Is it wrong that I liked Azzarello's portrayal of the Amazons?

>>93098342
Yes and you're a faggot for liking it.

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>>93098342
Meh, didn't care much about that. I was in it for the art and occasional fanservice. Fucking loved this armor design when it popped up. Shame it doesn't stick.

I thought it fit traditional greek fable well, which was the atmosphere of his run, so it was perfect for what it needed to be.

>>93098636
Yeah, there a reason why the Amazons are feared.

>>93098636
>>93098791
Have you actually read about myth amazons ever or

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It's perfectly serviceable for temporary alternate WW tales. Problem is it's just not conductive for following stories that want us to root for them.

The siren raids would have been fine if they hadn't killed them if instead they used magic to wipe their memories.

But as it is I had a idea of having a Solomon Grundy type unstoppable zombie modeled like a classic ship captain stalking the island killing the Amazons that took part in the raids & would 100% be on his side.

>>93098342
>Is it wrong that I liked Azzarello's portrayal of the Amazons?
Yes it is. Kill yourself.

>it adds some negative side to the Amazon's supposedly peaceful, perfect society.
Because apparently, being paranoid isolationists wasn't enough. Fuck right off with this "Amazons are perfect" bullshit. They have been highly distrustful of outsiders since day one, and it's been a source of drama throughout the franchise. But it seems that's not edgy enough for retards like you.

>>93098342
>Is it wrong that I liked Azzarello's portrayal of the Amazons?
No it was excellent

>>93098342
>>93098636
>>93098791
>>93099329
Faggots.

>>93099188
My man.

>>93098791
The amazons were myth, however, some steppe women were called Amazons as an insult. Amazon society to Greeks was a shitty society were people just fucked and shit in the streets and little boys raped/ were raped by women. Also that lesbo poet was just some slut, like a literal cum dump who was famous because she was the town bicycle for anyone with money

>>93099366

Hello, Cucka.

>>93099188
>being paranoid isolationists wasn't enough
But there was nothing morally fucking wrong with that.

>>93100201
Greeks were just a buncha boy diddling faggots anyway.

>>93100299
... And? Is there a rule that says fictional societies have to be in the moral wrong about something?

>>93099188
>Because apparently, being paranoid isolationists wasn't enough.

It really wasn't. What actual issues do the amazons have? Besides the distrust, there is literally nothing that makes amazon society anything other than perfect. They don't have any crimes whatsoever or any of the other shit loads of problems our societies have.

>>93100997
>They don't have any crimes whatsoever or any of the other shit loads of problems our societies have.
Ah, there it is. The very instant you know when someone is an ignorant casual.

>>93101076
Ah, there it is. The very instant you know someone is an snobbish jackass.

>>93100997
That was always the point. WW is literally hyper feminist, matriarchal domination propaganda. Marston wasn't even secretive about his mission statement.

>Kryptonians werr perfectly fine society with no flaws outside of abusing their planets resources depending on the canon
>nobody cares
>Amazonia ms were a perfectly fine society who were distrustful of others and isolated
>FUCK MAN, GOD DAMN PERFECT WOMEN, ADD SOME RAPE AND MURDER

>>93101113
>expecting a basic familiarity with the subject of discussion is "snobbish"
You can't talk shit if you don't know what you're talking about, you fuckin' idiot. Get the fuck outta here and read a book.

>>93101217
>Kryptonians werr perfectly fine society with no flaws outside of abusing their planets resources depending on the canon
That's a pretty big flaw, what with it literally causing their planet to blow up

>>93101217
Thing is Krypton got blown the fuck up so no one had a reason to care. Every time Themyscira is mentioned or appears it's a paradise with no problems whatsoever and nothing interesting ever happens with it, besides the gods doing some weird shit that makes Wonder Woman have to intervene.

>>93101217
>>Kryptonians werr perfectly fine society with no flaws outside of abusing their planets resources depending on the canon
Wasn't Kryptonian society inherently flawed from the beginning? What with them ignoring Jor'El's warnings?

>>93101217
Double standards are a hell of a drug, yo.

>>93101359
>Every time Themyscira is mentioned or appears it's a paradise with no problems whatsoever
The more you talk, the more obvious it is that you've never read WW comics. You really should just stop before you make yourself look even stupider.

>>93098342
It's shitty, sorry. I get you like your femdoming amazons, but fuck you, it's stupid and it makes diana an evil cunt, an incompetent idiot, or both.

>>93101463
She is both anon.

>>93100869
No, but that makes them boring and cheap.

>>93101463
Well she believed she was a clay baby for most of her life. Naivete was kind of the point of her character arc.

>>93101676
>fictional societies are boring unless they're evil
I see. And when did you first come to believe this? Perhaps it stems from a projection of your disillusionment with the world in the turbulent times we live in? Or perhaps more likely you're just a bit touched in the head?

>>93101826
I didn't say that, you retard. I meant that societies with no problems are boring.

>>93098846
he didnt say the amazon myth specifically.

They're more like sirens in this case.

>>93101751
When she finds (she's already a bit naive for never finding out what happens on her island, but whatever) out these are the routes:
Diana imprisons the amazons for their crimes, freeing the maleamazons who inherit themiscyra
Diana tries to form a truce, which leads to the amazons killing the maleamazons when Diana isn't watching which makes diana an incompetent idiot who's responsible for civilian deaths
Diana tolerates to a degree, which makes her a villain, so Supes and Bats and the rest of the JL put her down

But really, as soon as the amazons are evil, it's fucked. The JL wouldn't tolerate a nation doing what the amazons do.
Which fucks up the whole "Diana brings peace to man's world" angle too. Where the hell did she get that peace from?

Man why do you people care so much? It worked for the story and was retconned anyway. Azz's entire run is pretty much an elseworlds
>>93101908
>Considering the Finch's run in any way canon
don't be silly anon

>>93101858
Themyscira has plenty of problems. The issue here is that you, as a surface fan of comics, judge the series based on popular assumptions without any familiarity with the actual stories. So like I told the other fuck, stop now before you make yourself look even dumber.

>>93101908
>Which fucks up the whole "Diana brings peace to man's world" angle too. Where the hell did she get that peace from?
It's almost like she grew up in ignorance of all these wrongdoings and was able to develop ideals independent of them or something

Ass's Paradise would have made sense if there's a flow of immigrants coming in for years distilling hostility and terrorists. But it's been homongeus for a millenimum or so and why is the queen a gigantic hypocrite?

>>93101984
Murderzons where azz already though. And sorry, even if you ignore finch's conclusion, their punishment for what Azz made them do has to be too harsh. It becomes dysfunctional.

>>93101291
>here and read a book.
Nice try manchild, comicbooks don't count as books. Not him but you're still an idiot.

>>93102041
They were created by the Greek gods. Hypocrisy is in their nature.

>>93102053
>characters in a greek myth are disproportionally punished for their wrongdoings
I see nothing wrong with this

>>93102079
That paints Wonder Woman a different picture where having pride for her people means being shit

>>93102148
She is pretty shit.

>>93102105
Yeah, yeah, anon, Diana works with the JL. That means, either her morals are compatible with the JL's or, she's lying to them. Which means, either she brings down amazon regime and locks them up, or she's a hypocritical cunt and world's greatest detective and man of steel take her down.
It's a stupid ass idea.

And usually, in greek myths, people get punished too hard, not too lightly.

>>93102148
You can have pride in the good aspects of your people yet condemn them for their flaws. It's something you generally have to do often; nobody's perfect

>>93102188
Yeah. That's why Azz was terrible

At least Batman's family were upstanding citizens and scenes where Superman experiences his past civilization were so moving

>>93101984
>Man why do you people care so much?
I care because I'm a Wonder Woman fan. The Amazon ideals of peace love and understanding are a vital part of the character's background. Making the Amazons evil strawmen is like making Alfred Pennyworth a child molester, or making the Kents into serial killers. Either fan base of those characters would be rightfully offended, but when Wondy fans bitch, it's suddenly not okay.

Really, this is some straight up Millar shit. "Cap's from the 40s, which means he MUST be a racist, jingoistic piece of shit!". No, that's just fucking stupid, same with the Amazons.

>>93102209
The JL never showed up or were even mentioned in Azz's run. It'spretty much a completely independent story.

>And usually, in greek myths, people get punished too hard, not too lightly.
They got turned into snakes and their queen a stone statue

>>93102273
>Cap's from the 40s, which means he MUST be a racist, jingoistic piece of shit!
Ultimate Cap was a thing. A popular thing at that.

>>93102273
>but when Wondy fans bitch, it's suddenly not okay.

Because you're fan of a shitty character with barely any good story arc in 70 years despite the huge push. You're the embarassing black sheep of the whole DC fandom, only recently contested by Harley Quinn fans. You have no right to anything, much less complaining.

>>93102285
This is the point where I admit I never read Azz and all I know is the 'continuation' from Finch.
I just saw some amazons working for hephaustus to make up for all of them murderraping for centuries and the rest of them still running the island.
In Azz diana never finds man's land and the JL? How the hell does that work?

>>93102334
Savage.

>>93098342
>Is it wrong that I liked Azzarello's portrayal of the Amazons?

Fuck no, the Az run of WW was the only readable run of it.

Amazon society has never made any sense and is frankly absurdly sexist. The notion that every societal problem disappears if men aren't around is the kind of shit that even feminists don't believe outside the Dvorkin lunatic fringe, and can be read as a justification for /pol/ style purges. "If all it takes to reach a paradise is to get rid of the men, why haven't we done so already?"

>>93102236
Except Azz amazons had pretty much no redeeming qualities, they were murderous misandrous rapist lying cunts.

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>>93102342
>This is the point where I admit I never read Azz and all I know is the 'continuation' from Finch.
All this shitposting about hypocrisy and how another anon never read older WW runs and here you are bitching about a run you never read, or even read a summary of. Fucking hilarious /co/.

>>93102334
>>93102346
>One minute apart
If you are going to samefag at least have some subtlety.

>>93102319
That doesn't stop it from being a fucking stupid thing. I swear, this demand for edgy bullshit is cause for concern. It's like I'm sharing this board with a bunch of retarded children who are in love with the EXTREEEEEEEEME trends that make the 90s look bad.

>>93102470
Savage guy here, that dude tore your ass up, wonderfag.

>>93102460
I regret reading the whole run anon.

If Azz's run is truly independent then it should never had been canon at any point of time and no one should have cried "oh no, why is Azz's getting retconned??"

>>93102470
You have to wait the full 60 seconds anon. It couldn't have been a samefag

>>93102410
It's baffling, does anyone actually find the evil Amazons entertaining or interesting? Making them monsters accomplishes nothing, so I always wonder just what the hell the point of that shit is.

>>93102334
Not the anon you replied to , but no shit, sherlocks. Women characters omega sucked balls for the majority of the goddamn past. Look how many poorly written female capeshit movies there are?

Now I'm not saying Azz is doing the same thing. It's fine to have a civilization of extreme assholes, but a Wonder Woman book is not the place for that. Like holy fuck, when her mother turned to stone and her entire shit family turned to snakes, I didn't give a shit!

>>93102342
>In Azz diana never finds man's land and the JL? How the hell does that work?
She's in man's world, story doesn't say how or when she got there. JL is never mentioned, ever. The run is assumed to exist alongside the rest of n52, but goes to lengths to completely ignore everything outside of wondy's universe. Seems rather obvious Azz just wanted to write an elseworlds

As for the amazons, Hera showed up and bitched at them, did her godly polymorph shit and then shit happens, Diana/Hera have characters arcs and short story is the amazons are brought back to fight off big bad and our heroes learn about the merits of forgiveness like a bunch of peace loving feminists or some shit. It's like they were a narrative tool for the character development of the main characters or something. Crazy really.

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>>93102410
What are the redeeming traits of the original amazons?

I remember Diana breaking Hades' heart after promising to marry him.

>>93098342
Post crisis millenial fags hate that they turned Diana's race evil, but like a Superman from a continuity that turned his race stupid, senile and Barbaric?

>>93102797
>Women characters omega sucked balls for the majority of the goddamn past.

Because they had a shitty foundation to build on. That doesn't justify your shit-taste.

>>93102989
>>93101217

>>93102319
>A popular thing at that.

Ultimate Cap was extremely divisive.

>>93103060
Azz shouldn't make more shitty foundations then. The development was so poorly executed. What's the point of feeling like crap for most of the run and then they instantly fight a war for you in the last second?

>>93103103
That does not refute his statement. Your post is clearly downplaying what kind of civilization would abuse it's resources to the point of causing it's violent death. Isn't it also canon that the guardian kept the kryptonians planetbound because they were a bunch of dangerous imperialists?

>>93103177
>Azz shouldn't make more shitty foundations then.

I was talking about the sex on which the characters are based on.
It's hard to make a good story about warrior women or female civilizations when both have been a laugh stock in real life since forever.

>>93103177
To show forgiveness, you know, a defining WW character trait

>>93103245
Since when

>>93103204
But Krypton used to be a glorious futurist place; Something like new genesis. Superman turned into a good man because of superior Kryptonian and El family genes.

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>>93103270
Are you serious

>>93103245
Then why did we not see forgiveness whenever they base WW's character to this run? She sounded like an asshole wondering why Superman would correlate himself to mortal humans

How exactly was Azz's run retconned out?

>>93103279

The fuck?

>>93103396
>Hey this one writer wrote her this way
>Well that can't be true because this other writer wrote her this way
this is not sound logic

>>93103476
Why not? you pick the best story as your favorite and have to deal with whatever the current canon is. We can't have jerk superman or gun shooting batman

>>93103404
His Amazons were weird fake illusion Amazons and the real Amazons were the usual peaceful master race/gender who kept Ares imprisoned on their island or some convoluted shit.

>>93103545
What are you even talking about?

>>93103404
I'm not too sure. I think maybe Azz's Wonder Woman combined with Superdad's Wonder Woman and her timeline changed when red and blue superman combined or some shit

>>93100997
Neither does Tolkien Elves.

>>93103704
And they suck balls too considering Tolkien's all consuming boner for them.

>>93103579
>>93103657
Sometimes I feel like cape comics would be immensely improved if the shared universes were dissolved and writers admitted they don't give a shit about whatever the last writer did and just made independent stories instead of making up some weird bullshit to justify doing things their own way

>>93103579
>Themyscira is in another dimension, and the Amazons are tasked with keeping Ares imprisoned cause he goes into tard rage sometimes
>convoluted
Anon, you may, in fact, be legitimately stupid. If you find that convoluted, I honestly don't know how you read comics and not kill yourself.

>>93102407
The Amazons are semi-divine beings in the DCU, they live in paradise because the gods created them with a higher spiritual understanding.

>>93103766
One of the reasons why I loved Invincible when it first came out. No shared universe with other comics until the spin-offs eventually happened.

>>93103245
It used to be a defining trait for the amazons too.

>>93103704
Everything that goes wrong for like the first three ages of Tolkien's story is because of either Morgoth or elves angry at Morgoth. The whole thing that jumpstarts their downwards spiral are elves killing each other over a bunch of fucking boats. Actually, if you really go back it started because one elf was a selfish prick and didn't want to give up his fancy jewelry to literally save the world.

Tolkien elves have some serious personality defects.

>>93103579
So was Diana actually raised by illusions then? Did the Ares she killed not actually die or was he not actually ares either? Did they erase that whole god of war plotline? Man what the fuck is going on with WW

>>93098342
>at least it adds some negative side to the Amazon's supposedly peaceful, perfect society.
That's not a good thing retard. The whole point of the DC Amazons is they were a deconstruction of the typical ""man-hating child-murdering abominations" story that got told time and time again.
How the fuck am I supposed to root for them if they're a bunch of psycho-bitches that hate everything that's not them while boasting about how "loving" they are.
If I'm reading about Amazons and they're supposed to be protagonists and supporting cast members I'm not supposed to be thinking "Go Ares, you slaughter those monstrous fucks before they castrate everyone in the British Isles again."

>>93104011
Marston said the whole amazon thing was just flavoring. He didn't really care all that much for the mythology of it and was just trying to create something that would attract boys so he could fill their heads with how superior it would be to be ruled by a society of women. He wasn't trying to make a deconstruction, it was just straight up propoganda

>>93103766
Haha, I semi-agree with you. But it seems admirable that they're trying to keep as much of old fans relevant. Even tho I don't like Azz's run, it's cool that it has its passionate fans and still live on thru Injustice 2

>>93103973

Seriously. What the fuck was DC thinking with the entire n52 era? It was a lot of very short sighted poorly planned revamps that shat on core concepts and long term story telling. The whole thing is a mess that's going to take even longer than its pitiful lifespan to untangle.

>>93104110
>and still live on thru Injustice 2
That's not funny anon

>>93104167
They had too many stories in the same universe featuring different characters. It was bound to become a convoluted mess.

>>93103973
Are Fake Memories really such a hard concept to grasp?

>>93104439
They're a really shitty retcon/cop-out

>>93104478
You're reading Superhero comics.

>>93104494
Doesn't change shit.

>>93104478
>retcon

has there even been a good retcon? Good as an effectively executed thing that puts a book in a better position than it was before.

>>93104527
None that I can think of.

>>93104439
The fucking whole run was fake memories? Are they really pulling out the "it was all just a dream" plot device?

Wow. Just...wow.

Bak when this was an ongoing they never once put out Amazonian Claymation shorts.

Its like they hate money or something.

>>93098342
I liked this better them them being given a hyper advanced society, made me think of where the stories of Sirens probably came from in that world.

>>93098342
I liked it. I'm not saying it should be the definitive and canon version of the Amazons, but it worked great in the context of this run which was pretty damn good.
I was never a big continuity fan and I always put story over continuity. I kinda understand long time WW fans being pissed about it.

>>93104011
>castrate everyone in the British Isles again
only a filthy anglo wouldn't see wouldn't se that as the best possible course of action

>>93098342
Are there any reasonable stories where Amazons are shown to be misandrist and keep male slaves for breeding, pleasure, and labor instead of the usual castrate all men approach they're given when portrayed negatively?

>>93098342
It adds too much negative. Making her entire homeland into an island of rapists and murderers and baby killers makes them more horrific villains than pretty much any other villain Wonder Woman faces. It's one thing to make Amazon's flawed it's another to make them into complete monsters. It also makes Diana look like an stupid evil bitch as well for both somehow not knowing this after living there for years and not immediately turning on them and attempting to punish them for being a centuries old society of killers and rapists. Somethings about Greek myth don't work in modern super hero stories, probably why the creator didn't give a fuck about being accurate. It would be a cool Elseworlds story though.

>>93105131
It can do without the murdering although they don't really kill their male babies, they get sent off with smith god. Them seducing and raping men makes some amount of sense.

>>93105283
The only reason they don't kill the babies is because Hephaestus came to them and made a deal. They killed plenty before that and even if they didn't selling them into slavery isn't exactly a step up, regardless of how much they claim to like the guy.

>>93104935
In Perez run there were the Amazons of Bana-Mighdall, who were mercenaries, and unlike Themyscira amazons were not immortal, so they captured men for breeding, and treated them as cattle.

>>93105611
Oh yeah, the ones that got imprisoned, tortured, drugged, and raped in Secret Six.

>>93104395

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about all of the decisions (mostly around Wonder Woman and Superman.) that did little more than ruin long standing ideas and just wreck the possibility of future stories. This wasn't an early Ultimate simplification and retelling. This was a late Ultimate crazy clusterfuck of nothing sticking to the wall.

>>93104527
>>93104554

Parallax/GL Rebirth.

Arguably the merging of Superman and Superbro.

>>93105705
I think I heard about this. Parallax remakes the world and the JL doesn't decide to stop him, right?

>>93105741

What? No. I'm just talking about Johns fixing the editorially mandated and rushed Hal freak out with space bug and the revealing of the Emotional Spectrum.

Yes yes it's an overused concept in Lantern stories now, but it's a damned good overall edition.

>>93104935
Not sure how'd I feel if it actually happens but that does sound hot

>>93098469
That armor is a clumsy mess compared to what she wears now.

>>93107716
pics?

>>93107694
Steve crashes onto the Amazonian island and sees all the enslaved men either being fucked or whipped by the natives. He tries to run away but Diana tackles him and starts beating him into submission. Soon enough Steve is wearing a spiked collar with his name on it.

Nah I liked it a ton, I don't like immortal amazons

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>>93108052
Goddamn, my imagination

>>93098342
So what would the Amazon do if they came across a boat full of homosexuals?

>>93103904
>It used to be a defining trait for the amazons too.

really? >>93102910

>>93103784
but the God who are divine beings in the DCU don't live in paradise don't they have the highest spiritual understanding?

>>93110781
mortals have a much higher capacity for spiritual understanding than gods

>>93101217
And the military coup that was put down by... exiling its leaders into another reality?

I mean, you can't squash a revolution without some disaffected masses being roused into a rabble, right?

Every character in the DC universe has to be perfect and representative of some conceptual ideal

>>93101751

Diana growing up on an island that hates man to the point where they kill them after sex and sell their male infants in exchange for enchanted weapons (before that they just threw them at rocks) and never absorbing any of that never made sense in that goddamn run. She was generically nice without any explanation.

>>93102032

HOW? That shit is too convenient. The author knew the character couldn't work as a hero with that added background. So he simple made a dumb excuse that doesn't make any sense.

>>93110892
There were never men around when she was growing up. She had no opportunity to absorb their man-hating.

>>93110939

It doesn't matter because her people still hated men with a fucking passion. She should still grow up believing the same shit as them.

Do you think southern racists stop hating niggers just because they never interacted with one?

>>93110756
No one gives a shit about the trinity's original comics.

>>93102910
>>93110756

It was all a sex-play. They also didn't kill their husbands.

>>93098342
>>93099188
>>93101463
>>93104011
>>93104869
>>93105131

This is how the Amazons were described in the earliest stories about. Azzarello didn't "make anything up". Why don't you mongoloids actually read a book once in a while, huh?

>>93110975
Yeah, they were just made unwilling sex slaves. Totally okay. Boy they sure did respect men a whole lot to grant them such an honor.

>>93110981

>This is how the Amazons were described in the earliest stories about.

No, it isn't. Not even in the myths they were as bad as Azz portrayed them, you casual.

>>93110981
Lex Luther also planned to impersonate superman's dad, build a ship, pretend it's stolen, escape from Krypton, and have Superman become his son in the future. Just because such shit elements were old doesn't make it good, and just because it existed before, doesn't make the writer building up on the bad parts make them automatically good.

Over the years, amazons were written better, if you want to ignore the good parts and come back to the bad, then just say so. Don't be a naive oldfag

>>93104869

>but it worked great in the context of this run which was pretty damn good.

It really didn't. Specially in regard to Wonder Woman character.

>>93102535
Because Rucka's recent run is fucking boring. I'm glad he left the book.

If his run had been good no one would give a fuck about him retconning Azz's run (look at Superman as an example of retconning a run and people being fine with it). But Rucka's run has been trash.

>>93110802
but they are not mortals they are semi-divine immortal beings

>>93108790

They were still immortal. That the most stupid thing about Azz amazons. They literally raped and killed sailors and sold their male babies off as a joke. The was no need for any of it.

>>93110968
So why don't people like when DC changes it?

>>93104527
Batman Year One.

>>93110981

The amazons in the myths had a neighboring island made of men where they would go to fuck and later they'd leave their male babies with their fathers and go back to their island with their female babies. They also went to fight in outside wars to test their skills and valor. There were even some amazons that left the island out of love for man so they could marry and live with their men.

Marston's amazons would hunt for husbands annuall, have their sex games and then release said husbands.

None of them would kill their sex partners or kill their infant male babies like the Azz's amazons. Azz just went beyond comical evil.

>>93111095
They died fighting monsters. One of the annuals had a story about it and how Diana went to kill a minotaur but had a moment of empathy and didn't.

It's almost like she was established as unusually empathic and willing to look past bias from childhood. You might even call her some kind of...wonder...woman.

>>93111160

>It's almost like she was established as unusually empathic and willing to look past bias from childhood. You might even call her some kind of...wonder...woman.

Unusually is the right word, because there's not in her culture and upbringing that can explain her being unusually different and nice. There's no explanation to why she's so different and nice. Basically, the amazons being evil and Diana being nice is basically a plot-hole. It's shit.

The run is full of contradictory and contrived shit like that.

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>>93110948
>>93110939
Neither of those work.
Diana didn't grow to be a manhater because she was raised on heroic ideals and didn't allow prejudice to warp them.
It's like how Cap was raised in Early 1900s America but is anachronistically tolerant. He believes the text of American ideals without the subtext of historical or modern prejudices. America is great because freedom and opportunity and he dispenses that indiscriminately. Wonder Woman believes the ideals of Love and Compassion and dispenses those indiscriminately.

>>93111104
It seems to be more about recent runs superseding eachother than about the originals.

>>93111041
>Over the years, amazons were written better

when not only does WW not have any character defining runs she has almost no great stories she is in desperate need of a reimagining I think what Azz did was a great first step

>>93111184
Also she had interacted with a man. Albeit an inhuman man.
>>93111183
>plot-hole
Not really

>>93111184

>Diana didn't grow to be a manhater because she was raised on heroic ideals and didn't allow prejudice to warp them.

What heroic ideals? Where did these ideals come from? Who taught them to her?

You can't answer that. It didn't come from her mother. It didn't come from her mother and her's advisor. It didn't come from her amazon best friend. It didn't come from Ares. So where she gain those heroic ideals from?

>>93111184
There were tolerant people in the 1940s anon. Sure they weren't "woke" in the modern sense, but there has been tolerance in human society throughout it's existence.

>>93111183
She developed her ideals based on the good aspects of amazon culture, and her empathy allowed her to look past it's more bigoted aspects. Like how you can find people in hte south who don't hate niggers just because everyone else does.

Seriously, do you people think everyone is some kind of meat puppet incapable of independent thought or coming to conclusions the majority doesn't agree with? I would think 4chan of all places would have some idea of how contrarians come about

>>93111213

Maybe it's just because she's a nice person? A nature rather than nurture thing?

>>93111202

Yes, a man that tried to push her to not show compassion and to kill.

Yes, it is a plot-hole. Because Azz decided to turn the amazons into such evil cunts, but meanwhile Wonder Woman, who grew up to adulthood in that vile culture is never shown to be like her amazon sisters. She's generically nice and understanding. She doesn't even hate men. So yes, it's a big plot-hole.

>>93111213
>where did her heroic ideals come from
>in a culture modeled after the one that invented classical tales of heroism
How much do you need spelled out for you

>>93111224

>She developed her ideals based on the good aspects of amazon culture

What good aspects? None where shown in the run itself. Why doesn't she hate men with a passion when every time another amazon is shown on page they're saying how much they hate and want to kill a man?

>Seriously, do you people think everyone is some kind of meat puppet incapable of independent thought or coming to conclusions the majority doesn't agree with? I would think 4chan of all places would have some idea of how contrarians come about

Even people in south who grow up with racism being an every day-to-day thing absorb SOMETHING.

>>93111183
>the amazons being evil and Diana being nice is basically a plot-hole

No its not it's called being an individual where i grew up all my family and friends were huge racist and yet i'm not is that a plot hole in my life

>>93111254

The amazonian culture in the comic had no redeeming qualities.

>>93111260

I don't believe you and even then you didn't grew up in a isolationist island with no internet.

>>93111257
>when every time another amazon is shown on page they're saying how much they hate and want to kill a man?
Now you're just making things up. Men weren't even relevant the vast majority of their existence. Do you think they walked around the island everyday grumbling about the men that didn't exist?

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Azz' Wonder Woman made no sense being so nice. If Azz wasn't such a pussy he'd show Wonder Woman being as much of a cunt as her amazon sisters.

Here's how Wonder Woman should have behaved in his run. Pic related. NOW this is a reasonable portrayal of the character given the Azz's portrayal of the amazons.

>>93111276
>The amazonian culture in the comic had no redeeming qualities.
So do you think the amazons hated each other? Do you believe Dian's mother never loved her, that nobody ever showed compassion to each other, that every day was just a living hell where they either beat each other to death or were grumbling about how much they hated men?

>>93111213
Her mother who still raised her with the ideals of compassion and love. The difference was that Diana took those ideals and removed prejudice from them.
>>93111234
Still. A man she loved and was her mentor.

>>93111287

>Do you think they walked around the island everyday grumbling about the men that didn't exist?

YES! The run started with the amazons hunting Hermes with glee, a FUCKING GOD, and joking about how they'd enjoy castrate and kill him. They didn't even care that he was a god. All that mattered was he was male. Then after right that they were turned into snakes and disappeared from the rest of the run up until the very end when they were forced to defend their home along with the male amazons. Even then they still hated the whole idea. The queen's adviser even tried to kill the male baby that was supposed to be Zeus reincarnated.

And every amazon of age was required to go on voyages where they raped and killed male sailors. So hating man was a very active thing in their society.

Wonder Woman should have absorbed some of that. Her being generically nice makes no sense. It's azz trying to have his cake and eat it too.

>>93111357
>Situations where men are present cause them to react to men
And what about the days when men aren't present?

>>93111325

The only thing that was shown to us that they were very competitive with each other and hated man with a passion. That they went on voyages to kill innocent sailors. That they sold their male infants for weapons and before that just outright killed them. Nothing more.

>>93111356

>Her mother who still raised her with the ideals of compassion and love. The difference was that Diana took those ideals and removed prejudice from them.

Compassion for who or what? They were competitive as fuck. I doubt her mother taught her to be compassion to enemies. Where in the book was shown that her mother taught Diana to be compassionate. Show me the page. I also doubt her mother taught her to be compassionate for outsiders and, specially, man.

>Still. A man she loved and was her mentor.

She was generic nice there without any explanation. She should have been distrustful of him or even attacked him.

There is no explanation for why Diana is so generically nice and compassionate. None. Nothing about the amazons show us they were compassionate. They were even more of a warrior culture in Azz book. These things you guys are taking out of the ass to excuse Azz writing.

>>93111389

They probably still talked about how men where awful, specially when Diana showed any desire to see how the outside world was. Like when she talked with Aleka.

>>93111276
>The amazonian culture in the comic had no redeeming qualities.

This is not true they clearly valued family, friendship strength , and compassion amongst ech other i don't see wht it's so havd for you to understand that WW just expanded these ideas to everyone

Even muslim countries where it is socially acceptable to rape young boys can produce someone who is loving caring and tolerant so why can't amazon culture which arguably has more redeeming qualities than a islamic culture

>>93101439
*more stupid

>>93111414

>This is not true they clearly valued family, friendship strength , and compassion amongst ech other i don't see wht it's so havd for you to understand that WW just expanded these ideas to everyone

They valued sisterhood only. Even during their playful competitions compassion was not valued. Diana was taught by her amazon sisters to show no mercy.

You're making up excuses to explain shit characterization.

>Even muslim countries where it is socially acceptable to rape young boys can produce someone who is loving caring and tolerant so why can't amazon culture which arguably has more redeeming qualities than a islamic culture

Muslim countries have a diverse as fuck culture. It's not really matter for comparison.

>>93098342
Azzarello's Wonder Woman works as a stand-alone story.

>>93111414

>so why can't amazon culture which arguably has more redeeming qualities than a islamic culture

Azz's amazons had less redeeming qualities than any islamic culture. They're villainous as fuck. No Islamic culture teach you to kill or sell your male or female offspring.

>>93111453
>they clearly valued family, friendship strength , and compassion amongst ech other
>They valued sisterhood only.
There is no difference between these two in a society where there are only women

>>93111394
>They were competitive as fuck.

So are man IRL but we don't say they don't feel compassion and love.

>I doubt her mother taught her to be compassion to enemie

Did you miss the part where he said
>Diana took those ideals and removed prejudice from them.

>There is no explanation for why Diana is so generically nice and compassionate

Maybe she's a naturally nice person those are things that exist a person is not just their upbringing

>>93111469
>No Islamic culture teach you to kill or sell your male or female offspring
That's literally what arranged marriage is
And then there's the stonings for all manner of wrongdoings

>>93111484

Yes, when Diana was taught to be competitive and show her amazon sisters no compassion during these competitions. It was all about the strong ruling the weak.

>>93111453
>Muslim countries have a diverse as fuck culture
yes and a lot of those cultures have messed up values and belief but they can still produce caring and loving people yes or no?

>>93111075
Azz's run is soooo out there you act like there's a subtle difference. I instantly grew bored with the slang slinging ghetto oracle girls. I don't know what is considered boring to each individual, but I know Rucka's at least focused on characterization, diplomatic elements, and a pretty cool retelling of the origin story without all these women being psychotic bitches to eachother

>>93111504

>So are man IRL but we don't say they don't feel compassion and love.

We also live in a diverse culture where we are taught a bunch of other things. You want a good example? Spartans. Now think about how they culture was like. Not much room for compassion, eh?

>Did you miss the part where he said

I didn't. I just ignored because you're making up excuses to explain Wonder Woman shit characterization because Azz knew he couldn't show Wonder Woman being a cunt in his run despite making her amazons sisters villains.

>Maybe she's a naturally nice person those are things that exist a person is not just their upbringing

Convenient.

>>93111506

Arranged marriage is about family and business building. Even then there are measures taken to protect the female.

>>93111325
>do you think the amazons hated each other
Yes actually, Azz's decision to have Diana be mocked and ridiculed by the other amazons is a complete reversal of the loving sisterhood that Marston created.

>>93111507
You have a very warped understanding about what what was going on in this comic. It was about being decisive, so you don't end up stabbed in the gut when you're in a real fight

>>93111517

But since they're diverse the Muslims are able to grow with a much more complex way of thinking.

The amazons only had one culture, one way of thinking things. Not much room for dissident sentimentality to breed in their midst.

>>93111414
>they clearly valued family, friendship strength , and compassion amongst ech other
Yet they all treat Diana, who exemplifies these values, with utter disdain.

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>>93111566
Not much but enough.

>>93111556

I don't have a warped understanding. I'm just taking what the comic showed instead of creating head-canons.

The amazons were taught to show no mercy in battle. You agreed with me there. So where exactly Diana gained her values of compassion? From her competitive amazon sisters that ridiculed and mocked her for being different from them? From the teachings that tried to ingrain in her to not show mercy to weaker opponents? Where did her compassion come from?

FUCKING NOWHERE. That's the fucking answer. She was generically nice and understanding because she was the protagonist and Azz couldn't really show her being a cunt. He tried to reveal the amazons were monsters to do a smart TWEEST but didn't think how this should affect the protagonist that grew in that toxic culture. At most he came up with lame excuses that she was unaware of the bad parts and always felt like an outside among her people. Lame excuses to fill a plot-hole.

>>93111596

Yeah, but that page is the queen being a hypocritical cunt. She loved getting dicked by Zeus despite fostering and maintaining a culture that utterly despised and advocated the death of males. There's a reason why she never told the truth about Diana's origin to anyone.

I remember when Azz's run was still ongoing it was like pulling teeth to get /co/ to acknowledge any faults in it. Now it's the same to get them to acknowledge anything good about it. How does this shit keep happening?

>>93111639
>Need to repopulate and have no men at home
>can't let outsiders know you exist
There are few ways this could be resolved

>>93111544
>Spartans. Now think about how they culture was like. Not much room for compassion

No but are you saying that within spartan culture they never produced one loving and caring person

>I just ignored

So you don't have an argument

>Convenient.

Not really modern science says that nature matters more than nurture

>Arranged marriage is about family and business building. Even then there are measures taken to protect the female.

When amazon's go out looking for men it's also about family and business building and they go out of their way to protect the females

>>93098342

>Sure, it [negative thing]... but at least it [same negative thing]

That's not how you're supposed to use that sentence structure.

>>93111656

Raiding boats and killing all the sailors they sexed up isn't one of them, though. Eventually there is going to be an investigation on all these boats that wonder about with all its crew dead.

>>93111566
i'm not talking about a movement of amazon's valuing peace and love for everone i'm talking about one person

is it so hard to believe that one person can be an individual independent of the culture they were raised in

>>93111577
because she applied those values to someone outside of their in group

>>93111668

>No but are you saying that within spartan culture they never produced one loving and caring person

Point me one, please.

>So you don't have an argument

My argument is that you're making up shit to excuse a plot-hole.

>When amazon's go out looking for men it's also about family and business building and they go out of their way to protect the females

We are talking about arrange marriage in relation to how the Muslim culture treat is daughters in comparison to how the amazons treated their sons. The amazons didn't cared if they sons died or not. Hephaestus simple gave them a better deal. If Hephaestus was buying them to eat them or something, they didn't cared. they were simple throwing their male babies at rocks at first.

>>93111704

But where she gain those values when she herself didn't grow up being shown any compassion?

>>93111357
What are you talking about? Centaurs were hunting Hermes, he was injured, and Diana brought him to Themiscyra to heal. They never touched him, then for their kindness they got their sisters killed when Strife showed up to fuck with them some more. They were understandably resentful about the whole affair, but still never took any actions against the gods, what with them being fucking gods. Then Hera snaked them cause it took her that long to figure out Zeus cheated on her. Again.

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>>93111696

>i'm not talking about a movement of amazon's valuing peace and love for everone i'm talking about one person

Hippolyta got dicked after fighting Zeus several times. She just got wet eventually from having her shit constantly pushed in, both figuratively and literally. Nothing in that give an impression of peace and love for a man. To the contrary, the basis for the relationship was aggression and lust.

>is it so hard to believe that one person can be an individual independent of the culture they were raised in

I'm not saying that Diana can't have independent thoughts. I'm just saying that her being so generically nice is a fault of the comic. Sure, she can be somewhat different, but she should still be somewhat like her people. She's nothing like the other amazons. That's the problem. She had a much better characterization in Justice League and Superman/Wonder Woman at the time, because at least those books portrayed her as a major cunt. It made sense that a Wonder Woman growing up among Azz's amazons would be somewhat of a cunt. Meanwhile Azz's own portrayal of Wonder Woman was kind of contradictory.

>>93111718
>Point me one, please.

i don't know enough about spartan to do that but if we point to their closest modern day equivalent muslims who are not only taught to show no mercy to their enemies but to show no mercy to anyone who isn't their kind of muslim I can point to Alan Hirsi Ali and if you google ex-muslims there are hundreds of readily available examples

>My argument is that you're making up shit to excuse a plot-hole

I think it's a plot hole so any argument that goes against that is making shit up

>Muslim culture treat is daughters in comparison to how the amazons treated their sons

why would you make this comparison it's unfair and stupid humans will always treat women and better than men

>The amazons didn't cared if they sons died or not

Yes and no one is denying this what we are saying is wonder woman doesn't believe this what you are saying is it's impossible for her to have belief that go against her culture

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>>93111793

>What are you talking about? Centaurs were hunting Hermes, he was injured, and Diana brought him to Themiscyra to heal. They never touched him

They were hunting Hermes when he was brought to Themiscyra, actually. As soon as Hermes appeared they started to hunt him and joke about how they'd castrate him. The hunt only stopped when Wonder Woman fought them off and said he was under her protection.

>>93111640
How can you tell? There's like 10-55 people here in this thread at most

>>93111741
>She herself didn't grow up being shown any compassion?

WW was shown to be friends with several amazon's and her mother clearly loved her

>>93111816

I already told you why Muslims aren't an apt comparison since they have a wide and diverse culture. You're using the extremists and radicals, which are considered extremists and radicals for a reason.

>I think it's a plot hole so any argument that goes against that is making shit up

When the argument is trying to come up with things that weren't in the comics, yes.

>why would you make this comparison it's unfair and stupid humans will always treat women and better than men

Because you were the one who tried to use arrange marriages as an argument.

>Yes and no one is denying this what we are saying is wonder woman doesn't believe this what you are saying is it's impossible for her to have belief that go against her culture

The problem is that she didn't seem to share anything in common with her people when she grew up to adulthood only having that culture to form her character.

>>93111849

You can be friends with people and have loved ones while still being taught by everyone to never show any compassion anyone or love to any outsiders, like Wonder Woman seemed to be taught in the comic both by her amazon sisters and Ares.

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>>93100201

Your reading of greek myth is totally incorrect.
The Amazons were villainous to the Greeks because their women and men rode on horseback into battle as equals. They were nomadic barbarians, uncivilized. (Probably based on the Scythians, now modern day Turkey)
Hippolyta, the queen of amazons, her name literally means Horse Woman. (Hippopotamus means Water Horse for comparison)

And almost nothing about Sappho is known. Her poetry doesn't translate very well into modern languages. She made a joke once when asked if she had a husband. She replied his name was "All-Cock from Man Island." She was famous for her poetry, and her infamy of taking female lovers.

>>93111832
>As soon as Hermes appeared they started to hunt him and joke about how they'd castrate him
Joke is the key word there. It's questionable if they even knew it was freakin' Hermes, especially if they couldn't tell Diana was with him. At best they sensed a man was around (because they have some bizarre magic man sensing powers?) and had to get rid of him. It all happened over literally two minutes after getting onto the island

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>>93111840
>>93111640

/co/ doesn't talk about good things, because there's nothing to argue about. But /co/ is so contrarian that anything that used to be good eventually has to be bad.

And we're only talking about Azz's Wonder Woman because of the movie.

>>93111954

They still hunted a man in the comic and joked about they'd castrate him. That's the first thing we learn about Wonder Woman's amazon sisters. That's the first impression of them we gain. Later we learn that Hippolyta is a hypocritical lying cunt. And after some time that the amazons are rapists, coldblooded murderers and baby killers as well. Other than that we learn they're competitive and heartless as fuck, and that Diana was also bullied and ostracized for being born different. Meaning that their prejudice wasn't just reserved for men.

There's not one redeeming quality shown about them. But for some odd reason Diana's nice, understanding, compassionate and apparently loves everyone. Yeah, no. That don't jive.

>>93098342
I liked it but I wish maybe we could just blame it on a cult within the Amazons. Fuckers ignore a great one based soley on this issue

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>>93111552
It's literally just Aleka being a bitch the whole time. Nobody else tries to bully Diana except for her. The woman is the classic schoolyard bully archetype. Everyone else just treats her like they do other amazons

>>93111924

>The Amazons were villainous to the Greeks because their women and men rode on horseback into battle as equals. They were nomadic barbarians, uncivilized. (Probably based on the Scythians, now modern day Turkey)

That's the thing most Azz's fans ignore about the myths. The amazons in the myths had nothing against men. They just thought they were tough bitches that thought they could do or be as good as ny man. That's why the Greeks thought they were awful dumb bitches. There are myths of amazons falling in love with a man or marrying a man. In the Iliad several amazons sided with Troy and some even had some romance in the heat of the battle with some of the mythical heroes from the invading forces.

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Surely there must be some decent point of balance between the perfect people and society of Perez's run and the merciless man-eaters of Azzarello's run.

>>93112060

Other amazons are shown as hating Diana after the Eris massacre and when First Born is about the invade the island.

>>93111924
>>93112079
The myths had several variations, one where the amazons and manazons were separate tribes that got together only to fuck, where they were equals, where amazons were crazy one tittied savages that kidnapped boys to fuck, etc. Myth is often inconsistent, that's why it's myth

>>93112108

Perez's amazons weren't all perfect. They weren't also all warriors. There were scholars and shit that never took up a sword. The amazon general, for example, was a big cunt. There other amazons there that became antagonists in the book for being major cunts. There were the Bana-Mighdall amazons that weren't immortals and had male slaves for baby making. Shit was pretty balanced.

Azz's fans are just fucking casuals. Azz turned the Themiscyrian amazons into even edgier Bana-Mighdalls and they eat it up.

>>93112148
>where amazons were crazy one tittied savages that kidnapped boys to fuck

Did they kill the boys or where they dommie mummies to them?

>>93112108
>>93112167

Perez's amazons also weren't all lesbos. Some were lesbos, some were eternal virgins, some still longed for cocks.

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>>93112115
The Eris Massacre was again just Aleka being a bitch and trying to rally them into an angry mob.

I don't remember enough about the firstborn incident to say because I stopped caring enough about the run by then.

>>93111895
>Muslims aren't an apt comparison since they have a wide and diverse culture

then neither are the spartans because they didn't grow up on isolated island

>Because you were the one who tried to use arrange marriages as an argument

but you were specifically ignoring how muslims treat boys in favor of using girl which is completely unfair because women have and always will be treated better than men

>come up with things that weren't in the comics

me and you are both using things that are not in the comics to support our arguments it's called making a reasonable assumption

>The problem is that she didn't seem to share anything in common with her people

this isn't true she just took all the good and neutral parts of her culture while discarding the negative ones she's still a warrior highly competitive and often uses violence to solve her problems

>>93112012
>There's not one redeeming quality shown
they love their daughters

>>93112242

>then neither are the spartans because they didn't grow up on isolated island

The Spartans were much more of a isolationists. They would take slaves from neighboring city states and treat them as cattle.

>but you were specifically ignoring how muslims treat boys in favor of using girl which is completely unfair because women have and always will be treated better than men

The problem is that YOU started using arrange marriages as argument to excuse the amazons selling their male infants. You made the comparison, not me. I merely pointed out that Muslim still treat their daughters much better despite the whole arrange marriage bit.

>me and you are both using things that are not in the comics to support our arguments it's called making a reasonable assumption

Nope. I'm basing all my arguments on what was shown in the comic. I just raise the point that given how the amazons were portrayed that Wonder Woman characterization made no sense.

>this isn't true she just took all the good and neutral parts of her culture while discarding the negative ones she's still a warrior highly competitive and often uses violence to solve her problems

That still doesn't explain her not hating man one bit or showing compassion to enemies. She was thought the very opposite. Teachings that were integral to her culture and society.

>>93111683

Sailors die at sea all the time, and and into antiquity there was no real way of knowing what happened

>>93112396

Anon, the comic implied they still did the whole sailor killing thing up to modern age.

>>93100493
That's why they had the women diddle little boys into myth. /ss/ was disgusting to them, but they loved traps.

>>93112411
And would amazons understand anything about the expectations of modern seafaring?

>>93112454

I don't know, man. A lot was left unanswered in the comic. Lots of things to nitpick about.

>>93111924
Sappho was infamous for being a slut. The poetry was just shit they said was good because the pussy was platinum. Modern feminists and some older ones have and are trying to uplift her into something besides some whore.

>>93112338
>The Spartans were much more of a isolationists. They would take slaves from neighboring city states and treat them as cattle.

this isn't even in the same league as the amazon's

>The problem is that YOU started using arrange marriages as argument

that actually wasn't me and you still haven't addressed how muslims treat their sons

>Nope. I'm basing all my arguments on what was shown in the comic

no you are not you specifically pointed to the spartans to support your argument that culture similar to the amazon's can't produce caring and loving people

>That still doesn't explain her not hating man one bit or showing compassion to enemies

this makes no sense i'm an american atheist who doesn't know any other atheist is it magic that i'm not religious

>>93112489

>this isn't even in the same league as the amazon's

Yes, Azz's amazons are much worse. They take no prisoners.

>that actually wasn't me and you still haven't addressed how muslims treat their sons

They treated their sons better, of course. But they also treat their daughters much better than Azz's amazons treat their sons.

>no you are not you specifically pointed to the spartans to support your argument that culture similar to the amazon's can't produce caring and loving people

Because it is the only fucked up culture enough i can think of to compare to Azz's amazons.

>this makes no sense i'm an american atheist who doesn't know any other atheist is it magic that i'm not religious

You grew up in a diverse culture with means of getting contrasting knowledge and opinion. You had libraries, TV, internet, and such. You can't use your example as comparison.

>>93112489
>this makes no sense i'm an american atheist who doesn't know any other atheist is it magic that i'm not religious
This isn't a terribly good analogy since modern times have an absurd amount of philosophies and information readily available to virtually everyone. You just need to turn on the TV to be exposed to new ideas half the time.

Though on the flipside Themiscyra is supposed to be a paradise with and archive of all knowledge so who knows, maybe Diana spent a lot of time in the libraries

>>93112587

>Though on the flipside Themiscyra is supposed to be a paradise

Not Azz's Themiscyra.

>>93112488
/pol/ it's kinda cringy how obvious it is that you haven't actually read anything related to Sappho or Greek history.
At best you seem to have skimmed the wikipedia article.

>>93112570
you're moving the goalposts?

>>93112708

How?

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>>93099188
This.

I take issue with the phrase "supposedly" there.

They are utopian. That's the entire point. You can introduce flaws into their society, which of course has been done many times, but at the fundamental level, you have to have those utopian aspects: they are peaceful, they value reason and academia, they value the arts, they value philosophy, and they are devoutly spiritual. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE WHO DEPICTS THEM AS A WARRIOR CULTURE FAILS TO UNDERSTAND.

You want them to be flawed, you do so by making them isolationist, by making them conservative and stagnant, not by making them a bunch of violent, hateful idiots.

As I always say, doing that is like making the Kents into religious racists, or the Waynes into classist assholes. In your attempt to "humanize" them you have gone way too far in the other direction and made them unlikable caricatures.

>>93110981
Because Marston SPECIFICALLY made the Amazons the opposite of the mythical ones. He took the concept of the all-female society but asked "what if they worshipped and followed Aphrodite instead of Ares?"

This is what you and Azzarello completely missed the point of. Apparently Wonder Woman's ARCHENEMY being Ares in the Golden Age didn't make it clear enough for you that these are an intentional subversion of the mythical Amazons.

>>93112728

>or the Waynes into classist assholes.

Or a bunch of rich satanists and degenerates who like to have their Eye Wide Shut sex cults where Martha do drugs and fuck a bunch of guys while Thomas watches and masturbate.

Remember when Morrison introduced that as villain ploy to ruin the Wayne's reputation and was proven to be obviously fake because it was stupid?

During Azz's run i was hoping that it was going to be revealed Hephaestus lied to Diana so he could manipulate her somehow, but nope. It was all true.

>>93112786
Marston has been barely relevant to wonder woman for decades. Marston's whole "brainwash boys into worshipping the all-powerful pussy" shtick just doesn't fly and DC has been trying to turn WW into something else ever since.

>>93098342
>some negative side
People have added some negative sides to them again and again, Azzarello made them irredeemable assholes. Instead of nuance he went overboard in the other direction. Why should this be a good thing?

Rapemazons are Bestmazons

>>93112724
sorry it's more accurate to say that we moved the goalposts we are no longer discussing wonder woman's characters

we went from discussing is wonder woman's character plausible within her culture to how isolated was sparta, how muslims treat their children, and wherethe evidence we use to support our arguments come from rather than the actual arguments themselves

while in some way this all does relate back to the main topic this conversation has gotten way off topic and i honestly gotten bored of it

>>93112873

That's okay, m8. Let's agree to drop it.

>>93112851

>Marston's whole "brainwash boys into worshipping the all-powerful pussy" shtick just doesn't fly

I disagree.

>>93103766
I disagree completely, the fact that the stories happen within the lore of a universe larger than themselves is what makes Big 2 comics worth reading in the first place, take that away and all you have is mediocre books.

>>93112728

>They are utopian. That's the entire point

And it's shit it's obvious that DC needed to do something new with her and that what this was if you don't like it that's fine but let's not pretend the way they're usually portrayed makes any kind of sense

>making them isolationist
How is this a flaw

>>93112921
It's a premise that relies heavily on positive discrimination.

>>93112856
>People have added some negative sides to them again and again

like what being isolationist that's not a flaw in any meaningful way and neither are any of the other flaws you can name me

>>93112851
Obviously not everything from the Golden Age has to stick around (as we've seen with Superman not being a douchebag power fantasy and Batman not letting crooks die constantly) but the core aspects of the characters and their back stories remain.

And also, with Batman and Superman a lot of things that are now central to the character developed over the decades and Wonder Woman is no different. Azz's Amazons are the big outliers in her history after literally over 50 years of developing the Amazons very linearly, Amazons Attack notwithstanding. Like with Bats and Supes you see a very clear development of the central aspects of the character over the years and then you have a sudden knee-jerk turn.

For all the unfounded bitching people do about Wondie being "inconsistent" or "constantly reinvented" it seems paradoxical that the very same people praise Azz's run despite being the most drastic reinvention in the character's history not counting Odyssey which was for all intents and purposes an Elseworld.

>>93112993
Perhaps the fact they would be mediocre books if they couldn't rely on a shared universe is the real issue

>>93113065
That's just the nature of DC and Marvel comics, to change that would be to take away everything that makes them what they are. If you don't like that you should be reading indie comics instead.

>>93113055
The core of wonder woman is this bizarre female superiority message. Everything about her was modeled to show how innately better WW and the amazons were and that man's world needed their guidance. It's not a terribly relatable message like batman's war on crime or superman's standing up for the everyman, so DC has been trying for some time to make it so, and really that ultimately means removing a good chunk of it's roots as radically feminist propoganda.
Though ironically the core concept may actually be more acceptable in this day and age than it was before.

>>93113130
>to improve the quality of writing would take away from what makes the big two what they are
???

>>93113301
Why are you even reading big two comics if not for the whole mythos associated with their characters through decades worth of stories involving them? If you want standalone stories you're much better off reading the indies rather than ask the big two to be something they're not.

>>93112488
>Sappho was infamous for being a slut
So what? Only men are allowed to like sex?

>>93113403
Because I like specific characters and want to read stories about them?

>>93113459
The reason these characters mean so much to people is precisely because there's a long continuity associated to them.

C L A Y
L
A
Y

>>93112873
I had to sleep earlier so I wasn't part of the comparing to real life stuff

>>93113487
That's all well and good but I don't really care to see superman flying about in my swamp thing though that one time was a good story, or to have to figure out if the superman comic I'm reading features a family man who's a dimensional refugee from some grand battle of the worlds or an orphan who was actually made for some reality retcon but no wait is actually half of the other superman from another dimension who are both actually halves of an older superman who was split in two because GOTTA GO FAST man wanted to bring back his mommy and his evil doppleganger fucked up reality for everyone but wait it was actually a naked blue guy behind it all?

I just want to read a nice story about a character I like. I don't want to follow several company events that only tangentially relate to the characters and themes that interested me in the first place.

>>93099366
Behold the real fag

>>93111640
It's just the plebbitfags and newfags that rebotch and DCEU has brought over.

>>93098342
You see now that the problem is that Azz did nothing wrong but Wondiecucks are too autistic to accept any sort of change to their ""canon""

So is Diana still a Zeus baby in the Rucka run

>>93114097
This

>>93103204
>what kind of civilization would abuse its resources to the point of causing it's violent death
Krypton was a peaceful and futuristic place in the silver and Bronze age. Byrne decided to turn it into a awkward and senile planet. That guardians thing was another edgy retcons added by DC's Bendis I'm his badly written story, where Kandorians were also power hungry. I don't see why people like turning Superman's home world into a mess, but Amazons have to be these inspirational people?

>>93114097
The thing that they like Cucka's current run which is America tier, shows how severe their autism is.

>>93112728
Agree with all of this but I do think that writers should do a better job of having Diana wanting to bring at least a LITTLE change into Amazonian society.

>>93112921
No one gives a fuck what you think

>>93114097
Only Batfags are bigger not muh faggots. Face it Wondycucks Zeus being Diana's father is the most widely known origin and it's not going to change thanks to the movie.

>>93114119
Jason is still canon apparently so I'm going to go with yes. Plus given how popular the movie is expect the Zeus origin to be THE origin now.

>>93117429
Good, makes way more sense than that being made out of clay crap.

>>93112872
True dat.

>>93117429
I thought synergy is a bad idea? The movies shouldn't take place in comic universe

>>93119671
The movies ARE copying the comics genius. Granted that little retcon came along because DC wanted to make Diana's origin more casual friendly but it still predates the movie. All the movie did was solidify it in the casual awareness.

>>93119833
So basically Batman are shit in the collective consciousness. I'm not okay with that line of thinking. Not really sure what's /co/'s problem with superman. He seems just fine

I liked it. The whining drama over it is why I ended up reading the comic. I'm more of a mythology fan and it finally made it seem like they were actually going with how fucked up myths were instead of pretending she lived on lady utopia.

>>93122410

But it's nothing like the myths. Why do you guys keep using the myths excuse?

>>93110802
>>93103784
RETARD ALERT, RETARD ALERT

>>93098342
>the Amazon's supposedly peaceful, perfect society
since when?

amazons are feminazis

>>93122539
Because they weren't perfect in the myths?

>>93123770

They were still a lot better than Azz's amazons. LOT better.

>>93123786
And?

>>93123819

And thus my point that using the myths to excuse Azz portrayal of the amazons make no sense, when in the myths the amazons were a lot more chill and sympathetic than in his comics. He turned the amazons into comical levels of villainy.

>>93098342
>Is it wrong that I liked Azzarello's portrayal of the Amazons?
Yes. They're objectively edgy trash.

Thank you based Rucka for turning them into nothing but a fever dream.

>>93111075
>Because Rucka's recent run is fucking boring
The payoff in the last Wondy issue was literally better than anything in Azz's run.

It's easy to do edgy and make it entertaining. It's so much harder to do stuff that actually fits the mythos and the characters and make that entertaining.

>>93124506
>>93124570
>edge, edge, edge look at how ow the edge is

Put some effort in your posts why don't ya.