WB Animation are a bunch of shitweasels

>Whatever. I hope you all see second season (and they didn't destroy it) and I hope you like it. I'm just really pissed off now that the streaming service is here and has also totally blown it. What a waste of time and money.
Thanks, Doo - Just to clarify, they didn't exactly "fire" Zac, he walked off in disgust because WB allowed certain crew members to take too much power and get too much credit because they played politics, were at WB longer and were WB's "pets" - so they could o what they wanted and had the top brass' ears, into which they whispered how they could do a better job than Zac and I. Zac is one of the nicest, fairest and most egoless people you'll ever meet in Hollywood, who is also one of the most talented. Usually those two don't go hand in hand, but somehow Zac makes it work. He's an saint of a guy - and absolutely brilliant. That kind of style is just not in keeping with WB's current managerial style, so Zac appeared "weak" and the water was chummed and the sharks attacked. Every move they made was a creative mistake for the show, but if an arrogant jerk suggests it, WB believes it MUST be right! Zac just got tired of fighting against a machine that clearly didn't respect what and how he was doing to make a great show, so he bailed. I was Zac's second in command - I was the head writer, story editor and uncredited co-creator/developer of the series.

>>93640570
>It would have been natural, since even WB considered me "the voice of the show,' to promote me to producer and allow me to have some creative control over what happens AFTER the scripts were complete (important things, like being in voice records to make sure the lines I wrote were delivered correctly, etc), but no, once Zac left, I was NOT demoted, I just lost my direct line to the top of the creative power structure and the people who took his place thought THEY knew better, so I was basically left in my office churning out great scripts without any control over making sure they were executed correctly like I had with Zac. If Zac wasn't sure about something in the script, he'd walk in my office and ask me what I meant. That stopped happening and board artists and directors were given permission to rewrite at will - most of the time for stuff that they wouldn't have rewritten had they understood what the intention was or what the function of it was in the story structure. They all really talented artists - but none of them are trained writers.

>>93640594
>Animation (especially kids animation) is made up of a bunch of artists who went to art school and they're brilliant, trained artists, not writers - which takes JUST as much training and practice. It's the old cliche - EVERYBODY thinks they're a writer because words on a page look like words on a page - unlike ART, which you can tell when someone has gone to school and is trained and learned the craft of drawing and animating. They all think, "I'm funny! I can write this!" without having any idea what there-act structure is, what character arcs are, how to create character driven comedy, how to structure and build a story and keep your character's voices and action unique and individual to that character. It's all just so common in Hollywood. The WGA is about to go on strike again because the studios and producers don't want to give writers the tiniest, little bit more (in fact, while Hollywood is raking in record profits, writer salaries are going down). It's the oldest story in the book (ironically, because "books" need writers).

Dude sounds a bit egotistical, but he's got my sympathies. Imagine all the shitshow stories we don't know about because of NDAs.

>>93640616
>I'm sorry to rant, here, folks, and I'm expecting to get a stern letter from WB telling me to shut up, but I'm so sick and tired of haven been treated like crap at that place, being basically out-right told they didn't want me there - BUT - they couldn't do the show without me, so they'll grudgingly let me stay because the show if funny and no one else seems to able to write it correctly. I'm sorry, but we made a GREAT show and if everyone who had the power had done the right things to give the show a good chance of finding an audience, they would have had a hit Scooby Doo show. I don't care what any of the "haters" (God, I despise that word) say. BCSD was the a great funny show with great, well-rounded characters that would have caught on and would have one day been considered one of the top 3 best Scooby series of all time. There's no way of knowing now. They sunk it, instead. Lord forbid Zac and I were right all along. Sorry, I'm having a grumpy day. End of rant.

>>93640649
>Thanks for the kind words, as always, Doo. Technically, Zac wasn't fired, but they tied his hands and made it impossible to do his job, so he left.
>I also wasn't "demoted," as I remained story editor until I left, but the person who took over for Zac took me out of the loop - so I couldn't make sure the scripts were being executed properly once completed or be in the room when there was a creative problem to help solve. BCSD was a very script driven show and very difficult to write - even for many brilliant veteran writers. But people tend to assume writing is easy or anybody can do it. They fail to understand that the amazing animation artists became that good because they went to school for it, practiced it, worked at it for years and learned their craft - and the same thing applies to writers. They mistake "being funny" or being able to come up with funny ideas as "writing," which requires an understanding of character arcs, act structure, plot points, pacing, etc, etc. The problem is if you took a trained artist and a non-trained artist and asked both to draw. Any layman off the street could look at both drawings and guess who the professional artist is. If you did the same with a trained and untrained writer, the layman would see same thing when he looked at what they produced: words on a page.

>Everything goes to shitter once some people start stroking their egos
goddamit, why this kind of shit seem to always happens in entertainment/creative industry?

>>93640672
>I've heard much of second season turned out well. I imagine the problems will begin towards the last few episodes after Zac left and then they put me on hiatus when I finished the last script and completed production for 6-7 months without ANY writer on staff at all. Hopefully, they'll drop the rest of season 1 and all of season 2 on the streaming service (or anywhere) soon. There's so much great stuff I'm excited for you guys to see it.

>>93640529
>>93640570
>>93640594
>>93640616
>>93640649
>>93640672

>Butthurt writer upset he didn't get promoted to Producer

Writers are the least essential part of the animation process. He needs to check himself.

>BCSD was the a great funny show with great, well-rounded characters that would have caught on and would have one day been considered one of the top 3 best Scooby series of all time.
He's right, fuck Cartoon Network

>>93640701
ehh, giving the whole bullshit with Young Justice cancellation because business higher ups didn't though to of selling toys to girls I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least 90% true.

>>93640594
>>It would have been natural, since even WB considered me "the voice of the show,' to promote me to producer and allow me to have some creative control over what happens AFTER the scripts were complete (important things, like being in voice records to make sure the lines I wrote were delivered correctly, etc), but no, once Zac left, I was NOT demoted, I just lost my direct line to the top of the creative power structure and the people who took his place thought THEY knew better, so I was basically left in my office churning out great scripts without any control over making sure they were executed correctly like I had with Zac.

Okay, first, if you can't draw then you have no business trying to be in charge of an animation production.

And second, if he's such a great fucking writer then he should have been able to get his ideas across in his WORDS and not worry about the boarders misinterpreting or failing to understand his intent.

Sounds like this whiny faggot couldn't draw OR write.

>>93640790
t. wb exec

What a shitshow. I bet it's what happened to Bunnicula too. Fucking morons had two hits in their hands and couldn't even stop jerking each other off for two minutes to realize it. Hope Warner Animation crashes and burns. What do they have anyway? Titans? Lego?

>>93640910
i wish lego wasnt so stupidly huge it could just keep them afloat on its own

>>93640910
TTG. How fucking fitting

>>93640701
Oh fuck off

>>93640701
This is why animation will continue to be viewed as a joke while TV live-action enters a golden age every other decade.

>>93640616
Someone needs to send this to every SU boarder on staff.

>>93641298
Why?
What does SU have to do with this?

>>93641341
Did you even read what I quoted? Are you not familiar that SU has no writers, only board artists who think they can write?

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>>93641341
SU doesn't have writers and the story is through storyboard artists.

>>93641406
>Did you even read what I quoted? Are you not familiar that SU has no writers, only board artists who think they can write?

Are you dumb enough to think this is unique to SU and SU alone? Animation has always been storyboard driven.

>>93641518
>Animation has always been storyboard driven.
Western animation, maybe.

>>93641498
>Show has zero creative slapstick
>Action scenes are often characters just running and sword spinning, sometimes with a dutch angle
>It's impossible to convey expression through words!

Gee, I wonder how humans have managed to write stories up until this point when they were being severely limited by just words.

>>93641518
Storyboard driven primarily works when you're doing gag cartoons, not world-building story arcs where characters are suppose to develope over time.

Also, about half of the cartoons airing right now are script-driven.

>>93641406
>>93641498
Except SU does have two head writers; Ben Levin and Matt Burnett.

>>93641498
>Venture Bros, a show that's consistently high quality
>SU and every other CN show they mention, shows that have acclaimed episodes few and far between
but, hey, who needs scripts, right?

>>93641498
>I worked on a show that was script driven and probably one of the best cartoons around, and not just for cartoon standards
>But it's very hard to convey emotion through script even though Ven Bros did it just fine

As one of MANY people who were put through the WB Animation meat grinder, they are currently the worst studio to work for. They put one of the directors from TTGO to take over scooby, someone I've had to deal with before. OP probably wasn't a dream to work with himself, but ass kissing gets you further at WB than actual talent. It's not a secret I'm the industry.

>>93641640
>>93641654
Even if they exactly what VB did there's no way it would get the same results or the same reaction.

VB is one of those cartoons that only exist every once in a blue moon. Cherish because there'll probably never be another one like it.

>>93641498
>Steven Universe has a lot of visual jokes
it does?
>stylized action sequences
I have never seen an SU action sequence go off model for style, ever
>specific character expressions
who?
also, how is any of this stuff not scriptable?

>>93641627
No.
>>93641498
It has story editors who write out a loose paragraph describing the general sequence of events that happens. "Steven goes to the Donut Shop. Lars and Sadie are fighting and Lars storms off. Steven comforts Sadie where she vents to Steven all the problems Lars and her have been having." Stuff like that.

>>93641406
Why would you assume that everyone on /co/ cares about SU, SUfag?

>>93641685
Why is it live-action can churn out a critically acclaimed show once every couple of months but cartoons can only seem to do it once every five years on a good decade? Is it purely because of the quantity factor?

>>93641742
Why do you feel angry if you don't underestand a reference to another production immediately upon it being mentioned? If you don't know why it's relevant to SU, why not just ignore the post?

>>93641746
People don't care about animation.
That's pretty much it.

>>93641663
As someone hoping to work in the industry one day, do you think that if someone gets a job there, they should pass on it, or is the bad experience still worth being able to put it on your resume and gaining job experience?

>>93640701
Aren't you supposed to be working on "Cans without Labels" John?

>>93641770
Why bring up SU at all?

>>93641770
>Why do you feel angry if you don't underestand a reference to another production immediately upon it being mentioned?
Quit the projection, I asked why you assumed everyone cares about your show, anon.
>If you don't know why it's relevant to SU, why not just ignore the post?
Because I wanted to know why you would expect knowledge of SU's production would be commonplace.

>>93641707
>who?
Any episode by Raven Molisee and Paul Villeco.

>>93641784
But the people who DO care about animation care about it a shit ton, and a lot of the quality is still average. Even someone like Alex Hirsch who constantly says, "We never thought we were writing a kids show, the concept never came up in the writers room" immediately doubles back during the Weirdmaggedon finale and goes, "People expected too much from a kids cartoon" and use it as an excuse for lame writing when it's convenient.

>>93640529
so was BCSD actually a good show?
I never actually watched it outside that promo from a couple years back with the flashlight gag that went on for too long and wasn't impressed

>>93641801
A foot in the door is still a foot in the door. There are still some great artists working there, but even some of the old timers have been looking to leave, it's the clowns running the place that are the main problem, and they threaten artists who think of going to the union for unpaid hours and harassment. As with any job, if you are being treated poorly it's ok to find better work elsewhere.

>>93640910
>I bet it's what happened to Bunnicula too
I watched a random episode of Bunnicula and it sucked. But it was a pet-only episode and I'm not sure if that's most of them.

Was kind of surprised that Bunnicula didn't talk too

>>93640529
>>93640570
>>93640594
>>93640616
>>93640649
>>93640672
>>93640696
he sounds like an egotistical brat but he does make valid points. in any case, what did you expect writing for a shitty product like scooby doo.
>>93641498
this is weird because im 90% sure some crew member uploaded the lion 3 script

>>93641721
Here's what an average SU outline looks like (it also looks akin to outlines seen on other shows, like adventure time)

http://ben-levin.tumblr.com/post/136910783230/message-received-outline

>>93641877
>But the people who DO care about animation care about it a shit ton, and a lot of the quality is still average

A vocal minority who don't have the resources to make the dream projects they want.

Sausage Party is the closest we'll get to people taking animation seriously.

>>93641801
Do what you can in terms of making a good product and work there to at least get something on your resume. Most employers want people with experience and for a would be-coworker to have an inkling of what their job would entail. And to see if the person can get along well with others.

>>93641921
ok so, what they write is a chain of events, and the storyboarders just write the dialogue.
That doesnt make it so bad.

>>93640529 (OP)
>>93640570
>>93640594
>>93640616
>>93640649
>>93640672
>>93640696

This guy's a writer? His composition is garbage.

>>93641883
despite the art style is was alright if not your standard scooby-doo fair
the best parts was when they were taking the piss out of the usual scooby-doo formula

>>93640594
>>93640616

I'm baffled to this very day why writing and having a good writer isn't seen as important to a show.

>>93641921
well that looks better. Too bad /co/ is just gonna post ian´s ignorant ass statement

>>93641245
>This is why animation will continue to be viewed as a joke while TV live-action enters a golden age every other decade.
You remember tv shows in the 90s? Especially TV shows that wanted you to take it seriously?

I can't remember ONE of those shows that was worth a damn.

>>93640910
Bunnicula is a board driven show whose main writing staff (including the showrunner) consists of artists in the first place

>>93641245
>tv live action enters a golden age
>garbage like walking dead and GOT are your examples
sure buddy

>>93641883
It was alright.

Not completely terrible but nothing spectacular either. I think a lot of the backlash comes from A. The FG/Brickleberry artstyle and B. Coming off the heels of Mystery Inc.

>>93641984
Is this why people hate Ian now?

>>93641928
>Sausage Party is the closest we'll get to people taking animation seriously.
No it was not. The thing was made by a bunch of stoner idiots who wanted to make a retarded movie fort kicks, and used underhanded tactics to make it cheaper by screwing over animators.

That movie wasn't a serious foray into mature animation.

>>93642005
Batman: Animated Series.
Superman: Animated Series
Daria
Gargoyles
The Critic
Hey Arnold
King of the Hill
Duckman
And if you want, Courage the Cowardly Dog, which had a lot of moments that weren't just comedy but good Aesop's Fables morals.

>>93642023
>Never listed examples
>Projects them anyway to look right

Whew. I'd take Stranger Things over Gravity Falls or Over The Garden Wall any day.

>>93642084
So you see what I meant by "closest". And I use it very loosely.

Sadly, thanks to the critical and commercial success the film experienced, this is what mature animation is expected to be from now on.

>>93642119
>literal 80s bait
go back to /tv/ faggot

>>93642206
Not an argument.

>>93640649
But Be Cool Scooby Doo WAS a bad show full of terrible written characters.

>>93642119
>Over the Garden Wall
Nigga...

>>93641518
Animation used to be almost entirely script-driven. It only changed in the last decade or so.
>>93641603
>Also, about half of the cartoons airing right now are script-driven.
That's BS and you know it.

>>93642119
>>93642403
Gravity Falls is the best cartoon ever made, and I will continue to stand by that statement. OTGW, yeah that's just shit.

>>93642480
Loud House. We Bare Bears. Gumball. Teen Titans Go! Milo Murphy's Law. All the Marvel and Star Wars cartoons. Most of the Dreamworks cartoons on Netflix.

That's a big list already.

>>93642093
...I meant live action series.
You see how the post I quoted says live action? And I make the note to say TV Shows? Not cartoons?

I'm talking about shit like Viper and Mortal Kombat

>>93642608
Why would you remember stuff like Viper over stuff like X-Files, Twin Peaks, Sopranos, Roseanne, Seinfeld, or Freaks and Geeks?

>>93640529
I really didnt read your walls of text, but that pic looks like a cross between Seth McFarline and China

>>93642503
...I like OTGW and Gravity Falls.

Personally I don't find either show comparable in any sense.

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>>93642119
>>93642503
>Shitting on OTGW
Eat shit

>>93642711
Probably because I hadn't seen the majority of those.
I resend my statement.

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>>93642503
>Gravity Falls is the best cartoon ever made

Sir, I'm sorry to inform you of this but Batman, The Animated Series is the best cartoon ever made, and the subsequent shows made by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm just add to them.

Gravity Falls is a brilliant cartoon, probably the best cartoon of this gen... but the best ever?

Nah.

>>93642848
The entire DCAU is a joke compared to GF. Capeshit in general is deeply overrated.

>>93641984
>ian´s ignorant ass statement
which is?

though it should be noted that Matt Burnett and Ben Levin are also artists (just not on SU itself, outside of Ben doing some additional boards on Last One Out of Beach City)

>>93641957
Unless you're writing a story or article. Only autists care about composition on the internet

>>93642776
Wirt is a very poorly characterized Dipper, and Greg is a very poorly characterized Mabel. (And you could argue the same for Beatrice and Stan, to some degree.)

There are other parallels as well, but those are so obvious it's ridiculous to say the shows aren't comparable.

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>>93642949
I don't really get the comparison. There are tons of shows that feature insane characters next to normal or serious ones. It's common enough to be a coincidence.

Also the shows have two completely different directions, stories and themes to represent. Sure, there is a main villain but the protagonist's problems are caused mainly by their own progression into "the unknown" as they call it, darkness or what have you.

Gravity Falls is a reactionary tale. Things happen to characters and they react back to them. Creepy shit happens, they deal with it. Bill happens, they deal with him. How it's told is more akin to an adult series on HBO or AMC which is what I like about it. It's a drama on its own in its second season.

So really, no. I don't find them comparable. OTGW is more of an experience, journey-like show. Gravity Falls is more of a mystery, investigative show. Both premises are completely different, as are the antagonists and situations, and I find neither show terrible and everyone should see both of them.

>>93643109
No one compares things because they're exactly similar 1:1.

Both shows feature a kid duo going on paranormal creepy adventures in the forest. At some point, the main boy kid is revealed to have a crush on a girl who ends up being a big motivation for whether or not he chooses his love interest over helping their sibling. That's enough to compare whether you like the direction of one or the other.

>>93640529
Shit was doomed from the beginning, even without executive meddling.

Shit's like trying to steer a sinking ship into port when it's in the middle of the fucking Atlantic.

>for shows since 2010

>WB Animation
>Board Driven
Bunnicula
>Script Driven
Literally everything else (even Teen Titans Go and Wabbit)

>Cartoon Network Studios
>Board Driven
Adventure Time
Regular Show
Secret Mountain Fort Awesome
Uncle Grandpa
Steven Universe
Over the Garden Wall (though episode 9 was scripted)
We Bare Bears
Long Live the Royals
Mighty Magiswords
OK KO
>Script Driven
Ben 10: UA
Generator Rex
Symbionic Titan
Robotomy
Problem Solverz
Ben 10: Omniverse
>Some in-between where the outlines are script like, the boarders have more input than on script driven shows, but less than on board driven shows
Clarence (earliest episodes script driven)
Powerpuff Girls reboot
Ben 10 reboot

>Disney TV Animation
>Board Driven
Fish Hooks
Mickey Mouse
Star Vs
Billy Dilley
>Script Driven
most other shows

>Nickelodeon Animation Studios
>Board Driven
Sanjay & Craig
Harvey Beaks
>Script Driven
Everything else (including post-2nd movie spongebob, even though classic, the movie, and post-movie were all board driven)

>>93643315
You're forgetting a lot of Netflix toons there. As well as adult cartoons.

>>93643315
>(though episode 9 was scripted)
No wonder that was my favorite episode, by far.
Do you have sources for all this BTW?

>>93642848
>Gravity Falls is a brilliant cartoon
season 1 was good, season 2a was probably the best, but after that it falls apart
the art style sucks & falls into the calarts shit & has stupid anatomy

most of the protagonists suck. Mabel is a selfish jerk who walks on others, Soos is a retard, Wendy barely gets any time to be good, so that leaves the Stans & Dipper. Dipper is a pretty good character, but it sucks that he doesn't get to actually achieve anything he wanted after finding the author. Ford is a great character in concept (great voice actor, awesome premise, tons of buildup, even a good backstory), but in practice he really sucked. like Wendy, he doesn't really get a lot of screen time for characterization. take the fact that he apparently has a backstory where Bill used & manipulated him, that can easily be written for various plotlines or conflicts. in practice? they barely do anything with it other than Ford knows not to trust Bill. Stan, lastly, is probably the best character. he has a full character arc & actually learns from past mistakes. he starts off as a selfish jerk & goes through all kinds of hell to help his family

the antagonists are pretty good at their best (some of Bill & most of Gideon, & all of the shapeshifter), but everyone else is ultimately forgettable

>probably the best cartoon of this gen
if you mean of the 10s, probably not. I've honestly seen better on all 3 networks within this decade, but that's my opinion

>>93643351
it's from who's credited as writers vs who's credited as boarder

also one of the writers on episode 9 (Cole Sanchez) is also one of it's boarders, so maybe it's actually a mix rather than pure script driven?

>>93643342
the only board-driven adult cartoon I can think of is season 5 of Samurai Jack (the original was also board driven), while the only board driven Netfix Dreamworks show is Home

>>93643416
Season 2b was brilliant, and you're a dickhead who spouts outright lies about the show (and has egregiously shit taste to boot).

>>93643435
>>93643351
oh and for sources for Clarence, nuPPG, and Ben 10:
Ben 10 gives the boarders "additional writing" credit, Clarence (which doesn't give the boarders writing credit) we know due to various crew member statements, and nuPPG (which gives the boarders "written and storyboarded by" credit) is from how the non-boarding writers get "writers" credit instead of "story" credit and someone claiming to be a former boarder on neogaf complaining about the scripts they were given

>>93640701
We laugh but Pencilmonkeys ACTUALLY believe this

>>93643478
season 2b was kinda meh at its best
2a had an air of mystery where you didn't know what Stan was doing, you didn't know who the author was, you didn't know what Bill's planning, etc
2b begins with answering all of that flat out & the only real mystery for our mystery show is "how will Bill do it", which they kinda dropped the ball on. I can think of maybe 2 episodes that kinda ended with it, maybe 3 if you include the one where Ford explains how he's keeping Bill out & gives away how he dies in the most retarded chekov's gun I've seen in years

the finale is also really shit. part 1 is alright & I like how everything's gone mad max, part 2 is shit, & part 3 felt rushed as shit in some areas (Ford meeting McGucket after years), went in reverse in some (Pacifica is a cunt again), & was just plain bad (Stan's "great sacrifice" only lasting for like an hour of his life)

>>93640701
Writers are the only part of an animation crew who really matter to the final quality of the show.
So I'd say they're most essential.

>>93641978
>I'm baffled to this very day why writing and having a good writer isn't seen as important to a show

Because there is a huge feud between artists and writers within the animation industry.

For the majority of animation's existence, there were no scripts and no writers. It was gag driven, as in the artists would come up with ideas they wanted to draw and go straight to boarding with them.

Script-driven animation became a thing in the 70s when Katzenberg reworked Disney's animation studio (having come from a live-action film background and knowing little about animation). Saturday Morning cartoon's and the assembly line production also created a stronger culture of script-driven animation, which eventually became the norm with gag-driven stuff the rarity.

So there remains a bitterness among artists, who feel that someone who doesn't know how to draw should not be calling the shots in an animated production. Just read anything by John K. to get an idea of how nasty the attitude toward writers can be in the animation field.

They'll never get along.

>>93644243
And that is why they'll never descend into the top tier anime realm.

>>93644243
>So there remains a bitterness among artists, who feel that someone who doesn't know how to draw should not be calling the shots in an animated production. Just read anything by John K. to get an idea of how nasty the attitude toward writers can be in the animation field.

Chris Sanders (Lilo and Stitch guy) also hates writers and did a satirical children's book all about how worthless they are. He used the assembly of an airplane as an analogy to why including non-artists in a production that requires artists is idiotic.

>The writer likes planes
>He doesn't know how planes work and has never built one before, he just knows that he likes them and that makes him qualified to lead production.
>The writer tells those who actually know how to make the plane how to make the plane and will not understand why his demands are impractical or impossible, because he does not know how planes work.

The animation industry existed for 50+ years before writers started taking over in the 70s. It can get by without them.

>>93641957
That's just how the internet, and more importantly message boards, work.

Not like anyone gives a shit about that sort of thing.

>>93643749
>Writers are the only part of an animation crew who really matter to the final quality of the show.
>So I'd say they're most essential.

Chuck Jones never used a single script for any of his cartoons. All of his Looney Tunes shorts were done straight to boarding with the dialogue written in the margins as he came up with it.

Cartoons don't need scripts or writers. Nearly all of the most celebrated pieces of animation were created without writers.

>>93644373
I don't get why it has to be exclusive. Don Bluth could've sure as hell used some writers since his entire team was only amazing at drawing, and some writers need an artist to bring their vision to life. The best is an artist who knows how to write which is what most of Pixar and Disney are, but it isn't an outrageous idea to consider utilizing everyone's strengths in a single task than trying to do Jack of all Trades for a TV production, which is a very short production to begin with.

I don't task the animators to ALSO do the backgrounds because they're artists, too, because they're better as animators. Same things for writers and boarders.

Also a lot of the animation didn't challenge itself in its writing. Most people were making short UPA stories, Looney Tunes gags, or Hannah Barbara cliche sitcoms. I would sure as hell love to see more work like The Incredibles which had a script.

>>93644243
>>93644373
I had no idea artists in the industry could be such prima donnas.

As an aspiring artist and writer, I feel this is unfair. What if someone has great visuals in mind but just can't draw? Why can't they be given a chance?

I have a friend who has this issue, and he's pretty great at describing what he wants to an artist while also giving them room to do their own thing at the same time. Some great results have come from this, and I don't see why he should be given a hard time just because some artist has their head too far up their own ass.

>>93644463
>Cartoons don't need scripts or writers. Nearly all of the most celebrated pieces of animation were created without writers.
And the best and most famous stories throughout history and beloved movies were done WITH writers. Literature and live-action have managed to branch out in variety while animation stayed stagnant.

So many animation can learn from those.

>>93640784
>because business higher ups didn't though to of selling toys to girls

I feel bad for Weisman. No matter how hard he dismisses this, people still chose to believe the words of Dini, even if he never worked on YJ.

>>93644373
Wasn't that "book" just an internal memo? I don't think it was ever released. Besides, Sanders has gone on to clarify that he doesn't hate writers. He just hates writers who know nothing about animation and just approach it like live-action. He may feel respect and understanding of the medium are the most important traits any writer could have. And it can be said that many writers of animation don't come in with that. They come in thinking they're better or can fix everything without ever having done any of it to begin with.

That being said, the bitter divide between artists and writers is something that affects comics too. Maybe we all just need to get over ourselves and admit we all have something to contribute.

>>93644516
>What if someone has great visuals in mind but just can't draw?

Then they can learn.

You don't go into a visual medium without any ability to express your ideas visually. That'd be like trying to start a restaurant with no idea how to cook.

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>>93644373
>Chris Sanders (Lilo and Stitch guy) also hates writers and did a satirical children's book all about how worthless they are.
Is that why he was kicked off of Bolt and How to Train Your Dragon 2?

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>>93644463
>Nearly all of the most celebrated pieces of animation were created without writers.
O RLY?

>>93645023
You can't "learn" to draw. It's one of many innate talents. You can only fine-tune it with experience.

>>93644715
>That being said, the bitter divide between artists and writers is something that affects comics too.

There's a reason Image was founded entirely by artists.

At the time, artists were getting shit on by the publishers and writers were taking too much credit at Marvel and DC. Fuckin Peter David started demanding that the original page art, when returned by the publisher, should be split between the writer and the artist (because the artist was just a tool to express the writer's vision). Writers were getting REALLY full of themselves by the early 90s, which is why all the Image founders decided to create a company for artists first and writers preferably never.

Of course, the "no writers" thing lasted less than a year (McFarlane was hiring guys like Moore and Gaiman before Spawn had even reached issue #10) when they realized that pretty art isn't enough to sell a book and most of them didn't have the chops to write as well as draw (to Larson's credit, he did both and never stopped).

Now Image today is known more for its Superstar Writers than its artists. Go figure.

>>93645053
He was kicked off for Bolt because he didn't like the changes Pixar's brain trust was handing down for American Dog. He was never kicked off Dragon. He only took on an EP role because he decided to work on the Croods which was the movie that he was originally hired on to do by DWA in the first place.

>>93645114
Yes, you can. that's why artists are a dime a dozen. Same with writers.

>>93645114
>You can't "learn" to draw.

Yeah, that's bullshit.

If artists can learn to write (like Erik Larson), then writers can learn to draw.

But drawing is the harder part of making a comic. Hell, even coloring is more time consuming and laborious now that production standards and effects are higher. Writing is one of the fastest and easiest parts of producing a comic. What takes an author 5 minutes to write can take an artist 5 hours to draw.

>>93645180
>>93645425
Writing well is infinitely harder than drawing well. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

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>>93645114
>You can't "learn" to draw.

>>93645525
You can't actually believe this

>>93645697
Drawing is an innate talent that many people have, and if you have it you can produce beautiful art with little instruction.

Writing well is extremely difficult, and requires years of training and experience.

>>93645525
>Writing well is infinitely harder than drawing well.

*This is what writers actually believe*

>>93645079
Holy shit, this same autist just spams this meme list every fucking day now.

Guess what faggot? Everything on that list except seasons 1-4 Samurai Jack and MEGASXLR are fairly overrated, and 4 of those shows are championed primarily by waifufags. Delete that list and then yourself from life.

>>93645780
You probably missed the "well" parts in your autistic ragefit. If you remove those then yeah, it's obviously the other way around.

>>93645780
I don't know anon, I can appreciate many artstyles and even find the charm in more amateurish stuff but bad writing is still bad.

>>93645824

You're trying to justify the existence of writers in a medium that doesn't need them. And guess what? If you have to come up with drastic arguments to explain why they're important, then they're probably important.

You can make a cartoon without writers. You CAN'T make a cartoon without artists.

Loser.

>>93645079
I'd add Transformers Prime to that.

>>93645894
You can make a shitty, unwatchable cartoon without writers. (And that's just about all we got in terms of animation this decade, at least so far.)

>>93645980
No toy commercials allowed, sorry anon.

>>93645894
Not him but while you CAN make a comic or cartoon without a writer that doesn't mean it will be enjoyable or make a writer's job obsolete. Show me a comic or cartoon without dialogue that isn't slapstick and can even remotely hold up to something with good writing. >L-LOSER!
kek, someone's feeling bitchy today.
>>93645980
Good taste, severely underrated TF series with the best Starscream and Soundwave.

>>93646010
>And that's just about all we got in terms of animation this decade
That's an exaggeration.

>>93646045
The only good cartoon this decade is Gravity Falls

EVERYTHING else is just painful to watch, sorry.

>>93646010
>>93646044

All the classic WB and MGM shorts, all of the great Disney films of Walt's era, all done in the age before writers started stinking up the industry.

We don't need em.

>>93646057
>GF was the only good cartoon
>EVERYTHING is painful to watch
Thankfully, your opinion isn't fact.

>>93646024
then remove TMNT.

>>93640965
I will never know for certain if JL:A is even decent because its timeslot is buried in the early morning and sandwiched between that unfunny """""show""""".

>>93646044

If you're gonna call people autists or bitchy, then don't get your panties in a bunch when someone throws insults back you, junior.

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>>93640725
It was legitimately good. A couple years ago when Cartoon netowkr burned all the episodes every weekday in october, we had /co/ threads that would max out.

>>93646080
So everything in animation should be either repetitious slapstick or something literally only small children could still enjoy? Gotcha.
>>93646138
Did you miss the part where I said I wasn't the guy he responded to? Is reading comprehension a foreign concept to you?
>junior
Whatever you say kiddo.

>>93646084
Every other cartoon this decade is painful to watch, yes. I literally have to force myself to sit through them.

>>93646103
You're mistaken, it's the 2003 version. Not the toy commercial 1987 one.

>>93646288
The 2003 version was a toy commercial, and also shit.

>>93646227

>Wah wah I've been proven wrong

Keep embarrassing yourself, little man.

>>93646080
You know what? We don't need stunt doubles!

There are a select few actors in the industry who can do their own stunts, so that clearly means all actors can and should do their own stunts! That's a very realistic expectation, and teamwork never solved anything anyways!

>>93646345
>If I meme enough my arguments will come true!
Enjoy your summer small man.

>That Anon who always posted about the petty power play bullshit at CN and the like was actually right

>>93646318
Nope, it was great. Just watched it for the first time recently, seasons 1 to 5 (the actual show) were brilliant, nobody cares about the later ones.

>>93646367

>false equivalency

You are a child.

>>93641498
what? They don't have script writers, but they still have people writing out the general outlines of each episode. The storyboard artists can fill in the dialogue that carries the story.

>>93646475
Why not tell me how it's a false equivalence instead of just calling me a child? I'm willing to hear your argument.

>>93646080
What if you want animation to be something other than a series of slapstick gags or adaptations of pre-existing stories (which were written by writers, by the by)?

>>93646430
It's alright, a really standard action cartoon for it's time (which were all pretty great then) but it held a consistent quality for 5 seasons with is worth admiring. I just like to try to get a rise out of anons that champion it as one of the best things to grace a television screen.
>season 6
The most bizzare thing imaginable, wasn't it? Levels of executive meddling we wouldn't see again until the Suicide Squad movie.

>>93642065
>hate Ian now?
If that's the case, I'm pretty sure the "hate" just comes and goes, since people have been mad at him for never finishing RPG World.

>>93646537
>a really standard action cartoon for it's time (which were all pretty great then)
Feel free to name one that isn't already on my list.

>>93646531

If your show relies so much on complex dialogue and not animated visuals, then you might as well do it in live action.

The alternative is anime (which is script driven) where there is next to no animation of any kind because the focus is on the writing. Anime, which favors the static image, is not the directions animation needs to go in.

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>>93640529
>The real problem was that WB and CN didn't give the show a chance

>>93646587
What if none of the characters are human?

>>93646587
The major advantage of animation over live action is that it doesn't age. That has nothing to with complexity.

I want well-written shows that don't age, is that too much to ask?

>>93640701
>least essential

im retarded and you still make me feel better

>>93642949
What the fuck do you mean?

>Wirt makes an a accurate depiction of a stressing introvert teenager
>He's insecure about everything he does, he doesn't have a single idea of whatever he is doing
>Nobody his age hangs with him, so he is used to being alone and distanced.
>He's a bittered person during the series, so he doesn't laugh often like Dipper.
>If someone insults him, he will just roll with it and say "guess I am", on the other hand with Dipper, he will try his best during the whole episode to proof otherwise.

>Greg's autistic behavior makes sense because of his young age
>He isn't a shipfag like Mabel
>His main moments doesn't revolve on shitty crushes episodes.

Wirt and Greg's relationship it's the opposite to Dipper and Mabel.
>If Mabel does something "funny", Dipper would laugh with her. But when Greg does it, Wirt would tell him to fuck off, or just ignore him.
>Dipper and Mabel are together because they like each other. Wirt just goes with Greg because he has no choice, since he's in charge of him.
>If anyone fucks up, Wirt will always blame on Greg; but Dipper would be the one who assumes the responsibility.
>If Greg ever asks Wirt to put him in front of something Wirt wants, Wirt would tell him a 'no' without thinking.

>>93643234
Dipper's crush on Wendy was constantly reused for episode plots, and the only reason to keep Wendy as part of the main cast; Wirt's crush on Sarah definitively wasn't his main motivation once they entered to the unknown, in fact, that was one of the main reasons why he wanted to stay in the unknown.

>>93646694
>im retarded and you still make me feel better
This is a hilariously great insult for some reason. I'm so stealing it, sorry anon.

>>93646618
I know this reference but have you seen the current state of CN?

>>93646557
Sticking with action cartoons around 2000~2005?
>X-Men Evolution
Only thing bad about the series was the rushed ending.
>Genndy Clone Wars
Basically the action of Samurai Jack in a condensed form.
>Static Shock
Great series overall
>Justice League/Unlimited
It's action was fine at best, but it's writing was top tier. There's a script for an episode that was never made featuring MM's struggle with a cookie addiction, it was so enjoyable and well done I sometimes forget that I only read it rather than watched it on tv.
>The Batman
I'm not the biggest fan of it's hip Bruce or juggalo Joker, but it has it's fans and is an excellent example of action cartoons of it's time.

Plenty more than that as well, and I don't feel that TMNT 2003 particularly stands out among them. I feel the bulk of the 2000's was weak in comedy compared to the 90's but action was strongest then.

>>93645525
As someone who has worked in the animation industry as a storyboard artist and has had to fix nononsense scripts, and been fortunate to have worked off of solid scripts, you really don't know.

>>93645765
Show us your DeviantArt.

>>93647058
I'm not sure which side you're taking here actually

>>93647085
I don't have that talent, sadly. Which is especially painful because I enjoy pretty rare cartoons and such and would like fanart for them but virtually none exists, and because of that I can't make my own.

>>93647123
Get off of 4chan and practice anon

>>93646972
The Batman is actually the 10th show on my list (that I can't fit into the square), but as for the others... haven't seen X-Men, but all of the animated Star Wars as well as the entire DCAU are so fucking overrated it's ridiculous. I would still rate TMNT 2003 above those.

And it's telling that 4/5 of those are mainstream capeshit, and all 5 are based on some of THE most popular franchises in the world. (No, TMNT isn't one of them.)

>>93647173
It's innate, did you not read my post?

>>93647267
Yes.

>>93647267
>I'm lazy.

All I get from your diatribe.

>>93640529
This series is funnier than Wabbit

>>93647317
I've tried.

>>93647058

People will watch a cartoon with good animation and bad writing.

No one will watch a cartoon with good writing and bad animation.

The art will always be of greater value than the writing when it comes to animation.

>>93647541
I agree, and it's possible to have good animation AND good writing.

>>93647246
I don't think you're in a position to talk about things being overrated with a list like that.

>>93647541
Um, it's quite the opposite actually. Great writing can salvage mediocre animation, but the reverse can and will destroy a cartoon.

>>93647594
No, I'm pretty sure I am. Those cartoons are gold.

>>93647541
>No one will watch a cartoon with good writing and bad animation.
Do you consider South Park's animation "good?"

>>93647541
>No one will watch a cartoon with good writing but bad animation

What is 12oz Mouse?

>>93647634
Something that nobody ever watched?

>>93647541
>No one will watch a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, no one!
And no I'm not implying that the writing for those were ever great, but they relied for more heavily on it than they ever did animation quality.

>>93647650
Then why do people still talk about it. Also most of adult swwims show's had bad animation but people loves those.

>>93647614
Most of your list was probably decided on after you browsed TVtropes for a week. Courage in particular is woefully overrated.
>HOW DID THEY GET AWAY WIT DAT!?!?
>WTF THIS IS A KIDS SHOW??? XD

>>93647680
Nobody ever talks about, not even on /co/. I've literally never seen a thread about it.

>>93647699
No, it was decided after I had watched so many cartoons I'd probably need multiple spreadsheets to track them all properly.

Though you may actually have a point about Courage. I put it on the list not for the horror aspect (though it is rather innovative for a cartoon) but for the emotional episodes, especially in the later seasons. But overall it may not be all that amazing, and I'm considering a replacement.

>>93647722
Guess that would happen if you only visit during the summer.

>>93647768
I've lurked here for months now!

>>93646828
Is it any different than the past 5-10 years?
>Networks sabotaging their own shows
>Cartoon Network sabotaging anything that isn't AT or has AT in its pedigree

Granted, this Scooby Doo is a different example because it was a comedy show. The token "sabotaged by CN" shows were action and/or DC properties.

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>>93641245

Hey now, let's be honest here

Let's take the "best" television show (based on its above 9 rating on IMDB) considered by many, Breaking Bad, and the "best" animated show (again, based on its above 9 rating on IMDB) considered by many, Over the Garden Wall. Breaking Bad had 5 seasons, strong cinematic and thematic structure, professional cinematography, and was generally consistent to boot. Over the Garden Wall had better art direction, and utilized composition (both musically and through visuals) more, but it was a mere 10 episodes. One season. Add to that, it was amateurish in its cinematography, often the case with animated works.

Over the Garden Wall (OTGW) was consistent and thematic to boot (I would argue that the cinematic elements did lack at times when it had to play the "kid" role), but could it have kept it up for 5 seasons, 13 episodes at least? I think not. And if these episodes were not animated works, would they be as impressive? I also think not.

They both were on sleazy networks hellbent on jewish trickery and nickle-and-diming every artistic point of production, but both also had the backing of different companies to mediate costs.

Despite the similarities and technical potency, however, there's not getting around one key reality; compare BB to OTGW directly using the same criteria, and not in relation to their respective mediums, and OTGW is clearly the more amateurish production.

tl;dr: Don't even try to compare the two because what's technologically advanced in the field of animation is essentially technologically amateurish for the field of live-action.

>>93647767
You should honestly reconsider even having a "greatest cartoons ever" list and parading it around as a fact since it's based entirely on your opinion.

A good chunk of TT is cringeworthy weeb shit with the few good moments merely aping standard shonen fare, Duck Dodgers isn't that funny in general (tell me 5 things you remember from it worth a laugh), Avatar had an okay first season and a predictable deus ex ending along with arcs that dragged on too long, I'm not even sure why you keep Kim Possible on there at all, and Gravity Falls is the poster child of overrated modern shit in general.

Leave out waifus and nostalgia goggles the next time you rewatch these shows, you may find that they won't hold your interest all that well anymore.

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>>93647868
Excuse me?

>>93648059
Hmmm... how about no, anon. I've rewatched TT, DD, Avatar, KP, and especially GF over and over. They all fully deserve it.

Courage is actually the only one on that list I haven't rewatched much.

>>93648039
The cartoons with the highest-rated episodes on IMDB are Gravity Falls and Avatar IIRC, though. How about comparing those instead?

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>all these people arguing about wether writing or art is harder

I'm a writefag and an artfag. Like, I actually script out my shit before I draw it.


Writing is essential for pacing, and for a cohesive uniformed vision with proper themes and stuff apparent to the viewer. A good comic scripted writes it with the different panels in mind, and in a way, it's closer to screenplay writing than novel writing.

That said it's only hard putting the stuff down on paper, and after that it's a matter of editing stuff down or up.

As far as art it's also important because it's the main language the viewer is going to see the world through and it's your job to not only make good images, but images that say the idea they're meant to say, with an after esthetic that builds on the themes of a script. It's what breathes life into the foundation and the reason people buy comics instead of books.

That said the only hard part is putting down the initial sketches and after that you pretty much just work through the he different layers on autopilot. Except coloring, that's a little trocky, but if you're not a retard you'll be doing something that isn't invasive complex and distracting for a story the reader is supposed to flip through.

So honestly it's closer to videogame production. The writers are the game programmers, and the artists are the game engine. A game engine is the magic that makes good coders able to make a functional game.

Also animation has notoriously bad writing where the only outliers are still pretty mediocre as far as writing goes, get some taste outside of other cartoons and anime you fucking plebes, start with the fucking greeks. The art is shit too, most of the time and is derivative and incestuous of other animation instead of reality, which is why people give more of a shit about anime than cartoons. Learn how to draw, Start with the fucking greeks.

>>93645114
Every artist from Bob Ross to Leonardo Da Vinci would disagree with you.

The magnitude of your wrong-ness is so staggering that I don't have an insult big enough to give you. Triple-nigger isn't harsh enough a word for how fucking ignorant and stupid you are.

>>93648408
>how about no
To what, leaving the waifu/nostalgia goggles off? K, and you're list is still factually incorrect btw.
>especially GF over and over
Damn, are out a masochist or what?

>>93648531
See, this guy gets it

>>93648547
Gravity Falls is a fucking masterpiece, and nearly everyone outside the /co/ hugbox knows that. It's just a joy to watch from beginning to end. And unlike Avatar (which is probably its closest competitor in quality), it has no bad episodes whatsoever.

>>93648534
On a similar note, look at imaajfpstnfo's work from 2010 and compare it to now.

Sure it may make some anons sick if not outright emotionally scar the weaker among them, but there's no denying his vast improvements over the years.

>>93640701
Go count your dick

>>93640529
And nothing of value was loss.

>>93648656
Ah, wow, at least I know not to take you seriously anymore.

This blows, just further shows how current CN is cancer

>>93648823
>Another victim of the /co/ hugbox.
Sad, really.

>>93647541
What? The reverse is true in almost every single fucking instance. People would much rather watch Archer than A Troll in Central Park.

>>93648860
The only thing sad is your autism.

>>93648937
>liking the best cartoon(s) ever made
>autism
Whatever you say, man. Whatever you say.

>>93645167
>He was kicked off for Bolt because he didn't like the changes Pixar's brain trust was handing down for American Dog.
They agreed to make his story then raped everything in it until it was unrecognizable.

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>>93640529
from the thumbnail I thought that was asuka

>>93645117
>Fuckin Peter David started demanding that the original page art, when returned by the publisher, should be split between the writer and the artist (because the artist was just a tool to express the writer's vision).
If you can't remember who the person was here don't lecture. It was years before David hit prominence and the writer was Claremont who cited an already existing policy at Marvel. The matter was settled by Shooter.

>>93647650
>I'm not a newfag, I've been here all summer!

12 oz. Mouse was routinely used here as an example of the kinds of show [as] needed to make more of. I don't think it was one person posting this for a year without any disagreement.

>>93649017
>BESTEST EBAR!
Your list exclusively panders to 2000's babies with the exception of Garbage Falls, sorry but your wrong and deep down you know it as well.

What made you drop The Batman? Why are you only now considering dropping Courage? Will your tastes truly never change? Why is this list an evolving one, yet things only seem to be getting removed? The doubt is already there listanon, just let it fester.

>>93649179

>12 oz. Mouse
>Dude weed lmao: The Animated Series

The person doing the most damage to your argument is you.

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>>93648452
Gravity Falls (GF) had 2 seasons, and in the interest of "lore", left open many a plothole for the sake of a mystery that was never fully solved. Comparing GF to Breaking Bad (BB) would be unfair, considering GF's faults lie directly in executive meddling that wasn't quelled by external production companies (from word of Alex Hirsh), unlike BB's was (for a more live-action example, look to The Walking Dead).

Now, with Avatar, we might have something there. Nick gave the writers enough elbow room to create, and the funds to make it happen with accuracy, meaning executive meddling was essentially nonexistent. Avatar lasted for around 4 seasons, so it proved it can go toe-to-toe with being consistent in terms of composition and thematic stability. Where it faults, however, is its general use of American (and shonen, to a point) clichés to tell an Asiatic story; Asiatic culture being very ingrained with "the greater good; bad and good both make man". This is a major literary error that we don't fault Avatar for because it was an action-oriented animated work that needed good guys and bad guys, but when comparing it directly to BB it crumbles the story's poignancy. Breaking Bad particularly used good direction in projecting a grey area to its characters. This does wonders for character development and overarching, so when your character's main greyline struggle of not wanting to take a life away is, at the last minute, whisked away by a talking turtle, you can see how that is amateurish.

The cinematography (not the choreography) is also pretty bland at times, but again, animation, so you don't fault it.

Avatar is a step in the right direction, though, and if more animations built off of what foundations and fundamentals it did have we would be better off.

tl;dr: You'd be better off copying pic related.

>>93648363
I take issue with the way these schedules tabulate the percentage that movies occupy.

>>93642925
I just thought if he's as well-trained as he keeps saying he is he might have a better grasp of sentence structure and spelling.

>>93649213
>Avatar lasted for around 4 seasons
Welp, there goes all your credibility. Sure was fun reading your posts while they lasted, though.

>>93648531
>most of the time and is derivative and incestuous of other animation instead of reality, which is why people give more of a shit about anime

Yes, because there wasn't a generational change in anime copying off KyoAni after K-On! succeeded, or any similar movements in previous decades.

Look, I don't subscribe to idiot concepts like "all anime looks the same" but for fucks sake admit their industry is as incestuous as ours. In an industry as investor-backed as theirs, radically new and different only gets backed if the creator's already known (for dutifully producing safe, commercially successful material in the past).

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>>93642503
Not surprised GFfags are just as self-entitled and full of ego (and shit) as SUfags and other big-show fandoms.
It is overrated shit with a terrible second season.

>>93649213
>left open many a plothole for the sake of a mystery that was never fully solved
Oh, really? What wasn't solved? Literally everything was explained, outside of minor trivia like Dipper's real name.

>>93649213
>Nick gave the writers enough elbow room to create, and the funds to make it happen with accuracy, meaning executive meddling was essentially nonexistent. Avatar lasted for around 4 seasons

You shat the bed twice in only 2 sentences

>>93649283
>minor trivia like Dipper's real name
It's Kane

>>93649315
It was revealed in the journal, you moron.

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>>93643315
Nick's newest show, Welcome to the Wayne, seems to be Board Driven, pic related.

>>93649279
At least SUfags admit there's shit they don't like to the point that the "fandom" on tumblr regularly looks for things in it to be triggered about (BLUE DIAMOND ISN'T INDIAN?!?!), but GFfags just seem to enjoy sitting in the burning wreckage.

>>93649382
Because GF is literally as perfect as a cartoon can be, as far as we have seen at least.

>>93649416
Are you also the faggot that defends Mable?

>>93649507
I'm not a faggot.
Unlike you.

>>93649524
>No U
Alright, but is that a yes or a no?

>>93649545
Are you asking whether or not I defend Mabel? Then of course, she's such an amazing character.

I also defend every other GF character who is commonly attacked for bullshit reasons, though.

And you're still a fucking faggot.

>>93649588
Alright, so your autism is a Barneyfag-tier plague on this site and your meme list is your banner then? Good to know.

GF sucks ass btw, all that build up with the symbols only to use it as an opportunity to shit on Stanley's character yet AGAIN for the sake of last minute drama? 10/10 writing right there, what a wild ride.

>>93649250
Breaking Bad episode count: 62
Avatar episode count: 61

If you want to be pedantic, then yes, Avatar only had 3 seasons not 4, and I was wrong. Considering the episode counts, however, you can understand how one could assume there was an extra season using only his prior knowledge. Sorry in any case.

>>93649283
Off the top of my head, why would Stan be so willing to allow two kids he loves very much to stay with him in the first place and fuck around with the supernatural journals if he knew what they entailed?

>>93649291
Nick were willing to provide a $1 million per episode budget. If you have any evidence to prove Bryke was held back by executives in the same manner as Hirsh then, by all means, please bring it to my attention so that I can redact that statement, and question why more writers can't work within limitation?

>>93646269
>I force myself to watch stuff not made for me.
Then you need a hobby, or how about a job? You know, then maybe people will value your input

>>93649545
You know you're arguing with a manchild the moment he resorts to "no u" arguments. He's probably going to call your mom a slut next.
Ignore the blatant GFfag shilling his mediocre cartoon.
Yeah, that show isn't utter shit, but it is not a masterpiece. For God's sake, it is drawn in the Tumblr style, everyone knows a masterpiece would look like An animated Rembrandt

>>93649685
>all that build up with the symbols
autistic memery that actually DID activate a prophecy anyways, Hirsch just can't win with you fuckers now can he
>only to use it as an opportunity to shit on Stanley's character yet AGAIN for the sake of last minute drama
Stan saw it as his brother's insane experiments causing untold horror, the same brother WHO COULDN'T BRING HIMSELF TO SAY THANK YOU AFTER 30 FUCKING YEARS. Sorry anon, you're really, really fucking stupid if you think Stan's hesitation and subsequent rage wasn't justifiable.

>>93649213
If we're comparing animated shows to live-action shows then

Adventure Time = The Walking Dead
Horse Show = Game Of Thrones
Gravity Falls = The X-Files/Twin Peaks

>>93649708
>Off the top of my head, why would Stan be so willing to allow two kids he loves very much to stay with him in the first place and fuck around with the supernatural journals if he knew what they entailed?
Because otherwise, the show would have never happened. Yeah, I know. It shows how poorly conceived and written was that overrated garbage.

>>93649762
I know, it's just mind blowing that the Mablefag and "Best Cartoons Ever" fag are the same person.
>>93649765
Stanford being shit doesn't make Stanley less shit here, not that your autism would allow you to understand.
>I CHOOSE NOW TO DEMAND A THANKS!
>EVEN THOUGH THE WORLD AND MY GRANDCHILDREN'S LIVES ARE ALL ON THE LINE!
kek

>>93649708
>>93649788
You dumbasses, it's the whole point of Stan's character, he even says it several times: "This sounds like something a responsible parent wouldn't want you doing. Good thing I'm an uncle!" or "Set something on fire for your Uncle Stan, sweetie." or the whole "I have to all but abuse Dipper to get him to man up" thing that took up like HALF AN EPISODE.

>>93649836
>I know, it's just mind blowing that the Mablefag and "Best Cartoons Ever" fag are the same person.
What's really mindblowing is that you think you know all this stuff about the show better than I do, yet you consistently misspell one of the main character's names. Why is that, anon?

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>>93649771
That Adventure Time and Gravity falls comparison is apt (although, to compare the satirical absurdism practiced by Lynch to the sitcomical mystery presented by Hirsch (spelled his name right this time) is either a gross misunderstanding of the two creators talents, or a sad reality in the quality differences between animation and live-action.) but as someone who has never watched either MyLittleHorsees or Game of Thrones, may I please get a clarification on what makes the two comparable?

>>93649864
So he doesn't care, but he does care? Sounds like shitty sitcom writing to me, not comparable to Breaking Bad in any instance. Maybe compare it to M*A*S*H?

>>93649836
I'm guessing you hate Mabel for giving up the rift?

Newsflash anon, people do crazy shit when under extreme stress, not all of it smart.

>>93649708
>Nick were willing to provide a $1 million per episode budget. If you have any evidence to prove Bryke was held back by executives in the same manner as Hirsh then, by all means, please bring it to my attention so that I can redact that statement, and question why more writers can't work within limitation?
They welshed on giving them a fourth season and only told them as they were making the third already. The show never had a fourth season you complete dunce.

>>93649929
>but as someone who has never watched either MyLittleHorsees or Game of Thrones, may I please get a clarification on what makes the two comparable?
Cheap reliance on nudity to keep viewers watching

>>93649929
>So he doesn't care, but he does care?
He thinks they should be able to handle themselves, but if something truly, insanely dangerous comes up, he will be there to protect them. It's practically parenting 101, just somewhat more extreme (which comes from Stan being far more of a risk-taker than most).

>>93649898
Well for one I don't regularly carve her name into my arms like you do listanon.
>>93649950
That's part of it, but she's always been the most selfish and obnoxious part of the show while coasting on KAWAII RANDUMB GIRL XD WAFFLES mode for people to like her.

>>93650009
Show us on the doll where your older sister made fun of you in front of her friends

>>93650021
Sorry, I don't rp as Dipper either buddy.

>>93649771
Gravity Falls will never come as close as X-Files or Twin Peaks. Both live action shows are much better in all regards: pacing, writing, characters, etc.
>>93649864
So he loves them the way a drunk deadbeat father loves his wife and his children? Geez, what a great example of a man.

>>93650053
>Gravity Falls will never come as close as X-Files or Twin Peaks.
Never come as close to what? Is there something even better!?

>>93649954
You either quoted the wrong part of my post, or actually believed that, by Nick not giving Bryke a 4th season on-the-fly, despite giving him more than enough episodes to consider Avatar a 5-season show (cut the episodes-per-season count shorter) and tell the full story they wanted with all the explanation they wanted, that proves that the writers were limited narratively and held back by executives?

Look, I've already apologized for my error in season count, and justified why the error was made in the first place, but if you couldn't be bothered to properly read the post to begin with, then maybe it is you who is the "complete dunce".

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>>93650080
>Is there something even better!?
LMAO what a delusional fag.

>>93650104
>by Nick not giving Bryke a 4th season on-the-fly, despite giving him

stop while you're frantically reading wikis

>>93650104
Not that anon, but it seems you are completely unfamiliar with Avatar's ridiculous production backstory. I suggest you educate yourself, the info is mostly on Tumblr as of right now. Come back once you have gained this knowledge.

Oh, and for the record, Gravity Falls ending was Hirsch's decision due to fatigue. In fact, he wanted it to end at season 1, but because he's a decent human being and not a dick like /co/, he agreed to do 10 more episodes, was denied and forced to do 20 instead, finally just over 21.
Avatar was the one of the two shows that had serious "corporate" issues, mostly with the marketing and scheduling though.

>>93650137
I'm not surprised you weren't able to tell that post was making fun of him.

>>93650053
>So he loves them the way a drunk deadbeat father loves his wife and his children?
No, did you even read >>93650000

>>93650262
Well despite its "ridiculous production backstory", it still managed to get 61 episodes and tell a complete story (with convenient ending). Does that mean it's better than Breaking Bad, or that it wouldn't be considered amateurish if it were compared directly to Breaking Bad? No, it doesn't. The story still stands. I have NEVER heard of Bryke accusing Nick of not letting him and the team tell the story they wanted, and if that were the case then why even go back to do Korra?

Let's not forget why I even brought up production in the first place, because as the OP excerpt shows, executives are the first ones blamed for lack of quality.

>>93650313
Yes, and? He is wrong, the show makes it look as he uses them in abusive ways, just to suddenly change and become the perfect role model. Jesus it's like parenting here means a bad caricature of real parenting.

>>93650594
I don't think Bryke ever thought of it that way, but that's not important anyways because they ruined both of those shows themselves to start with.

The point is that, objectively, Nick treated Avatar pretty fucking terribly (and LOK just abysmally).

>>93647541
Not a fan of [as]?

>>93642119
>I'd take Stranger Things over Gravity Falls or Over The Garden Wall any day.
I like Live action series more than Western cartoons but liking that trash more than GF and OtGW?

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>>93650646
So then it's settled.

Avatar is more comparable to The Walking Dead, and there is absolutely no animated Western work comparable to Breaking Bad.

Hell, I'll make it easier for you, give me one animated work comparable to Hill Street Blues? Burn Notice? The Rifleman? Perry Mason? Columbo? The Blacklist?

>>93647541
Explain South Park and Bojack then.

>>93650777
Iron Giant

>>93650735
Stranger Things does the 80s kids adventure aesthetic correctly while Gravity Falls and OtGW both fail at it.

Also, no annoying characters like Mabel and Wirt's brother.

>>93646494
An outline is not a script you stupid faggot.

>>93651346
>Muh 80s nostolgia, so is good!

>>93651346
OtGW and GF aren't supposed to be pure 80s references like Stranger things.
Also. ST is basically a predictible mix of IT, Stand by me and etc... Instead of wasting your time with that you should watch IT and Stand by me.

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>>93651688
>he making this strawman while defending GF and OtGW, which are 80s as fuck

You're quite the faggot.

>>93646345
>>93646080
>>93645894


Stop being a huge fucking faggot and realize that while animation doesn't need writers, they can make it better if they're good, fagtron.

>>93651762
How is OtGW 80 as fuck? also GF is filled with 90s references.

>>93651762
GF and OtGW aren't TOTALLY rip-offs..i mean... "homages" of better old movies.

I'm the only ones that thinks that the acting of that woman in stranger things was totally exagerrated and cringy?

>>93651752
>OtGW and GF aren't supposed to be pure 80s references like Stranger things.
They pretty much are if you've catched all of the references or listen to Hirsch and McHale talk about the influences for their shows. For fucks sake, GF had an entire episode dedicated to John Carpenter's The Thing.

>Also. ST is basically a predictible mix of IT, Stand by me and etc
There's not much It in ST outside of a slingshot being used and the font for the logo. Have you ever read It?

Stand by Me, not at all.

>Instead of wasting your time with that you should watch IT and Stand by me.
No, because the adaptions for both of those stories are dogshit. Stranger Things wad much better at capturing that tone.

>>93651346
>Also, no annoying characters like Mabel and Wirt's brother.
Please, Winona, Blackie, fattie, Slut sister and the bullies were annoying as fuck.

>>93651803
>>93651833
see >>93651880
What 90s references? There's a few nods to Twin Peaks but that's it.

>>93651880
>No, because the adaptions for both of those stories are dogshit. Stranger Things wad much better at capturing that tone.
Then read then again instead of wating your time in stranger things.

>>93651905
Not really. They all actually got character development unlike Mabel or Greg. And any conflicts they have with other characters makes sense.

>>93651982
That didn't stop them from being annoying and most of those characters development was really fast and non-sensical.

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>>93651930
Or I can do both, you queermo.

>>93652022
Examples?

The 80s weren't even good desu.

>>93652052
Yeah we should all go to /tv/ and just shitpost about black people, women and liberals all day

>>93652053
The bully becoming best friends with the creppy guy for...reasons when he was actually totally right about the fact that he was being a total creep taking pictures to other people.

>>93652076
There was a pop culture explosion in the 80s that modern day companies can't stop milking. So it had to be good before it got corrupted.

>>93652153
It wasn't nearly as good as they make it look. Tv is filled with 80s references because the writters/creaters were teens/kids and the Nostalgia is full of bullshit.

>>93651905
>Blackie
Reminder that he was in the right about the elfen lied baldie. I agree that he was fucking annoying tho.

>>93649771
>>93649929
I'd say the Twin Peaks thing is a forced meme. Sure Hirsch said it was an influence but all the allusions in GF are superficial. It has far more in common with Eerie Indiana which came out the same year and Hirsch used to name check before he caught on to the fact that most people don't even remember it existing.
But it's right there. Relatively normal kids look into the weirdness of a small town with strangely oblivous inhabitants.
Hirsch was much more likely to be affected by EI as kid than TP. And so much of the show draws from childhood influence. Though not to the deep psychological degree that a lot of people on /co/ make it out to be.

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>>93645114

>>93652823
>Eerie Indiana
That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw Gravity Falls. It even has a journal by an unknown author documenting the strange happenings in that town.

I'm kind of glad to hear that he wasn't shy about giving credit where credit was due.

>>93653834
Shame he still can't make decent videos

>>93649361
It's Script driven: The writers are credited separately from the storyboarders (all script driven shows use storyboards)

>>93653834
>went from being a sperg about cartoons to making decent cheesecake
unJUSTed?

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>>93654658
Where is the GOAT?

>>93640529
>so they buried it out of ego.
fuck. this right here describes pretty much every media problem, period, not just scooby. fuckin execs who throw darts at a wall to pick content, then fuck it up and refuse to be held accountable so they replace the bottom of the pyramid instead of the top

>>93640701
Gald people ubderstand this simple fact

>>93644463
chuck was the writer, but the scripts were in his head seamlessly being turned into storyboards. he didn't need paper...his brain was the paper, but he was still COMING UP WITH NARRATIVE

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>>93646694
>im retarded and you still make me feel better

>>93655068
Well The Warners of course.

>>93653834
The autism is evolving.

>>93654906
>decent cheesecake?
I've seen the quality of the porn he makes
it's retardedly bad

>>93653834
>anatomy makes him look like an alien
>hair looks like a helmet he glued to his scalp
>ear and neck both look like separate parts of his head
>nose looks retarded as always
>mouth is way to fucking big & goes up past his nose
>has no cheek bones so the entirety of his face is one straight line
>he's either wearing the thickest turtle neck I've ever seen or he's hunched like shit in the first inch of his back
>shoulders look like shit
the more we learn, the more we forget
at least 2 & 3 show some basic understanding of human anatomy. 3 even has his stupid fucking chin
too bad his animations still suck

he's still a creepy pedo, though

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>>93647541
>Transformers RiD
>nice animation and designs but abysmal writing
>most transformerfags steer clear or only watch for the waifu and the dinosaur

>Transformers Rescue Bots
>baby flash animation for literal babies fantastic writing
>half the fandom was eating up every episode as they came out
>its the longest running Transformers show.

>>93642503
>>93642949
>this shitposting faggot is still here after getting roasted in his thread for days
Masochistic much?

>>93644373
>The writer likes planes
>He doesn't know how planes work and has never built one before, he just knows that he likes them and that makes him qualified to lead production.
>The writer tells those who actually know how to make the plane how to make the plane and will not understand why his demands are impractical or impossible, because he does not know how planes work.

A writer would probably know how to make an actual analogy instead of just substituting a random word like "airplane" instead of "cartoon".

>>93640529
>>93640570
>>93640594
>>93640616
>>93640649
>>93640672
>>93640696

This guy tells a pretty good "woe is me" story, but in my experience in the animation industry, I've found that writers are self0important, ignorant, overwhelmingly plentiful, and only get in the way.

Good riddance to him. The animation industry has been moving away from writers gradually for several years now, with board-driven productions on the verge of being the rule rather than the exception. And those numbers are only going to rise moving forward, progressively banishing writers one series at a time.

My suggestion to any "writers" who want to break into the animation industry: Learn how to draw.

>>93640529
This is the company that made the show that's killing Cartoon Network right now, so it makes sense.

>>93654658

>debunked

Fuck off, TMS fag.

>>93645114
>the difference between an amateur and a pro is that the pro made a million more mistakes then the pro.

>>93640529
>>93640570
>>93640594
>>93640616
>>93640649
>>93640672

>I don't know how to draw but I want to tell everybody who does how to do their job.

I can see why this guy wants to be a producer so bad.

>writing is easy anyone can do it
>I could write something good I just don't want to

>>93658691

Drawing is colossally more difficult, technical and time-consuming than writing. Drawing also incorporates all the storytelling prowess of writing.

So yes, if you can draw then you can write, but it doesn't work the other way around.

>>93658634
*then the amateur.

It's too early for this shit.

Regardless of what field you persue, their is going to be difficulties. It's the same with everything really. Life is just really hard like that.

>>93658745

If it's so easy then why isn't everything g well-written?

>>93658769

because there are just that many retards out there in the world

>>93654535
Oh sorry dude, thanks for the correction.

>>93658769
Because what you consider "well-written" is actually just intracity and meticulously planned with a consistent foundation, polished almost exceptionally in order to perfectly capture the goal it set out to accomplish, the story it set out to tell.

Here's where the problems with storyboards start. They either
>don't plan shit
>don't care to look over their plan
>don't keep to the foundation
>don't polish the story
>don't actually have a story to tell; had a situation and is trying to make a story out of that
>don't strive capture the goal of the story, or what it's based off of

It's easy, but tedious, and most "writers" and storyboarders alike will say "fuck that work, isn't there some book or anime I can copy off of?"

>>93659135
It's hilarious how you're trying to define good writing without even mentioning characters.

This is more evidence writing well is so much harder than drawing well, it's so elusive it's difficult to even define.

>>93659135

Is that why Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Clarence and so forth are so poorly paced that episodes end abruptly, practically mid-sentence, because they ran out time rather than came to a natural narrative endpoint?

It's just boarders drawing funny pictures and giggling to themselves until they hit the last box and then "oh well, that's 15 minutes, guess we'll stop here".

Board-driven animation is shit storytelling, mate.

>>93659231
That's exactly what I'm saying. No planning goes into the work, and so the writing faults.

>>93658459
You know lots of people say debunked.

>>93660041
>You know lots of people say debunked.

Yyeah, but only TMS fag posts that exact same info graphic, says "debunked" all the time, always replies to being called out by saying "lots of people say that word", and will always, ALWAYS respond to any post that calls him out because he's so crippled with autism that he can't help himself.

But by all means, TMS fag. Keep posting.

>>93660041

Hey TMS Fag, I thought you said you were quitting /co/ forever the last time you got called out?

How about you be a man of your word and fuck off forever? You promised.

>>93660119
>>93660133

I'm surprised you didn't use "seek help", but I gues you got called out too many times on that one.

The easiest way to tell it's TMS Fag (you) is that TMS Fag is autistically incapable of NOT replying to posts that call him out as being TMS Fag.

The fact that you keep replying and cannot stop yourself, in addition to your posting style and vocabulary, is further proof that you are TMS Fag.

So fuck off.

>>93651762
>>93651803

Yes, both are 80s:
>GF = 1980
>OtGW = 1880

>>93660937
This post made me chuckle.

>>93647381
>Scooby Doo is currently funnier than Looney Tunes
How and why have we come down to this

>>93661374
We haven't, other anon is stupid. Both shows are completely unfunny.

>>93645023
>What if someone has great artwork but just can't write?
>Then they can learn.
>You don't go into a storytelling medium without any ability to express your ideas through plot and dialogue. That'd be like trying to start a restaurant with no idea how to cook.
Explain why your argument is true but this one isn't. I'll wait.

>>93658417
>This guy tells a pretty good "woe is me" story, but in my experience in the animation industry, I've found that writers are self0important, ignorant, overwhelmingly plentiful, and only get in the way.
>Good riddance to him. The animation industry has been moving away from writers gradually for several years now, with board-driven productions on the verge of being the rule rather than the exception. And those numbers are only going to rise moving forward, progressively banishing writers one series at a time.
>My suggestion to any "writers" who want to break into the animation industry: Learn how to draw.

Hey, Steve Worth... screw you.

>>93640594
>so I was basically left in my office churning out great scripts without any control over making sure they were executed correctly like I had with Zac. If Zac wasn't sure about something in the script, he'd walk in my office and ask me what I meant.

Pretty sure anyone else who was hired to the job just did not give a shit of the scripts were working or not. Animation is filled with people who are genuinely apathetic to their own job by constantly cutting corners and saying
>It's fine because it's just for kids and kids don't care about quality.

>>93661493

You are the Obsolete Man.

And honestly, the only writers who rely on the crutch of an artist to express their ideas for them, "animation writers" or "comic writers", aren't very good writers to begin with.

If they were truly talented wordsmiths, they'd be writing novels. But they're so bad at it, they need artists to develop their ideas for them.

>>93657730

Chris Sanders has forgotten more about storytelling through animation than you will ever know.

>>93647541
You've got it completely ass backward. It's nearly impossible to convince anyone but an animation nerd to watch something solely for the animation, but everyone will gladly watch something that looks like dogshit but is written terrifically. This is why 99% of adult animation has an animation budget of 3 pieces of string and a wad of chewed up gum; nobody fucking cares but you. This is what happens when you have no interaction with normies and base your opinions on how they will act on your own autistic hobbies.

>>93641978
Writers are....fucking dicks. They are assholes who think of themselves as the single greatest cog in the wheel of entertainment and they demand to be congratulated by everyone for everything at all times and all they really accomplish is getting just about everyone else to hate them. Producers do not ever want to fuck with a writer or even speak to them, artists cannot stand them, directors fucking hate them.

It's gets to a point where anyone who sees an opportunity to piss off the writing staff, do it. Also the voice, artists, etc anyone who is talent driven view writers as someone with no actual skills or capabilities that weaseled into their position somehow and is drawing money from the project fo no actual reason. Anyone can be a writer, there is nothing sacred or special about the writing teams and everyone but the writing teams understands that fully.

>>93640616
>The WGA is about to go on strike again because the studios and producers don't want to give writers the tiniest, little bit more (in fact, while Hollywood is raking in record profits, writer salaries are going down). It's the oldest story in the book (ironically, because "books" need writers).


This is what ruined tv/movies in 07'. And now the greedy fucks are going to try it again. Get ready for nothing but reality shows, and a return of the reality show movie......

>>93661749
Read up on the situation child. Shows are shooting less episodes so that's more downtime while contracted for the same period of work.

They are asking either pay adjustment or some elimination of exclusivity contracts.

>>93640649
>but I'm so sick and tired of haven been treated like crap at that place, being basically out-right told they didn't want me there - BUT - they couldn't do the show without me,


This right here sums up the writing staff of a show. Everyone cannot stand them, and only wants them to remain in their writing closet, do their job, hand over the script then do not bother anybody else again. Just sit in the writing closet and write scripts.

Directors cannot stand a writer emerging from their rooms and giving "notes" much less their ever constant running to producers and whining to them to go yell at directors or boarders.

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>>93661616
>If they were truly talented wordsmiths, they'd be writing novels
>Some of the best comic writers in the industry are also novelists and screenwriters
Hey man, fuck you