Which side was in the right?

>>93554205
Tony. The government was going to force cap and the other heroes into it one way or the other. The only way to get through it was to concede and then try to work the system from the inside. Cap realized that too but got pissy over Wanda being held in the Avengers base.

Both were right, but both Steve and Tony fought for the wrong reasons. Tony was wrong because he was overcome by guilt instead of good judgment, and Steve was wrong because he was more concerned about Bucky, the last remaining thing from his old life

Wonder who they are going to blame once Thanos strolls into town.

>>93554242
Probably Steve.

>>93554205
Can anyone explain to me again why black widow and hawkeye are part of avengers even though they're regular humans without Batman massive intellect, peak human strenght or billions of dollars?

>>93554205
Iron Man, in all, movie and both comic CW

>>93554205
Neither is right. One is on top and the other is on the bottom

>>93554508
Technically Iron Man plans in the comic would end superheros in the long run.

>>93554477
Widow is there for tits and ass, Hawkeyes is there because he's one of the only decent actors in the cast.

>>93554477
black widow is their espionage specialist

as for hawkeye, why not? he ended up on the team by circumstance and there's no reason to kick him off. he's not going to bankrupt them buying arrows.

>>93554230
>Cap realized that but got upset over extrajudicial punishment of someone whose actions hurt a few while saving many when the entire solution they were proposing was intended to limit their current practice of extrajudicial punishment without oversight
Yeah what a whiner.

>>93554477
No ordinary human can shoot a bow like Hawkeye. Dude's a super, no question.

>>93554205
Me, for not bothering to buy into this fucking tedious claptrap.

>>93554205
Conservatives will say Stark.
Liberals will say Cap.
Those who have common sense will say, Heroes fighting is lame as fuck and we are sick of it.

>>93554717
>we
You spergs need to stop lumping everyone else into your posts to act like it holds more weight for your opinion

>>93554477
>Can anyone explain to me again why black widow and hawkeye are part of avengers even though they're regular humans without Batman massive intellect, peak human strenght or billions of dollars?

Combined power level 9,800 is more than combined power level 9,000.

They are both a little sneaky, widow can disguise herself, and getting an arrow somewhere super accurately is occasionally useful.

Some of the audience are men in their 40s or later who don't look at porn very much, so the fantasy of a fit, young white woman with red hair in tight black leather makes sex with their wives more enjoyable

>>93554717
Fucking this

>>93554205
Tony obviously. If you're little superhero battles start killing the same innocent people you're supposed to protect then you have failed and need to be put in check.

>>93554717
I'm a liberal, I think Tony was right, I don't want people who can destroy cities dicking around the world fucking shit up without the slightest oversight why the fuck would I?

The side of the viewer, because they got a great film

>>93554717
Shouldn't it be the othe way around?
I thought liberals wanted government control, and conservatives didn't.

>>93554861
>CW
>great
Pfftttttttt hahahahahahaha

>>93554889
Both side's normal people want what's reasonable, which is less and certain places and more in others. The upper tiers of both sides want more and get more.

>>93554837
People with powers existing =/= ducking around and destroying things willy nilly
This is same logic as gun control people. Powers don't kill, people kill.

>>93554717

Inately Stark was right, how the comics go about it was "pants on head " retarded.

>>93554955
I think the only reasonable people are the ones who can see that both sides are wrong the the people inside are either manipulating others or being manipulated Themselves
Any legislation that limits your freedom is in direct opposition to your happiness and in favor of people who want control over you
People are just stupid enough to think they are the ones in control just because they voted for someone and tweeted a lot, you are never in control you morons, the people in control whoever they are have the opposite intentions to you
>Vote for me and I will make gender neutral bathrooms and create massive amounts of debt to control the population forever and ever
>Vote for me and I will make guns legals and also invest too much money into military expansion that can only sustain itself through war
Same fucking shit
Both of sides are full of stupid fucks

>>93554205
cap'n was right. Stark was too busy being the government's lap dog to see that they were all being manipulated.

>>93554205
Cap

>>93554230
>government was going to force
How, exactly? With their own team of superheroes they didn't actually have? The Avengers had a monopoly on super people, they could name their terms, or none. Because it's not like the Earth has any other option.

>>93554234
But Cap was right about Bucky, he was innocent. How can you be responsible for your actions when you have no agency?

>>93554477
Widow's a spy, not every contribution has to be in open combat, and did you see the shots Clint was making in Avengers?

>>93554717
Staunch conservative, Liberals are scum, and Cap was right.

>>93554821
That's on Tony's head, not the team. The team didn't make Ultron, he did.

>>93554898
CW was amazing.

>>93555009
Innately Stark was wrong, Peter revealing his identity the way Stark wanted got Aunt May shot.

>>93555177
Captain America was gorge Bush jr

>>93554205
I haven't watched it yet, but I'm going to guess Cap.

>>93554960
And it shocks you that a liberal would like it if the people with powers had more oversight to prevent them from killing and punish them if they did?

>>93555297
The avengers had a former sidekick of ultron, ultron's baby robot, hulk, the brother of the guy that attacked new york, two guys involved in political killings, and some American soldiers.


Fuck them

On the one hand accountability is great.
On the other hand we'd just gotten proof that the government agency in charge of this shit was being controlled by double nazis from day one, and the lead figure behind this legislation not only funded the Hulk, but Hulk 2 Bigger and Crazier.
It's the same as how they thought it'd be a great idea to register in the comics but oops they're registering with Norman fucking Osborn.

So it's actually the same problem as the comic; registration can't be trusted because the people running it can't be.

>>93554205
None, one is on top the other is in he bottom

For sure Steve.
Sure the whole Ultron mess is on them, but I find it disgusting that the government tries to blame them for the rest. I mean c'mon, would they of rather had New York nuked like the WSC wanted? Would they of rather had Hydra kill millions of innocent people in one second? Would they of rather had Crossbones explode down on the ground where there were even more people who would of died. It's just stupid.

File: Cap was right.png (282KB, 600x338px) Image search: [Google]

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>>93554205

>>93554889
liberal and conservative are not mutually exclusive, you're thinking of authoritarianism

>>93554205
What where they fighting about?

>>93556683
International oversight.
Steve's faction was against it, Tony's was for it.

Tony stopped being right when he was okay with Ross running the show.

>>93556760
I should have made my joke more obvious

>>93556797
Okay, Spock. What was the punchline?

>>93556823
How the whole conflict got sidelined and how forgettable it was

>>93556852
Oh. I suppose that was kind of a funny joke.
If it was forgettable, there wouldn't be this thread.

>>93554205
Tony.

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>>93554205

I believe there are no easy solutions here, and neither party is completely in the right. There is clearly a need to hold the Avengers accountable if they fail, yet it may be truly impossible for them to prevent any civilian casualties from occurring 100% of the time. While deaths caused by negligence would need to be dealt with, no-one should be punished for trying to do the right thing, but not being able to save everyone.

While some regulation is necessary, the Accords would seem to be unworkable in their current form. Does every participating nation have to agree before the Avengers are allowed to take action? Even if a majority vote is required, it could be too late by the time authorisation is given.

With governments and civilians having turned against the Avengers, there does seem to be no way to simply get rid of the Accords, so the best solution may indeed be to change them from within, to draw attention to the unworkable aspects, and the unnecessarily punitive measures.

I have a theory that openly defying these laws and fighting against the authorities will only make things much worse for everyone, and make it much more difficult for the Avengers to continue to operate as a team.

>>93558634
>I have a theory that openly defying these laws and fighting against the authorities will make it much more difficult for the Avengers to continue to operate as a team.
Gee, gosh, you should share with us how you came to such a stunning revelation Reed Richards. Moron.

>>93554205
cap, you cant hold heroes responsible for things out of their control when the governments wouldnt even have a chance at dealing with any of the things that happened in any of the movies other than the nuke it scenario, its also funny how the UN willing to go after the heroes but cant even handle a single villain

In the end, Tony broke the Accords to go to Siberia and hunt Zemo against Ross's wishes anyway, proving that not even he truly believed in his own side. I think Rhodey was the only one in the movie dumb enough to think putting the UN in charge of heroes was a good idea and not just going along with it to avoid a bigger conflict.

>>93554205
Cap was right about both the accord and Bucky

>>93559884

pretty much this, Cap was right every step of the way, with the one exception being he had never sat down and told Stark how he had reason to believe his parents were murdered.

It's a valid concern that the Avengers could use with some oversight, but the UN is not the organization to do this. Assuming the UN is the same as it is in real life, it's an organization with Saudi Arabia (a country that beheads people for sorcery and women are treated like property) as the head of the human rights council. Also, the UN seems to be incapable of keeping their "peacekeepers" from raping everyone in sight wherever they go.

And putting all that aside, the Sokovia Accords were really vaguely explained, and the characters barely spend five minutes talking it out with each other before they decide to go to war with each other.

>>93554960
this is a false dichotomy even in countries where you are allowed to own a gun you are not allowed to police that country without permission from its government

>>93560422

also keep in mind they had this 1000 page tome dropped in front of them that they were expected to sign immediately. It's a movie, there's time skips, and shit, but still, it never really seemed like anyone had a chance to read the thing cover to cover.

Also there's no fucking way the UN drafted this thing after the Nigeria attack. They were probably working on it since Ultron or more likely even before that and decided to wait for a politically convenient time to spring it on the Avengers.

But if they were working on it that long, and somehow no one even knew it was in the works until the scene in the movie where Ross drops it off, that means they were intentionally suppressing news of it, like the US government did with the TPP for years.

TLDR the UN in this movie was NOT to be trusted.

>>93555190
>That's on Tony's head, not the team.

Tony is a port of the team and while i do not believe that the government should be allowed to control super heroes on the level of the Hulk and Thor I definitely don't believe that superheroes should be allowed to police my community without my permission.

Cap.
Tony was just dragging everyone into his guilt trip and putting in place a system he was already planning on skirting constantly but would just leaven the Avengers with more obstacles.

Airport security.

>>93554230
>the only way to beat the government is to roll over for them

statist get out.

>>93554230
>Cap should have given up because the government would have made him anyway

Found the Hill Shill.

>>93560508
Isn't Steve the only one the audience actually sees reading any of it?

>>93554477
Because comic book normal human is not real life normal human. No real human could do all the things Black Widow and Hawkeye do.

>>93554717
>Conservatives not siding with Cap

The modern right is closer to libertarianism than modern liberals.

>>93554821
>Need to be put in check
>By the government who drone killed way, way more innocents than Scarlet Witch could ever dream of killing.

Yeah no.

>>93559937
>Not telling the giant manchild whose last big toy nearly killed a country that Bucky killed his parents

I don't blame him.

>>93561574

I think so but there's no way he had time to read it all unless supersoldier serum gives him speedreading powers

>>93561602

Cap didn't actually know Bucky killed Stark's parents, he just had a strong reason to believe Hydra was behind it.

BROTHER MY BROTHER

>>93561602
>By the government who drone killed way, way more innocents than Scarlet Witch could ever dream of killing.
We're talking about the United Nations, not just America. The theme of all this is how many people can you blow off, how many governments can you avoid and still consider yourself the hero?

>>93560530
>Tony is a part of the team
And they opposed making Ultron so much they actually started a fight to stop him from making what they thought was the same mistake twice. And they weren't policing anything, they were responding to threats that conventional forces weren't equipped to handle. How would the military have stopped the Chitauri? How would SHIELD? Oh wait we know, SHIELD tried to nuke the city, and that wouldn't have done anything because the barrier around the portal generator was self sustaining and unbreachable.

In AoU they were dealing with something Tony started, and before that they were taking down Hydra. In WS Cap found out about a plot that would have killed tens of millions and stopped it, then dismantled the agency that had unknowingly sheltered the enemy, and stepped in to fill the void in international security. Which ended when Wanda accidentally killed a few people, in order to save ten times that number. People getting pissed over that makes sense, she had recently been a villain, but every single incident Ross bitched about was either better because the Avengers intervened, or completely Tony's fault. Stark is the ONLY ONE who should have been obligated to sign the accords.

>>93561804
>UN Security Council

Oh because they're SO MUCH BETTER right? Let's have China and Russia weigh in on what the Avengers can do! What could possibly go wrong?

The question is do you trust the Avengers or the UN more and if your answer isn't the Avengers you're high. The Avengers have a far better track record at protecting the world, a much smaller body count, and are far less corrupt than the United Nations.

You might as well put HYDRA as the Avengers' overseer if you want to put the UN over them.

>>93554701
hawkeye is shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQlY0aK4kY

>>93561872
This.

Stark's fuck ups mean he deserves to have someone watching over him like a nanny. But Steve not only proved the governments of the world can't be trusted to protect people from stuff like HYRDA but proved that he actually CAN.

They should have made a piece of legislation acknowledging Steve as in charge of the Avengers and put him in charge of keeping Tony in line.

File: BEHAVE.jpg (912KB, 1486x1408px) Image search: [Google]

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Cap and friends should have gone full Authority, crashed a UN assembly, and told everyone to behave.

Superheros aren't the ones that need to be watched. Governments are.

It's a difficult situation. Ultimately there were no good options for the Avengers.

I suspect the Accords were much more lenient on the wholly human Avengers. The UN and governments regarded Wanda and Vision as WMDs.

There needed to be accountability, but the system implementing it was deeply flawed and open to abuse.

The problem with defying the Accords or following them, is it obviously makes both factions of Avengers a busted flush; they can't move freely and they can't act without the danger of being arrested or killed.

No matter how powerful you are, it's hard to function in this world if governments are on your ass.

>>93562011
Which Stark would regularly ignore, because he pays for everything and he thinks that means he's in charge.

>>93562109
>>93562011
Lumping all the Avengers together in the accords was exactly the kind of full-retard planning the UN does in real life.

Does Tony and his fuck buddy the jolly green giant need to be watched? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Does Steve and not-Carrie who accidentally killed fewer people than a wayward drone strike? Fuck no.

What were they going to do about Thor? He's a warrior prince from a far more powerful civilization. And you want him to what, have lunch with Putin and friends before he goes and fights evil magic elves or whatever? He's so far above the jurisdiction of earthly authority its comical. He's not a citizen of any country. No one has legal authority over him.

>>93562084
The correct option was to laugh and tell Ross to piss off, because the MCU is not 616, there are not hundreds of other super-people they could call on to take the Avenger's place. And again blame falls on Tony, we KNOW he's the only one who knows for sure about Ross's beef with Banner, because Stark is the guy who talked to Ross at the end of the Hulk movie. Did he not think that was a relevant point, that Ross has a personal reason to hate the Avengers due to their association and acceptance of Banner? Sounds like something he should have brought up.

There only "needs" to be accountability when you don't trust people to make the right choice. Which again means only Tony should have had to sign.

From a purely factual point, Tony failed because he didn't adhere to the rules he was advocating. The moment Ross blocked him from going to Siberia, Tony broke the accords by going anyway.

>>93562219
Fuck off, Steve has no right to illegally enter other countries and for his team to smuggle weapons

>>93562219
>Holding a guy who kicked the shit out of a corrupt and infiltrated government agency that was seconds away from nuking portions of America responsible for a playboy manchild's disastrous science experiments.

This is why the accords were obviously nothing more than a power play by the UN to people paying attention.

>>93562367
>Steve needs to ask permission from the government of shitbadistan to beat up the Hydra remnants hiding there

Why the hell wouldn't you trust Cap? Hasn't the poor bastard proved he's more trustworthy than whatever bureaucratic jackass would try to get him to sign papers?

>>93562367
That never stopped SHIELD, or did you forget how they recruited Banner? And the bad guys don't respect borders, or did you forget the automated hellicarriers they were going to kill 30 million people? Do you think it's worth letting the world end because of lines on a map? These are not political wars, these are Armageddon level events.

>>93562429
>portions of America
Portions of the PLANET. The hellicarriers were going to cull the world's population, not just America's.

>>93556659
matter of fact, they're quite dependent on sociocultural context - what's liberal in america can be conservative in sweden, and sometimes vice-versa

i only use them for social context - you know, the gays, freedom of religion, stuff like that

>>93562011
God, the "Hydra is everywhere" storyline really fucked the MCU over when it came to depth. We can't even talk about the objective morality of this situation because everybody is convinced that Hydra is in charge of the UN.

>>93562429
>Why the hell wouldn't you trust Cap?
Because his superhero name is Captain America? How do you think literally everyone else on Earth feels about just that. Some self righteous lab experiment going around pretending he's Jesus Christ.

>>93559282
The guy made some misleading wording, dont have to be a dick about it, Jesus

>>93562437
Kek all of those threats havr the avengers including Nick fury as the people to blame.

>>93562367
>illegally enter other countries
yeh those imaginary lines really keep people out, twat

>>93562367
>>93562429
>>93562437
>So there's this guy who fought not-Nazis during WW2 and saved the world from them.
>The governments of the world were so good at fighting the not-Nazis after the war that they totally cucked the largest spy network on the planet.
>He saves the world from them AGAIN.

>But you know what? I don't trust him. I need to have politicians hold him at legal gunpoint so I will KNOW he will do the right thing because his sidekick accidentally flattened some civvies during a fight with those not-Nazis.

Who the fuck wouldn't trust Cap over the politicians at this point?

>>93562482
They don't have to be in charge. The real world UN has China and Russia on their security council. They're corrupt enough as it is.

And in universe its pretty damn clear governments suck at dealing with super hero problems.

>>93562510
Because his judgement is objectively right, because that's what's been shown in literally very movie so far.

>>93562510
>He saves the world from not-Nazis twice
>But I hate him because he's American and proud to be American

This is why Europe deserves everything happening to it right now.

>>93562515
Really? The Avengers invited Loki to invade? They let Hydra infiltrate SHIELD?

>>93559884
>And Bucky

Nah fuck off Cap.

Bucky was a real threat who is still brainwashed. That's not something that goes away.

>>93562589
>>93562584
>>93562572
>>93562555
>>93562535

Cap should have made the governments sign an accord with The Avengers.

>>93562510
And in his team he has several killers that killed politicians in other countries, Wanda, the sidekick of ultron and vision a robot created by ultron.

>>93562214
>Tony and his fuck buddy the jolly green giant

You wish, buddy.

You and me, together.

>>93562584
Loki only came to earth because of his brother, and the aliens came to earth because of Nick fury experiments of guns.

>>93562572
He didn't save the world, he saved one American city from. Being bombed in the same way Americans bombed Asian and European cities. And more. Important. An American soldier has no right to kill people inside the boarders of my country. Steve doesn't respect the freedom and self determination of others.

>>93562589
never said he wasnt a threat you twat he wanted him brought in alive to find out why he is the way he is and help him

>>93562688
And neither of those things have anything to do with the Avengers, because they didn't exist then. SHIELD was experimenting with the cube, and Cap got rid of them, and ODIN is the reason Thor was on Earth, blame Loki on him if you want.

>>93562753
Do I have to remind you that the tri-carrier had defenses against almost anything that any kind of superhero could throw, nevermind the fact that had Cap not found out the truth about the ship and how to stop it, the damn thing would have been unstoppable?

Besides, considering one of the guys who were Hydra was part of the Council that almost blew up NY, Hydra would have taken over the world quickly.

>>93554230

Freedom isnt free cuck.

>>93562572
Europe's not the only one that's touchy over "AMERICA!!! FUCK YEAH!!!"

The 粪青 in China hate America with all their soul and being, for example, and the arrogant, totally-not-Soviet-anymore Russians hate the Americans for their arrogance as well. Anti-US sentiment has been brewing all over the world for years now - young, non-bishie Japanese men feels emasculated, Canada and Mexico have been feeling threatened recently, the Philippine government's been trying to shake off, for some bizarre reason, American aid, economic ties, and military assistance, and the Pakistani have their drone conflicts - lots of countries hate the US, some have good reasons, some are run by lunatics.

>>93554290
>>93554242

Vision does have a gem in his head Thanos will be interested in. The gov will notice that and probably try to give him up.

>>93562753
>Thinking Hydra wasn't going to go on the curbstomp everyone with cube technology if Cap wasn't in WW2.

It is to laugh Anon.

>An American soldier has no right to kill people inside the borders of my country.

You have no right to keep him from stopping the global threats using your borders as shields.

If he changed his name to Captain Islam would you be fine with him crossing your borders?

>>93562824
And that freedom clearly doesn't refer to the people from the countries Steve invades.

>>93562753
Question is, what is the freedom and self-determination of a struggling 3rd world country to the Chitauri?

>>93562753
>one American city
Are you retared? The hellicarriers were going to hit
THE
ENTIRE
PLANET
and kill hundreds of millions.

>>93562853
>If he changed his name to Captain Islam would you be fine with him crossing your borders?

Totally, they'd be too busy laughing themselves to death to care.

I know I would - God, of all the Muslim cringe I've seen over the years, that would have been the ticket to my next laughter-related back injury.

>>93562875
I think he was talking about the Red Skull's super plane in First Avenger.

But even then if there was no Cap in WW2 Hydra would have taken over the planet with cube tech.

>>93562862
>I'd rather tell the superhero to fuck off so I can feed my anti-America boner than let him kill the super terrorists inside my country

This is why Europe deserves its trucks of peace.

This thread's partly converted me.

At first, I thought that I'd side with Cap, because that's how these movies work - freedom is always good.

Then I sided with Tony, because realistically, some accountability is good - important, even.

Now, I'm back to Cap, because the people who are gonna hold accountability over the Avengers are gonna be the UN.

>>93561804
>We're talking about the United Nations


http://teatotally.tumblr.com/post/144240012830/the-accords-were-always-a-disaster-in-the-making

>>93562848
Especially since Viz breaks the Accords by having secret meetings with Wanda, which are made public by Corvus Glaive and Proxima Midnight causing a ruckas

>>93562995
>They want to keep not-Carrie's robot buddy away from her

What could their reason possibly be for this? Holy god why do they want to further antagonize the walking pschic nuke?

>>93562079
I think you missed the point of The Authority.

>>93562853
If the name was captain Irab you would cry if he start killing Americans in the lockheed martin facilities. Sovereignty and freedom are not optional, Steve is an interventionist cunt.

>>93562922
>Red Skull's super plane in First Avenger.
That's fair then, but just because that's as far as Skull's plan got, doesn't mean that was the end. There's no reason to think the plane was his ultimate weapon.

Tony was solely responsible for like half the crap that gotthe accords proposed in the first place.

>We need to be put in check!

No, Tony, you need to be put in check. Ultron was 100% your fault. Alone.

>>93554477
Black Widow is useless. Hawkeye is Based and the Batman of the Avengers.

>>93562922
Is not anti American, is anti intervention. Fuck off. If a country wants to choose hydra as their leaders they have the right. Americans have learned nothing from Irak. Steve is openly working with the sidekick of ultron the terrorist known as Wanda.

>>93563051
>If the name was Captain Arab

So in this alternate universe Captain Arab is a humble and morally upstanding man who saved the world twice on his own and twice with the Avengers when the governments of the world failed to do shit all to save people?

Hell yes I'd be all for him killing Hydra agents in my country. Why wouldn't you?

>Sovereignty and freedom are not optional

What reason would you not want Captain American to kill Hydra agents in your country? What possible reason could you have besides feeding your anti-America boner at the cost of global well being?

>>93562753
The smaller planes inside the bigger one were tagged with multiple city names, there wan't just one target.

>>93563126
>Letting Hydra control a country because Muh Sovereignty.

Oh yeah that's going to work out beautifully.

>Learned nothing from Iraq

You're comparing apples to oranges here Anon. One is a shithole country with several squabbling factions. The other is a country ran by a terrorist organization skilled enough to play the long con and nearly nuke the world with three flying state of the art death machines.

Apples to fucking oranges here Anon.

>>93563051

As an American if Captain Islam came here to kill white terrorists I would applaud him.

Also you're setting up a misleading analogy here. At no point in the movie do we see Nigerians telling the Avengers not to come into their country. We see Europeans and Wakandans getting mad on Nigeria's behalf.

>>93554669
The bitch unleashed the Hulk on a Civilian population and made a war criminal a multi-billionaire.

Just because she regrets it doesn't mean everything's okay. Tony was a SAINT to her after all the shit she put him and Banner through.

>>93563263
This.

No one ever actually said no to Cap's Hydra hunting because who the fuck in their right mind would say no?

>>93563263
We see Steve team. Invading several European countries and smuggling weapons. We also see his terrorist team destroying an airport and Steve helping them escape the fair punishment they deserved. Steve believes he should never pay for the bad things he has done.

There was nothing logical about demanding punishment for scarlet witch over the suicide bomber.

She had no options but what she did, and it saved the most amount of lives.

>>93562011
Steve went on to prove Tony right in that very film, though.

"Muh Bucky" isn't an excuse for all the shit he pulled.

>>93563308
Because unless you purposely rephrase the events like you did to remove all context they weren't actually bad things?

>>93563309
She belongs to jail for helping ultron.

>>93563338
>over the suicide bomber

>>93554205

The fuckable side, of course.

>>93563338
Tony belongs in jail for Ultron.

>>93563308

Iron Man was the one who blew up planes in the airport; Steve's team was just trying to leave. If all you care about is Captain America not coming to your country you should be mad at Iron Man.

>>93563393
Yes, he does, all avengers should be in jail aside from spider-man. Vision should be turned off

>>93556082
>the whole Ultron mess is on them

Technically (and more importantly, accurately) the entirety of the "Ultron mess" is on Tony (and to a much lesser degree, Bruce). Rather than having an actual security protocol, as say any remotely competent writer would give to Bruce Wayne, Tony is written and acts like a bad Star Trek episode where ny old asshole can hijack their starships, no problem.

Because Tony's Iron Soliders were easily controlled by his AI, anyone who could control 'the Genius Billionaire's" AI could control a set of very powerful weapons. Because Tony's an arrogant asshole, the Iron Soliders are all in one place. Even whomever wrote the fucking cartoon put the Iron Man armor under lock and key, not just lying around, on display, like his collection of sex toys likely is in his bedroom.

>>93562429
>Why the hell wouldn't you trust Cap? Hasn't the poor bastard proved he's more trustworthy than whatever bureaucratic jackass would try to get him to sign papers?

Not him, but the events of Civil War itself prove that Cap isn't incorruptible, either. Him putting his friend before the needs of his team and the will of...basically the entire human population split the Avengers, made his friends fugitives (for no reason, it turns out) and basically fucked everything up for everyone.
He operated on his own terms based on incomplete information with disregard for authority regardless of whether or not that authority was someone he could trust.


Stark spent the entirety of the film trying his best to stop his friends from getting killed. Cap spent the majority of the movie proving why the Accords, while not perfect, are not entirely a bad idea.

>>93554477
Isn't Hawkeye on the same level as Bullseye? Meaning he can practically use anything as a weapon?
Widow has super T&A.

>>93554716
Why are you here?

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>>93563114
It's a hoot how people love to downplay Wanda's role in all this because they hate Stark.

Arguably, Wanda was more responsible for Ultron than Tony was. She mind raped him into using the scepter in the first place and conspired WITH Ultron throughout most of the film. Had she not assisted him, The Avengers would have been able to beat Ultron far sooner, effectively neutralizing the threat before he could do any real damage. This isn't even counting all the other stupid, horrible shit she did in the film.

So bascially, Tony did an oopsie when some magic bint toyed with his worst fears. Wanda asctively WANTED destruction until she saw into Ultron's mind, and went "Wait no, not THAT much destruction!"

In addition, Tony actually solved the fucking problem himself while Wanda basically cried in a building until Hawkeye gave her the stop being a pussy speech.

And what does Tony do after all this? Gives her a laving home, personally sponsors her, and takes her on the team. Then she makes things exponentially worse in Civil War's intro by accident, and then does it again on purpose.

So answer me this faggot, why doesn't anyone bitch about Wanda being a fuckup? Is it because she's everyone's waifu?

>>93563388
and that is....?

>>93563517

You got this entirely backward. The authorities were going to kill him for a crime he didn't commit, and Cap was right to protect him the entire time! How the fuck do you twist that into Cap risking lives for nothing?

I mean, consider the basic facts of the movie:

>When given the choice to work for the UN or retire, Cap chose to retire, which was his right
>when he found out they were sending men specifically to kill Bucky, he intervened to bring Bucky into custody alive. This whole thing would not even have been an issue if they just sent someone powerful like War Machine to bring him in alive from the beginning instead of going for the kill immediately
>Cap decides to go after the guy who blew up the UN. Ross, the UN's representative, willfully decides to ignore everything

The only way you can blame Cap for anything in this movie is if you just assume governments are forces of nature whose actions cannot be blamed on human beings and Cap is the only one with real agency. Any time he did anything even close to questionable his hand was forced by the governments massively fucking up.

>>93563601
Only ultimate. 616 on the other hand is peak human but isn't as good as bullseye, and Mcu isn't as good and is not peak human either.

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>>93563633
>She mind raped him into using the scepter in the first place

She 'mind raped' everyone except Hawkeye and yet only one of them went on to build Ultron

>>93563504
>Rather than having an actual security protocol, as say any remotely competent writer would give to Bruce Wayne, Tony is written and acts like a bad Star Trek episode where ny old asshole can hijack their starships, no problem.

What the fuck are you talking about? He DID have security protocols, which is why Ultron couldn't hack his own suit.

Ultron could control the drones because JARVIS was actively running simulations on trying to get him to interface with them in the first place, which was the whole fucking point of Ultron. They weren't "hacked", Ultron was given access to them from the get-go because that was Tony's/Banner's intention.

>>93563669
And mind-raped banner into wrecking Johannesburg, don't forget that shit.

The other Avengers simply weren't in a position where they could do damage. It could have just as easily been Thor swinging his hammer at hallucinations in the middle of a crowded city marketplace.

Basically, the Avengers are a dangerous entity if toyed with in the wrong way. Stark's not ENTIRELY to blame, and at least he took responsibility, got shit done, and solved the problem.

>>93563646
You are a retard, going for the kill is how you stop terrorists suspects if they don't surrender, Bucky wasn't innocent and the minute he heard he was a suspect he should had surrender in the nearest police station. He choose to live in. A European capital instead than on some Alaskan forest.

>>93563775
>if they don't surrender

How was he going to surrender if they just immediately open by throwing grenades in his window with no warning?

>he should had surrender in the nearest police station

So they could kill him? Get the state's cock out of your ass

>>93563808
>So they could kill him? Get the state's cock out of your ass
That's not how it works, anon.

No police force will ever kill suspect that's actively turning himself in.

>>93555662

Exactly. Steve worked with SHIELD already and it was corrupt. Tony and the others were willing to just hand over control to people who may very well be Hydra.

>>93563808
Do you understand that the normal real world response is no Different and that bucky wasn't in any danger the if he just took a cab and turned himself in.

>>93563880
>No police force will ever kill suspect that's actively turning himself in.
I was gonna be all sarcastic and whatnot but it just makes me sad to think about how this isn't actually true.

>>93563880

Why would you trust the guys who start tossing grenades in the window without even looking to see if he was alone first? What if he was living with a roommate, or had hostages, or the landlord was checking on shit? These cops are fucking retarded and you'd have to be an even bigger retard to go surrender to them.

I mean, in a world where you know you're going to get a fair trial, surrendering to the cops makes sense. When the cops are told ahead of time "shoot to kill, boys" it fucking doesn't.

>>93554477
Hawkeye basically has bows as a superpower, good enough that they want that on their side rather shaking down muggers and serial killers.

Widow works the battlefield like femBatman without the gadgets, and she's a trained espionage agent.

>>93563929
>Do you understand that the normal real world response is no Different

What is this supposed to mean to me? In the real world governments spy on everyone just like Hydra was doing in the Winter Soldier, and use drones to execute people they deem as threats which isn't far off from what Hydra was going to do. You need a better case than "the government says it's ok, so it's ok"

>bucky wasn't in any danger the if he just took a cab and turned himself in.

[citation needed]

>>93563942
Point out one instance where a suspect has been shot when turning himself into a police station.

>>93563633
This

>>93554543
Underrated.

>>93564048
Specially a high profile suspect.

>>93554764
Dad?

>>93564048

Being shot isn't the only thing that could happen. He could be sent to a place like Guantanamo forever and never be charged with crime

>>93563646
>The authorities were going to kill him for a crime he didn't commit, and Cap was right to protect him the entire time! How the fuck do you twist that into Cap risking lives for nothing?

ACKSHUALLY, Cap had no reason to believe that Bucky wasn't responsible either at the time, which means the only reason he went in was literally "Muh Bucky." Things worked out to be that he wasn't guilty, which means he basically got lucky.

So what if Bucky WAS guilty? Then he maimed a good number of police officers doing their jobs to protect an active terrorist.

Which...kind of speaks in the Accord's favor, as fucked as they are. The Avengers can't be allowed to operate as they see fit in every situation, and the world has zero reason to let them basically barge into whatever populated zone the bad guys are currently in (whether or not they are causing damage) just to bust them.

>>93564540
>ACKSHUALLY, Cap had no reason to believe that Bucky wasn't responsible either at the time
>guilty until proven innocent

alright I hereby accuse you of being a terrorist, by your logic the government should come to your house and kill you now and it would be justified

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>>93560508
>also keep in mind they had this 1000 page tome dropped in front of them that they were expected to sign immediately. It's a movie, there's time skips, and shit, but still, it never really seemed like anyone had a chance to read the thing cover to cover.
You have to pass it to see what's in it.

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I was originally on Team Cap when I went in the theater, but Stark's position wasn't "sign your life away or face time in the negative zone" like in the comics and more "Look, this Accords thing is happening whether we like it or not, we can't stop it, PLEASE don't be retards and just sign the dotted line for the time being so I can put out the PR fires from this Nigeria thing and try to get this bullshit amended so it's not as bad..."

Then the whole Bucky killed his parents thing, and Stark's understandable meltdown...

Fuck, I used to enjoy, but not like Tony Stark. This movie actually made me LIKE Tony Stark. He's probably my favorite character in the MCU, right now.

Can't want to see what the Russos do with him in Infinity War.

>>93564702

>sign the contract and then we'll change it later

Stark should be smarter than this. That's not how it works.

He wanted them to sign a huge document without reading and then got pissed at Steve for trying to stop the government from executing his friend. He's a cunt

>>93563024
To be assholes.

>>93564601
You can accuse me all you want, you don't have footage, evidence, or even grounds for a claim.

The governments of the world had all three in Vienna.

Stop approaching this like a teenager and look at it from an outside perspective; Cap DID NOT know Bucky was innocent and had no reason to believe he was, which means he operated on "Muh Bucky" rather than any actual hard data, and could've gotten people hurt to protect a mass murderer if his gut instinct wasn't correct.

Which is why the Accords aren't entire wrong about him or the Avengers; they're a group of elite individuals operating on their own terms in lieu of SHIELD, and the governments of the world have no reason to believe said terms are always in their bests interests.

>>93564756
>without reading
They all read it though.

Also, Stark didn't have any reason to believe Steve on the whole Bucky thing. Fuck, even Steve went in blind, as >>93564786 pointed out. Him being pissed was entirely understandable.

And once he found out Bucky was innocent and that Ross didn't care, he fucked off to help Steve. We all saw how well that worked, but that's a different can of worms.

>>93564528
And?
That's where he belongs.


>>93564601
Bucky has a history of violence, murder and there's video Evidence of him being involved in the bombing.

Fuck you, that is how special Op Police work in the real world, Bucky is not only a suspect, he is a superpowered assassin. Shot on sight is how you respond.

>>93554205
>Superhero Registration Act
Cap

>whether Bucky should be killed or not
Stark

>>93564786

Why can we only criticize Steve and not the governments? If the government had a plan to actually detain and try him, you know bring him in and actually get to the bottom of whether he did it or not, which is, you know, their FUCKING JOB, then you'd have a point and Steve would have no excuse for intervening. The fact of the matter is, no one knew for sure he did it and no one knew for sure he didn't. Steve was trying to bring him into custody, which is what is supposed to happen when you have a FUCKING SUSPECT, you know, a person who you think did it but haven't proven it yet.

You're literally approaching this as if it's guilty until proven innocent, which is something the modern western world is supposed to be better than. When you kill everyone suspected of being a witch, you're going to end up killing innocent people with abnormally long noses or who just spend too much time holding brooms. Cap was 100% on the right side of this.

Cap, there needs to be some oversight but not what was being pushed

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>>93564842
>Bucky has a history of violence, murder

No he doesn't, a hydra program walking around in his body does

>>93564923
That's not how anti terrorism work. Do I need to say it again?

Steve isn't a cop in Europe and has no legal or moral right to get involved. Bucky is already considered a fugitive, not turning himself in counts as resisting arrest, and that is the whole reason why suspected terrorists are killed in the real world. They have one fucking chance, and nothing more.

>>93564985
It's the same thing.

>>93564987
>That's not how anti terrorism work. Do I need to say it again?

Yeah you told me already how once the government says everything they do is fine you believe them. I'm not a statist cuck so I don't believe the government gets its own moral category where it can just legitimize its own actions and no one can question it.

If you have an argument beyond "the government makes the rules so that means everything they do is automatically legitimate" I'd like to hear it

>has no legal or moral right to get involved.

He had every moral right to stop them from killing an innocent man. Legal right is whatever a group elitists decide it is. There's nothing about the law that makes it sacred.

>not turning himself in counts as resisting arrest

sure thing , and the punishment for resisting arrest is execution to?

>>93565042

It really isn't though

>>93564756
well stark obviously read it, and even though cap was against it I'm sure he read the accords. He had flight from newyork to london and he's a smart guy, he probably just used that time then.

Honestly the only person that was right in the civil war comic was spiderman.

Tony was right at first, the hero community needs regulation and self policing is better than government control so having a hero take the reigns makes sense. then tony went all negative zone prison and peter switched sides.

Peter parker was the only right person.

In CW2 I guess that honour goes to kamala. She was for it until she swath issues with predictive justice and saw they were getting less accurate.

>>93564830
>They all read it though.

The thing was about 1000 pages long. Let's say for the sake of argument vision could read the thing instantly and Stark already read it ahead of time. how many of them do you think could read those 100 pages if they passed it around and took turns, in just 3 days? Maybe if that's literally all they did?

>>93565042
Basing on effect, yes.

Basing on responsibility, no, hell no.

>>93565123
You're STILL ignoring the one issue, as every fucking retard in these threads do. Steve had NO REASON to assume Bucky was innocent, and those SWAT team members had every reason to assume he was extremely dangerous.

As pointed out before, Steve got lucky and assuimed correctly, but if he hadn't, it would have been disasterous. Hell, it still was.

>>93565123
>He had every moral right to stop them from killing an innocent man.
Sure, if he had actually known he was innocent...which he didn't

>>93566058
>>93566118

He wasn't proven guilty. In the civilized world that means he's innocent.

why do people still think cap was only fighting for MUH BUCKY?

do you not remember the subplot of steve trying to stop the russian assassins who could take out entire countries?

>>93564985
>should I punish you or not
Yes since he ran off with the money, it would have made more sense if he didn't

>>93566118
>>93566058


Consider the following

> Cops kill him on sight --> he's guilty --> GREAT
>Cops kill on sight --> he's innocent --> innocent man murdered by cops, literally no reason to trust the government on anything ever again

>Arrest him --> he's guilty --> you can jail or execute him later. No harm done
>Arrest him --> he's innocent --> let him go

This is why, regardless of anyone knowing for sure whether he was guilty or not, they should have arrested him rather than killing him.

>>93566158
He isn't innocent, he is a fugitive regardless of his involvement on the bombing, he is an international criminal and assassin.

>>93566428

see >>93564985

>>93566554
Makes no difference to anyone that isn't Cap; he still did those things and as far as anyone knows, is still entirely capable of doing more.

Bucky may be a victim, but by his own admission, that does not make him innocent. Regardless of his clarify of mind at the time of his crimes, he ran from authorities from Washington DC to Romania instead of turning himself in, which makes him an active criminal and at the time of the Vienna bombing, a wanted terrorist.

The government didn't do anything outside of standard operating procedure involving Bucky, and it's no fault of theirs he didn't turn himself in to the authorities when he gained enough self-awareness to realize what he did.

>>93566835
He was a wanted terrorist even before the vienna bombing. That's why Zemo framed him in the first place.

>>93566835
>he ran from authorities from Washington DC to Romania

he ran from a government that he knew was infiltrated by the same people that were controlling him before. he also ran from a legal system that was not created with considerations for mind control. why the fuck should he surrender for anything?

>>93554717
>Conservatives supporting government control
>liberals wanting deregulation
You got it backwards man

>>93554205

Cap. The reason for the accords was all Tony's fault anyway. I still find it funny that an alien invasion resulted in under 100 deaths and only a handful of people died in that whole thing with Ultron. MCU civilians are surprisingly hard to kill.

>AVENGERS, A NUKE WENT OFF IN NEW YORK CITY AND ONE MAN HAD SEVER BURNS BUT HE'S NOW OKAY AND HAS TO TAKE ONE DAY OFF OF WORK
>YOU'RE TOO POWERFUL AND MUST BE HELD IN CHECK SO THIS TRAGEDY DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN

>>93554837
A better question is why the hell would you want our corrupt government to have control over those people?

>>93567045

they should have just not shown any numbers, jesus fucking christ. If the numbers were reasonable I'm sure people would have complained that it was too dark. Just don't fucking show them.

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>>93554837

>aliens attack new york
>government sends a nuke to level the place
>Avengers stop both the aliens and the nuke

YOU KNOW WHO I TRUST, BETWEEN THE AVENGERS AND THE GOVERNMENT?

THE GOVERNMENT

>>93566984
Well, one; it's public knowledge that the Winter Soldier was mind controlled American hero from WWII, which means he'd likely be extremely successful at an NGRI defense, which is why Stark told Cap that he'd be admitted to a psyche ward.

And also, all of the HYDRA agents within the government were exposed and apprehended, or simply didn't have the position of power to take him out or even hunt him down

>>93567045
>The reason for the accords was all Tony's fault anyway.
And Wanda's.

In fact, it's mostly Wanda's. The only difference between Tony and Wanda is that Tony paid for his mistake and took responsibility, while Wanda got a new home and a position on the most team of superheroes.

>>93567103
>And also, all of the HYDRA agents within the government were exposed and apprehended

No they weren't. A bunch of SHIELD files were released and we saw some hydra guys in government get taken, but by Civil War we know there are still Hydra members out there. I mean, Black Widow released all the files on one computer. It obviously wasn't everything. Also, we know some of those files were encrypted, so there's really no guarantee that Hydra is gone from the government.

>it's public knowledge that the Winter Soldier was mind controlled American hero from WWII, which means he'd likely be extremely successful at an NGRI defense

Why were they going for the kill then?

>>93567101
Yeah, it's ridiculous that this is even a conversation. Realistically the government would probably collapse from such a monumental failure, they sure as fuck would not be acquiring oversight over the saviors of the world. Writers don't like to change the status quo so much though, it kind of changes the genre.

>>93567138
>Wanda got a new home and a position on the most team of superheroes.

Tony got both of those things too, and Wanda helped him kill Ultron. I'd say they're even.

>>93566835
Not really, as soon as he got captured he got brainwashed.

Feeling guilty about something does not make him guilty.

>>93567138
Why is it mostly Wanda's?

The reasoning was stupid some guy blew himself up and Wanda messing up in stopping him looked more like an excuse than anything else.

>>93567449
She saves dozens of people but accidentally killed like eleven, but really the UN was just waiting for the Avengers to make a mistake so they could try and get them under control.

Cap.

The government has been shown to be incompetent and corrupt multiple times, only an idiot would let them take charge of the biggest superhuman organization in the world.
Also the >UN with notorious enthusiast for superhuman utilization in war General Ross spearheading the project.
You just need to remember that shit is literally half the MCU villains.

>>93567449
Proximity.
It's the "kill the messenger" fallacy.
She was the one who failed to prevent all the deaths therefor she is the most closely associated with the fact that people were killed during a crazy superhero battle.
Then people confuse involvement for responsibility.
Even if the very existence of superheroes actually does create a more chaotic and dangerous world, there's no more reason to blame her specifically for all the drama than there is to blame Hawkeye.
But she *was* there to be blamed.

>>93554205
>4 former american soldiers and 1 moraly strong SHIELD official
>Guy from the Army, Oligarch, Fucking slave-robot-servant, African dictator and international assassin.
I can't even imagine who's better motivated to protect freedom of American people.

>>93567101
>aliens attack new york
Stark placed A GODDAMN NUCLEAR REACTOR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY. United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission? Fuck them, I'm rich and do whatever I want no matter how dangerous it may be. There is a fucking reason why nuclear station are placed away from cities and protected by armed guard.

Was it really government who send nuke, not SHIELD? I mean, plane flew out from SHIELD helicarrier, IIRC.

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>>93567138
>tony meets up with steve and bucky to take down zemo
>they find zemo
>zemo reveals that bucky was brainwashed into killing stark's parents and cap knew
>stark spends the rest of the movie trying to kill them and forgets about zemo
>black panther, a man that was hunting bucky for murdering his father, finds and captures zemo so that he can go to trial
>a man that just recently held his father as he died in his arms had a cooler head than stark who lost his parents several years ago

Stark is the same guy that messed around with an alien AI and told no one about it. And his solution was to do the same thing again (luckily he was right the second time). He calls out the Mandarin and doesn't even prepare for him and gets wrecked because he wants to use his shitty armor. This is the guy that immediately outs himself as Iron Man so that every one of his movies is some rich businessman trying to steal his tech and his company.

Stark is a menace that brings in more problems than he solves. He puts himself over others and his brief moments of true heroism is drowned out by his constant selfishness and arrogance.

>>93568815
Stark was a true villain in Civil War, it's not a news.

>>93568835

Then this thread is pointless. Team Cap.

>>93554717
You got it in reverse, from my limited experience.

>>93554717
Conservative here, cap is 100% right.

>>93569467
>>93569087
>>93554717

more like statists think Iron Man is right and sensible people think Cap is right

Natasha was most correct
>lets sign the acccords and if shit hits the fan we can just step in anyway

But Steve wouldn't listen to that because he was too prideful to sign something he didn't believe in and Tony would stall because he didn't want to be personally or legally responsible for civilian death

>>93562482
>God, the "Hydra is everywhere" storyline really fucked the MCU over when it came to depth. We can't even talk about the objective morality of this situation because everybody is convinced that Hydra is in charge of the UN.

We're everywhere, anon. Hail Hydra.

>>93566158

A lot of countries have a legal system based on presumption of guilt until proven innocent. You can thank Napoleon for that.

>>93568608
>4 former american
>Guy from the Army
Literally the same thing

>>93569946
Sorry, meant
>4 former american soldiers*

>>93563633

Why are people trying to punish Tony or Wanda for Ultron's actions? Ultron's a grown man, he's responsible for his own actions.

while i like tony more than cap, cap was right. the government has no right to interfere in lives of anyone, superhero or not.

>>93554205
>Tony creates Ultron
>it backfires horribly
>hurr durr we all need oversight
Steve, no doubt about that. Not only Tony was primarily motivated by guilt, but Ultron thing was the only one caused by them. Loki and Hydra helicarriers weren't even remotely their fault. Add to that the fact that the people who would control them would probably be the same people who would rather nuke NY rather than send the Avengers.

>>93559282
>>93562513

Visionposting is never going to be a thing, is it?

>>93561787
TELL ME WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR

The Avengers have yet to display any corrupt motivations or acted in any way that was in opposition to the well-being of humanity. Even as big a fuckup as Ultron was, his creation was an unforseeable accident made with the best intentions. Not once has any member of the Avengers put their own interest above the good of mankind. It's an entirely selfless group with basically no corruption whatsoever.

With that in mind, it's basically impossible to justify oversight of the organization except in that it threatens the power of illegitimate authorities. Obviously if the Avengers were portrayed more realistically and were susceptible to corruption and self-interest like the rest of humanity, some oversight from similarly self-interested parties would be justifiable. Unfortunately the Avengers are the unquestionable heros of an ongoing mythic fable, so questioning their moral authority is tantamount to arguing with God.

In a world with monsters and freaks like Thanos, heroes shouldn't be held in check by the government.

>>93554717
Liberal, and Stark was right.

>>93567029
It's not about control you pleb, is about interventionism.

>>93567139
That is the correct response. As people had said a number of times, in the real world swat team equivalents in Europe do the same, at least the terrorist is facing the ground with his hands on his back they will shot to kill.

Being mentally ill doesn't make you innocent, Bucky is a dangerous fugitive that is breaking the law, every day he remains in Europe. He chooses not to turn himself in and to move to a different densely populated city.

The fact he isn't in Siberia, Patagonia, or Alaska living alone is fucked up. Bucky isn't innocent. He is not guilty of the bombing, but is responsible for countless other deaths.

>>93572046
That sounds like something a neocon would say

>>93573004
And Steve position is the same george bush Jr had.

>>93570113
Not sure about Tony...childish hate for a man that's mentally ill but trying his best do good?

Wanda's hate stems from the fact that she was actively and willfully destructive in her assistance with Ultron and didn't care one bit who got hurt until she saw that Ultron's intentions were completely genocidal.

She never answered for any of that, and was instead taken in by the man she had done everything in her power to destroy...who she then betrays because he just wanted her to lay low until the world shut the fuck up about her.

>>93570207
The Avengers do, though, is what you're saying?

>>93554205
Cap
If Tony had his way. Zemo would have gotten away and the Avengers would have been government cronies

>>93554205
In a real world setting where you can't predict what the outcome would be, Tony is right, power needs oversight.

In a superhero setting where it's blatantly fucking obvious what the outcome would be, Cap is right. Every SINGLE god damned time external authority is applied to superheroes, it gets co-opted by a villain.

Every SINGLE god damned time.

And Cap knows it. He knew it in the comic version where right after registration passed, the Green God Damned Goblin took over the oversight agency and he knew it in the movie version where he had JUST gotten done fighting the oversight agency 'cause they'd been taken over by Hydra.

Every

God

Damned

Time

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>>93563633
>Is it because she's everyone's waifu?
Yes.
No bully pls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOpbcG4yxm8&t=4s

DCAU guys discussed this.

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>>93568815
To be fair, Stark's baggage had decades of bottling up and an active betrayal (albeit with best of intentions) by someone he trusted, not to mention all of the stress of the past few days and his mistake with Ultron, whereas T'Challa saw firsthand in Stark what his path of revenge could turn him into if he didn't.

Stark had a meltdown on the spot because he never confronted his grief, so his bottled up emotion exploded in a fit of vengeful rage, whereas T'Challa was already dealing with it in the moment and decided to let it go when he saw what it was doing to Stark.

After the fact, Stark seems to have chilled the fuck out and is in the process of dealing with his grief from a calmer, more collected state of mind. He's not so much a villain as he is an antagonist via circumstance.

>>93573723
This is objectively the right answer.In the MCU, DCCU, and X-Men films, the government is filled with paranoid idiots or crazy people, and the military is shown to be completely impotent against the supervillain.

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>>93573989
>those few seconds before Stark loses his mind where you can tell he's trying to compartmentalize everything

Why was Stark so good in this movie?

>>93554205
Cap was right about remaining independent without oversight. However, Tony was right about bringing in Bucky considering he's guilty of a lot of crimes.

>>93574669
About as guilty as Hawkeye is in avengers 1

>>93568641
>Was it really government who send nuke, not SHIELD? I mean, plane flew out from SHIELD helicarrier, IIRC.
Did you miss the part were Fury tries to shoot down the plane?

>>93573723
>In a real world setting where you can't predict what the outcome would be, Tony is right, power needs oversight.
>In a superhero setting where it's blatantly fucking obvious what the outcome would be, Cap is right. Every SINGLE god damned time external authority is applied to superheroes, it gets co-opted by a villain.

but the real world equivalent is them being controlled by the UN...which by definition means being co-opted by villains.So what you are saying is Cap is right in the real world version too

>>93575222
Yes, he did, but again, it wasn't the government and the accords are not about the government. And for the record Ross isnt comic Ross.

>>93573997
>In the MCU, DCCU, and X-Men films, the government is filled with paranoid idiots or crazy people
>implying real life is any different

>>93575286
In the real world Americans are the bad guys when it comes to International shit

>>93575382

so are the UN tho.

Actually here's a noggin jogger. What's an authority that it would make sense for the Avengers to be subservient to?

>>93575286
I meant that Tony is right philosophically.

There's not actually any practical way to make it work.

>>93575416
The un are not the bad guys, they are useless, but the fictional UN is still better to protect the rights and sovereignty of countries than a bunch of killers. Steve has no right to invade any country that doesn't ask for his help, at least no more than George Bush had right to invade Irak or Obama had the right to arm isis against Assad

>>93554205
Just like everything else American, both sides were right but disagreed because stupid shit and the refusal to compromise.

>>93573723
This. In the real world we'd have some city of heroes/one punch man/tiger & bunny/my hero academia set up.l as opposed to authorities that contract out to HAMMER, create a fake hulk that flattens Harlem, try to nuke new york and that are controlled by hydra

>>93554477
SHIELD put the Avengers together, and they filled the roster with the best that was in their organization. A master spy and assassin, and a marksman.

Not to mention the Avengers mostly goes after terrorists where those two specializations are useful.

>>93575538

except they didn't topple any regimes or arm any rebels.

This is like if you were getting mugged on your way home from work, then someone runs in and beats up the mugger and gets your shit back, then you freak out because the guy who helped you was foreign

>>93575416
Simple, the UN.

NATO countries would allow them free movement, other nations would let them in and act if needed (like the red cross) and always with cooperation and others wide just say fuck off that they can solve their own problems if they share intelligence.


As it should. MCU Steve is doing Exactly what Redford told him he should do in winter soldier, this is by far the most authoritarian and fascist version of Steve not counting brainwashed versions, ultimate cap would call this guy a fascist, his actions are no different than the ones of ultimate in ultimates 2

>>93575606
No, this is like someone breaking into your home and shooting your kid because he was hitting his sister. But as always, freedom and sovereignty only matter if it's American freedom and American sovereignty

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>>93575610
>NATO countries would allow them free movement, other nations would let them in and act if needed

GOOD ONE

http://teatotally.tumblr.com/post/144240012830/the-accords-were-always-a-disaster-in-the-making

>>93554543
so who is the bottom?

>>93575640

No, it's more like someone breaking into your home to fuck up your kids and then another guy breaks into your home to stop them.

>But as always, freedom and sovereignty only matter if it's American freedom and American sovereignty

No, freedom and sovereignty matter on an individual level. National borders don't exist. They are a fiction we use to help organize shit. America is nothing but imaginary lines on a map.There is no reason to care about it as an entity, the only thing you should care about is how it can be utilized for the benefit of individuals.

>>93575647
We are talking of their fictional universe. In ours they should just act in any country that invites them aka cucked zionist puppets

>>93554837

This, there are plenty of conservatives like myself who think there should be some limit on the kind of weapons you can own.

>>93554960
More like nuke control, not gun control. There's a reason we let people have AR-15s but not strategic bombers. One guy with a gun can't kill the same number as Nitro going boom in the same amount of time.

>>93575015
Hawkeye didn't run and unlike Bucky, was actually cleared of his brainwashing.

>>93554205
Ironman and Black Panther were fucking hypocrites so Cap by default?

>>93558634
Fuck you how dare you post your rationalized argument.

I don't necessarily agree with the argument but a rationalized argument is not allowed on 4chan, Where the fuck do you think this is.

>>93575564
just like everything else american you think 2 things can be right despite be contradictory.

>>93575753
Hawkeye didn't run because nobody fucking went after him. Because they knew it wasn't his fucking fault.

>>93573723
Is this another rationalized post I see. clearly you don't understand rationalized posts don't belong on 4chan.

>>93558634
>With governments and civilians having turned against the Avengers, there does seem to be no way to simply get rid of the Accords, so the best solution may indeed be to change them from within, to draw attention to the unworkable aspects, and the unnecessarily punitive measures.
Which is kind of Stark's endgame...so the way I look at it, neither Cap nor Stark are right...but Stark is slightly less wrong, in a practical sense.

>>93554205
I like how the entire SHRA got shelved by both Iron Man and Cap at the end when they had to team up to stop those super soldiers from getting out.

It felt better to me personally that Cap and Tony's big fight wasn't about any of that legal crap and was about Tony's mom's death and Cap and Bucky's involvement or cover up of it.

I think we can all agree Tony, whether he was right or wrong, was in the wrong thought-process.
He was being too emotional and irrational. He wanted the responsibility off of him for personal reasons, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

>>93575818
Nobody had any reason to; he was cleared by the Avengers themselves and SHIELD before he even returned to active duty.

Bucky ran for two years from everyone, even those that wanted to help him.

Just because he was brainwashed doesn't remove him from personal responsibility. If hawkeye had run from the helicarrier, you can be damn sure they'd be concerned about hunting down a rogue agent. Bucky sought no help for his condition, which was still potentially dangerous, and thus nobody had any reason to ignore his fugutive status, nor had any reason to believe he wasn't responsible for the bombing when the evidence pointed towards it.

>>93575988

But Bucky wasn't a danger to anyone UNTIL he was brought into custody and someone was able to get their hands on him...

really makes you think...

maybe he made the right call...

in fact I'm pretty sure after the police station attack he says that's what he was most worried about

>>93554717
>Conservatives
>In favor of more government oversight
>liberals
>not in favor of exchanging liberty for safety

Capes should only be regulated if their rights are guaranteed.

>>93576058
The circumstances behind that happened SPECIFICALLY because that person drew him out of hiding with the explicit intention of getting to him. Had Bucky turned himself in sooner and sought help, Zemo may not have ever had the chance to get to him in the first place, or if he did, Bucky may have been able to resist his conditioning. Hell, he might have even had a chance to come clean to Stark himself, which would have been a lot less disasterous if there was an element of apologetic honesty and personal remorse to the revelation.

Either way, Bucky may not have been guilty of the bombing, but he was guilty of resisting arrest from the day he left Hydra, which is the source of his and everyone else's problems surrounding him.

>>93574253
Because he's a good little mommy's boy.

>>93576081
Actually both sides would sacrifice their freedom in order to censor the other side.

>>93576151
>>93575988
This. A lot of the problems Bucky faces in Civil War stem from him running away not only from the authorities for two years, but also himself. He never faced his own demons, and it ended up biting everyone in the ass.

>>93576151

>The circumstances behind that happened SPECIFICALLY because that person drew him out of hiding with the explicit intention of getting to him.

yeah and if he was in jail, or in a psych ward it would have been even EASIER to get to him. I mean, look at it this way. With Bucky in prison or even just in a known location or listed in the phone book, anyone from Hydra could have got him at any time. With him off the grid the only way anyone could get him was the incredibly unlikely event an absolute madman committed a public bombing and framed him leading to a worldwide manhunt. If he was in custody, the same thing would have happened, only sooner, because the means to get to him would be a lot easier than those Zemo employed

Bucky knew there were still Hydra agents out there. Any one of them could have showed up and taken control of him if he turned himself in.

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>>93573989

And all he had to do was try to kill two people he should've been working with and allowing the villain to escape while Black Panther cleans up his mess for him.

See, Stark should be a government lackey so that the next time that happens they can shut down his suit and he will have no say.

And that's another thing. If everyone did sign up for the accords I'd be willing to bet that Stark would break it first. Steve is used to taking orders and the others would follow suit. But Stark has shown to be too emotional and too unstable at times to be completely reliable in following orders. He'd more than likely attempt to create a solution on his own and wouldn't run it past his superiors and even then he would still do it if they denied him.

It'd just end up with him being on the run as every single Avenger is hunting him down and wouldn't that be a nice twist?

>>93576265

One of the first things Bucky says after the police station attack is "I knew this would happen."

>>93561947
>fuck all fact around the world: the video
yeah, try to casually shoot 200+ pound bow

>>93576369
>>93576275
Then he TELLS the authorities this, and that they should only allow people to talk to him while under supervision by people he trusts. I'm sure Cap would have been happy to oblige, not to mention handle him with some help from a team prepared to assist in subduing a supersoldier if he gets out of control.

>>93576598
>Then he TELLS the authorities this
>the authority he told was Hydra
>game over

>>93576756
Hydra's agents were exposed and no longer an authority to anyone but other Hydra soldiers/agents. They can't hide in plain sight in any position of power or authority anymore, which is why they were in hiding.

Try again

>>93554717
Nah, you're wrong, anon.

>>93574669
>Cap was right about remaining independent without oversight

Yeah this has never gone wrong at all.

>>93576265
>Bucky knew there were still Hydra agents out there. Any one of them could have showed up and taken control of him if he turned himself in.

Zemo was able to dp what he did because he was never affiliated with Hydra. Hydra would have to take Bucky by force; they wouldn't be able to disguise themselves anymore after the Battle at the Triskelion.

>>93577351
>>93577550

Black Widow emptied one computer, a bunch of the shit on it was encrypted,and you think that exposed all of them?

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>>93576378
>fuck all fact around the world: the video

Nigga What???

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>>93554205

Dude, Wanda IS too powerful and reckless and needs to be locked away. I love Scarlet Witch, she's cute and a fun character. If she existed in the real world? You tell people MMA fights have to be handcuffed on flights and lots of people believe it. It's not true, but so often we accept a reality where we do things to keep people safe. Letting Wanda, or banner, roam free? Maybe that's ok. Putting them into scenarios where they have to save people? No way. They're too damn dangerous, keep them out of the fight.

>>93577849
That video is well known for being complete bullshit that ignores historical fact and reality while making a great deal of unsupported claims. He's making a bunch of trick shots using a low draw-weight bow while half drawing and firing at targets very close to him.

>>93577849
>Someone using my OC after all this time
I should have made the question marks a different color.

>>93554205
Captain America, because he didn't enable some cock sucking faggot ass parasitic shit headed fame obsessed troglodyte cunt to flaunt his fucking ego by giving him a professional gimp suit
In fact, in Iron Man 4, Tony is already facing the repercussions. Iron Man is now saddled with having to babysit this fucking lobotomized asshole through all his Disney Sitcom faggotry. To further complicate matters the accords slows down his involvement as that prick spider-boy sucks his cock non-stop and endangers innocent civilians in a vain attempt to court Tony to upgrade his poop chute with the iron cock.
tl;dr Cap was right

>>93555190
>How, exactly? With their own team of superheroes they didn't actually have? The Avengers had a monopoly on super people, they could name their terms, or none. Because it's not like the Earth has any other option.

The government could kill the Avengers, especially if they're only going after half of them . They're heavily nerfed from their comics counterparts, unlike the DCEU. I'm sure the government's been developing Avengers-busting weapons since the Chitaru invasion.

Also, I don't think Cap was thinking straight. Things are okay now, when it's only a small group of people with the same moral system that have powers. What happens in a couple of decades when more and more people have powers and they're acting as unrestrained military task forces or are directly being used by their nations' governments as weapons? There needs to be a legal framework and organization that is set up to handle and if need be punish super powered people.

>>93578616
>There needs to be a legal framework and organization that is set up to handle and if need be punish super powered people.

sure but that doesn't mean let the UN bully you into being their puppets.

"some oversight" doesn't mean "uncritically sign the first bill that gets put in front of you"

>>93554205
I sided with Cap, however I don't think Tony's reasons were bad. I also don't blame him for nearly killing Bucky. If I saw my parents get killed on camera by a guy standing next to me, I'd probably lash out too.

>>93561872
This is pedantic and unrelated, but odds are, the nuke would still have fucked the Chitauri on the other side.

It looks like there's maybe a kilometer or two between the portal and the mothership, if the nuke was detonated anywhere close to the portal's opening, the explosion would easily have traveled through and destroyed the Chitauri ship.

The plane-launched missile looks to be at least the size of missiles that could carry 200 kiloton warheads in the 70s. At 200kt, nukemap (http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/) puts the building-destroying range at over 2km.

>>93580331
The Chitauri ship was in space, which really fucks with the range of a nuke.

>>93554205
Cap-- the UN is just another Hydra- controlled body.

>>93554717
conservative here who was for Cap-- I think most conservatives would actually agree with Captain America-- The UN is pretty terrible at their job in real life-- and the aargument that the safest hands are our own is one likely to be echoed by conservatives-- I feel the Liberals would be more attracted to the idea that the avengers were somehow beholden to an international governing body,

>>93555190
agreed, the villian of age of Ultron is Tony Stark-- his personal guilt is blinding him-- and he's deflecting when he blames the avengers-- also-- people were going to die in that Crossbones explosion whether Wanda acted or not-- always thought that was a stupid plot point.

>>93554717
Engineers are the kinds of people who believe if they change enough variables they can fix human behavior-- and that belief leads them to thinking of people as statistics rather than individuals. Tony Stark is trying to engineer a better society-- but he just keeps making messes. I hope he dies in infinity war.

>>93555451
dude- maybe spider-man is actually the first real hero in the MCU

>>93555451
>ultron's baby robot
> the brother of the guy that attacked new york

judging people guilty because of who they happen to be related to

>>93559763
Rhodey is a fucking US Military Fucboi

>>93560422
Tony Stark could use some oversight, he should have been kicked the fuck out of the Avengers-- not resigned . Both Hulk and Stark caused this fucking terror, and both ran away like babies after the fact-- bruce fucked off to space and tony stopped being in the avengers to spy on a little boy in red and blue underoos.

>>93562214
Thor's got diplomatic immunity

>>93580993
It's just been revoked.

>>93562288
yeah, it was kind of a pointless movie

>>93578616
>The government could kill the Avengers,
AND THEN FUCKING WHAT!? There is no one and nothing to replace them, and they proved the world needs them how many times?

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FUN FACT: In early drafts Black Widow and Vision would be anti-reg and Hawkeye and Ant-Man would be pro-reg. They changed it to create more conflict.

Pic related, official concept art of Steve VS. Scott from when Scott as team Stark.

>>93563669
>ak human but isn't as good as bullseye, and Mcu isn't as good and is not peak human either.
>>>
WAIT WAIT WAIT

so is THAT why Tony acted like such a dick and unlike himself in Civil War? This is the guy that told Congress he had "privatized world peace"-- and now he's advocating UN interference in Avengers business? Is he still mind-fucked? Was what Wanda did permanent?

>>93564540
yeah but cap knew hydra had brainwashed him-- so his assumption he was innocent by way of being controlled wasn't stupid

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Also, a neat dialogue exchange that got cut from the movie.

>TONY: Steve...

>STEVE: Don't, Tony.

>TONY: Don't what? Don't try to get you to stop acting like an ass or don't call you an ass in the first place... Oops, too late.

>STEVE: I'm glad someone is enjoying himself.

>TONY: Man, what is it with you? You dress up in the flag, you name yourself after our country, but the minute the actual government asks for some accountability, you go all James Dean. You may be schizo... Or maybe just a tiny bit of a liar.

>STEVE: You pulled your weapons contracts, you sat in front of the Congress and told them they couldn't have your Iron Man technology, because you were the only one responsible enough to use it. Now you're willing to let them turn us into a branch of the military, no questions asked. If you want schizo... Look in the mirror.

>TONY: I cancelled my contracts so that I could stop people from getting killed. Same with giving away my suit. But people are dying anyway, because of me... Us.

>STEVE: War isn't clean, Tony. And no matter how high the tech, it's rarely precise. There's always collateral damage. That's why it's fought by soldiers, not businessmen.

>TONY: That's your problem, Steve. You're still at war. 70 years and you're still in the trenches with your old old rules and ideas. I'm trying to build the future, and you're trashing half of Europe trying to raise the dead.

>>93564702
that's funny, I had the opposite feeling-- I used to love Iron Man, and watching him bend to the will f the government-- I loved that congress scene in Iron Man 2-- I found I liked him a lot less-- he was doing a lot of telling people what they should do and treating cap like a baby-- and it looks like he's going to do the same thing to spider-man in Homecoming-- I found I like him a lot less-- to the point of wanting to see him get his ass handed to him. it's actually a sign of a good movie when it can be so polarizing-- they'rre fake people-- but we all give a shit about them, and very strongly.

>>93565372
>Tony was right at first

Do you remember the reason Cap was anti-registration in the comics? SHIELD told him to hunt down any heroes that didn't comply with the order and when he refused, they immediately tried to kill him. He was only 95% right in the movie but 1000% right in the comics

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>>93580469
Yeah, Nukes mostly rely on a shockwave, which can't happen in a vacuum. Stark is the one that really insured the damage hit them.

You can thank Iron Man for the fact that in the MCU, there is still an MCU, from both a production standpoint and from a in-universe perspective.

>>93581183
Parts of it are still in the movie.

There's more of an emphasis here in the soldier Vs futurist angle.

>>93554477
They're both elite SHIELD agents who happened to be involved in the team's formation. They're still involved because they're friends of the rest of the team.

>>93581106
Tony is still paranoid that everyone is going to die.

It's the lingering effect of what he saw in Avengers 1 and what he saw via Wanda, combined with guilt over Ultron.

>>93581183
Thia is brilliant dialogue. No matter how on-the-nose it is, it hits hard as a motherfucker

>>93554477
One's a spy and the other is a master marksman.

>>93578146
The situation with Wanda is difficult. She's very powerful, but does not fully understand her powers (no one does). Even she is scared of herself. The fact everyone is scared of her except Vision, is a huge problem. (What Amygdala has to do with Lagos confuses me TBQH).

Of course, like Steve, she's an isolated person with little connection to the rest of humanity (Steve due to being out of time, Wanda due to loss of home and family).

It's then exascerpated by Tony not talking to her about the situation (they both need to talk, but haven't), and the team as a whole not dealing with the situation as a team.

Tony has no family other than the Avengers and Pepper.
In Tony's eyes, Bucky destroyed his old family, then Steve destroyed his new family.

>>93582699

Ironically I'm pretty sure Steve has more friends than Tony. I mean he's got Falcon, Bucky, seems to at least be on good terms with Panther at the end, and then Widow clearly likes him more than she likes Iron Man and Hawkeye seems to as well.

Iron Man just has Rhodey, Pepper, and Happy.

>>93582828
Steve has Wanda too.
And the best part is that it was telegraphed in early as Age of Ultron
>What sort of monster would let a German scientist experiment on them for the good of their country?

>>93582699
Now that Doctor Strange has entered the scene wouldn't it be smart to let him train Wanda, or at least with her? I know she isn't exactly using magic. But if anyone could figure it out it'd be him.

>>93582828
I'm not sure how close any non-Wakandan can be to Black Panther, though he and Steve have that "trying to be a good man" and warrior comradeship.

>>93582828
He might have Peter too.

>>93554205
Neither, they were both played by their enemies

>>93582918
Whedon is not good at writing Cap but that is a great line.

>>93582828
>Pepper, and Happy.

Former employee (who is no longer contractually obligated to do an MCU film and Feige will likely NEVER pay what she would want to come back to even do a glorified cameo, so -MINUS that one;

Current employee, no matter how friendly, doesn't count.

>>93584394
>Peter

Nah, Manletman's just Peter's sugar daddy. By the time of Infinity War, Peter will have switched sides just as with the comics Civil War.

>>93568883
>Then this thread is pointless

truer words
except the only thing better on a dateless Saturday night for a bunch of men children is an argument about waifus

>>93563683

I have no concept of how you think your argument disproves that ULTRON WAS NOT TONY'S fault. He's giving an Alien interface that he neither is familiar with and admittedly doesn't understand, access to his Iron Soliders, by your own statement.

Ergo, TONY IS AT FAULT. I didn't see Black Widow or Hawkeye give Ultron access, did you? Or did you see Bucky sneak in (or Zemo make it LOOK like Bucky snuck in) and do it?

No, TONY DID IT, while he went out and got drunk and showed off.

>>93582699

You don't put an untrained persons like wanda into a fight. She let stark make ultron, let loose hulk, she's hurt and killed a lot of people. Keep her away from those scenarios, she is trouble.

>>93554477
Because they have together accomplished things on par with what Cap has done without any of his gifts.

>>93560508
The biggest thing that blew my mind was the casualty numbers. They removed them by the time the movie released but the trailer had them, and it was hilarious to me. They showed the battle of new york having something like 18 casualties, and the sokovia incident having like 50.

These are remarkable numbers, really. The chitauri pour from the sky with no greater goal than "kill anything prettier than yourself", and their entire armada of thousands gets stopped in 30 minutes or less by 6 people, who also managed to keep the death toll less than 100? And this is not taking into account the fact that we fired a nuke at our own people?

If you presented this scenario to any president, every one of these people would be medal of honor recipients.

>>93590405
>things on par with what Cap has done

I dunno about that man, I mean he basically won WW2 and also stopped the biggest conspiracy in human history

>>93555190
>But Cap was right about Bucky, he was innocent
Yeah but he's still a fucking faggot for taking sides. Justice isn't black nor white, its gray.

>>93554477
Hawkeye is the greatest marksman in the world.

>>93590939
Alright, perhaps they don't stand toe to toe with Cap, but to be fair, stopping the biggest conspiracy in human history wouldn't have happened without Widow there.

Cap got his heart from ww2 and his strength from a bottle, but he got his sneaky from Natasha.

>>93581488
And further, in comics the exact chain was something to the tune of:

Maria Hill: Okay, so this bill is going to be voted on and we already know it's going to go through, we're going to start pre-emptively enforcing it.

Mr. Rogers: but that's not how our legal system works!

MH: And that's nice, Steve, I realize that, but could you maybe explain it to my friend, mr. 9mm?

I don't see how anyone can think Tony is right.

Governments wanted to nuke New York to kill the aliens and create helicarriers capable of killing anyone on the planet that got hijacked by HYDRA.

The Avengers aren't perfect, but they do what they do out of a genuine sense of duty with saving lives as their main intent. They wouldn't dick around internationally unless it were absolutely necessary.

>>93563126
>Irak
>anti intervention

Hello, Russkie, fuck off to sosach.