JSA Storytime: Mr. X

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>>93827054
I haven't read Mage yet, NO SPOIL

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>>93827057

>>93827057
oh fug I forgot that came out today

I did skim Dark Days The Casting but that thread is unusable, did they retcon Carter and Shiera to be part of the Challengers of the Unknown?

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>>93827086

>>93827054
So DC's event is looking not too good to me but if others end up liking it then alrighty

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>>93827107
I haven't read anything, I left the house early and got home not too long ago

I might have to cut out to go buy a dishwasher, advance warning (if I do I'll come back and finish, promise)

FUCKING
META
L
HUMANS
I was actually really enjoying it up until that

My LCS didn't have the new Mage trades and I think imma have to digital it.

>>93827107

They founded/funded them

Also Hal Jordan had a GREAT moment in it. It's wild to me how fun to read that comic is.

Also haven't read anything else today...

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>>93827139
So I did miss where on Twitter Robinson said straight up he's back at DC and left Marvel

it really IS the Didio Apology Tour

>>93826996

bold move so we'll see how it works out

>>93827054
Hello, Storyteller.

Outlaws was good, hit me right in the heartstrings.

But holy fucking shit, where to even goddamn start with Dark Metal. I fucking told you events at this stage was a bad idea. Well now look what fucking happened!

>Wtf Cranky, you're just being a hater. Why do you hate fun?
Yeah, if you'll excuse me, I'll just be over here, being right.

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>>93827162

>>93827158
>Also Hal Jordan had a GREAT moment in it. It's wild to me how fun to read that comic is.
Yeah I was rolling my eyes a little at the Joker stuff but then Hal's moment with the batplane was great

>They founded/funded them
Ah, makes sense. I'm guessing they funded the Blackhawks too then?

I think it's pretty cool that an event prelude was narrated via Hawkman's journal

I think Snyder would write a pretty good Hawkman now.

Which is fucking weird to say

>>93827162
whoa, link?

>>93827162
>So I did miss where on Twitter Robinson said straight up he's back at DC and left Marvel
Meh.

Robinson is inoffensive at best but he still was one of marvel's better writers.

Kinda hoping he gets JSA because inoffesnive is probably the best we'll get for that book.

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>>93827211
it was pasted in the Cable thread

Goddammit, a fucking comic with Doop and Longshot and it's going to be unreadable because Malin

>>93827209
It's not too weird.

The dude is a pretty good writer who does meh to poorly wrapped up endings when he's not trying to create the BIGGEST BATMAN STORY E V E R

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>>93827220
I'm very much 'judgement reserved' on current Robinson but it's interesting in and of itself

I wonder if he has a "no Eddie" clause

>>93827169

Keep thinking that's Shade's coat

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>>93827252
man, this is talky all of a sudden

Mr. X goes through many hands, a bit like Matt Wagner's Grendel

I only read NSM today.

GL Earth One sounds interesting though

>>93827220
I've got a feeling Didio/Johns had to of either have offered him JSA or letting him continue E2(god I wish) to get him to return

>>93827229

Malin on Cable is hilarious, keeping the 90s thing!!

I'm so mad the New New Mutants aren't New characters and also where are my beautiful X-babies

>>93827209
I read a little of American Vampire. His weird history stories are good.

>>93827298
especially since his first arc is basically Johns filler shit

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>>93827305
I'm still mad at the BC dude who was all "But Bagley was 90s art!!!" ignoring the total difference between him and Liefeld

>>93827298
It also makes you wonder about Marvel conditions. When Robinson jumped, DC was near its lowest point and Marvel was high. Now...

>>93827057
Mage's interlude is probably the best interlude yet.
No spoilers, but the others didn't quite have the outright prologue energy of this one.

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>>93827343

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>>93827360
...well, fuck

>>93827297
I was cautious about GL Earth One when they said "scientist" but as an astronaut?

Well, that's a pretty bold thing - and that's Hal.

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>>93827391

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>>93827415
Has the GL EO wank gotten to "Why is it not John Stewart" yet? I mean, it has to have.

>>93827158
>My LCS didn't have the new Mage trades and I think imma have to digital it.

Damn, that sucks.
Wondered how they turned out since it seems like Image isn't going to reprint the phonebooks

>>93827297
I really like the solicit for GLE1

>>93827399
Astronaut Hal makes a ridiculous amount of sense

I know New Frontier touched on it but I'm surprised he's never been updated to straight up astronaut before

>>93827399
Yeah the only thing I don't love is that they suggest that he won't be hotheaded still, but I'll give it a chance. Can't be any worse than the rest of the line.

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>>93827445
Dude, he's very, very, very deliberately named Eichmann. They know what that brings to mind.

>>93827445
I'm waiting on "It should star John because he's the only GL that matters" and "Hal can't be the only GL, torchbearer is Kyle's shtick" wank but I haven't gone looking for any yet

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>>93827466

>>93827445
maybe people are finally starting to admit that John fucking sucks?

>>93827455
Same here.
Really looking forward to seeing if the team really delves into why it's such a good re-envisioning.

>>93827457
Yeah, him not being hotheaded is a bit of a shame - but that's why E0's got Batman

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>>93827498
I *want* to read a fresh take on John that actually does something good with him. "he is a perfect cinnamon roll and copy JLU" is not going to do that.

>>93827529
I became even less of a fan of the JLU version when I remembered they gave some Hath-Set attributes to him in the "other" Hawkman episode.

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>>93827529

>>93827507
>>93827457
>Hal Jordan is a smart, capable person with a space and science background
>in the same universe as hothead, dive right in Bruce
I'm stupidly excited for the eventual JLE0 if Bruce hasn't fully matured by then

I hope TT is retconned though because that book was a mess

>>93827498
As long as DCAUfags exist, nobody will ever admit that

>>93827529
I'm thinking that at least we have Green Lanterns now so there's more room to criticize what has been done with John without people immediately rushing to the idea that he's ~important~ because of diversity and should be used because of it.

>>93827591
alas

>>93827580
Yeah, and I also wonder if they'll try to do something different with Barry as well.

Like make him a regular police officer or something.

>>93827591
I partially blame the DCAU for Wondy's perception as a grouchy asshole. People will not let that shit go, or admit that the shows themselves had some serious flaws.

>>93827111
I like when they actually write the article

>>93827445
I'm sure comic Johnfags have.
But the news hasn't reached the general public (or ever will desu) who will be confused by him not being black.

I KNOW Kylefags have been asking that though. Some are annoyed he's taking Kyle's shtick for the book.

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>>93827554

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>>93827690
Okay, I actually do have to go buy a dishwasher

I promise I'll finish this storytime whenever I get back. Promise.

>>93827457
>>93827507
They imply he might not be as hotheaded but he's still described as somebody more adventurous and thrillseeker, which is a good angle too I think

>>93827282
Walter, Santos, Pierre and now Michael?
Just how many names does this weirdo have?

Honestly, fuck the human GLs, all of them.

There's a ton of way more interesting alien lanterns out there who are being ignored, and it's fucking sickening.

>>93827297
Shilling Invisible Republic for a moment

The book is pretty damn good and apparently the creative team has done other good stuff, so I'm hopeful that GLEO will be at least okay. But I know Halfags will be like Batfags and be mad he's not 100% the same as he is in normal canon

>>93827713
Oh definitely.
The whole astronaut angle breathes that.

>>93827739
I'm a big Halfag and the description sounds good to me so far!

I am curious about the creative team though, I will check out Invisible Republic

>>93827739
I'm a big Flash nut, so I'm just glad JMS quit comics.

>>93827879
Ditto.

JMS apparently has one last comic project to do so I"m hoping it's just Superman vol 4 so they can give it an ending and bury that poor thing.
https://twitter.com/straczynski/status/760965082876514304

>>93827739
Halfags just want him to look sufficiently slutty

What was /co/s reaction to Duke having powers in Metal btw

>>93827343

That also annoys me bc I feel you CAN do a defense of that art style

>>93828043
/co/ hated Duke before and they hate him now

>>93827879

BROTHER

Where are those Morrison Flash things...

>>93827653
Hey, Diana had non-grouchy episodes like Maid of Honor and To Another Shore. Anyway, all perma-grouchy Diana derives from writers who have never read a Wonder Woman run and have only read Kingdom Come.

The DCAU portrayal that bothers me the most is Wally tbqh, but I know I'm spoiled as fuck anyway as a Wallyfag so it's dumb to complain.

>>93828043
Most people just rolled their eyes hard.

Me, I'm way more concerned about Batman's respawn point that he fucking built, and that people are excising because it's been around for a while, as if precident somehow makes a stupid idea any less fucking stupid.

And with the way it apparently works, I can't help but imagine there's a room in the batcave dedicated solely to the manufacture of ready-made Bruce Wayne clones. All in stasis and awaiting data upload and deployment on a fucking conveyer belt. Come the fuck ON!

>>93827176
You actually are right, The Casting was fucking garbage.
>DURRR METAL HUMANS

>>93827305
>where are my beautiful X-babies
Aren't most of the accounted for after that lastest Blue issue?

>>93827498
>>93827591
Go back to /pol/

>>93827155
>>93827130
>>93827176
>metahumans
>metalhumans

Snyder is such a tryhard lol

>>93828462
here's the (You) for you, sir

>>93828475
N(in)th Metal

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>>93828499
Fuck off, neo-Nazi filth. Go back to your containment board.

>>93828526
>nth represents an unspecified member of a series of numbers or enumerated items.
>"No, no, it's actually the ninth."

>>93828475
>>93828526
>>93828689
well now I'm just not going to read this

>>93828736
Metal is what happens when someone who isn't smart at all tries to be clever, which is a problem that Snyder keeps having. Guy should just stick to his pulpy horror and crime stuff.

>>93828362
>>93828475
Seriously, this is some next level stupid shit. I think Snyder may either be trolling or legitimately insane.

So what's the over under on the quality of those tie-in issues? Sounds like it'd be hard to fuck up the idea of each Leaguer fighting a Batman/themselves themed mini-boss, but given what we've seen so far, I doubt this will be anything but yet more stupid bullshit.

>>93828825
It's also a problem Bendis keeps running into. Dude is just not a versatile writer at all, he's just an urban/crime writer, and a pretty mediocre one at that. Every time he steps out of his comfort zone, it shows, and badly.

>>93828908
Has anyone here read Torso? I wonder if it good because it is based on real material.

>>93828892
The creative teams are pretty underwhelming so I have like zero faith in this event. Not having Johns write an event for once was a good idea, it's just a shame the job couldn't go to someone more qualified for it.

>>93828951
Snyder is possibly the only guy at DC who actually sells due to his name other than Johns or Lee (maybe Hitch? idk if he is still a draw) so it makes sense.

>>93828617
but anon, Hal is Jewish

>>93828689
Think it was originally "Ninth Metal" and became Nth Metal.

Could be talking out of my ass, though. Haven't read Old school Hawkman in years.

>>93828945
That's the one he cowrote with Andreyko right? I've heard it's really good

>>93828989
Events sell regardless of who's writing them, just put "This series will change the DC/Marvel universe FOREVER!!" in the tagline, a popular artist, and you've got yourself a summer gangbuster. Remember, the kind of people who buy events are characterfags.
The reason Secret Empire doesn't sell as well is because people are actively boycotting it thanks to Spencer's reputation.

>>93828825
t. capenigger

>>93829067
It was ninth on Earth Two, nth on Earth One.

>>93829073
Yep. Looking at the wiki, it seems like David Fincher was supposed to direct it years ago, but dropped out.
Looks like Paul Greengrass is directing a movie about Eliot Ness, and will be using it as a source.
Bendis was quoted as saying:
>It’s a cool true story that very little people know of. You think you know the story of Elliot Ness? You don't. You know the story of serial killers? You don't. And that’s how I kept the faith.

>>93829134
Axis did comparably bad as Secret Empire though event fatigue may have played a part since Marvel had run Original Sin just months prior. They just had to learn the hard way.

>>93829134
Convergence was a pretty big flop

>>93828989
>>93829134
>"X is the only thing that sells."
Anyone else think that maybe, just maybe there's a bit of a systemic problem when that assertion is commonly believed to be true?

But I don't even know why I bother to bring it up. Nobody ever listens when someone points out that putting all your promotional effort into the guaranteed sellers is backwards whoreshit, that shoving big names into absolutely everything does not get people to read the lesser known stuff, and especially not when anyone suggests that maybe the Big Two should stop publishing superhero titles exclusively when there appears to be no real evidence to their assertion that cape books are the only books that people buy.

Goddamn, this industry is fucked.

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>>93829322
Bait work, cranky cranked.

>>93829240
Yeah, I guess event fatigue is another factor. A factor that shouldn't affect DC, at least not too badly.

>>93829241
Convergence had zero build up since they came up with it so they had something to publish while moving to Cali. It also involved a bunch of parallel Earths instead of the main "canon" one, so of course people didn't give to shits about it.

>>93829359
>events sell regardless unless they don't

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>>93827711
well that took entirely too fucking long

>>93829322
I feel like you're bad at contextualizing things. They can't gamble on an event like that because they need the guaranteed sales to support other things.

And Gerard Way is obviously the biggest name at DC right now and his books probably get the best promotion but I don't expect them to sell a ton even in bookstores. Just the reality of the demand of the market.

>>93829418
Honestly, is Convergence even an event? It didn't do jackshit other than bring a few characters to Earth 0.
>but muh infinite multiverse
That will never be referenced again.

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>>93829440
(I got the Mage prelude)

(Kevin's been practicing)

>>93829486
Am I wrong for thinking The Steeze is Eric Stephenson or Todd MacFarlane?

>>93829456
Yes

>>93829456
It was definitely an event even if a placeholder one. It's got all the requirements of being an event, like shitting up the line for few months or ruining characters in future. Hogged the line for 2 months and ruined Superman.

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>>93829510
He's kind of both, yeah--the IMAGE dig is clear and hilarious.

>>93829541
Hahah, yeah and he even calls him Youngblood.

He sorta has young Eric's hair but his sunglasses are straight out of pics of Todd.

>>93828415

Where did dani and xi'an show? Sam and Bobby in USAvengers, Amara in Gold, Rahne apparently in Blue and evil??? Rahne is gonna get fucked bad by movie synergy I feel, gonna turn into arya

>>93829351
See, this is what I'm fucking talking about. Every time this comes up, everyone acts like this isn't a problem, and that I'm just being a big ol' meanie.

Well fuck you, it IS a fuckin' problem. This industry is an utterly pathetic shitshow that can only barely hold on due to catering to a single, incredibly niche demographic. And they can't even do that right! The insistence on long as fuck multi-part storylines for monthly books, the utter lack of any substantial genre variety, an over-reliance on big names, veritable spamming of game changing event books when there isn't even a status quo to begin with, new books being marketed on cheap gimmicks... Fucking hell, the list of ways comic books have completely fucked themselves goes on for days.

But at this point, I think the biggest problem is the consumer base. You're all completely delusional, acting like everything is fine, when in fact the room you've locked yourself in is on fire.

Stop being stupid, and just acknowledge that this industry is fucked.

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>>93829554
I hope Matt can gracefully keep the meta without feeling too "kids these days" or relitigating old and busted controversies--doing the Now is fine, because he's writing it now and it should be partly of its time

>>93829540
Fixing Superman was the best thing that came out of Convergeance.

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>>93829641

>>93829591
>Stop being stupid, and just acknowledge that this industry is fucked.
I've stopped buying any genre fiction garbage except the really good one and hope that this industry collapses soon and all that's left are smaller presses and alternative works, is that good enough cranky?

>>93829591

>implying we don't know the industry is fucked

Dude we're enjoying the fall. Storytelling in sequential art will survive and adapt. Unless you're getting a paycheck from the big 2 or run a comic store why worry

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>>93829663

>>93829591
It's not the consumer's job to do anything but buy the products that appeal to them. If and when the current system dies so be it. There's enough money that something will rise in another form. Unless you're a creator or retailer upset that you'll go broke at some point before whatever comes next, just enjoy the ride. It's not that big of a deal. In the end comics will always exist in some form even if it's just online.

>>93829655
>fixing
I really wouldn't call it that my man.

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>>93829686
>the high school girl reading Mr. X

Is there an annotated Mage out there for when I read vol 2 and can point out the meta I miss?

I'm ok with the Arthur shit going over my head

>>93829641
Definitely.
I think there was a bit of a stretching affect like that in Defined - and while I hope this one stays as deliciously 90's cheese like the interlude was that he lessens the overall impact of the meta.

>>93829655
Nah you might like the result, but they easily could have transitioned to the current status quo in a less convoluted way. He's right that it was a fuckup.

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>>93829718
http://www.annotatedmage.net/

>>93829718
There's a blog post for most of the "who's who" in both mythological and real life characters.

It's actually just commentary on another blog post - but that went down.

http://antickmusings.blogspot.com/2005/12/just-read-mage-hero-defined-by-matt.html

>>93829759
>>93829767

Thanks!

King Arthur a shit tho
T. American

>>93829777
I'm American and I say hail to the king of the britons

>>93829758
I do agree it was convoluted. But that was probably inevitable no matter what they did. Anything they chose would probably involve time travel/reality warp.

>>93829777

THE ONE TIME KEK WOULDVE FIT

>>93829454
Oh, and here we go with this. Crying poverty and acting like you can't afford to do anything ever.

Maybe simplify the art and do done-in-ones so you can go back to being weekly. Stop wasting resources on expensive event books and oversized specials. Again, expand your demographic with more non-cape titles.

I don't pretend to have the answers, and those suggestions are probably not that helpful, but holy shit, do SOMETHING! At this point, comic books aren't even their own thing anymore, they're little more than IP farms for other media. Get it together.

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>>93829759

>>93829758
I don't even get why they merged Superman with Superbro, nobody really asked for it. And that whole bit of "he was always helping in the shadows, e-even during big events, w-we swear" bit was retarded and so obviously done to save face.

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>>93829817
thanks for reading

we're on tomorrow and I don't have to go buy a dishwasher, so yeah

>>93829815
It's not crying poverty when the current system works for them. They know that they'll make x amount of money while allowed for y amount of experimentation because they pay certain rates to creators. I don't know why you can't accept that.

>>93829815
Image is the go-to publisher for non-cape stuff, and with a couple of really notable exceptions, it's not exactly flying off the shelves.

>>93829815
>I don't pretend to have the answers, and those suggestions are probably not that helpful, but holy shit, do SOMETHING!
A post modernist in a nutshell. Not that I blame you cranky.

>>93829796
Nah, literally just have them elope after Truth because the whole thing was about how much they meant to each other and then have a kid who superages because comic shit. I don't even think most of the villains were retconned much. Suggesting a reality change needed to happen is silly.

>>93829844
I don't get it either.

>>93829815
I doubt there's any change they could make which would usher in a renaissance as long as Diamond maintains a chokehold on the industry.

>>93829868
Their hope is that everything they do gets picked up by Hollywood and one day they get big enough to challenge big 2. Pretty hilarious when you think about it.

>>93829844
Even though the events were convoluted, it simplifies things in the long run and avoids a "This isn't/wasn't the real Superman" situation for either of them.

>>93829888
Wouldn't a kid super aging be sort of a time travel/reality warp,though a relatively minor one though? Or would they go the Kon-El route and just artificially age him in a lab?

>>93829888
They could've brought back Chris, make him Chris of this reality and now you have a kid and the marriage.

>>93829853
Bye op.

>>93829677
>>93829679
>>93829692
You're seriously okay with this? If the system fails, that's a good thing? Almost a century of history was all for naught, and you're fine with that?

... The sick part is that, I kinda can't argue with that. If the industry collapses, it's possible a better and more stable market will rise from the ashes.

But I'd rather it not come to that. I don't much believe in clearing the board and starting over. I'd like to hold out hope that the broken machine can be fixed.

It's a tough job, but if they just give it their best shot, it can work again.

>>93827739
That's actually hardcore Superman and Wonder Woman fans.

>>93829982
Why is it a bad thing? It's a natural part of business. Some systems have to age themselves out. Blockbuster and Borders died but we're still fine.

I hate that actual people who will lose jobs and shit, but it is what it is.

How was the new writer on WW today?

>>93829853
Thanks for posting as always, Storyteller.

You enjoy your new dishwasher. I'm gonna go rethink how I view my hobby.

>>93829954
>Or would they go the Kon-El route and just artificially age him in a lab?

That's mostly what I was suggesting there, but I think you can come up with several ways to avoid the strangeness we ende dup with.

>>93829956
Well yeah that would have actually pandered to preFP fans too, but I guess they wanted a biological kid so it wouldn't work.

>>93829982
I don't know what you actually mean by industry here, because the alternative options like underground and European will never be affected, mainstream can get fucked for all I care but it'll never collapse or it'll manage to survive one way or the other.
I think the system is too far gone to be saved by what you're suggesting and I don't know what you are suggesting. If you change it drastically, it implodes a bit and then stabilizes, if you don't it's just going to rot continually until the end of time.

>>93829589
Dani was in a Extraordinary X-Men annual towards the end of Lemire's run IIRC. Xi'an is the only one still missing.

>>93830043
Enough of a mess that I wouldn't buy it, but it was kind of cute in some ways. If my library keeps pulling the issues I might read them there, but I won't bother to keep up with the storytimes.

>>93829777
What the fuck, the Once and Future King is great. Classic mythology shit.

>>93830043
It was fine. Just some nice fluff to fill in until Robinson starts.

Of note is that Etta is back to being the sassy comic relief character she's supposed to be. I never liked how Rucka writes her.

>>93829777
>>93830162
Speaking of Arthur, does anyone have any thoughts on the Paul Jenkins run on Hellblazer? I think it involved Arthur's descendants.

>>93830218
I don't understand why Rucka used her at all unless it was just mandated because of synergy.

>>93830218
Rucka's main trait is that every character in his book has to be devoid of personality.

>>93830113

I was using RessureXtion as my marking point.

I bought that dumb Annual for the Dani story

>>93827054
These covers are consistently amazing.

>>93829853
Cheers OP.

I really ought to get around to reading Love and Rockets at some point

>>93827176
No Cranky, you were actually spot on with this one.

>>93830162
Best parts of TOAFK 1) how accessible it is while being GOOD, and how you take different things from it as an adult and a child 2) how it tries to imagine the characters as real humans could behave (and kinda relatedly 3) how much it's informed by the author's life which you don't really NEED but which is interesting, I mean think about that Lancelot/Guinivere falconry scene and that this is the guy who wrote The Goshawk).

Love the book. Some of the best parts of any take on Arthur are what the author decides to transplant into the myth, and TOAFKs Lancelot and Orkney clan are completely fascinating. These characters tend to be given short schrift in more narrow interpretations, and Gawain in particular is (understandably) cast villainously in some takes in a kinda Angela Carter-ish way. There's also often this odd perception Arthurian stuff is all nice and clean and like, go read Mallory, go read anything, this has always been fucked up. TOAFK actually manages that amazingly while keeping a kind of schoolboy sense of purity going IMO. OP once rec'd The Traitor Son Cycle series which has some fun interpretations of the Arthurian characters.

Really all IMO of course, and you can prob tell I'm delighted Mage is back.

>>93831943
Yep, gorgeous covers across the whole thing.

>>93830043
"Fine" is how I'd describe it.

I imagine it'll be pretty much what a lot of the people I see coming out of the movie on Twitter will want: inoffensive, newbie friendly, hits all the "cute", "badass", "funny", and "feels" moments that make a comic popular on Twitter.

It does have one really good theme set up in it, though, and that's that it's saying something about Diana's childhood/upbringing. I think that's one of the big parts of Wondie's mythos that hasn't been explored enough.

Tomorrow I'm gonna have a bunch of Wondie shit to say because I missed tonight's thread and there was a minor spat on Twitter with Simone rightfully calling people who are fans of the Zeus-parentage out.

>>93835202
What's her beef with that?

>>93835655
she's not retarded

>>93835862
The Jill Thompson (Thomson?) thing has had my favourite origin, but I don't mind the Zeus one really.

>>93835655
It's a completely pointless and silly change on the same level as the "tactile telekinesis" retcon to Superman's powers.

She already has a totally fine and iconic origin, a perfectly fine explanation for her powers, a fine supporting cast and family and the Zeus thing just throws all of it out for no reason.

The irony is that the biggest complaint non-fans, who typically like Azzarello's changes, have with Wonder Woman is her "constantly changing" powers, origin and supporting cast (which is total bullshit that's not even slightly true) when Azzarello is literally the only person in 30 years to do anything like that.

And the other irony is peoples' bitching about Rucka's run retconning Azzerello's origin as a lie when Azzarello literally retconned Diana's origin as a lie in the first place.

Simone's biggest complaint was that this change made it into the movie, which to Wonder Woman fans is a huge dick move.

>>93837342
It feels like people just looking for something to nitpick. It's movie continuity.

>>93837342
I'm not convinced it made it into the movie in the same way. Like to me there's room for the JLU style explanation there rather than assuming it was an affair like Azz wrote it.

I think to me it mostly needs to be her mom yearning for a child and getting one rather than just a happy accident where the romance was the center of things. Beyond that, whatever.