The Man of Steel

Birthing matrix was retarded and business man Lex is a dates 80s concept, but overall it's alright. John Byrne is great and I think the miniseries as a whole gets too much shit

>>93623186
>John Byrne is a great artist
Fix'd.

When is Byrne supposed to off himself? 2020?

>it's a "/co/ shits on something because it hates the artist" episode

Virtue-signalling cucks, the lot of you.

>>93623186
>Lex is a dates 80s concept

That was Maggin and fuck you.

>>93623186
>gets too much shit
I think people hate on it for "Marvelizing" Superman, which was really going on all around DC post Crisis. The soap opera was creeping in and the Silver/Bronze Age trappings were on the way out or just gone.

>>93623186
Lex being a business man hasn't really dated itself.If anything it's more relevant now. The fact is business men isn't really an occupation that can be dated. Just a style of it.

>>93623287
Wow. KYS first please.
>>93623750
DC always does that though.

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>>93623604
I love John Byrne the artist. He's one of the top 5 comic book artists of all-time, IMO.

He's a shit-tier writer who can't do a year's issues without injecting his shitty fetishes and hang-ups into his work. He's obsessed enough with underage girls and violence/degradation of adult women that it injected itself into his Big 2 work, and got him removed from the premises.

Hopefully the editors who let that shit through got themselves shown to the door as well.
I'm all for women superheroes taking their lumps just like the guys, but Byrne's rapey shit crosses a line.

Then he gets his own X-Men with Hookers and Blackjack, and you get shit like this.

>>93623882
I think he has written some good comics, but man his creator own stuff gets really weird.

>>93623882
>got him removed from the premises
Nah, what got him blacklisted from DC was publicly trashing Superman Returns on his forum and telling his followers not to pay for it while he was still working at the company.

I forget what the final straw for Marvel was

>>93623912
He has Superman, SUPERMAN mind you, tongue kissing a juvenile Lana, doing a (mind-controlled porno film with Big Barda, has Faora offering to suck Superman's dick if he won't kill her.....
No. Just no.

>>93623969
Reed Richards pimp-slapping his mind-raped wife to "snap her out of it" (while she's dressed in bondage fetish), Doc Samson punching out a female reporter to steal her helicopter....
It just goes on and on an on.

>>93623969
>No. Just no.
Yeah he has his weird shit, he's a creepy guy. I'll still read his She Hulk or Fantastic Four and enjoy it.

>>93624148
There's a lot of books I'd love him on as an artist, but there are so many better writers out there, who can avoid putting their Id into their mass-consumption works.

>>93623770
I just think the whole "evil 80s business man" schtick doesn't work for Alex because he's more of a scientist for me, and that character trope was part of the zeitgeist at the time.

>>93624627
>avoid putting their Id into their mass-consumption works
Boring. If they're interchangeable they're skippable.

>>93624750
I want to read a story about a great character, not someone's sordid fan-fiction they wrote for their own boner.
There's a time and a place for all that.

>>93623186
Lex as a businessman is way more interesting than Lex as another mad scientist.

>>93624780
>There's a time and a place for all that.
Every Wednesday if I was lucky

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>>93624873
Superman is not a character who needs to be written as a degenerate, no matter how good it makes Snyderbabys feel about themselves.

>>93624701
well I think the best way to do it is just combine both anyway, I like the businessman aspect because it starts him from a place of power and can challenge Superman on a moral level. As long as he still comes up with the stuff that fights Superman I think it's fine.

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>lets Marvelize Superman
>lets get rid of all his cool mythos
>but introduce them again later anyway
>Gee Superman is boring so lets get rid of Clark and make Superman and Clark kent basically the same person
>Gee Byrne is obsessed with being a real American Citizen so lets make up the birthing matrix
>lets make Krypton a terrible place to live

art was nice. and the issues were all actually well done...just not a good reboot for Superman.

>>93624904
>kissing your childhood crush at her own request because she thinks you'll never be together
>"""degenerate"""
>>>/tumblr/

Take a drink every time the Superman part of an issue starts with Superman flying around thinking about stuff.

>>93625131
I didn't think that was so bad but considering the rest of Byrne's work...its a bit questionable

>>93624904
> written as a degenerate
> mind controlled
> propositioned but turned it down
How were those degenerate?

I'll give you Generations, as everything post 1992 by Byrne can and should be ignored.

Also I've never seen the movies, I just don't care. So lay of the "Snyderbaby" shit just because I don't have some sacred view of capes. Something like DKSA is way more enjoyable than anything Geoff Johns will ever write.

It made Superman a better character by giving him actual personality, and it made Metropolis a real place finally, but individual issues could be boring, and Superman sometimes angsts a little too much. Also the backgrounds were meh. It was still good that it was made.

>>93625131
Time-traveling back as an old man to tongue your grade school crush is creepy as fuck, even if she "consents" to it.

>>93625018
>Marvelize

Everyone is saying this, what does this entail exactly? Is he Peter Parker-like?

>>93625313
Describe Superman's personality ala Byrne.
What made Byrne's Metropolis feel real to you?
And yes, the actual issues were dry as fuck when they weren't being creep-tastic.

>>93625291
>DKSA is more enjoyable than Sinestro Corps War

Wrong

>>93625131
>>kissing your childhood crush at her own request because she thinks you'll never be together

Ironically they did end up together in the end.

>>93625382
You do know that he didn't go back in time specifically just to kiss her, right?

>>93625291
>I'll give you Generations, as everything post 1992 by Byrne can and should be ignored.

Nah, I would extend it further to maybe 1996 since his Batman/Cap was out that year.

It had Maggie Sawyer's best look.

>>93625497
At one point I owned the entirety of Byrne's big 2 work.
I understand the context of the scene completely.
Of course he didn't specifically travel back to suck on grade-school Lana's tonsils.
But the fact that he took advantage of the opportunity is creepy as all get-out.
>>93625291
>Also I've never seen the movies, I just don't care. So lay of the "Snyderbaby" shit
Why turn /co/ into a house of lies?

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>>93625390
I think it was an editorial decision to make Superman more "Marvel". Pretty sure its been mentioned in actual interviews with people involved.

>TFW we never got to read Moore's Superman reboot pitch, Maggin's Superman Reboot Pitch, Frank Miller's Superman Reboot Pitch, and most distressingly Gerber's Superman reboot pitch.

>>93625497
I think he means it's like Byrne stacked the story to get to that point. Like when Superman killed the Phantom Zone villains. He had to make Zod, Faora, and Quex-Ul (using him is weird because he was technically not entirely a bad person Pre-Crisis; even had another redemptive arc by Gerber) completely stupid and murderous to the point where they killed every living being on Pocket Earth to give Superman a reason to execute them.

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Anyone else think Jimmy's mom was kind of hot?

>>93625727
>Gerber's Superman reboot pitch.
I thought Gerber and Miller were in it together? I know they had a whole Trinity pitch

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>>93625865
hmm...that actually sounds right. Like Maggin/Bates pitched together (would have liked Maggin to just become editor or superman line though)
I just remember an old interview with Gerber and he mentions it...but then goes on to say "I don't want to talk to much about the pitch incase i ever get to use some of the ideas"
I get why writers say that...BUT I WANT TO KNOW THE PITCH!!!!!
kills me every time a writer says that. I don't really like Mark Millar all that much but Id love to see what is in those two notebooks filled with Superman ideas

I wish someone would storytime it on /co/.

Personally, I prefer 'Secret Origin'

>>93625930
>those two notebooks filled with Superman ideas

Tom Scioli said he has enough ideas set out for two years of Super Powers and a New gods graphic novel

>>93622117

It's my favorite Superman origin story.

Also it triggers people who get angry at Bruce and Clark fighting as there first canon interaction post-crisis is antagonistic.

>>93623882
>He's a shit-tier writer

He literally wrote the second best run on the Fantastic Four, only followed by Kirby with Lee.

>>93623969
>mind-controlled porno film with Big Barda

Don't even pretend that shit isn't hilarious!

>>93626288
Nostalgia goggles or are you drunk this early?

>>93626333

Don't just ask me, most people will say his run on Fantastic Four is one of best runs, if not the best barring Kirby's. I'm not being controversial with that statement.

It would be like someone saying Miller's run on Daredevil isn't the best run on Daredevil.

>>93626167
I really like Tom's work but I assumed he just makes stuff up as he goes along . Hope DC gives him a book though.

>>93626494
With any luck he'll get moved to that new imprint. Unless I'm misunderstanding him he said that Way originally approached him for a full comic series, but DC were the ones that put him on just a back up.

>>93626494
>I really like Tom's work but I assumed he just makes stuff up as he goes along .

Going by the commentary in the GI Joe/TF crossover I don't think that's the case.

>>93623696
It was by Wolfman who made it Canon.

>>93626399
Byrne has never written anything as good as Miller's Daredevil. He was a Johns tier thrashy writer.

>>93625727
Because the Superman office editor at the time was former Marvel editor Carlin.

>>93625930
Gerber hated Byrne's revamp, so I think that it would've gone in the opposite direction of a marvelised Superman.

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>>93627133
>>93627133
Gerber's Phantom Zone mini was GOAT. Judging by that his "Superman reboot" would have been great and wouldn't have thrown out the past mythos.
His final DC Comics Presents was a wacko blood bath really but it actually would set up a new "status quo" fairly well if DC picked up reboot.
He got rid of the Phantom Zone characters "permanently" (DC really wanted Supes to be the only kryptonian)
Mr.Myx /bizarro world were basically gone (DC wanted to get rid of some of the goofier aspects of superman though they actually brought them back fairly quickly)
the kryptonite dust covering the earth is a decent (for comic books) excuse to depower superman (which DC wanted)

could easily have led into a "fresh new take " on superman without an actual reboot.

>>93622117
>Birthing Matrix
>Krypton is a planet full of boring pricks
>Strip away the mythos just to slowly regurgitate it later
>Have Zod and the Phantom Zone Criminals kill the Superboy pocket dimension Superboy sacrified his life to save and have Superman execute them
>Clark thumbs his nose at his Kryptonian heritage to be "just a boy from Kansas".
>Superman is so weak conventional weaponry hurts him
>Superman and Batman meet up just to be dicks to one another and fight fucking Magpie

It sucked dick.

>>93627133
>Gerber hated Byrne's revamp,

Oh shit, I forgot about that and the Destroyer Duck thing. No wonder Byrne threw Quex-Ul into the Zod role.

>DC hires marvel writers for superman
>Kirby characters show up all the time now because its the only thing Marvel Writers care about.

>>93623927
Quesada cancelling his X-Men comic, causing him to flip his shit, supposedly.

>>93623186
Luther as a businessman is not dated at all. In fact it's more versatile than mad scientist.

>>93626399
Byrne's FF was good, but Miller's Daredevil was THE definitive run for that character. DD had some great stories pre-Miller, but nothing as definitive.

>>93629394

I'm not saying Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four is as definitive as Miller's run on Daredevil, I'm not even saying that Byrne's run on Fantastic Four is as good as Miller's run on Daredevil.

I'm saying that one proclaiming that Byrne's Fantastic Four run is one of the better Fantastic Four runs isn't a controversial statement, much like saying Miller's run on Daredevil is the best run on Daredevil also isn't a controversial statement.

>>93626288
Fuck off. Second best run is Walt Simonson's.
>argumentum ad populum
I hate modern /co/ so much.

>>93629351
nah
BusinessMan lex was cool for a few years. Got played out pretty quickly

>>93622117
Was the Snyder movie based on this?

Storytime?

>>93630348
Not really, although one person once took a jab at Snyder's Krypton by saying that it looked like John Byrne's Krypton inked by H.R. Giger.

The only thing from Byrne's run that he might've taken from was the idea of Superman killing Zod, but even then it's not the same.

>>93623927
No, what got him blacklisted from DC was him being attached to drawing the prequel for Superman Returns, and then dropping the project just as the solicitation hit. When the solicitations were out his board was wondering why he took the project, since months before he was upset about the directions Superman Returns was taking and banned all discussion about it. So he announced he was leaving the project, which was a big no-no since there'd be only two months till it's supposed to hit stores and they'd need an artist to take his place.

>>93627473
>Clark thumbs his nose at his Kryptonian heritage to be "just a boy from Kansas".
There is literally nothing wrong with this.

>>93624701
Lex having to rob banks to support his evil schemes is ridiculous. Him having money gives him more time and possibilities to act against Superman.
As long as you combine the evil business men with the evil scientist it makes all the sense in the world and it isn't dated either. There will always be evil business men in real life, evil scientists on the other hand aren't a problem as long as they have no money.

>>93627473
>Strip away the mythos just to slowly regurgitate it later
That's a problem with reboots not with Man of Steel as a story per se.
>Krypton is a planet full of boring pricks
The Kryptonians are dead, any characterization they have doesn't have a big influence on the present day.
Krypton being like America, but better, isn't a good story either. Especially since no matter what the story is, they had the huge of flaw of ignoring the doom of their planet. I'm not happy with the Byrne version either, but I prefer a fucked up civilisation ignoring the doom of their planet, to a civilisation busy with partying
>Clark thumbs his nose at his Kryptonian heritage to be "just a boy from Kansas".
You just wrote that you didn't like his Kryptonian heritage from that time, so why is Clark thumbing up his nose at it not a good thing? He didn't like that version either.
>Superman is so weak conventional weaponry hurts him
Again: Reboot. You start a character weak, and let him become stronger

>>93631801
>entire modern day interpretation of Superman is based on one man's fetish, while ignoring any past characterisation.

>>93633131
"boy from Kansas" =/= fetish

the best origin is the one from new52 by morrison.

best of all worlds.

>>93623211
>John Byrne was a great artist

Fix'd again.
Back in his FF days or even MoS he was GOAT. These days his shit looks like he's got Parkinsons.

>>93633869
It was his Murika fetish creeping in. He wanted to make Superman American by having Lara give birth to him on American soil. If he was given the chance to write the Wonder Woman reboot, he'd have made her completely give up on her Themiscara roots and made her American. The guy's hardline views on adopted children show in his writing.

>>93635048
You can't let someone who has never read Superman before read that origin and expect them to like it.
So no that doesn't work either.

>>93635439
And making Krypton like America in the Silver Age wasn't Merica fetish?

I don't like Byrne's Krypton, I was happy when they changed it, but at least he tried to make it alien.

I'm glad they got rid of the Birthing Matrix, but letting Lara land on earth with Kal-El wouldn't have been such a bad idea. Let her live, and he has someone to learn about Krypton first hand instead of hearing stories by a computer.

>>93635480
I have read all origins stories of Superman, Morrison does the best one for sure.

Of course, plebs are plebs, such is true that are people who like byrne abomination.

>>93625546
This

>>93625313
Superman had a personality before Byrne, and making Superman constantly doubt himself led to so many shitty issues not just in the run but in every run after. They took the most optimistic character and made his signifying character trait depression.

>>93635547
If Lara lives, then having adopted parents really doesn't have much of an impact. Superman doesn't need to be the only Kryptonian, but he at least needs his original parents dead.