Can someone explain why Babs is hated so much on /co/? I haven't

>>92876257
It's less a hatred for Barbara herself and more a dislike of the fact that DC decided to push an agenda with her in the last few years at the expense of some great representation (where the physically handicapped were concerned) and fun characters.

She spent years developing as Oracle; helping to train two new female characters, both of whom were fairly popular...and DC shoved all that aside and said "Yeah no she's Batgirl again; fuck the last couple decades of character development."

>>92876382
>>92876382
Additionally, there was also a mess where they started trying to retcon The Killing Joke, which in turn created its own mess.

Even *if* your stance on that story is that it's an ugly example of horrible treatment of women in comics; they really did a lemons-into-lemonade job in terms of developing Oracle, and ...wiping all of that out because 'this was icky and Barbara shouldn't have to face anything icky' rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

>>92876257
I liked her better as Oracle, and the other two Batgirls were vastly suprior to Babs.

I really hated it because Babs as Oracle was great. She seemed much more mature and one of the smartest minds of the DC universe.

And then...she just became an infant. She became this college aged smart ass who was there to constantly rub in everyone's faces that everyone should like her.

In fact, I got it, they turned Batgirl into Jean Grey!

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>>92876257
>Babsgirl
>Burnside babsgirl
>cool as Oracle.
No.

>>92876257
Because Cass and Steph were superior waifus and DC shit all over them to revert Babs back to Batgirl when she was a much better character as Oracle.

>>92876257
Making her Batgirl again is despised partially because it is seen as a regression of the character. Batgirl is like the female version of Robin. Just as Dick grew up and became Nightwing, Babs grew up and became Oracle.

Fans of her as Oracle liked how unique she was as a non-powered superhero with a disability. Fans of the other Batgirls hated that she was brought back because DC had fucked over Cass and Steph for years by then and it felt like they did so to bring back Barbara.

>>92876382
>>92876491
Well put.

>>92876257
She's the worst batgirl and was much better as Oracle.

>>92876257
Barbara was never worth a damn, honestly. No, not even as Oracle. As Batgirl, she was a novelty from a different time. As Oracle, she was a novelty for the modern era. A tool to be used by others, in and out of universe.

Then DC reverted her to Batgirl so she could once again be a tool, only this time for vapid bloggers who just want a "GURL POWA" character to latch onto, displacing a better written character in the process.

>>92876491
>horrible example of treating women.
Why the fuck this is an issue?
That part was supposed to fucking piss you off, if you were not in tears or had the urge to kill joker yourself for that, then you should stop reading comics, that was the whole purpose of that part.
Nowadays people think that you should hate villains because they are villains and not for them being shown as a monsters, and showing their acts it's the true way of building that.

>>92876805
It's dumb tho, you can't have a character like oracle that's disabled in a setting where magical cures and cybernetic limbs are so common place. It could've worked if Oracle was still a secret identity but anyone who was anyone knew that babs was oracle.

>>92876257
Well, she's a literal cuck for starters.

>>92876257
2 reasons
Perception
>>92876382
>>92876491
People think Batgirl of Burnside had a SJW agenda so they taught themselves to hate the series and by extension hate the character
And then you got characterfags, people who think that Cass is the only Batgirl that works.

>>92876257
Setting aside all the issues brought up in the thread, the Simone Babsgirl run was really shitty. For all /co/ bitches about the Burnside and current run, it is still way better than Simone's run.

>>92877075
It's a lateral move, really. Barbara's still a self-centered "genius" quipping away while fighting equally vapid and ridiculous criminals.

>>92876257
they're alright but nothin special

>>92876257
1) She's not out Batgirl, 95% of us grew up with Babs as Oracle

2) they've changed her personality twice in such radically polar opposite extremes that she's unrecognizable as a character to her Pre Crisis version

3) she's not drawn hot anymore, she's drawn not to offend, say what you will but her sex appeal was a big part of Batgirl's fandom

People take issue with her being Batgirl again because, aside from DC's poor treatment of her successors, her original adventures aren't really noteworthy. Getting crippled then retooled into Oracle was probably the best thing to happen to her, as it gave her a niche and skill set that kept her relevant in the DCU for years and defined her as being more than just another Bat sidekick.

Undoing all of that to sell her as THE Batgirl that happens to be super smart and good with computers to a new generation of readers has ironically made her more generic.

>>92876257
/co/ likes Barbara as Oracle.
/co/ does not like the current Barbara who is technically a 30-year old acting like an 18-year old.

>>92877064
There's also hate that the Burnside Babs could almost (not completely) be Stephanie. If it was written for her, people might have liked it more (since she is a dumb teenager, and not the "adult" that Babs used to be)

she feels like a transplant from modern Marvel Comics

>>92877075
I always felt like Simone shat the bed on purpose as a passive-aggressive move. We know she can write better than that, and she was one of the biggest proponents of Oracle and is pretty much responsible for her popularity.

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>>92877064
>And then you got characterfags, people who think that Cass is the only Batgirl that works.
me

>>92877808
Yeah, she went kind of off the rails for a year or so after New52 happened. Just look at the clusterfuck that was New52 Firestorm.

>>92877704
>/co/ likes Barbara as Oracle.
Speak for yourself. We have a few fans here, but most people who actually read Birds of Prey know Babs as Oracle is just as shitty as Babs as Batgirl, she just has a bigger status as the former.

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Obligatory

>>92876257

I just hate the never ending cycle they've put the character in now. She's basically become Dick prior to being Batman and then Dick in the New 52.

Simone tried but was just bogged down in just misery and more misery for Barbara where it became goddamn ridiculous (as were the original rogues she fought).

Then Burnside came along and while slightly better in some regards, it's what put Barbara into this cycle. Every arc now is basically, something something friends, something something guy she kind of likes, something something guy is a supervillain, she beats him, GIRL POWER!!! We're like on the second straight arc of this.

Then you put her next to her successors. Okay, somehow Stephanie Brown has progressed more as a character in the two years she's been reintroduced then Barbara has been since the New 52. Even if she's a crazy WILD CARD BITCHES character who's entire motivation is nuts. She at least has an actual character arc you can grasp onto.
.

What the fuck does Barbara have? And she's got two ongoings!! Yet both ongoings that have her feel like nothing. She's a shit protagonist and needs a new dynamic like Dick got.

I'm not saying cripple her again. I'm just saying she needs a new direction. I thought this globe trotting opening arc for Rebirth would lead to that, but now we're just back to the same exact shit we were with Burnside.

Make her a cop or something. Otherwise DC isn't doing any favors by republishing Cassandra or Stephanie's ongoings and showing superior products/story telling.

>>92877808

You could really tell when she she shat the bed on purpose. The only times she semi showed up to write was at the end with the mini "BoP" reunion, small parts of Future's End, and Nightwing/Oracle Convergence mini.

>>92876257
Barbara as Oracle is well-liked.
Despite being a bit of a cunt sometimes, she'd gone through tremendous growth over the years.
That was all reset and hasn't really come back in these almost six years.
Doesn't help that her books since the New 52 hit have consistently been garbage despite Babs Tarr's art elevating it for a time.
Cass and Stephanie each having well-liked runs as Batgirl is also a factor, and people were/are bitter about how badly every Batgirl got dicked over so "Batgirl" would be a redhead while the Robins (minus Tim) came through the reboot largely unscathed.

>>92877064

Both Cassandra and Stephanie had the luxury of their writers working around the shackles (for the most part).

It seems every writer who's handled Barbara since the New 52 feels mostly shackled by the limitations the editors or their bosses put on the character. Oh you might not see it at first but when the chains come on you see it.

I enjoy Cassandra most, and honestly her character is kind of better for ongoings, because Barbara works best being the supporting cast member. I do enjoy her along with Stephanie. But the harsh truth unless a writer gets to their version (which they never will) Barbara is gonna be a nothing.

Honest-to-God, Oracle shouldn't have even happened in the first place. I'm willing to rip up decades and decades of stories in the name of the simple fact that The Killing Joke SHOULD NOT BE CANON IN ANY WAY. It makes no sense for it to be canon. It screws around with Batman's relationship to the Joker in a way that simply cannot be reflected in any subsequent Batman comics. Fuck, at the end of TKJ Batman actually laughs at the Joker's joke. Batman NEVER laughs at the Joker. That should have tipped everyone off to the fact that it's out of continuity.

>>92878185
>>>/tumblr/

Why do people like Stephanie and Cass so much anyways

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>>92878244
cass is badass
see>>92877833

true heir to wayne

>>92878244
Stupid early-aughts comic book readers that can't let go. You know how Geoff Johns fags out over Barry Allen and Hal Jordan? These guys do the same thing over Steph and Cass and Tim.

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>>92878244
They're both comfy as fuck, in different ways.

>>92877007
It isn't dumb. Those cures are not common and they also often have unpredictable costs and side effects. Still, if she was turned into a cyborg, cured with super science or magic, it still would have been more interesting and less contrived than her going to South Africa to get a relatively mundane cure that is somehow good enough to have her back to free running across Gotham roofs after two years of training. A cyborg Batgirl or magic using Batgirl would have set her apart. She is just painfully generic now.

Babs has always been a worthless and pointless unlikeable character. It is disgusting that DC pretends like she was the first Batgirl and celebrates her anniversary as if it's the real one. And it's not even about prominence, they don't do that shit with Barry or Hal.

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>>92878275
>he thinks new equals good
FUCK letting go.

>>92877007
It's kind of silly because she doesn't actually need to be in the chair to be Oracle in-universe. She can just grow up and decide to do it. Her disability did mean something to a lot of readers, but it's not necessary for the story to work.

But because comic writers are hacks in order to be Oracle she NEEDS to be crippled because as you can see they can't help but keep her in a cape if she's able.

>>92878244
Cass because her early appearances and the first two years of her ongoing were really good.

Steph because everyone likes a giant fuckup like she was before becoming Batgirl, then as Batgirl her book was just generally enjoyable.
Although I'm personally kinda lukewarm on her BG book because she lost some more unique traits, like the fuckup stuff and being poor white trash.

Cass is the only Batgir that makes sense to me. She was fucking scary and never looked like a cosplay whore.
I mean, the whole Bat-theme is supposed to be about being scary. Steph and Barbara never did. With Cass, you could really believe she was gonna fuck you up.

>>92877007
They could have easily made her walk but keep her as Oracle.

>>92877808
I've never bought into this since her second BoP run right before Batgirl was EXACTLY as shitty, and Simone's way too in love with Barbara to make her terrible on purpose.

>>92878356
>Cass because her early appearances and the first two years of her ongoing were really good.
this, i dropped it around issue 22

when it started becoming just another superhero book with the loss of her "reading body language" and lack of communication thing because DEUS EX MACHINA HAHA RANDOM PSYCHIC MEETING it was time to stop reading

>>92878291
This one page manages to make them more likeable than Babs has ever been.

>>92878429
People REALLY overlook how fucking terrible that second creative team was.
Lots of Cass pining after hunky boys and generally uninteresting stories.

Third team was okay, minus Lazara (possibly the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read).

>>92878451
who were the people behind the first run? need me some more 10/10 content like that yes pls

>>92878243
No, just common sense.

Moore doesn't write stories in continuity. He doesn't care about continuity, he cares about telling good stories, but as a result he makes decisions with characters that don't FIT into their established continuity in shared universes. He did exactly the same thing with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", but DC was able to get away with that because it happened on the eve of Crisis on Infinite Earths, when continuity got rebooted anyway. Making The Killing Joke canon was a mistake. It's always been a mistake.

>>92878451

The problem with Horrocks was he was burdened with shit. He did have a few good moments sprinkled across his run.

But I agree. His run began meh before it got better. Then editorial reared its head and he just quit.

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>>92878451
Remember when Cassandra Cain became a villain and became fluent in Navajo?

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>>92878244

For Stephanie, it's her brutal honesty and the fact she fucks up a lot. But I'll be damned if you can't help but root for her at times since that determination she has to keep on trucking.

>>92878429
The writers got lazy and wanted to nerf her while making her able to talk. That said, it got better after she got her abilities back. Then One Year Later turned her into shit and she never recovered. Orphan is alright but she ain't the old Cass.

>>92878465
Damion Scott, Scott Peterson

Babs is a psycho bitch who is unrelatable to men or any sane woman. Remember when she said she was attracted to killer moth because he sounded like a principle and she wanted to be spanked?

>>92878531
thanks

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For Cassandra, it's she was built to be a tank but has the heart of a flower. Unlike the others her tragedy is she's taken a life and is doing everything she has with all her knowledge to twist that all into something more. To be a hero, not a killer.

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>>92878531
>Damion Scott
>Notable works
> How to Draw Hip-Hop

wot

didn't see this coming at all

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>>92878569
>That face
What were they going for here? A mix of anime and Elmer Fudd?

>Steph and Cass are regulars again
>it's goddamn terrible
I knew it would happen, yet I asked anyway.

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>>92878569
fucking hell, that stitched mouth thing always looked fucking terrifying

wish they'd had a scene of her sewing it herself putting meaning behind it somewhere

>>92878594
kids have chubby cheeks man

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>>92878531

Kelly Puckett wrote the crux of it. Peterson did a few co-write a few scripts here and there. Also, Chuck Dixon did a few guest spots usually whenever Stephanie showed up.

>>92878597
Better than Babsgirl

They should bring Miller back to save Steph with at least a mini. Recycling writers is in now anyway.

>>92878658
I like Hope Larson, but I knew she'd be terrible at cape stuff.

I don't know why she even took the job or who thought tapping her for it was a good idea, but that book is build on poor decisions.

>>92878602
Cass was always supposed to be intimidating and the writers did a good job of selling it. She scared Bruce because even he thought she was too dedicated to the mission. It's why so many fans were pissed when editorial mandate made her a murderous villain in One Year Later.

>>92878597
I'm willing to give Steph's team-up with Anarky a chance.

>>92878575
WHAT DA FUG

http://www.cbr.com/conversing-on-comics-with-damion-scott/
http://www.mosh0110.com/

The dude splits time between New York and Japan, living the dream basically. Although he's totally out of comics, doing like legit artwork for an art studio, as well as graffiti stuff or idk.

Going from that god tier 2 year run on Batgirl to just completely stopping comics. Man...

>>92878701
Gonna be awkward when Anarky is revealed as the General.. again.

>>92878733
Not completely.

Out of nowhere he did some All New Ghost Rider issues.

>>92878686

Valentine can write a good Stephanie and Cassandra. I'm kind of curious what her original script was before DC had to bail on it.

>>92878758
Oh, I forgot that Tec also made Batwoman incredibly lame.

>>92878763
and 1 issue of deadpool, a handful of spiderman since it was his favorite character growing up, etc

but i mean he's out of the game, doing issues here and there doesn't count

i guess japan is worth it for him

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>>92876257
BEST BATGIRL

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>>92878694

>>92878774
Was Valentine gonna be on Batgirl?

Tim is fucking lame and I'm glad he's banished to comics hell with Orpheus and Sasha Bordeaux.

>>92878799

No the recent fill-in on Tec. She was still given a credit, but Tynion and another rewrote the script entirely.

>>92878824
Oh, weak.
Way to nurture newer talent, DC.

>Scott Peterson goes from winnning an Eisner with Damion Scott for Batman Black and White to writing drivel like this:

Scholastic Reader Level 3: Batman #8: The Story Of Batman (Scholastic, 2006).
Disney Classic Cartoon Tales (Disney Press, 2005).
Disney Out of This World Cartoon Tales (Disney Press, 2005).
Disney Splashtacular Cartoon Tales (Disney Press, 2006).
Disney Royally Enchanted Cartoon Tales (Disney Press, 2006).
"Disney Phineas and Ferb: Guide To Life" (Disney Press, 2011).

Scooby-Doo #109, 111, 118, 136-137 (DC Comics, 2006–2008).

Does Batgirl kill quality talent or what the hell is going on here?

>Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damien, babs, orphan, Kate, Luke, Duke(Literally just Luke without the iron man suit), Stephanie, Blue jay, Gotham girl
How many sidekicks does Bruce need??

>>92878820
>Sasha Bordeaux.

Wasn't she in Rebirth WW at the start?

>>92878843
Hey a guys gotta eat.

>>92878843

No it makes you leave mainstream comics or the industry entirely. Look at Puckett, Miller, Horrocks, and Gabrych. Each got fed up and left mainstream to do their own thing either in indie comics, video games, movies, or TV.

>>92878878
if you honestly had the chance to be a comics book writer/artist/letterer/editor or anything in the industry...BUT you would have to work on Disney Royalty and Phineas and Ferb's comic book adaptationsfor a decade...

Would you agree to it?

>>92878906
To be fair Miller was already a TV guy and still did Smallville S11 before he left DC

>>92878916
Some people are good at low key work. Look at Sholly Fisch. He's fucking great, as seen on Morrison's Action backups but just likes doing the Looney Tunes and Scooby Doo books for whatever reason.

>>92878916
Poorly chosen example. I love Phineas & Ferb and I'd jump at the chance to write comics that spun off the show, I bet it would be a blast.

>>92878987
>Poorly chosen example.
i literally took it from >>92878843

>>92878629
The art reminds me of Gorillaz.

>>92878322
>he doesn't store his pre-war cash in the bathtub
laughingncrgirls.jpg

>>92876257
Because she's only ever worthwhile in any fashion as Oracle

Reverting Barbara to Batgirl is so fucking boring. As Oracle, she had her own niche where she could be of use. She was like the Shadow Broker for superheroes (and with a much better reveal mystery to boot). If a hero needed information, equipment, supplies, anything, you called up Oracle, and she'd hook you up. As Batgirl, she's just another street level cape.

>>92878419
>I mean, the whole Bat-theme is supposed to be about being scary.
Except, bats aren't scary.

>>92878244
Cass is like tailor-made to hit /co/'s fetishes.

>asian
>ninja
>autistic
>fit
>damaged
>better than Batman

She had a well written run and everything, but I think people overrate how good she was on account of waifism.

Because Babs as Batgirl is a combination of boring and obnoxious.

>>92878303
To be fair, DC's 50 year collection for Batgirl did include Betty Kane stories.

>>92876919
If you actually think barbara was a fleshed out characters with a sense of agency in the killing joke and not just a prop you're straight up delusional

>>92876257
Did they ever explain how Babs went from an adult to a bratty teenager in the Burnside comic?