Why did it take until 2017, with Spider-Man and Wonder Woman,

>>93784876
And Captain America wasn't?

Ya'll are going on about how heroic they are, but wait til the sequels.

>>93784876
>until 2017
But Raimi Spiderman is from 2002

>>93784876
Because for a long time sincerity was considered cheesy and the audience wouldn't believe a character genuinely wanted to help other people and it not be a joke or a deconstruction.

>>93784907

I love Cap, but he didn't really have any big moments where he's helping people for no other reason than 'because they needed help.'

I may be misremembering the first Captain America, but I'm referring to shit like Wonder Woman liberating Veld and Spidey trying to stop the bank robbery.

>>93784996
Cap went behind enemy lines to rescue POWs the army had basically given up on.

>>93784996
That's like the entire reason he wanted to join the army though.
He wanted to help for no other reason then it was the right thing to do.

>>93784876
Man of Steel. Go watch it again if you don't believe me.

>>93785047
>>93785052

Okay, amending the question to:

Why are Wonder Woman and Spider-Man: Homecoming the first two movies since Captain America to remember that superheroes are supposed to be heroic?

>>93784876
They got Spidey right on the first try, anon. Arguably a better job than the 2017 version.

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>>93784996
Well, there was the grenade scene. Don't know if that really counts, since they were all military recruits, but the whole purpose of the scene was to demonstrate that Cap genuinely is that guy that will throw himself in the line of fire to save others, if that's what it takes to save them. A grenade goes live and everyone scatters except Cap, who at this point isn't even Captain America yet but still throws himself onto the grenade to save everyone else? That's pretty heroic.

>>93785063
Even without getting into a neck-snapping discussion, there's nothing inspirational about Man of Steel.

If "superhero saves the day" is your bar from inspirational, then I guess you got motivated by Hancock and Wolverine Origins too.

>>93784876
>>93784953
My favorite capeshit is the stuff where it's grayer than good vs. evil. The problem with Batman v Superman wasn't the concept, it was the execution.

>>93786091
The score. The soundtrack for Man of Steel tries its damnedest to make Superman appear to be inspiring even the though images on screen tend to cut that rather harshly.

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I think superhero films are following a similar track that the comics did, albeit greatly condensed. You have the Golden Age, like Donner's Superman, the Batman and Wonder Woman TV shows and the like, and then you have the Silver Age, which kicked off with Batman '89. The Silver Age established a lot of modern ideas, but there was also a lot of silliness that had be jettisoned after awhile (like the Schumacher Batman movies and Steel). Batman Begins kicked off the Dark Age with a superhero story that dared to defy the conventions of the time and redefine the concept of superheroes to the moviegoing public. Begins and its sequel set the tone for the next few years- dark, gritty and modern was the name of the game, because that was what people wanted.

And just like the Dark Age of comics, fatigue set in and people started to yearn for heroes that acted heroically again. I think Wonder Woman and Spider-Man: Homecoming are probably just the first of a new trend. Sincerity seems to be the new irony. Cynicism is out, earnest is in.

>>93784876
>Logan

>>93786214
>Golden Age
>Adam West
>not Silver Age
Anon...

>>93786662
He means in terms of superheroes on screen, not superhero COMIC ages.

>>93784996
fuck off, Cap is the only inspirational hero of our time. He's what superman was suppose to be. Wondy is a really shallow hero by comparison. This is a shitty thread

>>93784876
Marvel had that down at Iron Man

>Spider-Man Homecoming
>Inspirational
How? I liked the movie but Peter wasn't exactly a shining beacon of decency in his city. He got his power-up in order to escape the collapsed building like any shonen hero would have done, but that isn't inspirational.

He saved the Vulture I guess?

>>93784876
Why don't people like you realize that not all super hero stories have to be inspirational and if you keep doing the same fucking shit over and over it gets pretty boring.

>>93786757
There was a whole montage in the beginning of him just randomly helping people out with little things

>>93784876
>watching marxist propaganda

>>93784996
>I don't like bullies
>>93786036
Best scene in the whole film

t. born in 1997

>>93786689
But it doesn't really align. Adam West Batman doesn't share anything thematically or stylistically with the Donner Superman; they just happened to come out within a decade of each other.

I know he's talking about capes on screen, but he's shoehorning in the Gold>Silver>Dark progression for no reason.

>>93786091
Superman is shown that all he wants to do is help because its the right thing to do even if and when the world doesnt seem to notice that and instead is pushing what and how he should do based on their own prejudice.

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wonder woman and spider-man /ss/

>>93784907
That's kind of the point though. You have to do it right the first time before you try to deconstruct anything.

Most Studios used to know this before the Nolan Trilogy fucked it up

>>93784918
This

>>93787855
back when DC and Marvel had their big crossover
Wonder woman did fight spiderman and she wanted the spider dick since he could fight move above even most

spider would have went for it if not for MJ being their to stop him.

>>93787934
yea it was good cant find it

>>93784876
Not enough quips for decu or hope.

People mad at grim superman.

>>93788149
>MCU is too lighthearted
>DCEU is too dark
in order for both DCEU and MCU to be good DC needs to take Marvel's quips.

>>93788188
Neither are like the comics with their tones.

Should be srs with smiles.

>>93786091
>there's nothing inspirational about Man of Steel.
There's plenty of things inspirational about the film.
>If "superhero saves the day" is your bar from inspirational
First of all, this is no different from any MCU story. Marvel characters seem fairly content with basic conflict resolution and quipping at every opportunity.

Secondly, the events of Man of Steel involve such themes like conquering fear and self doubt, protecting a people despite their fear and doubt of the hero, self-sacrifice in the name of justice, fighting against oppression, and making hard choices in the line of duty. All of these are inspirational.

>>93788251
i suppose you specifically were able to find those inspirational moments

most people did not, since the message was too clumsily handled and executed to be received by your average viewer

as for quipping at every opportunity, thats pretty cool, i would certainly do that if i had powers, and i would want someone rescuing me from danger to do so in style

>>93788286
>most people did not
That matters not.

>as for quipping at every opportunity, thats pretty cool, i would certainly do that if i had powers, and i would want someone rescuing me from danger to do so in style
I guess we're just different people with different needs. If I needed rescuing, I'd want my rescuer to take saving my life seriously. I would not want them slinging memes and pop culture references at me.

>>93788188
>in order for both DCEU and MCU to be good DC needs to take Marvel's quips.
If those Justice League promos are any indication, no. No they don't. It's not helping.

The problem is that studios try too hard to make the superhero sympathetic and being sympathetic is somewhat antithetical to being aspirational.
People have a much harder time looking up to someone they pity.

>>93785075

Because The First Avenger was basically a war movie, and "going behind enemy lines to save the forsaken movie" is like a basic war movie plot.

>>93785075
Charm is an oft forgotten part of classical heroism. Western Civ is too into Byronic shit and has been since the 80s.

>>93785075
Didn't Ironman go to a village being attacked by the terrorist cell and rescue them, and then rescue the jet pilot plummeting to his death (the same one that just tried to kill him)?

>>93788331
>taking it seriously and spouting memes are mutually exclusive
get a man who can do both

>WW
>inspirational
There's nothing inspirational about having your supporting cast act circles around you all film.

Nolan's Batman films sold really well and were also extremely well-regarded. This encouraged the studios to go for grimdark.

>>93784876
>because they're aspirational, inspirational and above all, heroic
Batman

Blame all the fucking normies that keep saying Batman is the best hero of all time.

Look at what it did to man of steel.

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>>93788730
TDK's overwhelming box office really poisoned the well. And it's box office had absolutely nothing to do with the Superhero at all. Begins was a very modest success, TDK was a Heat Legend-fest with very little Batman at all.

Yet WB got on a tear to replicate Balebats, and the villain performances went sharply downhill.
Talk about taking the wrong lesson...

>>93784876
Because the people that were running the studio's are incompetent as fuck and don't understand the characters.

It's only thanks to people like Feige and Johns that we're finally getting movies that reflect what the characters should be. Hopefully it means that hacks like Snyder will never get his grubby hands on them ever again.

>>93784918
>Spiderman
>Raimi

>>93784876
Because the previous attempts at both franchises (TASM movies, BvS) were only half-hassed, desperate projects trying to cash-in on the cinematic universe hype, too busy trying to be "bigger than life" instead of just telling a story

>And then, and then Peter finds out his dad was part of a giant conspiracy to make super-spider-blood
>And then Oscorp has hundreds of suits for no reason for all supervillains ever!
>And we'll heavily promote Rhino and the fact that he has to fight 3 villains even though he's not actually there!
>And then Lex creates DOOMSDAY out of nowhere, and he'll FUCKING kill Superman on his second appearance , WE'RE BREAKING NEW GROUND
>AND THEN BATMAN DREAMS THE FUTURE, BECAUSE
>AND THEN LEX HAS YOUTUBE CLIPS OF ALL THE JUSTICE LEAGUE
>WE'RE GONNA MAKE THAT FUCKING BILLION GUISE
>TOBEY AND ANDREW AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE GONNA MAKE ALL THE FUCKING MONEY
>THEYLL CLAP WHEN THEY SEE IT

For fuck's sake, BvS' costume designer said he likes to think the red on WW's costume comes from the dried up blood of her enemies she spilled in thousands of epic battles. Flash now makes shit explode just by making a step. That should tell you everything

>aspirational, inspirational and above all, heroic?
All of which Spider-Man, in Homecoming, was not.

>>93784918
that was more about maintaining racial purity than anything else

>>93789175
i thought he was
he was just a guy who wanted to do the right thing

>>93784918
Those movies were more about him saving his girlfriend than anything.

>>93788188
Dc takes itself too seriously. Marvel constantly winks at the audience going "We know it's stupid. You paid for it though"
In the comics the people in costumes do take themselves seriously. Then it's up to the citizens and "normal bad guys" to go "hey.. you know you're dressed like a giant bat right?" Both movieverses are trash at this point. Dc has two strikes with BvS and SS. But Marvel is done with Thor, Avengers, and especially with Spider-Man. Unless we get Amalgam Cinematic Universe it's all downhill from here.

>>93784876

Nah, it's largely because it's jokey and you don't have to think much since the plot is so simplistic and lightweight that you can go take a piss and not miss anything. Mainstream appeal is all about being as inoffensive as possible.

>>93784907
>And Captain America wasn't?

No, it was just watered down snorefest.

>>93784918
Those are out of the equation, it's more fit to compare them with 2010+ movies

>>93789208
Was he really or was he just using those people?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nkboMqYhSA

>>93784876
>Why did it take until 2017

Because the Dark Knight made a billion dollars

and it was "mature" and "operatic"

>>93789208
>he was just a guy who wanted to do the right thing
Sure. But DID he. Give me two scenes where he actually saved someone.
>the bank robbery/candy shoppe
No he caused that. Who else in the MCU caused someone to almost die because he was so irresponsible?
>the boat scene
Hahahaha. No.
>the guy at the weapons deal? Sure. But dude was a criminal. A crimimal with a heart of gold; but a criminal nonetheless.
Heck his first action scene is him beating up some civvie because he was trying to get into his car in a bad neighborhood.

>inspirational
Didn't really inspire anyone. Everyone who wanyed to be had already been motivated by the Avengers. Even the title character is just trying to be an Avenger. I can't see him inspiring kiddies in the audience. Three parents rushed out of the theatre because of the sex humour. What? He stood in front of America's flag? Gee. Haven't seen that before.

The only thing I can agree with is him beimg aspirational... in the loosest sense of the word.
>inb4 but muh Parker Luck
Parker Luck never got nearly one hundred people including Children killed. He never need help and if he did it was because he was thinking ahead and asked for it on his own merits.

I get that they were trying to focus on the kid side of Peter Parker. It would've been nice to see that. What we got instead was PG-13 Deadpool. Sp:H was only there for Marvel to mark their territory on.

>>93789328
admittedly I walked out 2 hours in when he reenacted the lifting pile of rubble scene from the comics, so I don't know how the final fight went. I did, however, return when Captain America was talking about waiting for something and being dissappointed when it arrived.

>>93784876
I get that it's the new hotness and you guys need to suck it's dick so bad "best mcu movie yet", "best MCU villain ever", "best whatever ever" like always but was spiderman really aspirational, inspirational and above all, heroic? or was it just another Marvel movie?

>>93789360
Worse. It was Marvel trying out its new cutting edge formula. Now, they're hip and swag and whatever people trend these days It was one F-Bomb away ftom being an R, and one nipple away from being a hard R.