Is Lucifer a Mary Sue?

>>93571745
>jobs to a guy that jobbed to fucking romans of all people
>mary sue

A little but that's because he's very close to the bible lucifer that is pretty "mary sue" by himself.

>>93571745
Nah, he was a huge asshole that got BTFO in the middle by a deck of cards and got bitched out of the universe at the end.

>>93572405
no he's fucking not, what the fuck are you talking about?
>>93572453
BTFO by cards?

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>>93571745
Both he and Satan are deader than a doornail!

>>93572903
>BTFO by cards?
Yeah, he had to get help from a little british girl.

>>93571745
Is the author writing scenarios purely to live vicariously through the character and boost their own self-esteem, i.e. having them show up in a story they're normally not a character in and steal the victory, or romance the author's waifu/husbando?

If not, it ain't a Mary Sue. It's just "overpowered". That can be its own thing. Let it be its own fuckin' thing.

Kinda. He was never really set back, and any time it appeared he was set back some bullshit caused by something he did in the past would always show up and save him.

>>93573408
>Let it be its own fuckin' thing.
Why? The term has already caught on.

God literally loves this guy no matter what

>>93573442
When he got beat by the cards it was another angel that decide to save his ass. And when he had his duel in hell he was saved by the dude ruling hell. Even at the end he got jerked around by Fenris. He actully spends a good portion of the series making it by the skin of his teeth.

>>93572903
Handsome,smart,charismatic,very polite(in the bible he's never rude to anyone), manipulator,respect free will.

Near every other version of Lucifer is a barbarian monster that loves heavy metal,this one don't contradict the bible except he getting tired of being Satan.

>>93571745
Does Neil Gaiman think hes Lucifer?

>>93573660
No, if he did he would have had Lucifer fuck Death.

>>93573640
In the Bible the devil is a petty shitheel. Have you even looked at that thing?

>>93571745
I believe the word you're looking for is overpowered,dip shit.

>>93573767
See>>93573459

>>93573782
I see you're a retard.

>>93573782
By your logic Islam and cancer caught on so its a good thing

>>93573795
Why?

>>93573459
Because fuck you, newfag. Words have meaning. Letting them slide into whatever faggots want them to be isn't how we roll here.

>>93573739
>He seduce Eve to eat the fruit intead of scaring her
>he likes to debate with god in the old testament
>Offers food to jesus and try to "reason" with him
>already control the world and keep it from going to anarchy since mortals reject god orders by nature

He's pretty rational in the bible, he's not the mindless deformed warlord that you see in cartoons.

>>93573812
>>93573832
What difference does it make what the accepted term is for the same concept? Why does that bother you so much? 'Faggot' used to mean 'bundle of sticks' but here you are demonstrating its current commonly accepted meaning.

>>93573739
>>93573854

all of those things are different beings that were retconned into being satan

also satan and lucifer are never specifically named the same being

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>>93573892

>>93573892
Well you're a faggot who rams a "bundles of sticks" up his ass.

Why is the new run so shit?

>>93573854
>already control the world and keep it from going to anarchy since mortals reject god orders by nature
He's doing that? Then why do all the Christfags hate the guy?

>>93573459
Because society STILL needs a term to criticize teenage girls' fanfic.

If "Mary Sue" is stolen and mutated, then what do we call the first thing?

>>93573955
>>93573923
>can't even explain themselves
I knew you wouldn't already I just wanted to be sure.

>>93573966
Christians are supposed to be powerless rebels in this world, that's why they're always being killed and can't change how the world works.

>>93573964

because its not Mike Carey.

also isn't it over already?

>>93573905
That's is Lucifer of most christian interpretations, many sects believe that there is not even a literal Satan.

>>93573994
Whats there to explain?I ain't getting thru your under age skull,so fuck it you "bundle of sticks".

>>93573854
what the fuck are tou talking about?
that was the serpent and Stanaa respectively, """"""lucifer""""" (or as he is called in the bible "morning Star" since Lucifer was an incredibly minor Roman God) is ONLY ever mentioned as stupid asshole who fought God out of pure ambition and naturally failed
that is as far from rational as any decision can possibly be

>>93573905
99% of what people "know" about the character now is from fanfiction like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno

>>93574058
yeah, I think anon is just a retarded Satanist. or perhaps Sam Keith

>>93573973
This you fucking retard>>93573994

>>93574053
They're all the same being and most christians agree.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-serpent.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/who-Satan.html

>>93574053
the "morning star" person has no explicit connection to Satan, christians all just decided to assume his story was supposed to be an allegory to explain Satan's origin

>>93574108
>"most Christians" is literally one website
>Changing the goalposts from "In the bible" to "What most Christians believe"
bravo

>>93574108
most christians take big liberties with what's explicitly stated to make it fit a popular headcanon

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>>93574127
>>93574121
>Most christian schoolars are wrong about the bible and I'm right.Trust my personal interpretation of the bible that I don't even believe in.

>>93573973
>>93574089
Mary Sue. The concepts are similar enough to carry the double meaning. In reality the only problem with writing a self-insert is if they are hypercompetent, power fantasy. The only reason to point out a mary sue is if they're being Mary Sue-ish.

>>93574172

>I blindly accept things that I read online and won't allow any form of deviation from that

>>93574172
>Guy who literally praises Satan asserts other people aren't real Christians
>Still sites literally one website as "Most christian scholars"
bravo

>>93574172
I was to busy arguing with the Mary Sue peoples to pay attention to the argument you guys are having.

I am gonna say you lose just by posting that chode and the fedora meme reeks of Leddit.

>>93574172
>Christian "scholars"
I live in America, anon.

>>93573832
words do not have inherent meaning, we assign them meaning. I don't understand how people can be so pretentious about made up strings of letters.

Mary Sue means "overpowered" if that's how people use it.

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>>93571745

If he was, would that diminish your enjoyment when reading his comics?

>>93574193
They're not similar enough though.

A character can be hypercompetent or overpowered without being a fantasy for the author to live vicariously through and by allowing "Mary Sue" to degrade and be used to describe long-established characters who are doing what they're SUPPOSED to be doing, it loses all fucking meaning and lowers the collective ability to have an intelligent god damned conversation about what's wrong with a character who IS a Mary Sue and why it's wrong..

>>93574301
>>93574292
this seems like a good example, using a super-cool character a mouthpiece to communicate the author's personal views.
That's just annoying, and well...sort of the opposite of a strawman? a "Golden man" so to speak wherein you build up a perfect character so he can spout your views and since he's so cool your views would be cool by association.
Which is sort of an empty argument, innit?

>>93574338
>a mouthpiece to communicate the author's personal views.

How can you tell though? That suggests that the things Lucifer says and does in the book would normally be out of character for him and are only happening because of this author.

How would you expect the main character to behave in a book about a Paradise Lost-esque version of Satan, and how is this not that?

>>93574301
If you're ACTUALLY worried about intelligent conversation then throw out the word Mary Sue all together because the creators identity at best creates context not a reason in itself for an overpowered character to suddenly becoming shitty.

>>93574338
You've never even read Lucifer have you you fucking moron? Kill yourself.

>>93574409
Criticism at the fanfic level is an important part of the early stages of learning to write. We need terms and context for that stuff.

>>93574484
What the hell? Everything can be criticized the same fucking way.

>>93571745
Please stop using terms when you clearly have no idea whatsoever what they mean.

>>93574525
The entire reason I'm advocating for keeping the terms "overpowered" and "Mary Sue" seperate is because the problems with a Mary Sue are actually extraordinarily rarely seen at the professional level, and most people who accuse published characters of being Mary Sues are mistaken and guilty of hyperbole.

It's a technical term that exists SPECIFICALLY to point out flaws common to AMATEUR work and aid the learning process.

>>93574620
Although that said, Mary Sues are kinda common in Big 2 work because most comics writers are untrained, and work-for-hire on pre-established characters is essentially a form of paid fanfic.

>>93574620
Alright you've convinced me.

>>93573640
You are confusing paradise lost with biblical cannon.

i dont blame you, its much better written.

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>>93574058
A million times this. Everybody forgets that a lot of "common knowledge" about christianity stems from the fucking fanfictions people write about it. Paradise lost satan is !not the biblical satan.

>>93574620
Mary Sue doesn't have to be overpowered. Being a wish fulfillment and self-insertion is more important.

>>93575571
Lucifer is sort of inserted into the Sandman universe, but fails to meet the other Sue requirements. He isn't instantly liked by everyone, he gets kicked around like a tin can from time to time and his series is largely built of whole cloth anyway. Rey is a much, much better example of a Sue since she's essentially a perfect character inserted into an existing story, replaying the troubles Luke had only effortlessly overcoming every obstacle and being instantly liked or valued by every single person she meets. Lucifer on the other hand has tons of enemies and they often cause him an awful lot of trouble.

>>93574085
>Taking Satan seriously = being Santanist
Going full retard I see

The biblical serpent in the garden of eden found in genesis isn't the devil/satan/lucifer. He's just a talking animal like balaam's donkey.

God allowing the devil into the garden of eden makes no fucking sense and rather defeats the whole point of the original sin being human hubris. It's not "lol the devil made me do it", the Serpent is just an asshole trickster

>>93575712
Did Morningstar and Constantine ever meet? I think they're the smartest characters of DC as a whole.

>>93575294
>biblical satan
Biblical Satan is a metaphor not a person.

>>93575789
Constantine has made the devil look like a retard on several occasions, including tricking him into drinking holy water and then sodomizing him with a broken bottle to save his friend's soul

>>93575789
Not in Lucifer's first series, but I can't speak to the new Lucifer series or other stories. I know Lucifer showed up in the Demon comics at some point but he looked and acted quite different.

>>93575789
Constantine cameos for a few pages during the first few story arcs. A bunch of magical people/beings are being drawn to the gate in to the Void in Lucifer's basement, but Constantine realizes he is probably out of his depth and leaves before someone else decides to attack him

>>93575891
Contanstantine devil is not Morningstar

>>93575712
I never said Lucifer was Mary Sue.

That said a character having enemies doesn't detract from them being a Mary Sue, look at the hundred of trashy Isekai that are on /a/. The self insert MC is usually hated immediately by at least 1 faction in the world, and some are only loved by their harem and extended cast (the only people who matter).
Although honestly for Lucifer the biggest argument about him being a Mary Sue is that he very clearly is shown being the bad guy and even in the wrong multiple times. You can even argue that Carry and Gaiman clearly disagree with him at some points.

>>93575789
Surprisingly no.

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>>93575911
I think this was his only page.
Comicvine says that Morningstar appeared during Carey's run on Hellblazer, but I don't remember if they interacted or not.

>>93575891
That was the first of the fallen, not Lucifer Morning star. FotF was the angel God made to rule hell before Lucifer took over. After Lucifer leaves hell FotF takes over again.

FotF is the one that makes deals with people's souls and etc, Lucifer sees that as foolish comedy because souls can't be bargained with unless someone tricks the soul into believing it can be owned.

>>93573739
>>93574053
What the fuck are YOU talking about?Satan talks with Jesus in the new testament and he's was clearly not a "petty shitheel"

>>93573905
>all of those things are different beings that were retconned into being satan
Prove it

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>>93576054
Here's a page showing Ennis directly separating the two figures.
I think I remember that First of the Fallen was supposed to be "Lucifer," but then Gaiman introduced him at the same time, leading to different authors trying to explain why two beings with similar functions can exist.

>>93576132
See I actually liked that split, the idea that there was an angel meant to rule hell before Lucifer is interesting and would help explain how sometimes Satan and Morningstar are talked about like they are different beings.

I also like the fact that it seems to make beings like Lucifer at a higher level than the FotF because they have completely different views on the soul.

Lucifer is really Jesus, he just isn't aware of it until post-crucifixion.

>>93572453
>got bitched out of the universe at the end
Isn't that exactly what he wanted, though? Was it gifted to him? I can't remember, but if God gave him the way out then you might interpret it as a loss because it wasn't strictly on his terms.

>>93573854
The snake wasn't satan.

>>93571745
How do I get into Gaiman's universe? What do I read first?

>>93577509
Yeah of course, it was just a talking snake with legs.

>>93578216
First thing would be The Sandman. Sandman has a ton of miniseries and ongoing series that spun out of it, including The Dreaming and Lucifer. I haven't read The Dreaming, but people seem to sort of like it.
If you want to read Lucifer and don't feel like finishing Sandman (but you should), you can read up to and including volume 4: Season of Mists. Lucifer starts a little after that. You will eventually spoil events from Sandman though if you keep reading Lucifer.

>>93578645
OK gotcha! Thank you.