>MARVEL LEGACY #1 >JASON AARON (W) • ESAD RIBIC (A) >DOUBLE

MAKE MINE BANKRUPTCY!

>>93363759
>This thing is going to bomb harder can Secret Empire.
It's just a one-shot. Not like it selling poorly would really effect much of anything.

>>93363932
Considering how much they're pushing it right there in that solicit:

>EVERYTHING STARTS HERE!
>Jason Aaron and Esad Ribic usher in a new dawn
>one whose rays will touch every corner of the Marvel Universe in the days to come
>It’s everything you’ve been longing for — and more!

It selling poorly would not fare well for the rest of Marvel's line spinning out of this. This is setting the stage both for their Generations event and a number of relaunches.

Imagine if DC Universe Rebirth had sold like shit, all the Rebirth one-shots and new #1's would not have sold nearly as well despite DCU Rebirth being "just a one-shot".

>>93363759
>the dramatic return you’ve been waiting for — and one you’ve been dreading!
Thoughts on who the two might be?

I'm thinking FF as the awaited return, and then Cyclops as the 'dreaded', because they'll bring him back as a full villain.

>>93364124
The awaited return will be either Thor, Cap or Tony, I think. Remember, all of them are technically "gone" right now, with Thor not being worthy, Cap being HydraCap and Tony being like dead or something.

It could be the FF but I'm not holding out for that because the general theme of this whole thing seems to be talking about change without actually changing anything.

>>93363759
Wolverine.


TYE BEYONDER.

>>93363759
Based

>>93363759
Making it $5.99 is a mistake. They should have made it $2.99 like DC Universe: Rebirth, if they want it to be a big seller.

>>93363759
Looks interesting.

Neither return will be a genuinely anticipated or dreaded return.

This is Marvel.

>>93363759
>CAVEVENGERS CAVEVENGERS CAVEVENGERS CAVEVENGERS
This is gonna become the new copypasta meme, isn't it?

>>93363759
>This thing is going to bomb harder can Secret Empire.
Secret Empire isn't bombing. All three issues that were out in May are in the top ten in terms of sales.
>http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-05.html
I mean, it's still shit, but it's shit that is selling.

>>93364124
They're going to try and bring back Cyclops as a villain but botch the job like they always do and the readers will all still be on his side.

>>93363759
Its going to be a masterpiece like secret empire. Stay salty image fan.

>>93364460
Yeah cant wait.

>>93364487
Secret Empire #1 (157,517) dropped in sales from Secret Empire #0 (162,718). Sales generally massively increases in between those two, such as with Civil War #0 (177,283) to Civil War #1 (381,737). Secret Empire #2 (100,983) is already selling lower than the last issue of Civil War II #8 (105,658).

Keep in mind that Civil War II was considered a sales disappointment. Not only is Secret Empire selling basically 1/3rd of Civil War II, it's also been extended to 10 issues instead of 8.

Secret Empire is bombing hard and it's taking Marvel along for the ride. And Legacy doesn't look like it'll turn things around. If anything, it'll likely make it worse.

>>93364677
That's not a "bomb". It's a disappointment given how events are expected to blow the sales of everything else out of the water and bring in thousands of new readers, but it's still making a lot of money relative to other books.

Being a bomb implies it LOSES money.

>>93364124
rich the rat said marvel has confirmed it's not gonna be the fantastic four.

>>93364474
Maybe they shouldn't have made their lead book of their relaunch shitty CAVENGERS!!!!

>No Star Wars crossover
>No Miracleman crossover
>No Kingdom Hearts crossover
>No original Fantastic Four return
>No OMD being undone
>$6
Such a dispointment....

>>93364677
Not selling as much as they hoped is not the same thing as it being a bomb.

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>>93364677
>Secret Empire #1 (157,517) dropped in sales from Secret Empire #0 (162,718).

That's probably because Secret Empire #0 was included with Funko's Marvel Collector Corps box so the sales on it were higher than usual (this happened with other comics included in that subscription box).

The hilarity is because they chose #0 (they couldn't use #1 because the box needed to be out sooner) the sales ended up making it look like #1 had a drop in sales.

>>93364898
Not selling as much as hoped by a massive amount is the definition of a bomb.

>>93364952
You are fucking stupid.

>In the motion picture industry, a "box office bomb" or "box office flop" is a film that is considered highly unsuccessful or unprofitable during its theatrical run, often following significant hype regarding its cost, production, or marketing efforts. Generally, any film for which the production and marketing costs exceed the combined revenue recovered after release is considered to have "bombed".

>>93364898
>>93364775
It's not a sales bomb (at this time, at least), but it's not a good thing in the same way Amazing Spider-Man 2's box office was not a good thing.

>>93364452
Exactly and I don't think Marvel realizes how bothered people are about the amount of pages we're getting for six bucks.

People at my shop, some of them are pretty big Marvel fans, are livid about this.

>>93363759
Not seeing what the big deal is. Not great, not terrible. $6 for 64 pages isn't completely unreasonable either

I swear some of you faggots are paid to make these kinds of threads. But no, sadly the latest hottest way to fit in around here is to shit on Marvel regardless of what they do just to fit in. Also, autistic company war mentality thanks to /v/.

inb4 shill

>>93364997
>>93365010
Two years go Secret Wars #1 sold 527,678. Thats basically four times the sales of Secret Empire, which itself is selling almost a third of the very disappointing sales of Civil War II. It's been beat in sales by a Batman/Flash crossover, a regular Superman issue and now a regular Batman issue. On top of all the negative press it's gotten. Anyone that says a 75% and 60% drop in sales from previous events followed by fan and retailer outcry to change things isn't a bomb is delusional.

Also

>movie analogy

LOL I see who I'm talking to now.

>>>/tv/
>>>/reddit/

It's introducing Miracleman

>>93365058
I'm surprised anyone expected anything different when issues of CW2 and SE have all been $4.99 for 30-48 pages.

>>93365171
Now you're just being retarded on purpose.

>>93364775
>Being a bomb implies it LOSES money.
You know Marvel uses the revenue from these events to finance themselves for the rest of the year, right? So yes, they're losing a ton of money.

>>93365121
This is suppose to be Marvel's "Rebirth".

And instead it's just a shitty 'what if' that Axel found lying around and decided to lie and say it was bigger than Jesus and selling it at $6.

>>93365284
But then they might not be able to afford writing talent like Margaret Stohl, Rainbow Rowell, and Kate Leth or artists like Eisner Award Winner Erica Henderson!

>>93365121
Go away, Brevoort

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>>93363759
It's so bad that some comic book shops are giving Legacy away for free to subscribers and cutting the price for shelfs just so Marvel fans don't run away.

This comic shop owner is doing more for the fans and the industry than Marvel Comics is doing. He actually cares about comics and cares even more about his customers.

Marvel Comics hate their fans more than the holocaust and will do anything to swindle them for shekels. They do not care about comics.

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>>93365538

>>93365538
>I'm gonna sell Marvel at a loss, maybe that'll teach them
ohshitniggerwhatareyoudoing.tiff

>>93365654
No one wants to pay Six Dollars for a shitty Cavengers elseworld just for a shitty spoiler at the end. It's not even 82 pgs.

This is the only way to get people to buy the book.

>>93365654
His option is either sell at full price to his dwindling Marvel readerbase and watch them leave enmasse or sell at a loss to get comics to his customers in the hopes that most of them stick around and continue to buy some or any other Marvel. It's not hard to understand.

>>93365704
Well maybe he shouldn't get people to buy the book then? Maybe he should get people to buy books that are actually decent? As long as retailers act like battered housewives giving their abusive drunk of a husbant one "last" chance after another, Marvel will never change their tactics.

>>93365783
>Well maybe if retailers ignore a publisher who accounts for 40% of their business they'll do better.

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This is bad. Speaking as a person that survived the crossing, heroes reborn and the clone saga, it's fucking NIGHT, dark as it's ever been. Any character they are bringing back in the hands of Aaron makes me shudder. Imagine this fucking goof introducing Miracleman.? At least with Ribic it will look good.

>>93363759
>>93365538
>>93365882
>>93365825
I'm honestly starting to think that Marvel Comics is trying to crash the comic industry (again). That it's some plan by Ike to destroy tge industry knowing Disney will bail Marvel Comics out no matter what.

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>>93363759
What is marvel doing?

I'd just like to say that the one simpleton that's trying to make the name Cavengers stick is deluded. It doesn't sound good or read well and has to be one of the saddest things I've ever seen on /co/.

>>93366818
Umad, Aaron?
Maybe you should have come up with a better concept than Cavengers, bitch.

>>93366846
>implying writers are the ones coming up with ideas in Marvel nowadays

>>93363759
Jason Aaron is a total loser, never wrote one comic worth picking up. Shame, I was kind of optimistic about this when it was announced.

>>93363932
>Not like it selling poorly would really effect much of anything.
Especially since it costs so much
Wouldn't be surprised if it made more money than the Rebirth oneshot desu

>>93366890
They are. Bendis came up with Miles and Reeree. Slott came up with JackalBen. Aaron came up with War Thor. And so on and so on.

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>>93366931
Jason Aaron has written some good stuff. At DC. Like most writers.

>>93366846
I'm not Aaron - who is, by the way, a bad enough writer to think cavengers is clever. Maybe not, tho' - it is fucking moronic after all. Proof of declining education standards I suppose.

>>93363759
>All leading up to the dramatic return you’ve been waiting for — and one you’ve been dreading!
>The one you've been dreading!
Oh god...they're bringing back Ron Perelman!

>>93366955
>Wouldn't be surprised if it made more money than the Rebirth oneshot
It's $5.99 for 64 pages and 8 variants. Of course it's going to make more than the Rebirth special. Which was $2.99 for 80 pages and no variants.

There's just no way in hell Legacy will do for the entire line what the Rebirth special did for DC's. The only thing it's going to do is sow even more bitterness from the readers and retailers.

>>93366996
Pretty much all writers' creator owned is better than their capeshit

>>93367063
Does that mean if Bendis went creator owned he'd actually write good books again? Or is he the exception that proves the rule?

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>>93367083
Bendis has creater-owned titles.

>>93367136
Oh yeah, I forgot about Powers.

>>93366990
>they are coming up with characters
>Spider-Man, Iron-Man, Jackal, Thor
>Plantain flavored Nigglet, Deep Dish Chicago Niggress, Clone wars 2, Cancer whore Thor/ PTSD Volstagg with Ultimate Thor hammer

That's some exciting new IP right there

>>93367083
Do you like Bendis or are you asking /co/'s opinion on whether or not you should like him?

>>93367063
I don't know man, Grant Morrison's creater owned is not nearly as strong as his cape work. Hickman has great creator owned stuff but he spend most of his time doing FF/Ultimate Universe/Avengers that seems way stronger to me. It depends on taste

>>93367277
I think he's saying that he's a lapsed Bendis fan, and would like to return to the days where Bendis wasn't shit.

>>93367589
It's kind of strange, that dude for all his problems dragged the avengers back to relevancy. He just should never have been allowed to stay on the title for 10 years. His creator owned work is rancid lately. Scarlet and United States of Murder Inc. were toilet worthy

>>93367277
>>93367589
I liked his Daredevil run. Not so much anything after that. He's got his head shoved too far up his own ass. Maybe Defenders will be good, but I read most of the first issue and don't have high hopes. Wasting a page long panel on Matt hearing something that doesn't even fucking matter? No. Wasting two pages on everyone arguing with Luke about Diamondback being alive? NO.

>>93367688
Wasting pages is a thing that's going to happen. Wait until the breakfast issue comes out. There's not a lot of checks and balances on him, he was the best selling writer for about 8 years straight during a time when they clawed back to market share dominance. He's got the pull to spit out whatever garbage he wants.

>>93364068
But here's the thing, sales are determined by the pre-orders. In the case of, say, Secret Empire, poor sales means that books that are tie-ing into it will have poor sales and poor initial sales mean the remaining issues will also sell poorly.

If this sells poorly then Marvel will have still gotten their money from the pre-orders so it won't affect Marvel one way or the other.

>>93367063
Not all, just most. I'd say Morrison and Ewing are two writers who are at their best when they're doing cape comics. Hell, throw Robinson into that list too. Generally, writers who make great use of continuity to enhance their comics are better in capes since there's so much continuity to work with whereas you're starting from square one for the most part on creator owned books.

Writers who generally go "fuck continuity" and do whatever the hell they want anyways work better in creator owned books because there, the continuity is what they make it and therefore there's nothing getting in their way to tell the exact story they want to tell.

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>>93367672
His Avengers was horrible and one of the worst things to happen to comics.

Bendis is the kind of guy who took Watchmen completely at face-value and thus took the wrong message from it. He's the symbol of deconstructive comics in the modern day, the anti-Waid/Busiek. Which isn't necessarily inherently bad, see Warren Ellis, but Ellis works with capes mostly in universes that are built around being deconstructive like Wildstorm and when he does Marvel/DC work he doesn't do shit that's completely counter to the point of Marvel/DC.

Bendis works almost exclusively in Marvel and popularized edgy murderporn hero-vs-hero crap for like ten years. It's the epitome of stuff that's clearly embarrassed to be about superheroes.

I haven't read any of his creator-owned work, but I'd imagine it's a lot better. He's not a bad writer, or at least he wasn't before he became a lazy fuck, but his shit was so destructive and joyless. I can forgive the stuff with pet characters and the annoying dialogue because every writer has quirks, but the way he arbitrarily hates certain characters and decides to kill them or make them shit just so other people can't use them? Fuck that.

>>93368257
>but the way he arbitrarily hates certain characters and decides to kill them or make them shit just so other people can't use them? Fuck that.
It would be hilarious if a writer was also writing someone he hated and completely ignored everything Bendis was writing. Ya know, like how he ignores everything everyone else (sometimes including his own damn self) writes?

>>93364502
To the readers defense they botched Cyclops "being a villain" so much, that by the time they got right and make him into full blown villain the readers will probably feel justified and side with him.

>>93368257
As a person who had zero interest in the avengers before he took over I disagree. I'm not checking for the book with Jack of hearts and triathlon. Putting him on the avengers was a hot take back then. He should have just let it go after secret invasion. I'm not even saying his work was super high quality, maybe I'm biased because it happened when I was in my late teens and it felt like something an 18 year old would enjoy, and it was.

>>93364838
>actually wanting any og those things outside of F4
Retard

>>93363759
>Child's prayer.

Peter and Mary Jane's daughter, alive and well wishing to be with her parents.

Finding her will trigger their real memories.

>>93368460
>He should have just let it go after secret invasion.

I think Dark Reign was mostly better. But he definitely should've left the book after Siege. Post-Siege Avengers was sub-mediocre at best, and outright fucking abysmal at worse (Age of Ultron in particular)

>>93364838
Miracleman being brought into the Marvel Universe seems like a terrible idea.

>>93368460
>zero interest before Bendis wrote them
>My 18 year old self

Essentially you were too young to read the actual good Avengers runs, grew up when they were at their lowest, and when someone took them and wrote stories that were passable you were hooked.

If you haven't already, you have many books to read - The good news is that they are mostly better and more interesting than the shit Bendis wrote. Get to it anon, you own it to your 18 year old self. Teach that kid a lesson.

>>93368257
>ut the way he arbitrarily hates certain characters and decides to kill them or make them shit just so other people can't use them?
It gives me great joy that all the Avengers he killed of or shat on in Disassembled (Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Vision) are now part of MCU and therefore a normie's favorites.

I don't hate the idea of flashing back to the original version of legacy heroes like Iron Fist, Black Panther, Spirit of vengrance etc. but the fact they all knew each other and interacted at one time is pretty retarded.

Hope we at least get some cool designs out of it

>>93368519
The only reason Dark Reign was any good was Norman Osborn - Which was essentially the Thunderbolts ran flanderized by Bendis who was still awesome and believable because he was fucking nuts on that run anyway.

He literally did what he always did with the other characters and the story was stretched thin - Like it always is with Bendis.

>>93368257
>Bendis is the kind of guy who took Watchmen completely at face-value and thus took the wrong message from it.

Completely wrong. Bendis is the kind of guy who read a lot of Mamet and has been writing superhero versions of Glengarry Glen Ross for most of his career.

>>93368584
That is pretty funny.

>>93368498
>Wanting any of those things including the FF
>Retard

You do know how that company works right? A FF relaunch would almost certainly go to Bendis. Are you ready for Reed to literally be Cucked non stop by Namor ? that is his high concept. Probably he'll have Luke Cage fuck her this time. He'll have Reed saying things like "You've all been raping science" and Ben being extra extra jewey (tuccus, tuccus oy oy vey) in no time
Pro tip: all of those things he's already literally written (except for the Luke cage thing but cmon, it's inevitable)

>>93368668
But we can hope that it will go to Ewing

>>93368568
You know that comics were intended for kids right? The Marvel Knights initiative worked because it recognized the kids that were reading comics were/already had grown/growing up. Through the magic of Internet piracy I've read lots of comics, and almost every issue of the avengers before disassembled was disgustingly bad even for children

>>93368730
Amen

>>93368660
What's even funnier is that, out of the more popular 00s writers:
>Brubaker's Winter Soldier got adapted
>Ellis' Extremis was used, even if not faithfully
>Millar's Civil War was the base for a movie, and they used his Black Fury
>DnA's Guardians of the Galaxy became the movie team
>Pak's Planet Hulk is getting a part of Ragnarok for itself
And the biggest contributions Bendis made to the movies were: the character of Maria Hill (who isn't really anything like the comic book version), the idea on an Avengers Tower and the title "Age of Ultron".

>>93367672
The "Bendis made Avengers an A-List IP" story is false, Busiek's Avengers did pretty well and never fell outside of the Top 15.

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>>93368730
Some people on /co/ really like Ewing. But the simple fact is that every single one of Ewing's books sell like shit and Ewing himself is not a draw. Nobody's going to give Ewing anything big unless Marvel continues to bleed talent and he somehow makes it to the top because everyone above him is gone.

>>93365405
So typical Marvel hyperbole? Yeah, not seeing why this is cause for outrage. I guess I am just too tired to be angry at Marvel for making stupid decision and just don't care as much. Better to TRY to keep an open mind and finding something else to do something else besides get mad at comic books.

I mean who knows, maybe this might lead to a least a hand full of decent titles? Probably not but I am not allowing Marvel to piss me off anymore

>>93368816
Bendis was the uncredited writer of the after credit schwarma scence in Avengers. He was made to write that part

>>93368858
>Heroes doing nothing but eating fast food
>Bendis wrote it
I genuinely believe you.

>>93368825
Were you alive for this or is it expert googling? I don't really care how it sells it doesn't pass the eye test. Busiek's Avengers runs were heinous. I don't want to be In a position to defend Bendis man, he's not very good, he wrote a polarizing Avengers the went on way way too long. But people actually cared what was going on. I read the "Avengers" by waid last week and almost threw up, it's less recognizable a title as Bendis' initial new avengers run

>>93368460
>maybe I'm biased because it happened when I was in my late teens and it felt like something an 18 year old would enjoy, and it was.
I think that's precisely it. I was the same way and as a youth couldn't get enough of all the edgy comics and crossover events. But that was also when I thought Superman was lame, that Batman didn't belong in the DCU, and that Watchmen was the first superhero comic worth reading.

As I got older and gained an appreciation for the history of comics and what superheroes are about as a genre, and especially what Watchmen was actually supposed to represent, I resented Bendis more and more, and it's in retrospect that I really hate the whole 00's decade.

I guess I can't say that stuff is just inherently bad, because obviously it has its audience, but it's not the kind of thing I want to read, so it's good for me that the industry started going in the opposite direction around the same time I started to hate the direction it was going in.

>>93368584
That's why I dislike old Bendis but actively hate new Bendis. He's a fucking hypocrite that suddenly started liking the less-serious more humorous direction as soon as the movies got big. Not saying he's doing it as a cash-in, I think he genuinely enjoys them, but clearly doesn't give a shit about any of the comics those movies draw inspiration from and only gave the style a chance when they were condensed into two-hour bites he can easily enjoy.

>>93368626
I don't know what his specific influences are or thoughts on Watchmen, just that that's the kind of mindset his mirrors.

>>93368828
He has potential to be a big name. His stuff doesn't sell because it's very continuity-heavy and targeted at the most hardcore of fans, but if he were put on Avengers and toned down the continuity a bit his storytelling is strong enough on its own.

>>93368963
>Were you alive for this
Anon, Busiek's Avengers came out in the late 90s. I would hope that you were alive for this as well otherwise I'm not sure you're old enough to be on this site.

>>93368858
>>93368896
That and I think the Iron Man epilogue with Fury's appearance.

>>93368971
>and toned down the continuity a bit
That's very much a "but at what cost?" scenario. The things I love about Ewing, namely his use and respect for d and c-listers as well as his masterful use of both vertical and horizontal continuity, would have to be the first things to go to make him work for the more general audiences.

I'd rather get a bunch of great 12 issue runs about characters and topics that no other writer has any interest in touching than a 50 issue run about A-listers galore.

>>93368963
Busiek's Avengers, whatever its flaws is still far more competently written on a craft level than probably 90% of Avengers comics that came after he left.

>>93368825
Nobody's saying that pre-Disassembled Avengers was in the toilet, but Bendis is who made it the centerpiece of the Marvel Universe again.

Go look at 2004's sales, Avengers sales literally doubled starting with Disassembled, and it's not just because of the numbering because it stayed over 100k for the remainder of the run.

>>93369041
It's 2017. There are people who were born in 1999 on this site right now.

>>93369120
I'm not saying that's what I WANT from Ewing, because I'd be perfectly happy for him to remain catering specifically to my niche. I just think he easily has the potential to be a big name.

I mean, look at people like Morrison, who did really bizarre niche titles like Animal Man and Doom Patrol, who was of course a fan and critical darling and whose biggest claim to mainstream fame was a Batman one-shot that got unexpectedly popular. Then this maniac gets put on the Justice League of America and successfully revamps it into a mainstream hit.

JLA managed to appeal to the mainstream while still being wholly Morrison, I think Ewing could definitely do that if he took a shot at the main Avengers book.

>>93368505
The higher ups are too autistic about Spidey to do that.

They have very very very strict guidelines about how they want Spider-Man. And they want a Spider-Man who is single and a manchild.

>>93369041
I remember them very well unfortunately. A lot of Triathalon, alcoholic Carol Danvers, Vance Astro. This was as bad as the Geoff johns run and maybe slightly better than that strange pre Bendis captain Britain in the avengers storyline. I think it was fucking Chuck Austen. And before these turds you had heroes reborn.

>>93368520
Would still be more interesting than Cavengers.

>>93369163
This
If anything, the numbers may be cooked in favor of the Busiek run, it was a new #1 relaunch and coming off a once in a lifetime bad outsourcing run

>>93369163
Here's the secret of why it sold so much:
Wolverine
Spider-Man

>>93369411
My money is on Miracle Man, if only for the fact that DC and Marvel events are usually eerily similar a la convergence/Secret Wars, Batman/Captain America die but really go back in time etc etc. This makes sense in terms of going toe to toe with rebirth.

>>93369204
T-that's not possible!

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>>93369383
>disliking Busiek's run
>disliking Red Zone

>>93369531
>My money is on Miracle Man
It's going to be fucking Wolverine.

>>93369611
Miracle Man sounds more dreadful and it would be similar to Watchmen / DC crossover

>>93369611
Will they pull a Marville?

>>93369511
Of course, if the concept of the "Avengers" should be biggest heroes facing biggest threats, cornerstone book, that's the Lineup that should be out there. The problem comes with 30 years of jobbers as the Avengers and older fans screaming not muh vengers.

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>>93368963
Busiek's Avengers really did remain in the top 15 to right near the end of his run (they fell out of the top 10 because they couldn't get a regular artist after Perez left).

For some reason though Marvel's new management treated it like a failing book that was on its way out, and considered Millar's Ultimates to be the "real" Avengers. I think it was the old-fashioned writing style that bugged them. When Busiek started writing Avengers in 1998 almost every Marvel book was written like that - tons of captions and thought bubbles and continuity references. The new management modernized the writing style using writers like Bendis and Millar.

So what Bendis did was to make an Avengers that split the difference between the old-fashioned style and the Ultimates style, and that was something Marvel could get behind and promote more as the center of its universe.

>>93369611
>It's going to be fucking Wolverine.

They have like 3 Wolverines now. Old man Logan, Laura and Ultimate Wolverine's son is back too.

>>93369467
What the fuck is this line of thinking? If a relaunch is enough to cook the numbers in Busiek's favor, Bendis had to add Wolverine and Spider-Man, constant event tie-ins and the editorial crippling the X-Men to make his Avengers the top Marvel title.

>>93369644
The thing is, Avengers didn't deserve A-listers, and two, after snitkbub and Pete left the team, the sales were in the gutter. Peter returned, but Avengers sell like shit, ie. like pre-Bendis

>>93369467
>If anything, the numbers may be cooked in favor of the Busiek run,

I doubt it. The Heroes Return Avengers debuted the same time as the Heroes Return Iron Man, Captain America, and FF.

Avengers managed to stay in the Top 15 for years while the other three were in the lower part of the top 20-25.

Part of this wasn't just because Busiek was writing but also because George Perez was drawing.

And if you want to talk about cooked in favor of something, didn't Bendis' run have a lot of variants added to it?

>>93369632
If the cast of Marville saves the Marvel Universe, I will buy ten copies.

>>93369611
I mean it makes sense with Jason Aaron, maybe it'll be Wolverine and cyclops both. But it seems like a perfect coincidence with DC dragging out Dr. Manhattan

>>93369682
>>93369652
I'm looking at Comichron; while Perez was on the book it remained in the top 10; after he left (and also at the time Quesada took over and started pushing more stuff like the Ultimate line and Origin and all that) Avengers fell of the Top 10 but remained in the Top 15.

File: Avengers second lineup.jpg (2MB, 1988x2416px) Image search: [Google]

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>>93369644
Partly it comes down to whether you think the Avengers should be more like the first lineup (a collection of Marvel stars) or the second lineup (one star plus a bunch of nobodies).

I feel like the Avengers are more interesting as a team with its own stock members and its own history, it's one reason I couldn't get into Hickman's run - he ignored almost all the history of the team, much more than Bendis did. It was just a big group of people. I'd rather see an underpowered Avengers team with a history.

Even though Bendis and Millar originally pitched adding Spidey and Wolverine as part of making the Avengers a true all-star team, the version Bendis would up writing was actually a more traditional lineup - a few stars and some B and C listers who carried more of the characterization.

>>93364124
Bendis handling FF

>>93369682
I don't know man, I like my Avengers written by Hickman fearing 100% more pie graphs, Venn diagrams and New Mutants.

>>93369845
It's already established in this thread that your taste sucks

>>93369531
It'll be Tony Stark.

>>93365538
Hey! I shop at Comic Conspiracy as well.

Sucks that their changing location. Their current area is just comfy as hell.

>>93369531
The contract they signed with Gaiman forbids them from using Miracleman until Gaiman has finished his run. Since Gaiman is dragging his feet on that like he did with Sandman: Overture and half of the other projects that Gaiman has taken on in the last decade, him being integrated into 616 isn't going to happen anytime soon.

It will happen eventually, of course, but not anytime soon.

>>93369935
I think he was sarcastic.

>>93363759
They've gotta make it look like they're doing fine in the charts somehow.

>>93369804
Tom Brevoort had Wolverine/Spider-Man forced on him for Avengers and bringing back Bucky forced on him for Captain America around the same time, but my impression is he managed to steer those books in a slightly more traditional direction after that (and also got to bring Thunderbolts back in its traditional form).

>>93369684
Have a bag of money, anon

>>93365595
Jesus fucking christ.

Even on the private retailer forums whose sole purpose for existing is for LCS owners to talk to Marvel they're just sticking their fingers in their ears.

This how you know they haven't actually learnt anything. All they took from Rebirth's success was the superficial. >>93365538 the fact that they don't get WHY they should be selling Legacy as cheap as possible is insane. They'd rather have a quick profit that looks good on the charts for one month than actually try and use it as a launching point to make them healthy long term.

I wouldn't take Legacy even if my LCS guy gave it to me for free. I'd rather spend my money on the Metal spin-off series that DC are launching and whose price will be $2.99 on-going. Because DC actually WANT their series to do well long term.

>>93367061
Also Legacy will have ads, Rebirth had none.

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>>93369658
Casuals don't care about that. Announcing WOLVERINE HAS RETURNED gets casuals in the store the same way saying WOLVERINE HAS DIED got them in the store.

>>93369804
Very well said.

Avengers actually kind of started the same way JSA did in that it was Marvel's heroes that didn't have their own book (plus Hulk who was cancelled) which was why FF and Spider-Man weren't on it and the X-Men and Daredevil didn't get added. Which gave it kind of a ragtag appeal that separated it from JLA who all had their own titles except Martian Manhunter and I think Aquaman didn't at that time.

Obviously today we look at Thor and Iron Man as A-listers but at the time they were just characters that headlined anthologies. I think that was the reason they ditched everyone except Cap and put these relative unknowns in, it kept that ragtag feeling instead of Marvel's superstars.

And funnily enough DC copied this approach in the 80's with JLI all being characters no one else was using.

I'd like to see Avengers return to that model of using fan-favorite characters that no longer have their own books, but I guess that's part of what made the sales slip in the first place and the reason for all the spinoffs.

Ironically, I think part of what made the Avengers movie such a success was that people DIDN'T really know who most of the characters were except Iron Man and Hulk, at best being aware of their names. Unlike Superman and Batman people don't have much expectation for how these characters are supposed to act which brings back that ragtag appeal.

>>93370757
>Casuals don't care about that. Announcing WOLVERINE HAS RETURNED gets casuals in the store the same way saying WOLVERINE HAS DIED got them in the store.

Not exactly. Death issues get a lot of attention but Return issues get very overlooked. Cap's return didn't get as much attention from outside comics as his death for instance.

>>93368257
Bendis is a video gamer who tried to make comics "less lame." It's so simple when you look at his work that way.

>>93370549
I think that up to this point Marvel hasn't gotten in a situation like the one it's in now which is why you hear a lot of retailers complaining more and more.

What I find interesting is the "heavily moderated" part, isn't that also like CBR, too?

File: Bendis writes Doctor Doom.png (801KB, 819x468px) Image search: [Google]

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>>93370833
I think Bendis is someone who likes Marvel superheroes but doesn't like the fanboy culture that grew up around them and tries to distance himself from it.

Caring about continuity or consistent characterization would make him one of those old-fashioned fanboy writers.

So even though he knows that every other writer has portrayed Hawkeye as anti-killing (and if he doesn't Brevoort does), explaining why Hawkeye suddenly wants to kill would be old-fashioned and uncool. Same with his inability to write unironic villain dialogue. It's old-school so he can't bring himself to do it.

It's kind of an attitude that is bound up with late-period Wizard magazine, which canonized him as the hottest thing in comics.

don't get whatever hope you have left get to high,
they're just gonna bring back the sentry and act like somebody cared

>>93369511
This. Those two characters are why the Avengers became the top selling series for like a decade. It allowed Bendis absolute free range.

I mean, why would Spider-Man ever want to be around Wolverine? A character who is against killing to the guy who'd stab you if you look at him wrong.

>>93371095
Bendis is more simple than that. He's the type of guy who thinks physical brawlers are the best heroes. Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Vision, etc were all deemed lame by him. His Heroic Age New Avengers was main entirely of physical fighters outside Dr. Strange.

He's like a producer. "Hawkeye is lame because he shoots arrows. Who shoots arrows anymore? Wait, he's well liked? Bring him back but make him a ninja! Ninjas are cool"

He's so predictable.

>>93363759
all those variants and the price really show how Legacy is really only a surface level cash in on what DC Rebirth was doing.

>>93371110
>legacy puts all these characters on their promo
>cover shows characters like the Hulk, Captain America, Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc
>actual story takes play a million years ago with different characters

>>93369383
And yet I'd still take Busiek and Johns' runs over Austen's, Bendis', Hickman's, and Waid's.