Why does Frank Miller hate Superman so much, and why does he

>>92941931
>why does he assume that he's culpable to being a government stooge, or being controlled by anyone?
Because Superman is all about 'the American way'. He was raised to be a patriot and knows that his abilities have to be kept in check. Those are both pretty easy psychological features to exploit.

>>92941931
Miller loves gritty and imperfect things, those are his favorite stories to tell. The idea of Superman is offensive to him to some degree while Batman appeals to him.

>>92941976

That's due to a misunderstanding of what 'the American Way' is by Frank Miller. Superman embodies the search for truth and justice, and the inherently self-sacrificial nature of Americans, to put ourselves in harm's way to protect those who need it. Superman's altruism is supposed to mirror the assumed altruism of the American patriot, who will enlist in the military, volunteer for civic service and do the right thing simply for the reason that it's right. Not to mention the sort of individualism necessary in order to declare war on its parent state. Nowhere in 'the American Way' do I see subservience to a government that very obviously means harm on its citizenry.

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>>92942116
>and the inherently self-sacrificial nature of Americans

>>92942142

>what is World War II?
>what is the Moon Landing?
>what is the Civil War?
>what is the Civil Rights Act?
>what is the judicial right to protect the rights of the few against the desires of the many?

Wasn't Superman working for the government because they had the shrunken kryptonians as hostage and Superman also feared that they could use his rape baby with Wonder Woman in much the same way?

>>92941931
He doesn't. Since he was doing a Batman story he wrote Superman as an antagonist. He said that he wants to do a Superman story where Batman is the antagonist at some point.

>>92942116
Are you forgetting about Superman slapping jars for the WW2?

American way is basically life, liberty and the persuit of happiness

Frank admitted that he didn't like Superman because of his powers

>>92942188
You know that almost every country in the fuck planet was in a war right?

>>92941931
Because Miller is a hippy. Why do you think he is a comic artist? He lacks the skills to handle a real job. Math and science are the tools that helped mankind understand their world, not comics, video games, or cartoons.

>>92942199
Yes.

And even if you ignore that and just read DKR, he still has good reason to do what he did, he joined up because he didn't want the government to go after the superheroes (the government was gonna arrest superheroes and learn their secret identities because of Batman and Green Arrow's actions).

>>92942199

Then why doesn't Superman wreck the shot out of the people who are holding the weak and defenseless as hostages? He's literally a god who has committed his life to protecting people in just such a situation. He would fucking ruin anyone that would try to do that in a story written by someone who isn't belligerent towards that character.

>>92942244

The wars that I cited were wars fought not in self-interest but in the desire to be a force of good in the world. If we were only in WWII and the Civil War for inherently self-interested reasons, we would've only fought the pacific front and wouldn't've bothered with the emancipation proclamation respectively.

>>92941931
It's an alternate universe.

>>92942827

If it's an alternate universe that ignores the essential philosophical, moral and ideological underpinnings of the characters used in that alternate universe, why use those characters at all? Why not just write an entirely different book that addresses the arguments that you want to use in a way that doesn't disrupt, disregard and ignore what makes the characters interesting in the first place?

>>92941931
While Miller does hate Superman, the motivations for the fight where understandable.

It was less about Superman being a lapdog to the government and more Superman trying to stop a friend that is breaking a fuckton of laws.

Batman aspirations are for trainning the future generation so they can defend themselves, exactly where does "Big Brother aspirations" come in?

If you posted about any of the sequels to this series then you would have a point, Superman and Batman are trash in said incarnations, but not in DKR.

>>92942188
While I disagree that any of these display unusual levels of self-sacrifice, I can see your point of view in case of wars fought .
But Moon Landing? How the hell a couple of astronauts willing to risk their lives for science and personal glory translates to speculations about the exceptional nature of an entire nation?

>>92943660

Because it was a massive public works project that was done for mostly (gotta stick it to the Ruskies) altruistic reasons.

>>92944345
So Ruskies are equally altruistic and ready for self-sacrifice? Because they were the first to get a man in space, and it wasn't done for profit either.

>Roids vs SS+GOMAD

>>92941931
>fatman vs superman

>>92942333
You are an absolute retard. Stop reading comics and read a fucking book

>>92942188
>>what is World War II?
Something you guys had to be forced into and that you dedicated to fighting on the opposite fron to where all the atrocities were happening.

Then you opened prison camps for your own citizens, gave Nazis homes, and built a genocide machine that you dropped on a nation on the verge of surrendering just to see if it worked.

>>what is the Moon Landing?
The result of a decade-long dick-measuring contest with Russia.

>>what is the Civil War?
Half your population wanting to subjugate several races and then continuing to want that to this day despite losing the war.

>>what is the Civil Rights Act?
Something almost every white American railed against.

>>what is the judicial right to protect the rights of the few against the desires of the many?
Something entirely disregarded when it interferes with capitalism.

Fucking Americans are so dumb they live inside their own tourism ads. Do you think the Big Mac really comes out looking like it does on the teevee, too, Cletus?

>>92944448

Not to imply that other countries don't do altruistic shit, or that altruism is an inherently American quality, just that altruism is inherent to being an American. Cause yeah, the Russians were also altruistic in many of their aims. Not all of them obviously, but you know, ideally.

>>92944874

I'm referring to ideals and princples, which are often at odds with practice. The ideals of America are, as you rightly pointed out, very often placed against what we actually do.

You make good points, which are hard to argue against, but the heart of what I'm talking about is principles and ideals, not political realities. But yeah, you seriously do make good points especially when it comes to justice versus capitalism.

>>92944874
This, Americans have been and always will be entirely self-serving, its the product of a nation founded on individualism

>>92941931
Because he is a faggot.

>>92942281
Because he doesn't want to start a war.

>>92945224

Didn't want to start a war that he would end, single-handed, in seconds.

>>92942254
>Frank Miller is a hippy

kek
I have no idea where you came from, but please stay. /co/ needs hot political opinions like this as an alternative to endless /pol/ shitposting.

>>92945249
After killing how many people exactly?

>b-but he'd just kill the president
>and the vice president
>and the speaker of the house
>and so on

Believe me it won't end there.

>>92945160
Look, those ideals never existed, america has been a force of evil historically, those ideals are nothing more than propaganda to make the poor serve in wars, work and die for the political and economic elite.

>>92945289

I can't disagree with the political realities, but in the end, we're talking about comic books and comic book characters that can ignore those political realities which makes it possible to have Superman represent unmovable principles and ideals.

In the end, I don't think we're actually in disagreement (especially since I definitely agree with our princples used for propaganda and our interests being used to supplant our ideals) just that we're kinda talking past each other due to semantics.

>>92945289
America is not "evil" this isn't fucking Dungeons and Dragons. The USA is like all large nations on the geopolitical stage: sometimes it does fucked up shit, sometimes it does great shit, and likely never for the same reason twice. Granted, I'm not disagreeing that those ideals are basically propaganda (along with the whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" garbage we still feed society today), but to call a nation-state "evil" is just weird.

>>92945282

Superman is literally a god that can move nearly as fast as the Flash, who can move faster than the speed of light. Superman, if taken seriously, could totally dismantle the United States military in moments, without any casualties. Frank Miller doesn't take the character seriously, or respectfully, which is the entire crux of my argument against him and his treatment of the characters.

>>92941931
Miller doesn't hate Superman you just are fucking retarded.
Miller's TDK universe Supes is a good man of good principles who was forced to become a government lapdog to save his friends and fellow capes. It's more evident in the sequels but even in TDKR Superman helps Batman fake his death by not giving Batman up when he hears Batman's heartbeat with his Superhearing.

>>92945289
>america has been a force of evil historically
Every country has at some point

>>92945460

Dude, the scene with the nuke has Superman healing himself by absorbing and killing all life around him after he crashes into the ground. That's a pretty fucked up thing and is more endemic of a villain than a force for good, ignoring that he stuck up for Bruce in the end.

>>92945445
The government obviously had measures to fight him and easily could threaten his family and loved ones as well as the loved ones of other heroes. Also if he wrecks the whole US government what happens? He becomes emporer of the USA?

>>92942215
WW2 Japs deserved to be slapped

Are you forgetting that in the same era Batman was machinegunning japanese soldiers?

>>92945518
Pretty sure he just took the photosynthetic energy of the plants in the area.

>>92945435
>sometimes it does great shit
Like?

>>92941931
You saw the wisecrack video to huh?

>>92941931
>He doesn't worship him as a god that must mean he hates him.

>>92945518
He asked first.

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>>92942952
>It was less about Superman being a lapdog to the government and more Superman trying to stop a friend that is breaking a fuckton of laws.
This

Superman even lets him get away

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>>92946084
I Laughed

>>92942215
And that was good. Fuck Imperial Japan