

>>94195883
tl;dr You can't be working class if you're successful, you can't be successful if you're working class.

>>94196674
>"if you pulled yourself up out of the working class you were never actually working class to begin with"

>>94196552
No, but he's still no working class hero by that logic, either. Just a criminal who decided to sell out his fellows and country for an improvement to his lifestyle.

I really liked the character. Still found sympathy for him - but I think he's just another guy who gave in to temptation.

>>94196742
Yeah, that's the point, though. He WAS a working class guy that got screwed over so he turned to a life of crime. The OP claims he was a working class character do begin with, as if his fancy house was something he obtained through regular, non-criminal means.

>>94196803
The OP claims he was never*

>>94196742
It depends what one means by hero.

He's no hero in that he doesn't go around helping the rest of his working men, but I can see why working-class dudes empathise for him. Same reason mafia dudes are popular with a lot of working-class people. They might be doing bad shit, but they're doing it on their own terms for their families. A lot of guys see that love and care for family above all else, even law, and can respect that.

>>94196803
You are right about that.

>>94196819
Yeah, he's definitely relatable. That's what makes the character so compelling to me.

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>he's working class
>he's not working class

Who gives a shit?

>>94196857
The working class, I'd wager.

>>94196862

Who cares about flyover state retards?

>>94196880
You will when Social Security ceases to exist because it's a system built on perpetual unlimited growth.

>>94196880
Anyone who wants goods and produce, I'd wager.

>>94196880
And that's why you lost the election, cuckaroo.

>>94196036
>impression
But that's exactly what it is. That may not have been Tony's intent but that's exactly what he's doing. He rigged the game so that he is the only one who can benefit. Toomes has every right to be pissed.

I feel like if you took generalizations away from a good number of arguments, they'd fall apart. Generalizations and grouping of social groups instead of focus on individuals and specific instances is such a gimmie. It's like, "Oh, prove it? Nah, I've got these percentages and odds".

Is that invalid?

> linking to a patreon
> linking to pleddit
> linking to the gamerghazi sub
> all this bait
vulture isn't in the 1% just because he runs a small business

is he not homeless? yes, but that doesn't mean he's an elitist. being in the 99% means you don't have tony stark money. you could be a millionaire today and not be in the 1%, most people don't realize how really really rich the 1% is

he even says in the beginning he had to take out loans for the trucks & equipment, that implies he has no real savings and liquidity and like most people live off credit/borrowing economy

vulture was based

>>94195950
>Ill gotten
I wasn't aware the government muscling in to claim all the wrecked alien tech for themselves, aided by and paying a billionaire who helped make the mess was "rightly gotten"
He's stealing something that had no owner before...that's like making something useful from trash and then the trash company wants to claim royalties

And as a side note, Toomes was selling shit to low level criminals for eight years and no one noticed? That should be enough to tell you that his actions only augmented existing crime, not created new ones

He's really not that different from Tony except Tony was able to stop dealing weapons because he had the capital earned to diversify his portfolio. Capital he obtained from dealing weapons

Toomes doesn't even deal exclusively in weapons, he has anti grav tools and climbing gloves and even the weapon type stuff was use for shit like steel cutting

I don't think we saw anyone aside from Toomes and the Shockers using alien tech as a weapon against another person

>>94196942
No, that's fair
It's the minutiae that actually builds up the majority of our lives, the generalizations are built on those nuances as a trend.
It's the translation from single events to narratives.
You can say "killers are bad people", generalizing all people who have taken a life as the same despite many simple lashing out in self defense or being the instrument for someone else's plan

>Vulture doesn't represent the working class! He's part of the evil Bourgeois class!
well, yeah, the petty bourgeois. who, ultimately, are still working class but have bought into capitalism and so they have something to lose, but who the revolution ultimately cannot succeed without.

>>94196698
This is one of the weirdest arguments I see. I get privilege as a thing that means you don't have to deal with various social-economic issues that others do, but it's a term in social justice because those issues that the unprivileged face are considered bad things

But sometimes I see people who want to continue to suffer because they've gotten so deep into the flanderized "suffering = moral superiority" equivalence that now they stop respecting you if you stop suffering. Being in a shitty situation outside of your control as lionized

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>>94195883
>patreon

>>94195914
Isnt he bourgeois as long as he owns some form of capital/means of production?

>>94200049

He doesn't own the production, his company is literally salvage. He's not even technically a middleman. He is an independent contractor. Government in this case would be the production since he has to go to their trough to get the contract.

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>>94195883
>HE AIN'T WORKING CLASS HE GOT A JOB
>FUCK WHITEY REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>94196618
>I thought it was the anti gravity gun.

>>94196674
>you can have tons of financial/labor capital yet somehow still be a working class (who are defined as people whose only value is their labor/ability to work)
Unless were talking about the american/colloquial version of 'working class' he's bourgeoisie by every definition

>>94200095
Means of production includes both instruments of labor (factories and tools) and subjects of labor (farmland and mines). If a mine/mineral rights is considered a source of natural capital salvage rights would be too.

Do discrete social classes actually exist /co/?

>>94200320

Government in this case still owns it though, he's just renting.

>>94196017
Actual socialists would take the company from both Stark and Vulture and give it to the workers.

>I have to be dirt poor to understand how the rich and powerful are fucking everyone over.

What did they mean by this?

You know this movie had like 6 writers, countless re-writing and refilming like every MCU movie, right? Maybe, and it's a big maybe, there was one writer who wanted to make some social commentary but there were 5 writers and a committee full of rich men that aborted the idea before it became a thing but left some lines because they sounded cool and could convince the teen demographic they were watching a grey morality tale instead of a typical good vs evil Hollywood bullshit. Tricking morons into believing crap is actually deep is part of the Disney formula

>>94195883
>>>/tv/

>>94200922
Slit your throat

>>94195883
He's still the villain. Like in real life socialism and anti-capitalism isn't an answer to poverty but an unfortunate by-product.

>>94199891

>But sometimes I see people who want to continue to suffer because they've gotten so deep into the flanderized "suffering = moral superiority" equivalence that now they stop respecting you if you stop suffering. Being in a shitty situation outside of your control as lionized

I've only seen that with the crazy uber-commies who argue that participating in capitalism is some inherent sin and you're either helping fund the socialist revolution or you're "problematic."

And I only ever see them because a bunch of them inexplicably infest Letterboxd like cockroaches.

>>94195889
Who the fuck is gamerghazi and how are they this retarded.

>>94200049
In that case there is literally nothing preventing anyone from becoming capitalists other than effort.
>buy some duct tape
>make wallet
>sell on Etsy
>profit

>>94200790
How does that improve things?
Do they then give it back to Stark and Toomes? Is it a constant back and forth?

>>94200951
Why so asshurt anon? Isn't that a little overboard?

Fucking neoliberals. Leave it to them to suck corporate cocks and defend Iron Man and Iron Lad trying to keep a working class man down. These fags think it's wrong to move up and out of poverty, and want to protect the interests of the oligarchy. Fuck off with that. Vulture did nothing wrong.

>>94195883
>Noah Berlatsky
who?

>>94196880
The electoral college. :^)

>>94195950
His argument was that for everything good tony is doing now, it wouldnt have been possible if he hadnt been an irresponsible weapons dealer. Tony himself argues this in iron man, saying their crop technology and other humane efforts wouldnt have possible without military funding. So tony gets to be a merchant of death aiding terrorists to build his empire but toomes cant sell to low level criminals to build his

>>94200049
That's literally anybody who owns a garden

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>>94195883
He did live in a really nice house on Long Island, had a daughter going to a private prep academy, and had the purchase power to buy his own dump trucks.

He is about as working class joe as a branch manager at a nice Bank.

>>94201086
Remember gamergate?

They're the anit-gg reddit. You're usual far leftist bullshit.

>>94195914
Rising out of working class mean rising OUT of it. The difference between capitalist class society versus feudal one is that you have small chance of changing your class, but it's still a class society.
He is now a businessman and petit bourgouise, and his working class background matters little to that.

>>94195883
What writers like this don't get is that people who have become part of the bourgeois through work are much easier for many within the working class to ideate over and empathise with than most Marxist scholars on the subject.

Marxism doesn't account for mobility through avenues other than revolution. Not saying that the current system is necessarily good, but there is a problem in that Marxism gets so tied up in adulating it's own theory that it fails to resonate with what actually matters to most of the working class. Personally, I think class better describes background and outlook than where you are at the present moment.

>>94195889
>people he sees as beneath him
But he doesn't see Peter or the first Shocker as beneath him. In the Shocker's case, he kills him to protect his family, and in Peter's he makes clear that he respects him but won't hesitate to kill him if he interferes in his business.

Where did this reading come from that he saw others as 'beneath him'?

>>94196398
>from the get go
He was literally a small time blue collar contract worker, Stark and big gov fucked him over so that this or financial ruin were his options.

Stark himself still deals with the military, legal doesn't equal right. If that were true rich people wouldn't get away with fucking everything.

>>94201033
Ye, it's not everyone but the writer seems to be one of those people with the crab mentality that if you're not suffering as much as everyone else, you're a sellout

>>94196552
Class divide exists in the underworld, too. There are underclasses criminals like drug dealers, working class criminals like car thieves and bank robbers, middle class like pimps and people who deal weed to rich kids, and people like mob bosses are often rich enough to qualify for the 1%.

Of course, it's in the benefit of crime bosses to create illusion that crime exists above class divides, but it's really all the same shit, just illegal. After all, cops make their life by hurting, killing and intimidating people too, that's not a very different job description from a mob enforcer. Just one is legal and other isn't.

>>94201232
A terrible columnist. He told me once that being against the ACA means you're heartless. When I told him it's a matter of perspective, he called me a Nazi. And somehow this fucker gets to write for Forward.

>>94202163
Actually a good example of a 1% criminal is the mob boss in the Kick ass movie
I had a friend in CT who had family in the mob but you go over to their place and you wouldn't know them any different from an actual small business owner

>>94195883
Oh gee, the bad guy is kind hypocritical and unsympathetic, what a crippling flaw for a movie to have.

>>94195999

9 times out of ten these retarded twitter threads are by the same person they're 'mocking'.

>>94202278
Fun fact: Because Millar is so edgy, in original comic, D'Amico crime family was actually Genovese crime family, which is actually a REAL New York mob. Seriously.
I'm assuming they changed it for the movie to avoid getting sued by Genoveses to hell and back.

>>94195914
rising out of the working class does not stop you from being a member of the bourgeoisie assuming that you own capital/the means of production/your own business and employ other people as wage laborers. toomes owns the business he works at and pays his workers a wage that most certainly does not represent the value created for the company in a 1:1 manner. he is exploiting his workers and is a member of the bourgeoisie.

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>Yanks believe you can switch classes overnight if you just make a lot of money
>They can't even into Marxism right
Being rich or broke isn't the only or even the most important determinant of your social class. It's reflected in your upbringing, your worldview and values, and how you're treated by others. An uneducated blue collar guy who starts a garbage company and makes a lot of money isn't going to be invited to dinner by Long Island old money types that's not how the world works. Pic related - he's part of Gotham's old money class and views the world from that lense no matter his actual circumstance.

>>94202631
Not even marxists can into marxism

>>94200790
And fuck it all up.

I mean he did have a sick house

>>94201205
Its shared ownership. Its called an employee owned company. They actually exist.

>>94202631
This. Though it's true that Vulture isn't a Marxist and has acheived a degree of wealth through (what Marxists would describe as) exploitation of the labor of others, one needs to understand that to most people, it's where you're from that counts, not where you are. Though he's a business owner and his criminal activity makes him wealthy, Vulture DOES have a working class mindset. Working class =/= Marxist.

Jesus Christ it's a superhero movie not "There Will Be Blood"

>>94195883

>caring this much about capeshit
>going so far as to analyze a character and write an essay about a minor rogue in an equally forgettable film and remark about class struggle

this is... whoa. deep.

I guess English and gender studies degrees don't pay for themselves easily anymore.

>>94203541
I got an English degree, anon.

They don't pay at all lel

>>94203541
>get to shitpost for a desperate audience while getting paid
>bad
Do I taste salt?

>it's a "people complain about a villain doing bad things" episode
fucking hell, when will this meme end

>>94201436
He's working class at the beginning. After 8 years he became upper/upper-middle class through illegal weapon sales.

>>94201708
Turns out most people would rather work for their money than violently murder people richer than them and take their stuff. Who knew.

>>94203612

I don't even know if he's paid.

>>94195883
>complaining that the bad guy is bad

Vulturefags being dumb is neither here nor there.

>>94199582
He was going to steal the fucking Hulk Buster.

>>94203777

Did you even click the link? He gets 200+ dollars a month from this alone.

>>94204040
Tony made a robot that almost caused mass genocide. Should he really be trusted with the weapons he creates?

>>94203424
And how is stealing a small business from its owner so that it be run by the employees preferable?

>>94204278
This
I wager Toomes was going to Jerry rig all the gear into some other form

His willingness to kill individuals for the sake of his business and family doesn't translate to him being willing to commit mass homocide without batting an eyelash

>>94195883
>This is the anger of the small businessman at the guy with better connections.

And that's not a critique of capitalism right there?

>Not only is he not working class, he's an exploitive employer by any reasonable definition.

Bullshit. He treats all his employees well, and he only zapped that one dude because he was going to snitch on him. When other guys want to leave later, he wishes them well.


I wouldn't be surprised if the guy writing this comes from an upper class family himself.
He forgets that the working class can be financially well off - there are plenty of expensive homes on Long Island owned by plumbers or electricians who run their own businesses.

>>94196880
I approve of this post.
Fucking potato land and all the other retard fly over states.

>>94202193
The Forverts is not what it used to be. It used to be the paper of the Jewish working class. Now it's not only no longer a newspaper, but you have to have serious upperclass connections (like Berlatsky) to get one of the few writing jobs still on offer there. (You also have to be a SJW, natch.)

>>94206029
He only zapped one guy by accident
Like, they didn't need to throw in that scene where he's surprised by what just happened and thought he was using the anti-grav gun

And remember, he FIRES the guy. It's not like he has a lot of issues with letting people go. He hires the previous workers from his contracting firm because he valued them, and they AGREE to work.
So it's suggested that he has no issue with letting people leave (so not exploitive) and he only gets aggressive when someone threatens the whole operation

There is literally nothing to suggest he's exploitive

>>94196880
bait, but still hilarious how liberals keep fucking themselves over with that line
>hurr durr I wanna be a left wing politician!
>...without working class support

>>94200790
>The floor is food.

>>94196394
Your an idiot, he's obviously a pro-communist anti-hero. Capitalism ruined him and turned him into a monster and even though Stark is ostensibly a good guy with capitalism he became a villain.

>>94206642
Totally agree. He was a bad guy, but good to his workers.

>>94199582

Did you somehow miss the bank robbery that Spidey stopped? They blew up a building

>>94207052
>Vulture
>Pro-communist

Nah, he's a capitalist through and through.

The problem is that people seem to think that working class and communist are synonyms.

Wasn't the reason Tony token over the collection of the alien tech was because well it was alien tech?
I understand him being angry at Tony for messing up his business but honestly I would argue someone like Tony was much more capable of safely collecting and researching the tech then to just let anyone take. I mean like there is a marvel shirt about how couple found a weapon amoung the wreckage and how they used it to rob banks
Please take this with a side of salt because well I have seen the movie but I don't feel like I remember it that well so if I'm missing anything just say

>>94208663
After Spidey interfered. The most we see them using it for was metal cutting
I would wager that was how it was sold to them and advertised
I don't doubt that some mobs are out there using alien tech guns either so sparcely or not at all that they're more like nukes: built and bought not to be used

If Toomes was making the streets that much more dangerous, he'd be bringing the Avengers or SHIELD or someone with super powers down on his head. He more or less states that the impact they're allowed to leave has to be minimal