I got pretty mixed messages from this volume. Is gaiman implying

>>93451227
Maybe it was a different time and neil wasn't too sensitive and just wrote it in a way that fit the story regardless of implication?

>>93451227
>Is gaiman implying that transwomen can't be women on a spiritual level?
No, it's saying that the moon rely on genetic code rather than the inner soul to give a pass. Meaning that even gods have their own fixated definition of gender.

i am imagining face-on wall speak like that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9MZNEXrElw

>>93451348
Aren't they supposed to be a reflection of the kindly ones? why would they give a shit about the genetics of creatures that started existing infinity after their own creation? Idk, when you're working with gods it seems like you're working with greater truths. even the arbitrary has some kind of implied significance, that's kinda why we have god concepts in the first place, because we crave objective meaning.

This thread isn't going to end well, but to try getting a helpful word in before it goes to shit; Neil is a fairly "progressive" guy in terms of his personal politics and Wanda was at least partially inspired by trans women Neil personally knew, but this is probably one of the earliest attempts to address a character like her in comics and also a pretty different time.

Neil's take on this;
>I’ve seen as many trans people getting upset about Wanda as I’ve had trans people coming up to me and saying, “I read Wanda and realized what I was, she gave me the strength to come out, she gave me the strength to transition.” Mostly, for the first 20 years, what I got was people saying, “I’d never seen another trans character in a mainstream comic. Thank you so much.” Wanda wasn’t written for any reason than, a lot of my [friends] were trans, and I didn’t see them represented anywhere in fiction. Would her story get written today? Probably I wouldn’t write that—partly because we have some fantastic trans authors out there telling their own stories.
>And partly because the audience, when I was writing Sandman, what I liked best was the idea that audiences were going to be meeting people they might not be meeting in daily life. They were going to meet gay people. They were going to meet trans people. And I knew that was working the moment we got the letter from the Concerned Mothers of America letting us know that the American Family Association was formally boycotting Sandman unless we apologized and mended our ways and didn’t put any of these characters into the book anymore. And you probably don’t know this, historically, but we didn’t apologize, we didn’t change, and as far as I know there is still a boycott going on 25 years later! I have this vision of the American Family Association people picking up their newsletter and going, “[Has Vertigo] apologized? Can I read Sandman yet? Shit, they haven’t.”

>>93451227
Actually, that's quite a powerful pro-trans message. it's outright saying that even the Gods have the right to tell people what gender they are and if they don't like it they can stuff it up their sacred recta.

>>93451394
>Idk, when you're working with gods it seems like you're working with greater truths
How much of gaiman have you read? He tend to depict gods as administrative clusterfuck who barely know more than human how things are run.

>>93451227
"It doesn't netter what gods or government or your parents think, in the end it's about your self-perception."

>>93451402
>Wanda wasn’t written for any reason than, a lot of my [friends] were trans, and I didn’t see them represented anywhere in fiction.
Nowadays, people complain about that "being a agneda" and invalidating the writing. Because somehow, being politically motivated when you write nullify the quality of your work and somehow minority can only be introduced under pure "neutral" motivation for them to have a pass.

People shoufd never complain about agenda. if the sotry is shit, call it shit, but don't blame the agenda unless you actually morally disagree with it. The "I have nothing against XXX, but it shouldn't be used as a reason to write a story" is and has always been a BS argument.

Wanda was a woman when she stood at Death's side.

>>93451458
This. The powers-that-be are inflexible and deeply traditionalistic. Dream has to go to increadibly elaborate lengths to try and change even his own existance

>>93451227
Transwomen can't be real women, ever. They can approximate one, but they will never be a true woman. Fairly obvious.

>>93451227
As Gaiman says in >>93451402 , he isn't specifically saying "trans women aren't actual women" or "trans woman are actual women". He's just portraying this character based on what inspired him. I don't think the message is political: if anything, it's to show Wanda's determination, and, if I recall correctly, she's the leading character in the narrative. It's character building, not agenda slinging.

But in general, the Gods of the Sandman universe and those that Gaiman writes in his works, are closer to the ancient Greek or Egyptian or Norse concept of "gods" than the modern one: essentially humanoid beings with their own flaws and ways of thinking. And as the story shows, they're very much about following the "rules".

>>93451394
Gaiman is very pro-trans. His personal writings should make that clear.

Whether he handled it well is up to you, but the message here is that understanding and accepting yourself is something that needs to happen independent of outside validation. The gods are just as much "people" in Gaiman's writing as mortals, and have their own convictions and beliefs.

>>93451517
I don't think anyone is actually against political writing. The problem is when you're writing a story as a piece of propaganda or moralism rather than as a story.
It's not like a story can't be shit BECAUSE it tries to be political.
Additionally times have changed, what has once been speaking truth to power could now be patronizing to the reader.

File: 3d4.jpg (21KB, 500x292px) Image search: [Google]

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Eventually we're going to look back at this nonsense and wonder what in the fucking fuck were we thinking.

>>93451627
>The problem is when you're writing a story as a piece of propaganda or moralism rather than as a story
then the issue is still not the agenda, but how you wrote the story. And yet the agenda is all you'll see people complain about.

And then you'll see people who take shortcut as
>it has minority>theretofore it has an agenda>therefore it is bad
while tuning out their brain in a Pavlovian reflex disregarding whether or not the story is good.

>could now be patronizing to the reader.
That's not an issue either. big boobies are also patronizing and there is nothing wrong with that.

>>93451698
Transgender is thousands of years old and has a basis in biology. it's unfair to lump it in with new age retardery like otherkin and non-binary.
either way, you're probably wrong, even if it is seen as wrong eventually it'll just be part of cultural heritage, because people really don't judge the past too harshly

>>93451698
The helicopter analogy never made sense.

there is scientific proof of the physiology of the brain backing up the existence of trans.

>>93451227
The ending of the story very explicitly shows that Wanda's identity is of her own definition, especially on a spiritual level.

>>93451762
All that matters is what that person thinks of themselves. Trying to have the world view you the way you want is an impossible task.

>>93451737
>And yet the agenda is all you'll see people complain about.
because the problem with the story was that it was agenda driven.
I don't see how big boobies are patronizing. Big boobies are appealing to some people, that's not really patronizing as much as it's lazy. and no one is trying to change minds with boobies, it's speaking to another place, it doesn't deserve to be held to the same standard.
Sometimes it being bad and it being political is intrinsically tied, cause you're addressing real issues and you'll be judged more harshly.
Are you saying all entertainment should be held to the same standard regardless of topic? Should porn be as harshly criticized for a poor narrative as a cultural work?

>>93451698
I know you're fishing for responses.

That image though. I've pissed alongside women and frankly you shouldn't be taking interest in what's going on next to you anyways. Or if you do it should be both verbally and physically.

>>93451757
I always took it as /k/ being a magical place.

>>93451227
You'll notice that the person saying this is an asshole and the person who disagrees with him at the end is Death of the Endless.

Think on this and you'll have your answer.

>>93451802
>because the problem with the story was that it was agenda driven.
Even there, the agenda isn't the issue. And evne a story being agenda driven isn't a bad thing in itself. It's still about how you write it, driven or not. Agenda shouldn't be the issue.

When you see complain such as "it's done to promote that gays aren't evil" it say absolutely nothing on what could be improved on the work for it to be good.

It's like saying "This comic is just cheesecake and easy-fap material", how do you get a more meaningful writing from that?

those aren't critics, but complains.

>>93451227
>Is gaiman implying that transwomen can't be women on a spiritual level? Or is he somehow implying that the biological construction is more important to gods that precede humanity by aeons? And then in death she's a fully fledged woman ghost so what gives?
Apparently he was trying to say that... it's arbitrary and some gods will consider them women and some won't?
I'm not sure there's actually a point there.

Who here would let Wanda fuck them?

>>93451902
That it's arbitrary depending on the individual is the point.
Wanda's own parents can't accept her identity and thus don't really understand anything about her, while her friend can and does.

>>93451802
>I don't see how big boobies are patronizing. Big boobies are appealing to some people, that's not really patronizing as much as it's lazy. and no one is trying to change minds with boobies, it's speaking to another place, it doesn't deserve to be held to the same standard.
IT say "don't be so uptight and enjoy the boobies". It can be taken as an anti-puritanist message.

>Sometimes it being bad and it being political is intrinsically tied
It's not. It never is. no matter how much a bad work it's tied to an agenda, you can fully improve on it without mentioning the agenda once.

>Are you saying all entertainment should be held to the same standard regardless of topic?
YES 100% YES.
>Should porn be as harshly criticized for a poor narrative as a cultural work?
you fap enough and you start to care about the quality of the work helping your enjoyment.

>>93451757

Of course there's a physiological cause behind it. The question is whether it makes them "wrong-gendered brain in the wrong-gendered body that requires corrective surgery and hormone treatments" or whether it's a mental disorder.

>>93451740
>Basis in biology
No. No it really doesn't beyond something similar to bipolar or schizophrenia which is pathways being developed mostly due to outside forces. Stop trying to legitimize Psych majors and people who BS about "brain mapping". Stop merging trans with people who are born with hermaphroditism.

Go kill yourself tranny. You're a fetishist who can only live in delusions.

>>93451519

yeah i haven't even read the damn thing and i know that ending

>>93452131
>The question is whether it makes them "wrong-gendered brain in the wrong-gendered body that requires corrective surgery and hormone treatments" or whether it's a mental disorder.
It's the first one.

>>93451227

Neil Gaiman was just being honest. It's the same thing as how he had Wanda drawn to look like a man in a wig and not as a woman or how it was pointed out in the end that the idealized version Wanda became after death was different from Wanda's body in life. He took the idea of transsexualism seriously and didn't sugarcoat it with bullshit fantasies where the tranny magically looks and functions exactly like a woman.

>>93452167
>No. No it really doesn't
It does.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
>The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
>Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

>>93452167
>Stop trying to legitimize psych majors
>while trying to legitimize himself as a bigot
Lel

>>93452131
the only physiological examples we find are them being same-brained as cis females, so scientific findings would imply they are wrong-bodied above anything else.
That's hardly important anyways. What's important is that there's a neurological/physiological abnormality, and it causes emotional and physical distress. what can we do to treat this? the science is clear here, the most effective way to better the mental health is transition.

>>93452266
Sure Jan.

>>93452302

>the science is clear here, the most effective way to better the mental health is transition.

But they will never be biologically female. Unless there comes a day where this sort of thing can be fixed or prevented before the child is born, they will never have the lived experiences of actually being the gender their brain is telling them they are.

>what can we do to treat this?

I view it as a matter of priority that finding a means of bringing the brain in line with the biological reality of their body should take precedence over altering the physical body into something that superficially resembles the biological reality of their brain.

>>93451227
>Expecting old gods to go with what you want to be true.

Because the fucking moon is going to give you a pass on your gender identity.

File: 68704bf432794694c32b212b0892adcb[1].jpg (134KB, 572x606px) Image search: [Google]

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>>93452266
>>93451884
>>93452266

Part of the page in question.

>>93452549
>But they will never be biologically female.
this is relevant why?
surely happiness is more important?
>>93452549
>I view it as a matter of priority that finding a means of bringing the brain in line with the biological reality of their body
even ignoring that this is just another form of manipulating the body, it's also such an advanced form of neurological manipulation that it's straight up completely impossible. It'd be much easier to, say, invent eternal youth

>>93452617
is neil gaiman baiting transpeople into killing themselves? outrageous.

>>93452549
>But they will never be biologically female.
That's where MEDICAL PROGRESS will disagree with you.

We are getting closer to grow functioning organs in labs, there has already been successful uterus transplant which bear child afterwards. Genetic therapy is fully a thing.
meaning htat one can not get organ transplants of the opposite sex, but even get the XY changed in XX or vice-versa and be able to produce child as member of the opposite gender.

It's only a matter of years.

>>93452624
>it's also such an advanced form of neurological manipulation that it's straight up completely impossible.

Could you please just go back to tumblr?

>>93452549
>I view it as a matter of priority that finding a means of bringing the brain in line with the biological reality of their body should take precedence over altering the physical body
For what hellish reason do you consider identity deaht better than simply adapting the body to what the person identify with?

You are literally saying that the structure of the brain is less important than the structure of the rest of the body.

the structure of he brain is also a biological reality, yet you decide it doesn't count.

>>93452624

>surely happiness is more important?

Are those two things mutually exclusive? Surely being biologically the gender their brain is insisting they are would provide them with the greatest degree of happiness.

File: 154878-45117-wanda.jpg (89KB, 349x448px) Image search: [Google]

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>>93452617
I'd a Real Wanda

>>93452687

So mental abnormalities shouldn't be treated if the person's personality is altered in any way as a result?

>>93452659
>let's change these very specific parts of the brain that are formed in the womb and are basically static postpartum. that are affected by thousands of variables we don't know how to interact with in the most complex organ of the human body

>>93452659
Not him, but I fail to see the connection between pointing out that we lack the capacity to alter the physiology of the brain precisely to change the gender identity, with being tumblr.

>>93452695
yes I agree. That's why I'm saying it's not really important what you think their gender is on an ideological level, what is mentally best for the person involved should take priority. And transition has shown to be the best way to improve the mental health of transpeople of the methods available.

>>93452766
Except it hasn't; the suicide rates, etc show no meaningful deviation for post op or pre op.

>>93452736
How are you going to figure out what they do?

>>93451227
> Reading too much into things the thread

>>93452720
That should only be in last resort if the person is truly unable to live and interact with other. something transgender have no issues with.

No to mention, unlike people suffering from delusion, Trans perceive a reality. Their brainis physiologically of the opposite gender of their genital, they are not delusional.

If their brain were place in a female body, they would be perfectly healthy. so why think the issue is with the brain when altering the rest of the body turn it into a perfectly fit person?

>>93452654
And the day that happens and they can have a period and have children and such, I'll call them women.

>>93452736

So science shouldn't even bother attempting to figure out how to do that?

>>93452814
But what makes this difference to any other mental abnormality?

>>93452796
Wrong. people keep repeating that, but there is nothing having ever backed this claim.

>>93452796
We don't really have pre-op stats on suicide rates. Not to mention that SRS is not everything when it comes to transition.
Mental health is very consistently improved on HRT, but suicide rates during pre-transition is impossible to gauge due to the closeted nature(it's also not the only way to gauge happiness.)
>>93452805
centuries of research. certainly not through seeking a treatment to something that is really rare like GID

>>93452834
Science can also make products that can kill you in a few seconds, that doesn't mean we should do this.

the issue, here, is that it's identity death. It's not "curing" a person, it's killing it to replace it with somebody else.

>>93452834
It should. please be pragmatic though, this is like saying we shouldn't give cancer patients chemo because time machines would be better. Although in this case what is better is a lot less ethically blurry.

>>93452736
>Instead let's mutilate the body into a facsimile of the opposite sex and rework society around a tiny percentage of the population.

I feel sorry for the people who think they're Napoleon. We shouldn't have been trying to treat them, we should have been crying out 'Vive l'empereur!' and hastening them to Versailles.

>>93452838
the fact that if the brain was put unchanged in a body of the opposite gender, then the person would be fully healthy with no mental issues.

this isn't the case with other mental conditions.

>>93452870
>the issue, here, is that it's identity death. It's not "curing" a person, it's killing it to replace it with somebody else.

That's just as retarded as saying any medication prescribed for an illness is "killing someone". Or saying anybody who works hard to change adjust who they are or how they think "killed" the person they used to be.

>>93452944
>an illness

More specifically, I meant mental illness.

>>93452905

>the fact that if the brain was put unchanged in a body of the opposite gender, then the person would be fully healthy with no mental issues.

Has this been done?

>>93452890
That's simplistic there's no evidence they have the brain of Napoleon.

>>93451227
Gaiman's gods have always been depicted as metaphors for life being cruel and chaotic.
Despite their abilities they're even more flawed than humans due to their bullshit traditionalism and lack of empathy.

It'd be a mistake to ever consider their opinion a solid fact.

>>93452890
So, assume that the current science is right, and people with gid actually have a brain that is more similar to the opposite gender. Why should it be an issue to treat these people as the gender that they neurologically fit? how does it inconvenience you?
Let's say someone transplanted your brain into a body of the opposite gender, would it be wrong for you to seek a correction for this?

>>93452890
>I feel sorry for the people who think they're Napoleon. We shouldn't have been trying to treat them, we should have been crying out 'Vive l'empereur!' and hastening them to Versailles.
Except psychotic delusion isn't the same as Gender dysphoria. case in point, giving anti-psychotics (who are proved to work for psychotic people) doesn't work for trans.

>>93452981
Well that implies brain transplants are possible and it's literally not my body in any form.

>>93451517
yep. Triumph of the will and battleship Potemkin are both stellar films despite the fact that they're both both bald faced propaganda. What matters is that they were made with competent artistry. The fact that they aimed to reflect political ideology by their filmic techniques is secondary.

>>93452944
But they're accepting the medication of their own volition as is the person trying to change themselves. Not being forcibly altered in a way that they don't believe is best for them

>>93452944
>>93452953
It's not retarded.

Gender IS part of the identity of a person. Not to mention, medication that later the personality of a person should only be given in last resort. There is other resort for trans.

> Or saying anybody who works hard to change adjust who they are or how they think "killed" the person they used to be.
You miss the fact that the will to change come from the person itself.

>>93452955
Giving the brain of a trans the hormonal feedback it expect has shown improvement.

>>93453024
It's an analogy, whether brain transplant is possible is irrelevant to the argument.

>>93452981

Well, just as a general rule, I don't really like lying to people.

>>93453052
So what if the tranny wants to take the medication to be normal?

>>93453042
see>>93451517
>but don't blame the agenda unless you actually morally disagree with it
Wow, the actual post you quoted.
You can complain about an agenda if you disagree with the agenda itself. But if you agree with the message, then it's not valid to complain that a piece of work contain it.

>>93453082
you realize that the people that want people to be obligated to treat transpeople with proper pronouns and such are an extreme minority that isn't even trans, right? it's just political crap, focusing on that kind of people is just misguided. For example, the recent laws in canada are opposed by the majority of canadian transpeople.

>>93453089
The medication they want to take to be normal is the hormonal treatment, though. And it's how they start to finally feel normal.

>>93452981
Honestly, who gives a fuck? Why would someone define themselves with gender? Seems pretty fucked up and superficial.
Like, "Oh, doctor. Give me a surgery so I can wear different clothes, but do everything else in my life the exact same way"

>>93453136

What if they want to feel normal in their own birth body without attempting to transition?

>>93453049
Nobody's talking about forcing any adults into doing anything, at least not the people I responded to. The question boils down to "is it ethical to alter a child in the womb before they are born?" A fetus can't "believe" anything is best for them, and we can't very well use time travel to ask their adult self what they would've wanted.

I'd argue the answer depends on what the desired outcome is, the impact it would have on that child's life, and the risks to the child if the procedure is performed. Assuming you can control for the risks, the positive impact of having no gender dysphoria seems pretty clear.

>>93453181
I agree that defining yourself by gender is stupid, or defining yourself by anything you can't change for that matter.
The point is that it's a physical thing, it's not a mentality, the distress is unavoidable unless given treatment. You're mistaking very real GID with the social movement of transtrenders on tumblr.
"oh doctor give me medication so I don't feel deeply distressed about my body on a fundamental level".

>>93453212
That's a big what if. but the key point is the respect of the will of the patient. though, most likely, a brain surgery is most likely an option that will never be taken by a tarns.

>>93453212
Then they're fucked, because we don't have the medicine for that despite having invested a lot more research in that.

>>93453136
But they could feel normal without having to go through hormone or surgery, their bodies could match their minds, and be fully functional and wouldn't have to deal with people being in disagreement as to whether or not getting your genitals flipped inside counts.
Your scenario only works in which a person is comfortable with pursuing reassignment rather than wishing there was a way to actually be comfortable with what they have.
>>93453181
That's arguing from an area where you actually are comfortable with your gender. Being a boy doesn't define you because you actually want to be a boy in the first place. It just works.

>>93453238
>I agree that defining yourself by gender is stupid, or defining yourself by anything you can't change for that matter.
The part of yourself you cna't change are as much part of your identity as the part you can change.

>>93453049

Okay, so I'm the anon that first brought up the "changing the brain" thing, and where the fuck did you get the idea that I was suggesting transgendered people should be "forced" to get this hypothetical treatment?

>>93451227
The world is full of bullshit, gods are dicks. Death accepts everyone for who they are.

It's not rocket science, OP.

>>93453259
>But they could feel normal without having to go through hormone or surgery
The fuck? Having to chang ethe structure of your brain would require one of the most dangerous kind of surgery.

Not to mention, we actually are just a few years away from being able to transtion a person to someone fully able to reproduce and passing on their own genes, while what you propose is still on the level of fantasy.

Your whole point fall flat. Transitioning, IS the less heavy operation.

>Your scenario only works in which a person is comfortable with pursuing reassignment rather than wishing there was a way to actually be comfortable with what they have.
This is the case of basically all of the trans.

>>93453272
Sure, but I think it shows weakness of character to define yourself by them. the things you're born with are not unique, you'll never really establish a strong individuality by hedging your identity by sex or race or nationality.
GID is a totally removed issue, it's not about identity, it's about a very real issue that needs to be fixed, Not all transpeople transition because they want to, they do it because it's the only way to get better.

>>93453358
>Sure, but I think it shows weakness of character to define yourself by them.
IT is not weakness to know the part of yourself you can't change. Quite on the contrary, it can make you much stronger than most.

>>93452549
>finding a means of bringing the brain in line with the biological reality of their body should take precedence over altering the physical body into something that superficially resembles the biological reality of their brain.
Well, I'm sure when you figure out how to fucking do that, everyone will be happy. This isn't the 1950s, anon, you can't just scoop parts of the brain out and pretend your keeping the same person afterwards. Your idea is pure science fiction at best. Are you really, honestly, that upset about trans people existing that you think nonexistent brain surgeries are a smarter idea?

>>93452617
Death is the best. It would be really comforting if she was really waiting for us all at the end.

>>93453259
> because you actually want to be a boy in the first place

This is only true because I don't want to deal with wage discrimination.

>>93453238
Then let me re-answer the analagoy: I wouldn't try to fix it. There would be no distress. Unless there's distress from physically changing bodies and then there would be a whole, "Let's try to figure out how this happened" probably, because I'm guessing I would either look different than my ID, so I would have to get that sorted out, find another job, and do all that stuff that people who turn into other people do. Or I could find out how it happened and go back to my normal life. Basically, bad analagy, but fun premise

>>93452824
But, who the fuck cares what you think, anon? Honestly?

>>93451227
The problem is it's gotten incorrect to observe that there is anything unreal about it. Even Batgirl observing that a man in a dress is a man in a dress caused a freak out.

This says nothing about how trans people should be treated. We let people call their adopted children their children after all.

But "there's no difference and if you say there is you will pay" is bad for art. It would be like if you couldn't say an adopted child has real parents. In decades ago writers could be more honest but still sympathetic.

>>93453447

Well preferably this mental abnormality would be solved in the womb and not necessitate post-natal surgery at all.

>>93453529
>Even Batgirl observing that a man in a dress is a man in a dress caused a freak out.
I thought the freak out was about the trans being a villain.

>>93453523
>Unless there's distress from physically changing bodies
that's the entire fucking point, female and male brains are different, a male brain does not feel well in a female body and vice versa.

>>93453524

Well apparently a good number of people care that people like him think the way they do.

>>93453545
anon, much more likely, if trangenderism could be detected in-womb, just like homosexuality, the most likely reaction wouldn't be in-womb operation, but abortion.

>>93452824
this might happen in your lifetime.

>>93453529
Wait, so what if you're a man in a dress compared to a man in a dress that wants to be a woman?

>>93453354
>years away
Are we REALLY anon?

>>93453602

Well that solves the problem either way, doesn't it?

>>93453583
I'd like to see your evidence.

>>93453584
Yeah, but that's here. Here we fucking will take time out of our day to argue with a guy over BvS for hours. Anon probably doesn't know any trans people in real life, and was raised a certain way to feel a certain way about them. So what? He could be a flat earther or an antivaccer on top of it, but most of us will never have to deal with anon in person. The fact that he's so afraid of trans people (and maybe any number of other people he has no experience with) will mostly just limit his life, none of ours.

I think the comic in question is great, probably one of my favorite arcs. Wanda was great, and a true friend who would have done a lot more to help if the moon goddess wasn't such a dick. Old hobo lady who didn't like dogs was cool, too. Hell, all the characters had something neat going on.

>>93453651
every heard of gender dysphoria? or people getting hrt without being trans? it's pretty easily provable and fairly well documented. hormonal disorder causes distress.

>>93453703
Missing the point. I need proof that the brain is actually that of the opposite gender than the body in which it is located.

>>93453610
Then you're Frank West.

>>93453747
Then go do hours of online research and come back. It really feels like you're begging anon to spoonfeed you a lot more information then anyone is every going to type to you on 4chan. Shit, are you really just lazy? Don't talk if you're not informed on what you want to talk about.

>>93453631
-Bleached out organs, completely stripped from any organic part, is left with a grid/structure made of calium and other non-organic elements. introducing stem-cells to it, the stem-cell will naturally develop to that structure to become that organ again, expect now, fully compatible with no risk of rejection from the stem cell donors. Several success have been accomplished on rats.

-complex 3D printing has really been improving those recent years, making a printing of such structure nearly possible, you just have to follow a model.

-It has become more and more easy to tranform back normal cell into pluri-potent cell, aka stemcell.

-Genetic therapy can now modify any part of the DNA tha need to be modified. that apply to the XX and XY genes too, meaning one can be changed to the other.

-Uterus transplantation has been possible and has worked, with the receiver even conceiving child after ward. the Surgeons have confirmed such an operation could work on a man too.

We are that close. All the elements are there.

>>93453792
I'm just being an asshole. I feel bad for you.

>>93453747
see>>93452286

>>93453567
No he wasn't supposed to be trans, but the normal human reaction of "that's a man in disguise" is now 'phobic.

Surely we can treat people nice without making artists rewrite realistic human reactions.

>>93453802
Yeah, a buddy was telling me about an article he read about new stemcell research, and being able to clone specific organs. Hell of a time to be alive, if you're rich enough to enjoy any of these advances when they are ready.

>>93453820
You feel bad for me? You're a confessed asshole! Compared to that, I'm doing fine.

>>93453903
Sure, buddy, sure.

>>93453702
To be fair it probably won't really limit his life at all.
I mean what is he really denied?
>>93453802
The elements all being there doesn't necessarily mean they'll find a solution that plugs them all together. Plus people standing in the way.

>>93453919
>>93453903
>>93453820
Now Now, we're all equally pathetic here.

>>93453874
>Hell of a time to be alive, if you're rich enough to enjoy any of these advances when they are ready.
That's what universal healthcare is for.

Plus, with removing the cost of organ removal operation, preservation, transport, plus the cost of covering for anti-reject medication for the rest of the patient's life, I have the feeling being able to grow organs in lab might end up much cheaper than what organ transplant currently cost.

>>93452286
None of those actually support anything and the finding they have is negligible when compared to similar studies.

>>93453118
I thought that's what I was getting at? I picked those films because they are both momentous prices of art, but are in support of abhorrent ideologies. There's plenty of art I love whose politics rustle my jimmies, and while it is important to see the political message projected, to judge a work based on that message itself is being blind to the merit of the piece of art as a whole.
>The "I have nothing against XXX, but it shouldn't be used as a reason to write a story" is and has always been a BS argument.
"I have nothing against (National socialism/Communism), but it shouldn't be used as a reason to write a story".

Is that a bit clearer?

>>93453922
>The elements all being there doesn't necessarily mean they'll find a solution that plugs them all together.
there wasn't long between the successful heart transplant of a dog and the one of a human.

>>93453874
Not all organs are equal.

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>>93453997
>Universal Healthcare
>>93454023
But it's been 20 years since we started cloning living beings.

>>93454053
but we are barely starting to clone specific organ out of normal cell turned into stem-cell.

>>93453922
>I mean what is he really denied?
Mostly depends how he'll react or how much he avoids dealing with people that make him uncomfortable. It's not really that much different than the types that need a trigger warning on books and movies, or anyone else who is prone to freaking out or shutting down when faced with something that makes him uncomfortable. Sure, being trans isn't as widespread as having a certain skin color, religion or even sexuality, but those are all things we can encounter in different people.

Even if anon exist on some stereotypical farm in the middle of nowhere, he's online. I'm sure we've all talked to a lot of people we'd never meet face to face online. Anon might not should "oh, man, you need brain surgery!" to a trans person if he met one online, but I'm pretty sure he'd feel awkward due to how he was raised making him feel like he was talking to some sort of mentally deranged person. But maybe you're right, maybe in a world where you can talk with people from every corner of the world instantly, it won't limit his life at all.

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>>93454028

>>93454018
My point was that the ideology promoted by a story is as worthy of critic as the quality of the story, but the simple fact that a story has some in itself isn't a valid critic. Whether or not a story carry an ideology does not make it better or worst and people who pretend to dislike something because it carry some while pretending not to disagree with the ideology in the first place are usually hypocrites.

tl;dr if you complain about something having an agenda, you better be complaining about the agenda itself and the value it carry intsetead of complaining that it simply contain some.

>"I have nothing against (National socialism/Communism), but it shouldn't be used as a reason to write a story".

>Is that a bit clearer?
Now, you are less. you seem to have just stated the opposite of what you were saying before.

>>93452654
No it's not Reddit. Rejection of the tissue is the problem. A woman will kill their child if they have had more than one child of the wrong blood type. You don't think that transplanting a major organ like ovaries or a womb won't cause major problems? Cloning organs is decades to the point where they aren't just temporary is decades off. Swapping someone sex is centuries, if not impossible. Half the studies that support this delusion are junk studies that solely exist for funding and that funding is just going to someone's pocket or shit that'll happen. Are you a retard who thinks China actually is doing revolutionary shit? 99% of Chinese studies are propaganda or trash.

You have to make major goddamn strides in immunoblockers and the regulation of the immune system before any of this becomes a reality and with Super bugs it's unlikely you fucking retard. Changing chromosomes is even more retarded because you'd basically just kill and replace. Your body would attack the newly minted wrong chromosomed cells because they wouldn't be self. Stop trying to influence science trannies.

>>93452834
No, it's that you'd be making someone a vegetable and then basically make a new person without any of the memories from the vegetable. Brain cells don't replace themselves and it's total science fiction to think you can change someone's chromosomes without killing them. The immune system would be like the IRA.

>>93453747
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618223
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.abstract
http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
>>93452796
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3219066
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21699661
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19040622
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24275005
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23574768
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24281571
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11564029
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1158136006000491
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024086814364#page-1

>>93454167
hah!

>>93451281
A hundred years from now, they will create a synthetic copy of Gaiman and place him in a virtual hell for his sins against the trans.

Either that or Muslims will be throwing faggots from the ruins of skyscrapers.

I wish the asteroid would hurry the fuck up.

>>93454338
what asteroid? I heard something but didn't really look into it.

>>93454354
The one that wants to be a black hole

>>93454409
oh anon.

>>93454202
>Rejection of the tissue is the problem
See >>93453802
Rejection stop being a problem when the organs are grown from your own genes. If it was the case, genetic therapy would fail.

>Cloning organs is decades to the point where they aren't just temporary is decades off.
We are already doing it, anon.

>Half the studies that support this delusion are junk studies that solely exist for funding and that funding is just going to someone's pocket or shit that'll happen.
Studies on the brain of trans are peer-reviewed, anon.
and just because they dshow results in contradiction with your opinion doesn't mean they are false.

>. Are you a retard who thinks China actually is doing revolutionary shit? 99% of Chinese studies are propaganda or trash.
those studies there >>93452286
aren't from China.

>You have to make major goddamn strides in immunoblockers and the regulation of the immune system before any of this becomes a reality
Not when organs are grown from your own genes.

>Changing chromosomes is even more retarded because you'd basically just kill and replace.
Removing and replacing is what genetic therapy has been doing for years.

>Your body would attack the newly minted wrong chromosomed cells because they wouldn't be self.
People undertaking genetic therapy don't suffer from rejection problem. (genetic therapy REQUIRES that the newly introduced stem-cell get modified)
>Stop trying to influence science trannies.
Maybe learn a little more about it yourself?

>>93453747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE#t=1h23m52s

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YOU STOPPED TALKING ABOUT /co/ RELATED TOPICS HOURS AGO YOU FUCKING FAGGOTS.

GO BACK TO >>>/lgbt/ AND TAKE YOUR PROPAGANDA WITH YOU.

>>93454505
spiderman is a school shooter

>>93454523
Peter Parker had the potential to become one, but as Spider-Man he learned valuable lessons about the importance of human life and from it was able to make friends instead of being an abrasive nerd.

>>93454505
But somebody said something I disagreed with.

>>93454553
I don't care how much he insists he's not a fucking spider. this is ridiculous.

>>93454575
back in my day, he was spider-MAN

>>93451281
>Maybe it was a different time and neil wasn't too sensitive and just wrote it in a way that fit the story regardless of implication?

Neil Gaiman was probably THE most progressive author DC published at the time. The big change is both our understanding, and the political construct of transfaggotry.

>>93451425
>God dictates your gender
I'm sure THAT'S going to fly well.

>>93451517
Fuck no. Quality is orthogonal to how much you agree with the message. There's clearly a reasonable term to describe shit that places is message before any other narrative priority: Propaganda. And right now some of the books are five dollar chick tracts.

>>93454975
>There's clearly a reasonable term to describe shit that places is message before any other narrative priority: Propaganda.
But even then the issue is not that there is a message, but how it is portrayed. So complaining about the message unless you actually disagree with it isn't a valid critic.

>>93454975
>>God dictates your gender
>I'm sure THAT'S going to fly well.
A "don't" was forgotten.

>>93453702
>afraid of trans people
Why do these subjects always boil down to "oh he's just a bigot afraid of PROGRESS" When someone disagrees?

Like, it doesn't make a difference to me if people want to get a sex change and be a different gender. People can do whatever the hell they want. I just happen to disagree with the trans assignment of gender on a biological level.

>>93451757
No. There's observed physiological phenomena with some trans people in the hypothalmus. But that's a HELL of a long way from the crossed brain shit you see pushed at the local p-flag meeting.

More importantly, the direction we're headed is 100 percent self identification. In some areas, that means all the AGP, twinks, and botiuqe genders are already in.

>>93452302
There's SOME evidence of they wrong body hypothesis, but you're recklessly overplaying your hand. First, brains aren't that gendered to begin with, second, there's the framework that this is BDD extended to gender as a competing model, third is that the bar to be diagnosed as trans is so much different than when some of the studies were done that the populations aren't comparable.


>>93451844
I've pissed next to rotocraft and firearms, and really, it's no big deal. Sure there will be bigots who can't share bathrooms with firearms, but society will keep moving on anyways.

>>93452814
How do you know that the body/brain itself isn't simply deficient in some hormonal/chemical balance which causes the dysphoria in the first place? And if you were to correct that then there would be no need to try and alter your body.

Especially at a young age before your body has properly developed? You could be exacerbating the problem by trying to physically adapt a child into the opposite gender when the problem is that they hadn't reached the age when their hormones are fully developed.

>>93453229
Let's compare this to blindness.
If they developed a way to isolate the genetic markers that cause blindness so that these markers can be corrected before birth, would it not be a benefit to mankind to prevent anyone from having to live their lives blind?
This doesn't mean forcing blind people to become sighted(although would any blind person NOT want the gift of sight?)

Would you consider this discrimination against the blind? We accept that being blind is a disability. No one argues that people born unable to see are perfectly normal, healthy individuals with no special needs.

So why is it so heinous to perceive Gender Dysmorphia as a mental disorder? One that if corrected in the womb would be more beneficial than forcing someone to live through hormone therapy and reconstructive surgery, etc?

>>93452995
What the sweet hell are you talking about? BDD is treated with SSRIs, which feels like the second most common drug prescribed to transfags as well.

>>93453313
Alternatively, delusional people die too.

>>93455390
>How do you know that the body/brain itself isn't simply deficient in some hormonal/chemical balance which causes the dysphoria in the first place?
Because no hormonal deficeincy was observed in the first place.
>>93455356
>No. There's observed physiological phenomena with some trans people in the hypothalmus. But that's a HELL of a long way from the crossed brain shit you see pushed at the local p-flag meeting.
see >>93454293
Hormonal therapy and transition Does cause an improvement.
> First, brains aren't that gendered to begin with
It is a gendered organ and is part of the regulation of the hormonal system. As it expect an hormonal feedback from the opposite gender, it get fucked up and that cause depression.

hormonal therapy fix the issue.

>I've pissed next to rotocraft and firearms
You know you are failing to make any point with that analogy, right? there has medical evidence of trans having brain of the opposite gender, that you try to dim,ish them doesn't make them less true.

>>93454293
Anon do you actually read these or just link and paraphrase them so that your political masters give you your gibs.

>>93455628
>30 links produced in less than half an hour
He obviously has them all bookmarked for shitposting/propaganda purposes.

>>93455598
SSRI doens't stop a trans from identifying themsleves as the opposite gender than the one they were born to. so, you are not really making a point.

>>93455742
>>93455742
No him, but nothing fobid that he has read them before collecting them in a save-files
>for shitposting/propaganda purposes.
Remember, kids, when science disagree with you, it's propaganda.

>>93454438
Anon, your a fucking retard. But luckily I have a few bridges to sell you. You can remove and replace, but it's not like removing a wall it's like cutting a hole or painting a wall. We just have started getting deeper into it, but what you believe in is mostly fiction that is sold to get research. Half the trans shit about brain mapping is true about people with mental disorders and can be attributed to how often they self-prescribe medication.

Genetic therapy at the scale you are talking would cause an immune response. You don't know jack and you clearly don't know shit about how universities and research papers work.

>>93452981
Because that's called illness.

>>93455617
So when's the suicide attempt gonna actually work, tranny?

>>93451227
He's literally responded by what he meant here, the guy who did the introduction for the volume that story is in gave him shit for his depiction of trans women and later on gaiman said something about how he agreed with the character that she was getting screwed by the Gods

>>93455298
I object to restructuring of society to deal with a minority medical condition and how it always seems to be targeting the things that social democratic political thought dislikes. It's co-opting legitimate health disorders and using them as a tool.

>>93455790
>damage control
I've seen this shitposting before, with the exact same argumentaion and links. It's almost pasta at this point.

>>93455790
Science has always been propaganda when a political entity is behind it or funds it. You think the LGTB is a human rights group? It's for political power. The Southern Slave masters looked into skull shape to say that Blacks had smaller IQs and were childlike. Fags have discredited people who did studies looking at the correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia and child abuse. Gay Uncle Theory is pure propaganda as well

>>93455792
>Genetic therapy at the scale you are talking would cause an immune response
No it wouldn't. not if the organs are grown from your own stem cell.

>>93455835
I am a cis.

>>93455889
There is zero damage control, there. just facts.
>I've seen this shitposting before, with the exact same argumentaion and links. It's almost pasta at this point.
When the complain keep being the same, the answers keep being the same.

>Science has always been propaganda when a political entity is behind it or funds it.
It's not. it's the whole point of peer-review and reproducible experiments.
> Fags have discredited people who did studies looking at the correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia and child abuse.
Because it has been probved wrong.

>>93456128
>reproducible experiments.

And not a single person who has chopped their dick off has magically turned into a woman, so I'm not sure why people keep trying. Its pretty settled at this point.

You know, I'm probably going to be seen as the ultimate bad guy here, but I think Assigned Male is one of the reasons why people here are becoming less and less tolerant to transexuals.

Or more specifically, self proclaimed transsexuals who refuse to make any attempts to pass or even claim you do not need gender dysphoria. It's becoming increasingly hard to tolerate them when they demand you to treat them well or else. Canada's bullshit law just sealed the deal.

>>93455588
We're in crazy times. See the deaf advocates who call hearing aids genocide.

>>93455390
>How do you know that the body/brain itself isn't simply deficient in some hormonal/chemical balance which causes the dysphoria in the first place?
It varies from place to place, they used to check . More recently, I've seen cases where people with birth defects and obviously fucked up endocrine systems skip straight to the gender transition. We're moving away from that to "informed consent".

But more practically, hormone and chemical imbalances are a tricky thing. We only have crude tools available to us to diagnose and treat this shit in the first place.

Of the population we call transfags, how many of them are cross brained, and how many of them are something else?

There's body integrity disorder/ body dysmorphic disorder, where a person believes that their body is "wrong". Think anorexics, or obsessed bodybuilders, or addicted to cosmetic surgery types.

And there also exists autogynophillia, which is roughly speaking a fetish.

In any case, the objective is for the patient to NOT commit suicide and to have a reasonably functional life. The cross brained crap is as important as whether the person hearing voices in their head is actually talking to jesus or not.

Hormones actually reduce the suicide rate. Unfortunately the suicide rate is still above combat veterans, just for some perspective.

>thread on autosage

Based janitor, you're a pretty cool guy.
While you're at it, put the links in >>93454293 on an auto tempban list to discourage future shitposting.

>>93456164
>And not a single person who has chopped their dick off has magically turned into a woman
But they have showed they have the brain of the opposite gender and that hormonal therapy and transition improve their way of living.

Not to mention, we are not that far from being able from making someone into the opposite gender with normally functioning reproductive organs with the capacity to transmit their genes.>>93453802

>>93456486
Someone asked for proof, he got proof. this isn't shitposting.

>>93455356
>First, brains aren't that gendered to begin with
yes they objectively are. this is hard science.

>>93456550
If it's not /co/ it's shitposting.
Defending trannies has literally nothing to do with /co/ and belongs on /lgbt/.

>>93455804
plenty of transpeople have no problem calling their situation an illness.

>>93456528
"Transitioning" isn't effective, because you can't transition from one sex to the other. The only thing you transition to is being a mutilated freak.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

>>93456585
>comics can't address subjects that aren't self-referential

>>93456674
You haven't actually talked about the comic for several hours so that's not an argument. You're like the shitposters that insisted Pacific Rim was /co/ becuase it got a comic adaption after the movie.

>>93456752
sure it's off topic but that doesn't mean those links could never be on-topic.

>>93456791
You are literally the only one that ever posts them, and you only do it for shitposting/agendapushing purposes. They will never be on topic.

>>93456911
it is literally the first time I've ever posted them

>>93457053
>trying this hard at damage control
If that was true you'd have addressed it here >>93455889

inb4
>b-but i'm totally not that anon i swear!

>>93456486
I fully approve of this move.

>>93456575
Note the qualifier.

There are physiological differences, but normal male and female ranges overlap on many of the indicators in that dump. And even if it's true, there's still connecting the "wrong gendered brain", to dysphoria, and then again to treatment with hormones in a CAUSAL fashion, as opposed to "they stopped committing suicide so much, and feel better".

Someone with a measured normal range male brain with no known physiological issues, who has a massive case of gender dysphoria, and gets relief from that shit with hormones actually does happen.

Also consider the possibility that there are people with "wrong brains" WITHOUT gender dysphoria. Or that there's multiple causes for gender dysphoria, an intersex brain being only one of many.

I mean the alternative is that there's a massive number of intersex people, who have a very specific form of intersex that only affects the brain, with no other physical symptoms. And this specific group is ten to a hundred times larger than all the other intersex people combined.

Given the state of this field, we'll definitely see more changes in our understanding of this during our lifetimes.