Let's talk about this cover, /co/. Should it have been published?

>>93562522
The first issue was honestly funny and entertaining. But I think that was mostly due to how surreal and stupid it was. Plus the art was pretty bad and that shitty overlay legitimately made it harder to read. And there's no reason for it not to be published. It's hardly the most offensive thing that's ever been printed.

>>93562522
How about you story time it and we can discuss it after.

>Should it be published
Should what be published, the cover or the comic? Be more clear and stop mumbling, anon.

>Yes, the cover
I don't know, I'm going to need context. Story time it or mention something controversial in comic other than the cover.

>>93562758
The issue isn't even out, nimrod.

>>93562805
Then what the fuck do you want to discuss?

>>93562825
The cover, you stupid or something?
>durrr, the cover can't stand on its own
Yes it can, a comic book cover is suppose to encite a reader and convice them to give that particular issue a shot. This isn't a fucking book.

>>93562886
Yet your're still arguing with me and not raising anything other than questions of "should."

>Should OP have made this thread?
>Should OP stop being gay
We could do this all day.

I'm just busting your balls. But really though,
raise some points and I'm certain /co/ would be willing to debate discuss and chat about them.

>Should it have been published?
The cover? It's pretty shit and I can understand how it would frustrate someone, but if that's what Chaykin wanted to do then why not.

>Should this SERIES have been published?
Not for me to say. I have #1 but haven't read it yet. Chaykin is allowed to tell the story he wants to tell, and Eric Stephenson agreed to publish it at Image. He's not there to edit and censor it.

Comics can't all be power fantasies and safe spaces, of course nasty shit is gonna come up. If you don't like it, don't support it. Especially in a case like this where the cover is probably intending to offend and stir shit - by having a fit on social media over it you're only reacting the way Chaykin wants you to.

>>93562522
What an unfortunate name to have.
It'd be like a Black Guy being named Coon.

>>93562522
Plot twist: the guy was actually a muslim for once.

Ironically in response to all the outrage, Image is giving the first issue a second printing.

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How many Muslims have been killed in hate crimes in the US since Trump was elected?

I know an Indian guy got killed in a bar and then two non-brown people got killed sticking up for some Muslims in Seattle

>>93563014
His nametag says PAKI, of course he is a Muslim.

Chaykin has never given a fuck, and will never give a fuck.

Brandon Graham is getting dragged into this whole discussion about this online because he's not denouncing Chaykin and image like other people in his circle.

>>93562964
The first issue has some pretty fucking ugly art in it

>>93562522
>when you have an autoerotic asphyxiation fetish so bad that you jerk off until you rip off your own dick

>>93563062
Obviously not enough to run news stories about.

I heard about a muslim girl getting killed but the guy who did it turned out to be hispanic or black so that got crushed pretty fast

>>93563343
Hispanic with a baseball bat. Don't drag black people into this.

>>93563428
Sorry, bro, couldn't remember which protected race he was from

>>93562522
What is this about?

>>93563428
>Don't drag black people into this.
Into what?
I sure as shit don't like Muslims, wouldn't surprise me if other black people didn't either.

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To storytime or to not storytime...

>>93563258
>and image
To be fair, it's not just Graham. Most people in the comic book industry, especially those that get their stories published by Image, understand that Image doesn't edit shit, only prints it.

Not decrying Chaykin will definitely get him in trouble though.

>>93563512
You should totally storytime it.

Image should polybag the cover the way they do some NSFW variants. Otherwise who gives a fuck, just another edgy thing in comics, plenty of those around.

Also someone should just repost Gaiman's essay on standing up for the right to publish reprehensible material, it's always my go-to on these issues.

>>93563343
El Salvadorian. The chick was with a group of Muslim men who were bugging him till he got out the bat. They ditched her to be raped and murdered, for context El Salvadorian s are not big people.

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>>93563678
Alright, whatever, it's not like I have anything better to do right now.

Be forewarned though: this is one ugly fucking comic

>>93564984
The overlay's are so fucking awful

>>93564955
Sin city was ugly as fuck, which was very suitable because he was telling ugly stories about terrible people in a terrible world. Chayin does the same shit here. Although I have no clue where he's going with it.

on a scale of 10 to 100 how funny is it watching people just now learn how image works? chaykin's just doing this to get a rise

they should polybag it or something, it is nsfw.

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>>93565021
I personally loved the visuals of Sin City. This shit just looks amateurish, which is frankly baffling for a veteran like Chaykin.

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>>93565062
I saw someone asking Simone how to read her new Image book without giving money to Image. It's like, fucker you're talking about piracy, get the fuck off your high horse.

>>93565021
>I have no clue where he's going with it.
It's not on purpose, this is just how he draws ever since he came back to comics after leaving for TV. He used to be great, also the colors do him zero favors

This shit is far removed from American Falgg, Blackhawks, The Shadow, or his Heavy Metal stuff

>>93565155
I don't have a clue where he's going with the narrative either. I mean the art might be just him falling apart and going more abstract like Frank Miller's holy terror, to extend the metaphor.

>>93562522
With the reaction to this series, have people never encountered Chaykin before? How new to comics are they?

>>93565127
Yeah I mean Chaykin's not getting a page rate, he only makes money if this book makes money.

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>>93565317
It's comics twitter, so... very. There was a twitter account that claimed to be all about "introducing women and POC to comics" or some such shit and they didn't even know who Neal fucking Adams was.

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>>93565356
That too. Some people legit don't know how Image works, but I feel like others are just being intentionally obtuse to push a particular narrative.

>>93565359

>they didn't even know who Neal fucking Adams was.

Neal Adams is weirdly underrated despite being so insanely influential.

this isn't making excuses i'm just thinking about comics.

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>>93565443
It was just such a bizarro moment. I can understand not being familiar with like Woodring or Tomine or whatever (even though they're pretty entry level), but an influential Big Two artist? Seriously? Yikes.

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Fuck, misclicked and skipped a page. This goes before >>93565542

>>93565072
I'm reading it, and the visuals are part of the comedy, if you catch the intent properly. It's very funny.

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>>93565668
I don't think it's funny desu, but to each their own. I certainly don't think it should be outright banned.

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>Left wing faggot!
Alright, fess up, which of you was it?

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>IT
>GETS
>WORSE

>>93565420
I don't think they're being obtuse. They're trying to change the way image works so that they get to approve or disapprove.

Chaykin has been giving zero fucks since before the Reagan administration.

>>93565668
What's the intent ? I see it as trying to represent a cloud of information and confusion, but it ends up looking kind of sloppy.

And as far as the cover and the bitching about the transbeating, it seems bizzare to me, that a bunch of fuckers who care about discrimination are raging so hard about it. I mean there's discrimination out there beyond being misgendered at the motherfucking fertility clinic. And theres NOTHING he's depicted that hasn't actually happened..

>>93565829
>>93565802
Jesus Christ talk about sanctimonious.
It's like a /pol/tard but for the other side.

>>93566016
Part of me thinks that he's polishing up his liberal credentials as he knows people will lose their shit, but he's always been like this.

>>93565829
So long as they think themselves righteous, they will continue to fail

After all, someone who is righteous does not need to change

>>93566131
General question for the thread (not directed at you really):
Has anyone read the Barack the Barbarian book that he did?

>>93566131
>>93566016
I can already bet that this has been posted on /pol/, seems like prime bait material for them

>>93566188
I saw the cover, and almost picked it up. I should have though. It was him and Larry Hama right?

>>93566189
This is the mentality they want to foster, though. Nothing needs to change.

/pol/ laughed itself sick when Pelosi was appointed minority leader

>>93566304
Well fuck me. I just realized that I confused Chaykin for Hama on that. It was only Larry Hama who was involved in it. I swear I saw Chaykin's name on it at one point, but that must have been something else.

>>93565542
It isn't that surprising when their entry to comics is Lumberjanes

>>93565072
>pulling him towards the shower by his dick
sensiblechuckle.gif

>>93565127
Did Gail point that out to the person?

storytime some old Chaykin, he used to have some talent
people who are getting butthurt have probably never heard of the guy

>>93565802
I can't stop laughing
literately what's wrong with his Challengers of the Unknown? its fun, like Loeb's was

Abhay Khosla's take on the Chaykin stuff:

http://twiststreet.tumblr.com/post/161681404055

>Comics Nerdery Nonsense: Oh brother– I just read some Howard Chaykin self-glorification thing over at Bleeding Cool. It was all this old-man political gibberish, but somehow inspired by or trying to sell allegedly transphobic comics he’d put out…? I don’t really understand what all’s going on with that– not really issues I can claim to be an expert on or anything. But what struck me was the the tone. I have sucked down so much of the tone of this essay over the years– this “I’m the Last Sane Thinker, You Pussies” He-Man talk that nerds use to nerdsplain to each other.

>Listen to this bit: “So it’s all too clear that H.G. Wells got it right. The Time Machine. Eloi and Morlock. One is eaten, the other eats. Look it up–it depresses me too much that neither side of this divide has any clue of what I type to bother explaining.” This is like every dipshit after the election. “Have you ever heard of this book 1984? LOOK IT UP.… Have you heard of this band The Beatles? Look it up– you know what my favorite Beatles album is? The Best of the Beatles.” When you interact with nerds, that’s pretty much how any nerd with a job in a creative industry just writes as a default, like they’re the headmaster of some underfunded elementary school. “Have you ever heard of this book called the Yellow Pages? Look it up. In the Yellow Pages. Look up ‘Yellow Pages’ in the Yellow Pages. It’s called a fucking paradox!”

>Once you’re past, like, 25? 26?– the idea of older people writing like that or older people reading stuff like that, it just all seems so weird to me. Just because aging is just such a constant series of humblings… Oh god…

>>93567627
http://twiststreet.tumblr.com/post/162453833465

>Oh man– just saw the latest comic book business: the cover to some Howard Chaykin comic “shows a brown-skinned man with his genitals mutilated and a racial slur on his shirt hanging by a noose.” So… that’s probably not going to be very popular, I guess…? I mean, it’s all meaningless because comics people believe in nothing; it’s a value-less culture so thinking about it in moral terms isn’t very fruitful. It’s just a bunch of stuff. But it’ll probably going to be briefly upsetting, I guess.

>I like a vulgar comic cover. I think I probably like vulgar shit more than you’re supposed to talk about online anymore. Comic covers being vulgar has a certain historic tradition I’m pretty fond of. So I think get the whole Pre-Code tradition it’s trying (kinda clumsily) to allude to (or at least I think– I can’t think of any other reason to draw a thing like that, anyways), but I don’t know– that is one shitty cover, anyways. A cover in that vein needs a particular sense of humor (I think pre-Code covers are pretty funny in a way, say), or a stronger sense that we’re meant to identify with the victim. Or a visceral sense that what we’re seeing is horrifying. Chaykin doesn’t have the right sense of humor– he think misanthropy’s funny. And it is– people are horrible. But if you don’t get the joke that’s past misanthropy (that you’re a crying monkey that’s going to be as dead as the people you hate pretty soon), well…you ain’t pulling off that cover. Those pre-Code covers, they’re funny cause life is fucking cheap. Which – I mean, you gotta laugh at that, cause that’s the only other option to total despair. Chaykin’s cover, the (most generous interpretation of the) gag is like “oh no the wrong parts of America voted for Trump” which… is the opposite of life being cheap. Not funny.

>>93567639
>And he’s too old/lazy as a visual artist to pull it off. With Chaykin’s thing, the camera’s positioned as you being a white person on the street looking at the scene going “oh dear, look at these other white people are doing.” You’re not the guy being hung up– it’s not even really happening in the moment, the way it would be in a pre-Code cover. You’re the white guy finding this afterwards. An EC Cover– you’d be the guy. It’s not just that it’s a bad drawing (though it definitely is– his shit’s been wack for a long time. I mean, he’s old– Chaykin had his awesome years– and they were pretty good, those years– and then maybe no one told him those were over, I don’t know. Man, getting old is scary). But past that, it’s that the entire worldview that’s gone into that cover is just… bereft of imagination.

>I don’t know– the part I find sad about this, is say you’re Chaykin, and you’ve made your bones. You’ve had your career. You’re not going to go make another American Flagg. You’re not going to go be Philip Roth who went and did all these big novels in his later years– that happens to like 1 out of 100 artists. But then you keep going anyways, just so that you can do … this??? I mean, you don’t want to be the band that’s playing their hits at County Fairs either, but it’s just… I don’t know. That bit gives me feelings a little to think about.

>>93567656
>Image Comics being a place that doesn’t have any kind of Quality Control over the books they publish, that’s something I generally like. But apparently they’re out there doing some song and dance that they’re hoping the book spurs “productive conversations about the present state of our society”. Imagine being where those conversations are going on. Imagine that Algonquin Round Table of morons. I’d rather fucking shove a screwdriver all the way into my goddamn ear first. (Image has a little pride logo on their twitter account. Sure, sure. That’s my MOST FAVORITE part, though– how everyone in comics woke up like “we’re the good guys now!” Oh okay…)

>It’s all just so stupid. There’s only ever one real “comics controversy”: why is there so much stupidity? The lyrics change, but the song stays the same.

>Also: He didn’t pick the right slur for the cover. I saw myself being referred to online as an “overweight curry [n-word]” the other day (you know: comic book fans)– an American lynch mob would work in the n-word. I’m guessing Image wouldn’t have been all that eager to have that conversation anytime soon, though, and maybe would’ve found a way to exert some QC in that case, but. (I was extremely offended when I saw that being said about me because dude, I’m not overweight! I don’t get the exercise I need, but fuck you, I’m good about portion control when I eat! I’m r-rated sexy!!!).

>>93562758
>>Should it be published
>Should what be published, the cover or the comic? Be more clear and stop mumbling, anon.
Why are you acting smug and superior when you can't even read? He prefaced the question with "let's talk about this cover".

>>93565802
>>93567615
Now I'm wondering if Chaykin is going to read threads like these and pull out quotes from Twitter or reviewers to put on his book.

>>93565062
>on a scale of 10 to 100 how funny is it watching people just now learn how image works?

Kinda funny, but really sad when you see someone like Andy Diggle question why the James Bond comic he worked on couldn't use Swastikas and Chaykin's cover for his creator-owned comic got approved.

>>93567730
I think Chaykin's intern is making this thread

>>93567748
because James Bond isn't creator owned property but licensed
are you dense

>>93567804
https://twitter.com/andydiggle/status/880872300047892480

>>93563258
>>93563512
>Brandon Graham is getting dragged into this whole discussion about this online because he's not denouncing Chaykin and image like other people in his circle.

Even as far back as six years ago I kind of anticipated something similar would happen one day.

https://twitter.com/spacetwinks/status/880882559785283588
https://twitter.com/littlemac1183/status/880912322868514816
https://twitter.com/royalboiler/status/880926663504150528

>>93567787
If that's the case then I anticipate either the next issue or a TPB will have quotes like:

" Oh brother– I just read some Howard Chaykin self-glorification thing over at Bleeding Cool. It was all this old-man political gibberish, but somehow inspired by or trying to sell allegedly transphobic comics he’d put out…? " --Abhay Khosla

"Howard chaykin makes a bigoted comic and keeps getting paid, published and promoted by a large company to keep doing so: whyyyyyy" --Brian Wolf, on Twitter

>>93567879
Fucking Christ. I'll give him props for not getting shitty with a bunch of fucktards baiting for something to sink his career. There's also a surreal level with that one dickhead trying to be condescending asshat with a fucking furry profile picture.

>>93567853
the people who own James Bond don't want swatstis on their cover
are you retarded
Chaykin owns his shit
Diggle is a work for hire baby

>>93567982
If there's anything I learned about being on the internet, it's that those who go on the attack on a moral high horse a lot, inevitably get attacked by their own.

With Twitter that happens in record time.

>>93568030
Yeah, I think you should direct that to Diggle himself.

>>93568042
oh lol sorry I thought you were defending his side
5/6pack deep on my friday night
Diggle is dumb even though GA: Year One is dope

>>93565443
>Neal Adams is weirdly underrated despite being so insane
You could've stopped there.

>>93568115
Well that's not really a statement that merits a "despite."

>>93568076
>oh lol sorry I thought you were defending his side

Why the fuck would I even do that? His tweet was dumb as fuck to the point where I think it dethroned Shadowland as the worst thing he's written.

>>93565443
>Neal Adams is weirdly underrated despite being so insanely influential.

It's because Adams' output was very sporadic after the 70's, partly because he was working on commercial work and partly because he was publishing the Continuity Comics stuff during the 80's and 90's. So whole generations aren't aware of him other than Batman Odyssey.

And of course there's how people are generally ignorant of their history.

Which is funny because Abhay tries to mock Chaykin:

>Listen to this bit: “So it’s all too clear that H.G. Wells got it right. The Time Machine. Eloi and Morlock. One is eaten, the other eats. Look it up–it depresses me too much that neither side of this divide has any clue of what I type to bother explaining.” This is like every dipshit after the election. “Have you ever heard of this book 1984? LOOK IT UP.… Have you heard of this band The Beatles? Look it up– you know what my favorite Beatles album is? The Best of the Beatles.” When you interact with nerds, that’s pretty much how any nerd with a job in a creative industry just writes as a default, like they’re the headmaster of some underfunded elementary school. “Have you ever heard of this book called the Yellow Pages? Look it up. In the Yellow Pages. Look up ‘Yellow Pages’ in the Yellow Pages. It’s called a fucking paradox!”

And it reminded me of an interview Chaykin did about Will Eisner (whom he wasn't really fond of). I'll see if I can find it.

>>93568182
https://mrmedia.com/2012/01/congrats-artist-howard-chaykin-2012-eisner-hall-of-fame-nominee-interview/

ANDELMAN: There you go. How do you think the industry and the greater group who might have some knowledge of Eisner, how do you think he will be regarded in twenty, twenty-five, fifty years? Will people even remember him?

CHAYKIN: Well, does anybody remember Lou Fine, does anybody remember Hal Foster? The industry is very much a reflection of contemporary culture. Look what happened to J.C. Leyendecker. Leyendecker was completely forgotten until Richard Amsel and Roger Huyssen borrowed images from his work, for movie posters and magazine illustrations in the 1970s. The poster for The Sting is what brought J.C. Leyendecker back to public awareness.

He was a Saturday Evening Post artist from the teens, who did his last cover for the Post in 1943. His work became passé in the last decade of his life. He died at 75 in 1950. Remember the poster for The Sting?

ANDELMAN: Sure.

CHAYKIN: That was based on two Arrow Shirt ads, I believe. It was by Richard Amsel, a talented poster and magazine cover artist who died in the early 1980s.

Interestingly enough, a lot of Will’s rendering of shadows and fold patterns, where he would take a brush and indicate a fold in a shadow not with a solid black but by a series of horizontal lines, that’s a black and white simplified version of what Leyendecker did with his interpretation of shadows and folds. Take a look—you’ll see what I mean.

>>93567673
>I saw myself being referred to online as an “overweight curry [n-word]” the other day (you know: comic book fans)–

Hey, wait a minute.

http://desuarchive.org/co/thread/88771727/#88779261

Either whoever made that post is upset at Abhay and posting it over and over elsewhere or Abhay really does go here often.

@93562522
Umm CamStew said this comic was bad so I agree with him desu

>>93568306
>>93568877
Okay, I gotta know now, how many comics people go to /co/?

>>93565853
I'm saying thank you but I mean it in the way like 'thank you for allowing me to read dogshit'

>>93562522
Fuck Chaykin regardless. Been coasting on past success for 20 years now.

>>93562946
Christ when did /co/ get so jaded? If you retards just wanna talk about comic movies, go to /tv/ and shit it up. Stop ruining /co/.
>>93565173
>>93565213
It's not surprising that this is annoying people. But yeah, it shouldn't have been censored.

>>93562522
Ironically, the most outrageous part of this cover is that there's a gun store on an inner city street.

>>93568877
I actually defended him on Twitter and the retard blocked me. I wasn't being crass or anything. I sent him a message saying I loved his work.

>>93569169
This. He used to be so good and now everything he draws looks like complete shit. And does he always get the same awful guy to color or does it just happen to always look terrible no matter who does it?

>>93571126
This

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>>93565283

Oh great! The White House is defended by M3 Stuarts from WWII! We're prepared now for an invasion by the Japanese and Nazis now!

I can't believe so many people are bandwagon jumping for this controversy. The signaling false outrage is bs. Personally I liked the first issue, day after I bought it I called in to have it added to my pull.

shittier things hit the shelves erry day, controversy sells, etc, so why not?

>>93571568
This was my argument to Brian wolf, but in the end he tried to explain baby's first art class to me. If you are surprised by how chaykin does things, then you haven't been paying attention.

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>>93568877
>>93571148
>'I'm all for freedom, but not for everybody'

>I’m all for freedom of expression in art but one has to be responsible with it. This Chaykin thing is vile and unconscionable.
>— Cameron Stewart (@cameronMstewart) June 30, 2017

in other words, he's not for freedom of expression in arts.

>>93571633
i like Cameron Stewart too, oh well.

>>93571694
Great artist but an absolute twat, and king of hypocrisy. He's too eager to please the most vocal voices and lacks any credibility as a result

>>93571633
>>93571649
Why do artist cliques always feel like they're the best judge of what's acceptable and what isn't? There are people who do that for a living, and they fuck that up the most often! It's like Stewart and the others have never REALLY though about what freedom of expression covers, and just treat the idea as a way to cover their ass after they get caught.

>>93571742
Gail Simone is practically saying the same thing, too. Never thought she would cow to the thought police. I guess if image stops publishing the book I may just drop all my image books.

>>93571784
most people feel that way, it's not endemic to artist cliques. most people would like to eradicate everything they don't like, even if it hurts no one.

>>93571784
It's not just artist cliques.

>>93571785
yet she defends Ethan Van Sciver super hard

I hope that every artist being critical of Chaykin gets their work censored one day
how can people lack any artistic integrity?
people used to write way worse things, for shits and giggles

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>>93562522

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Speaking of covers, here is the cover to an upcoming Savage Dragon Larsen got an actual porn artist. It will be in a polybag uncensored