The truth about comic sales.

>>92788023
Okay, there have been a few really good articles on this, as well as some in depth youtube videos.

The diversity part has been mishandled. The characters are just replacing existing heroes, and taking over in a more competent way, which makes them less boring.

The other issue is that Marvel isn't supporting their new releases with any significant marketing budget. Ms. Marvel is to blame for this, as she did well on her own, (and to a lesser extend Miles Morales did too,) so Disney thinks that all new properties can start that way.

Marvel has been sidelining or completely altering their original heroes, to the point where they're unrecognizable, which has angered old fans in an attempt to get new ones. But the new fans aren't staying.

On top of that, Marvel's writers are being very unprofessional on twitter and social media.

But the biggest issue that Marvel has is that it is releasing too many books. There are so many, that people can't afford to buy even a 3rd of them with a full paycheck. And as a result, people aren't trying new things.

Does anyone have that page where of all things the Spongebob comic explains why the comic book industry is failing and places all the blame on Diamond?

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>>92788129
To each point as I read them.

I can understand the creation of original characters with original stories or stories (such as X-men) where new characters can easily be brought in. No issue with this, see it all the time with graphic novels. So glad we are on the same page on this.

>The other issue is that Marvel isn't supporting their new releases with any significant marketing budget. Ms. Marvel is to blame for this, as she did well on her own, (and to a lesser extend Miles Morales did too,) so Disney thinks that all new properties can start that way.
Ok ty for that.

>Marvel has been sidelining or completely altering their original heroes, to the point where they're unrecognizable, which has angered old fans in an attempt to get new ones. But the new fans aren't staying.
I'd say this is my biggest contempt and I'm sure most fans agree. I can not understand why a corporation would so blindly refuse to acknowledge why this simple portion would cause disdain within their target audiences.
Really this is the only part I'd think that is remotely conspiracy theory.

>>92788129
>But the biggest issue that Marvel has is that it is releasing too many books. There are so many, that people can't afford to buy even a 3rd of them with a full paycheck. And as a result, people aren't trying new things.
At 8 dollars a pop on average times twenty+ issues per release I'd agree this would be nearly impossible to keep up with.

Well thanks for some clarification, i'll try to use these points to refine my personal research on the subject.

>>92788236
>places all the blame on diamond
As well they should

>>92788023
Sales are falling because the writing is shit.

Marvel would rather sever their penis with a spoon than admit this. A lot of this falls on Perlmutter gutting editorial in 2012 and DC snapping up new talent. Those that are left are those way past their prime and too spread out like Bendis, those who've never written a comic before like Coates, those who put shock value over stories like Spencer and legitimately terrible writers like Slott.

Though another factor is that the way people buy comics are changing. More people are buying Trades than floppies, and digital suppliers like comixology dont release their numbers. The picture of the Industry's actual sales is uncertain because we get our info from Diamond's (Who have a monopoly on physical distribution) increasingly outdated system.

>Is the sales a fluke, did they actually ostracize their fan base, or is the market just dying with the mass pirating of product?
this will always be their argument because it absolves the industry from producing bad products. People buy things they like, even if they have an illegal download version they still want a real copy.
Pirating tends to boost sales because it introduces new people to the product without demanding a certain amount of money up front in order to catch up to whats currently going on in the story.

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>>92788023
>I notice when I try to do research on the subject Marvel & (((Disney))) desperately try to hide that diversity isn't the cause of their comic book sales.
Actually, Marvel straight out declared that diversity IS why their comics are doing poorly. They blamed it on the readers not wanting diversity.

Marvel has a lot of issues
a) repeated price rises way beyond average wage increases
b) few convenient ways to get comics (either buy online or diamond/LCS)
c) lack of support for TPBs; they charge a lot more because they want people to buy floppies instead
d) event fatigue from constant massive crossovers
e) rebooting all the time for those #1 issue boosts
f) flooding niches. Every time they find something that works, they immediately flood it with too many books.
g) abuse of their customers. Twitter and tumblr rants, statements as mentioned above that readers are at fault for not buying diversity, etc
h) lack of good writers, artists and editors.
i) more efficient forms of media are available. A 40 dollar game will bring you more entertainment time than 10x $4 comics

>Is the sales a fluke, did they actually ostracize their fan base, or is the market just dying with the mass pirating of product?
this is actually an interesting point, the pirating bit. You see, Marvel has had a long time strategy where they believe that a book that angers fans is better than a book that is mediocre. So angry fans = money, because they wanna see how it goes.

Now some people think that people have just become worn out by that. Been too angry too long and just given up. But given our threads on bad comics like America, I think it's more likely that instead of buying a bad comic, people will just pirate it. Why pay for something you don't like?

>>92788023
It's really unfair to use ms marvel as you're strawman for this as she's one of the legacy characters who is not indiciative of the stupid pandering diversity crap you're after, better. To use Riri from the new Iron man or femThor for that

>>92788023
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/

http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

Tl;dr horrible business practices like variants, having too many books, LAUNCHING too many books (avg 6 a month from Oct 2015 to Feb 2017), trying to have all movie characters support 2 books, etc

>reminder that 20k in sales is now the new 100k

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>>92788236

>>92788452
Even femthor wasn't so bad after a while. Nowadays decent enough

Miles after Ultimate, Riri, Nadia Pym, ChoHulk are the worst offenders. ChoHulk isn't too bad in his own book, but Cho was fine before the Hulk thing. Dunno why changed him

>>92788471
Nah not that bad yet. 70k sales for big series like Spider-man was abysmal. 30-35k would be the new 100k

>>92788452
>femThor
She was also a big success

Everything after other than Laura did worse though

>>92788305
Slott is actually good when he has an editor that can say fuck no that is stupid.

Has to be kept on a leash. His early ASM work was good, his MA and Shulkie was godlike.

>>92788023
comics got boring.
i support non boring comics.

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>>92788023
>/po/ here,

You need to go back to your containment board.

But first read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/
https://archive.is/rCii1

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>>92788023
>(((Disney)))
Go back there.

>>92788305
>>92788416
>>92788465
Thanks for the input, you guys have been most helpful.

>>92788710
Fuck off Shill, you know Disney is owned by Jews.

>>92788682
I had a question about comics, I came to the comics board. It would be shitposting to put this on /pol/, I haven't had the thread deleted or myself b& so guess what, I did the right thing.
Intelligent discussions are allowed across any board as long as they are topic appropriate.

TY for your input though I will take a look.

>>92788452
>she's one of the legacy characters who is not indiciative of the stupid pandering diversity crap you're after, better.
She literally is, a brown, muslim, possibly lesbian female superhero that replaced a straight white female.

It's not strawman, it just seems that way because you disagree.


Anyways, thanks all for various view points.
I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.

To slightly modiify topic, what graphic novel artist are on the up and up?
All I have to go on is what local businesses sell and it's all owned by Disney for the most part.

>>92789007
>possibly lesbian
How? From how she flat out told a bisexual character that she was straight?
Also
>carol
>straight
She knocked up her girlfriend Spider-woman

>>92788023
>is from /pol/ - Neo-Nazi Shitheads
>claims to "like" the X-Men

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>>92789007
>Shill
Who's shilling? You're the cuck.
>Jews own Disney
But most people aren't raging anti-semites, you fucking weiner.

>>92789007
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case.
Good. Now fuck off.

>>92788023
It's 100% because of politics.

Non-white characters have been commonplace and popular since the 70s, so that's clearly not the issue.

>>92789007
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.

It's just a few books a few heroes that have this.
Comics have a whole variety of non cape titles that you could potentially enjoy
DC Rebirth has been solid for the most part and if you don't find that entertaining you can try out other publishers and go for writers you know you can trust.

>>92789540
but you literally are a cuck

you can't just call someone a word without considering its meaning

>>92789007
You will not be missed.

>>92789632
He can't read non-cape titles, those have even BIGGER chances of seeing minorities.

>>92789007
>that replaced a straight white female.
Technically only the mantle.
Carol didn't die or anything she just became Captain Marvel since Mar-Vell has been dead for years
I understand your frustration but please if you're going to complain about stuff on /co/ without looking like a clueless individual consider this
as stuff that you should avoid complaining about since it just signals that one who complains about this stuff knows barely anything about comics

1. Are they offended by Green Arrow's liberalism?
2. Are they using examples that are years/months old and are outdated (bonus if it's from a cancelled book)?
3. Are they using a fucking non canon Elseworld as an example?
4. Do they cite companies as a whole or writers/editors specifically?
5. Do they refuse to acknowledge that comics have been political in the past?
6. Do they assume "Western comics are dead/ruined forever" just because some cape books are doing overly preachy social justice crap?

Not trying to be rude just pointing things out

>>92789007
>"Hey guys Gamer Girl here!"

We're really glad you found a group that makes you feel like you belong but it's not becoming to label yourself at the beginning of a conversation.

You can be sick of marvel's retarded diversity stunts without having to state your partisan lust. Nuance can be a neat little experience if you give it a shot.

>>92789007
I would highly recommend checking out The Unfunnies by Mark Millar. Lots of conservative values that I'm sure you will enjoy

I wish Mar-Vell would come back. I wish legacy characters weren't even a thing.

>>92789862
Anon, don't pull that shit.
I know that you don't like /pol/ and you see the recent culture wars as the decline of this board but there's reason to suggest him shit when OP here just wants to get some recommendations and information

>>92789877
> legacy characters weren't even a thing
>No Wally West
>No Zatanna
>No Hal Jordan
>No Barry Allen
>No BuckyCap

>>92788023
Marvel and DC have no interest in showing clear figures about sales, and the digital comics market is only an estimate so it's really all up in the air.

>>92789917
OP wants attention for being from /pol/ more, so if he wants to be a little asshole, then might as well treat him like one. He didn't ask for recommendations, he only asked for information to fuel his culture war.

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>>92789917
Well you can't deny that Millar does shill his values in that book.

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>>92789007
Go read Cerebus the Aardvark, one of the most important and influential comic books of all time. The author is very red-pilled, possibly even black-pilled.

>>92789917
I don't know what you are talking about. I'm just suggesting quality books here.

>>92789945
I wish they weren't a thing in Marvel I guess. Buckycap sucks, I only want Steve to be Captain America.

>>92790009
>That very eloquently written slippery slope fallacy

>>92790274
Fantasy? Dogs and cats are kept inside people's houses RIGHT NOW.

>>92790274
The slippery slope fallacy isn't actually a fallacy if you look at real life.

>>92788682
The guy said he was from /po/ not /pol/. Big difference.

>>92789007
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.

There's plenty of good political comics out there, cape and non.

Read Transmetropolitan. Read Ex Machina.

Read the current run of Captain America. The writer may be a IRL liberal, but he pisses off SJWs like no one else, and gives the fascist side genuine, convincing arguments instead of strawmen.

>>92789007
You should totally check out Sam Humphries Our Love is Real. It's about a man who believes in the traditional values of the male/female relationship fighting against a degenerate society.

>>92790298
>The slippery slope fallacy isn't actually a fallacy if you look through the narrow scope of anecdotal evidence

Sure.

>>92790295
>Dogs and cats are kept inside people's houses RIGHT NOW.

And there are logical reasons for this before you even get close to "the fall of western civilization".

>>92789518
He said he's from /po/ idiot.

>>92790395
>And there are logical reasons for this before you even get close to "the fall of western civilization".
Hey, if OP thinks that letting immigrants into our countries and letting transsexuals into our bathrooms will lead to the fall of western civilization, then why not letting in housepets too?

It's the perfect comic for them.

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>>92790009
If you're going to recommend Cerebus recommend at least this chart

>>92788023
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/

>>92789945
>>No BuckyCap

BuckyCap is mediocre, FalCap is far superior.

Hey OP, can you do us a favor?
If you're going to complain about stuff in comics at /pol/ please stop cherrypicking the same old images from years ago

>>92790494
No, I think for Anon that chart should be reversed.

>>92790519
>FalCap
>Superior
Nigga, Spencer's Sam Wilson comics are even more politically hamfisted than his Steve Rogers ongoing
The Bombshells and Immigration issues being the two glaring examples

>>92790298

A slippery slope is when you claim that we should not do x (x being a perfectly benign or beneficial thing) because it opens the possibility for y (y being a blatantly negative thing).

"Sorry we can't stop those men from raping your daughter and killing you because that would eventually lead to an oppressive and absolute tyranny. The fact that I acknowledged that it's happening has probably doomed us all"

That would be a slippery slope.

Cause and effect are very real however and it's important to analyze every step you take.

>>92790488
Sim's a Jew Muslim though. Maybe just up to Form & Void?

>>92790577
I think you should read the comic because that quality line has nothing to do with politics.

>>92790395
>>92790395
As soon as gay marriage got legalized in America all the other freaks came out of the woodworks. Not just the trannies but the "non-binaries" and their hundreds of made up genders and preferences that they're trying to force the rest of the population to accept.

>>92790627
Sim's a Christian Jew Muslim.
All three at once because he thought out a way to make a unified Abrahamic religion in his head

>>92790637
I'm saying Anon's a shit and deserves shit.

>>92790667
>As soon as

No you just live under a rock.

>>92788498

I don't understand why they don't team Cho up with Herc again. Does Pak not want to write it?

They have a great dynamic. Did it not sell?

>>92790627
/pol/ has decided that #NotAll Jews and Muslims are bad, so it's okay to like the ones that Trump likes.

A bigger issue would be that the author is Canadian.

>>92790673
It doesn't matter anyway because OP lacks the willpower to read something as long and complex as Cerebus.

>>92788023
It's many factors
-Too many Diversity characters at the same time and not many written well. It's okay to have some diversity (look at X-Men) but Marvel went overboard and alienated their fanbase. Steve Rogers as Hydra sold more than Sam Wilson. Kampala started off interesting but Marvel mishandles her popularity and put her in Avengers/Champions and constant events. And no one wants Mosaic. And then you have America...
-Too many number #1s and relaunches.
-Too many Events (and said events are usually terrible) interrupting books.
-boring creative teams (Slott is still on Amazing Spider-Man and will never leave)
-prices too expensive. Paying $5-6 bucks for a book is annoying. But then you have $10 annuals where they don't even feel like they are worth the price
-books no one asked for (Mosaic, Solo)
-disguised minis because Marvel is too afraid to admit their minis (Slapstick)
-literally Forcing retailers to pay for books they did not order because Marvel shipped it to them and is making them pay for said book (Mosiac). This causes damage to LCSs who in turn get annoyed at them.
-too many books for people to choose from
-movie synergy/influence aka "Look how awesome those Inhumans are! So much better than those smelly X-Men!"

>>92790673
Anon /pol/ isn't a place of shitty people.
It's just full of passionate people who just jump to conclusions
At least OP is willing to learn from this board and actually wants a better understanding of comics which makes him better than a good number of /pol/ users

>>92789007

>Replaced

Inly bexause Carol got a promotion. You can still read Carol's books, she's fucking EVERYWHERE.

>>92790756
>OP
>open mind
>"I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case."

>>92789007
>She literally is, a brown, muslim, possibly lesbian female superhero that replaced a straight white female.

For some reason people around here give her a pass.

I mean, if you read the first time she met wolverine...and thought 'this is good and i want to continue reading this comic' i don't know what to say

>>92790756
>Anon /pol/ isn't a place of shitty people
>He honestly believes this
If I could go back in time and kill Moot before he reinstated /r9k/ and created /pol/, I would absolutely take the first-degree murder charges for the team.

>>92790212

No

>>92790519

What, you mean for the like six issues before Slencer got his mutts on him? You're still wrong, Brubaker's run is Primo A+ Cap material whether Bucky or Steve, but I could respect that opinion. But post Spencer? Fuck no.

I love the idea of Captain Falcon but the execution has been shit.

>>92790756
>better understanding of comics which makes him better than a good number of /pol/ users
If someone comes to /co/ and asks for recs I will gladly give them, but if someone comes in shitting on characters they've never read for dumb reasons then they can fuck off.

>>92790818
So anyone who decided they don't like something doesn't have an open mind? Wouldn't that include you?

>>92790756
>/pol/ isn't a place of shitty people.
>passionate people who just jump to conclusions
ah
just like terrorists.

>>92789007
stop

writing

like

this

you

nigger

faggot

>>92790708
Not the /pol/ack but he's right. I don't ever recall hearing anything about trannies, gender fluidness, etc. until these past couple of years. I'm 32 years old and I had not idea about trannies until a few years ago, that one tranny character in Silence of the Lambs was my first exposure but for the longest time I just thought he changed his genitals and was just a guy with a pussy cause he's supposed to be a total freak.

>>92790852
I've never been to /pol/ but most of the time people who spend all their time bitching about it are way worse than they are. OP made a reasonable request for more information and people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board.

>>92790893
There's a little difference of scale. I don't like a board, they don't like an entire medium.

Well, actually, they don't like a few titles at Marvel and DC. Based on hearsay, not on actually opening them up and trying them. They're not even aware that the rest of the medium exists.

>>92790922
Stop

Forcing

Your

Dumb

Meme

>>92790935

Then you also live under a rock.

My cousin went FtM in like 2002 and he's far, FAR from the first. The rights movments for this shit ALONE date back to the 70s.

>>92790956

That's not true though, the thread didn't jump on him until he acted retarded

That may have been in case he really was from /po/ though.

>>92790956
>people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board.
And the parts where OP started posting /pol/ memes (Oh noes, DA JOOZ!) and calling people shills.

And the part where OP decided that they won't read any comics at all because Ms. Marvel's presence in comics saddens and disheartens them.

>>92790956
>OP made a reasonable request for more information and people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board.

People treat him as he deserves because he just wanted to get fuel for his fights and wanted to use a medium we're actually passionate about as his new tool.

>>92790956
>why are you guys mad that someone is talking shit about stuff they've never read

>>92791063
>posting /pol/ memes (Oh noes, DA JOOZ!)

Not even a /pol/ meme. That was a thing on this site before /pol/ existed

> and calling people shills.

Not sure but I think this one started on /v/

>>92788023
Papercrafts and origami??

>>92790935
>32 years old
Ah, you're just a kid then.

I first heard of LGBT* in the nineties, but I've been aware of T issues since the Stonewall riots.

>>92791034
That's the funny part. They realized trannies already had their rights so all they could do was push for bathroom access, which if they could pass they already had. They jumped on the TQ in LGBTQ once regular gay people got their way. But these people already have their basic rights, so all they can do is make problems up or bring up social issues that can't be fixed with legislation.

>>92791056
>>92791063
>>92791073
>>92791098


Every day on /co/ people complain about the same things OP complained about but suddenly it's a problem when someone from /pol/ does it

>>92791181
This.

>>92791181
I also complain when people shit on things that they haven't read, even if it's not just because the person is brown.

>>92790956
How long have you been on the boards in general?
If you accept /pol/'s persistent cross-boarding to be the norm than I can see the backlash appearing disproportionate. However, there was a time where we had less generals and you could talk about a show you like without having to discuss to what level it was racist or degenerate. If you consider those times to be the better state of being, then anyone insisting on inserting their politics/group identity into a context where it's not crucially relevant would sensibly be met with rejection.

>>92791123
Why are you bothering me with that irrelevant blather?

I'm correcting your mistaken assumption about why people don't like the OP. It doesn't matter if they're posting /v/ shit or /pol/ shit because they're still posting shit.

>>92791181
Yeah those people complaining about the same things are also shits and a problem.

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>>92788416
>They blamed it on the readers not wanting diversity.
This was just Marvel deflecting, blaming their audience for being too old fashioned and set in our ways. It was just another way for them to claim more progressive points, "our comics are too progressive for the backwards market" bullshit.

Marvel's diversity is a symptom, not the disease. The real issues are shit writing and shit art, shitty to non-existent editorial and bad business practices all around, going straight to the top. Marvel will never admit it, because it's easier to blame DC and their own audience than to take a good long look at themselves and acknowledge why they're failing.

Your post is on point, though, particularly in how Marvel isn't adapting to an evolving sales market. Marvel's trying to bleed the speculator's market for everything they've got, and that market was artificially created to begin with thanks to Marvel's business practices from the early 90s. Constant #1s, event fatigue, over-saturation, inflated pricing, an overall lack of professionalism, these are all serious issues that go well beyond simple "our readers are trogs that can't handle diversity". Marvel needs to acknowledge that, but they won't.

>>92791181
Any time someone says "I don't like Ms. Marvel, therefore I won't read any comics at all", they deserve to be mocked.

Adding /pol/ memes to their posts is just the icing on the cake, showing that they're just pushing an agenda instead of actually being passionate about quality.

>>92791220
In those days the Marvel writers weren't beating you over the head with identity politics. What is everyone supposed to do, pretend it isn't happening?

>>92791348
Marvel's beaten people over the head with politics since they made Captain America, or Spider-Man if you really want to ignore that.

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>>92788023
The truth is American comic books have been competing with manga ever since Toonami popularized the medium, and they are on the fast track to disappearing the moment comic book movies hit their crash (and it's going to happen considering DC's movie track record and Marvel either finishing up or people leaving once they realize their big Infinity series is a tired mess).
It's no surprise that the only two significant comic book companies are Marvel and DC. Marvel caters to a brand new demographic that doesn't even care about comic books while their former dedicated fanbase are leaving in droves and/or growing up and not caring about their favorite characters (even though many of them have been killed off or are a former shell of what they used to be). Meanwhile, DC has essentially turned Batman into their Sonic the Hedgehog, making three theatrical movies involving him and his universe last year, all of which were terrible, embarrassing, or both. Image is dead, as is Top Cow, and most artists are opting for doing webcomics instead, preserving their IP as their own.
Meanwhile, this all started when people realized they could get the alternative from manga; a medium that gives you more stories for your money (I did the math, and one volume of a comic book having six issues in one book costs double the amount of a manga that may have 8-10 stories for up to $4-6 less) no ads unless they are all concentrated in the back of the manga, if any, and the only downside is most manga is in black and white. That's it.

Overall, the diversity bullshit Marvel and to a lesser extent DC are doing is a last ditch effort to win back any audience, and it will bite them in the ass in the end. Pic related; just one of their many failed ways to even try to compete.

>>92790727
The official story is that they wanted to do something different with Hulk, because they felt the same Bruce stories were getting stale. They already knew they wanted to change things up with a different character in the role, and Cho was brought up as a character to use.

It's actually one of the few Marvel diversity legacies that makes sense, and in his own book was handled pretty well, even if it wasn't exactly needed for either Cho or Hulk. It's his appearances in other books, mostly Champions, that are fucking awful. Though, to be fair, everyone's garbage in Champions.

>>92791453
I said identity politics though. Main thing that comes close is X-Men and unlike OP I always thought they were lame

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>>92788023
>>92791483
Pic related, again; another poor attempt.

>>92791181
>>92791198
Because there are sensible reasons to dislike that thing. However when you must announce your faction as if it should supersede your personal insight, people are going to give you shit.

it's
(OP)
>I love trite drama and would like to bastardize your interests for the sake of said drama.

vs
/co/
>what a shame that our interest is being bastardized for trite drama, how best do we rescue it from said drama?

>>92791483
It's not the 00s anymore, the manga market is dead anon.

>>92791483
Manga hasn't been dominating comics for a long time, Anon.

>>92789007
>Fuck off Shill, you know Disney is owned by Jews.

lol super hero comics were written by Jews long before Marvel.

>>92791483
>Image is dead
No, it's not.
>as is Top Cow,
Top Cow _is_ Image. Did you mean Dark Horse?

Fuck off, ignoramus.

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>>92791495
>tfw no more lady hellbender

>>92791565
>>92791527
Not him
One Piece alone sells more than comics ever were lately
Manga has a bigger online presence and more active community than comics

>>92791604
Wait, I worded that poorly
One Piece alone sells more than most comics combined lately
It's already the third best selling comic out there and has taken Spider-Man's spot

>>92791604
One Piece also sells more than manga ever were. It's the most popular comic in the world, it doesn't represent either side.

Manga has a big presence online, where 99% of it is read for free by pirates. That means absolutely nothing. They might as well be webcomics. You're determining that manga dominates comics because of two factors that don't actually reflect reality for the medium at all.

>>92791514
>trade an $7-9 volume manga with more chapters and a hell of a lot more re-readability than a $3 single issue of a gimmicky reboot.
>LCS owner expected this to be a huge success.
This isn't even clever business sense, this is just stupid. Donating your old Manga to a library would have been a smarter decision.

>>92791348
No, I never implied that. It's perfectly reasonable to attack marvel for the stupid shit they do.

It is not reasonable then insert 100 unrelated issues into discussions that have nothing to do with marvel because you're incapable of taking interest in anything outside of your group's agenda.

>>92788023
The TL;DR is something like this:
Killer combo:
>change legacy heroes (spiderman IS peter, Tony Stark IS Ironman, etc),
>add minority characters
>have new characters take the mantle in a foced way
that would be enough to doom the company, but then they went full nelson
>recton shit, constantly, they didn't even follow their new plotline
>poor, unedited, unsupervised or just plain bad writing
>characters acting out of character
>add political/social issues/propaganda in fucking comics
>drop the quality of the writing, and complaining that misoginy/white supremasy was the reason the sales drop, basically using their minority characters as anti-critic shields
and one you have this shit ingredients, lets make an even bigger shit stew
>constant events that affect every book, require you to buy series you are not following to know what the fuck is going on (not just tie-ins anymore) fucking up the continuity of some good books like Ms Marvel (oppinions)
>constant re-launhing titles for that 1st issue boost
This TL;DR got too long but is the shortest list I can think of.
Wait I can think of a shorter version: Bendis.

>>92788023
>>92789518
> is from /pol/ - Neo-Nazi Shitheads
> claims to "like" the X-Men

The X-Men were an analogy for the civil rights movement, created by Jack Kirby, a Jew.

Not sure how he resolves that contradiction for himself.

>>92791653
To be honest, my local library have more manga than western comics.
The manga side is always more popular and has more people reading there.

>>92791161
I mean to be fair, a lot of the movement's goals ARE about social acceptance, and that bathroom access was not always given when their status was discovered, and there are issues about firing them for it etc.

But I'll agree it's not really the same as the Civil Rights or even Gay Rights movements.

>>92791584
>Top Cow _is_ Image.
Which is why I added them both in the sentence, because a gimmicky, going to be dead, company thought it could handle another subset. Also,
>Image isn't dead
When you go to a comic book store and have to ask them to order a comic because they alone don't bother ordering them for potential customers, then yes, the company is dead.

>>92791495

But where's Herc? Why has Cho abandoned his bestie?

>>92791838
>buying floppies
Gross.

>>92791653
But /co/ storytimes comics on a regular basis.
Readcomiconline is now a thing
Comics still don't have an online presence

>>92791969
You think /co/ storytimes are equivalent to finding any manga you want scanned and translated for free on a dozen different websites? The ease of access for pirating manga is literally just googling the title. There's only a couple places to get comics online, and they're much less accessible to those who aren't dedicated. Manga has an online presence that depends entirely on having a huge catalogue online for free at any given moment, almost none of it involves buying manga at all.

>>92791838
>Which is why I added them both in the sentence, because a gimmicky, going to be dead, company thought it could handle another subset.
Of because you thought they were separate companies.

>Marvel is dead, as is DC.
Would anybody reading this think that DC is a subset of Marvel?

You're such a weak liar.

>>92792085

Also Barnes and Noble's manga section fucking dwarfs their comics section, at least at all three locations in my town.

>>92788023
It's not diversity that's the cause. It's how Marvel handles things that's the cause, because Marvel's stuff has been going down the drain quality-wise even before they introduced all the diversity push. Look up Spider-Man One More Day.

Usually with Marvel in the past 10 years they handle things like this:

-Something is a success and gets attention.
-Take whatever might've made it successful and milk it to death in a short time.
-Take snarky shots at the fans that complain, or be dismissive.

For example, Civil War by Millar is a sales success. So then they milk the hero vs hero thing to death by doing Avengers vs X-Men, AXIS, Civil War II, and Inhumans vs X-Men. People complain about those comics, they get ignored or snarked at.

In your diversity example it goes like this: Miles Morales and Ms. Marvel got better-than-expected sales and attention. Marvel proceeds to approve more replacment character stories because it gets them attention and maybe sales, so you have Falcon becoming the new Captain America, Jane Foster becoming Thor, X-23 becoming Wolverine, Amadeus Cho becoming the Hulk, and Riri Williams becoming Iron Man in a short amount of time. Fans complain because everything's getting changed too fast, Marvel deflects it by saying fans don't want diversity, implying they're racist.

Replacement heroes have been a thing decades ago so no one who actually reads comics gets upset at replacments in general. People who only watch the movies think James Rhodes was only War Machine, but in the comics he replaced Iron Man when Tony Stark's alcoholism problems got worse. The reason people didn't complain in any significant number back then is because Iron Man wasn't an a-list character (and there were no Marvel movies back then other than Howard the Duck and some TV movies), and the replacement was done logically from a storytelling standpoint, and only Iron Man was being replaced.

>>92792134
It's because Diamond has shitty distribution

>>92789007
>replaced

>>92791924
Floppies are what the market is built around.

>>92792211
And you are willing supporting the death of the market.

>>92788305
someone really ought to hack comixology and get those numbers, especially if they sell information about their own consumers anyway

>>92788305
Writing is shit because DC pays better and Image gives royalties, so the best talent leaves. Everyone wants to be Kirkman.

>>92792223
Comics will still be around when/if floppies go. Webcomics get by without them.

>>92792154
>People who only watch the movies think James Rhodes was only War Machine,

No he was Iron Patriot too :^)

>>92792271
I'm advocating for floppies to go. The market would be better without floppies and instead switched to a solely trade/ogn model.

>>92792276
Somehow I forgot about that film.

>>92790009
i've read cerebus. the author is not red or black pilled, but he may be taking pills for his mental derangement. literally.

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>>92788023
>/po/ here
Goddamnit, and there I thought I would see cool comics-themed origami.

>>92792085
And if you google them, are they in their original Japanese language, or are they translated? Because that's the only way Americans will even get exposed to an untranslated series anyway.
To manga companies and manga artists, Americans (and the west in general) don't matter too greatly compared to Japan. To them, we're just a nice little bonus they get to have that may even come to a surprise to them. The fact that you have people who learned Japanese, buy untranslated manga, and translate it for the rest of us to read it basically gives that artist free publicity to another potential market. Something I'm sure nobody in Japan or other countries would bother to do with American comics.

>>92792293
Trades also depend on floppies and ogns will be sparse regardless. Marvel and DC need all that money months in advance to operate.

>>92792301
He's not taking any pills. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but he refuses all forms of treatment other than prayer.

>>92788452
Femthor doesn't really work as she had better sales compared to the previous Thor book for about 2 years.

>>92791483
>Pic related; just one of their many failed ways to even try to compete.

But I thought moving away from sexiness is one of the things killing the big 2?

>>92789955
guess someone should hack them to get those numbers, especially if they sell/buy the information of their own consumers anyway

>>92792303
Did you remember what the conversation was actually about?

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>>92792303
Hitman got a fan translation and as a result Dogwelder has a fanbase in Japan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uTfS9Jp-N0

>>92792335
I think it was just "borderline schizophrenic" and he assumes it got worse unless there's another mental breakdown I don't know about.

>>92789999
wow millar is an idiot

>>92792331
>Trades also depend on floppies
No they wouldn't. If you cut out floppies and instead sold them strictly in volumes the market would be better. They are easier to market and distribute because they don't fall under the Diamond monopoly.

>>92792401
and i think you can tell by his writing that he has very low emotional intelligence

>>92792414
The reason they are able to sell trades at the prices they do is because of floppies.

>>92792293

I prefer trades but I have to admit that floppies allow them to take bigger risks and let people get in on the ground floor with their ideas

>But that never happens and they just use Bendis et. al over and over again

I know. Imagine how much worse it would be if they had to commit to 7-10x the content for a single offering.

>>92792154
>Civil War by Millar

the first civil war wasn't even that good. it's premise was completely relevant to mutants and mutants were ignored.

>>92792335
>refuses all forms of treatment other than prayer

what could go wrong?

>>92792485
It was better without mutants

>>92792461
>The reason they are able to sell trades at the prices they do is because of floppies.
Shenanigans. Image comics sell substantaily less floppies than the Big Two and their collections are cheaper.
>>92792463
I don't know, you can still be risky with volumes/ogns. A few years back DC did that Zatanna/Black Canary OGN that came out of no where and was great.

>>92788023
>/po/ here,

fuck off back to your containment board

>>92791902
Herc and Cho kinda went their own ways after Chaos War, and eventually Herc joined back up with the Avengers.

>>92792508
Nothing, he made a great comic book.

Oh, he has no contact with his family, most of his friends avoid him now, he has trouble paying his bills and he will soon die penniless, but other than that... nothing went wrong

>>92792594
Plus, the great comic book goes public domain right after he dies and gets to see his schizo god.
Everybody wins!

>>92791653
Manga sell more than American comics in pretty much every market that isn't the US.

>>92792561
to be fair he may have already done that. All the recent convo has been on the topic of manga or why comics don't sell. No angst or group signaling to see here.

>>92792552

You an but they won't. It's a bugger pitch and all.

>>92792347
it was still obvious pandering. they could have brought back Valkyrie and given her Mjolnir

>>92792552
Image doesn't have the overhead the big two do. Losing some of that overhead means they publish fewer books, also meaning they take fewer risks. The cost difference is why people talk about the current "golden age of television" while movies are mired in summer blockbusters, sequels, remakes, and adaptations of existing work.

>>92792463
Floppies encourage less risks than trades because then you're chaining one comic to the success of two publishings, one of which has to deal with Diamond.

>>92792591

Can I read about him in Avengers comics? I really enjoyed his last ongoing and the dynamic he had with Gilgamesh getting back into shape, shame it got cancelled. Internet God and all was kinda stupid but eh

>>92792721
I don't know, I just feel like the floppy is a dead model for the most part. Especially the way the big two handle it.

>>92792517
lol you don't listen very well, or pay attention to the subject the thread is about.

>>92792721
The golden age of television began and ended with the Wire

>>92792723

That makes sense

>>92792661
>>92792594
Anyone have that scan from the page about AIDS being created by the US government or something?
Man he went off the deep end.

>>92790820
>For some reason people around here give her a pass.
You know, I know, even Boco knows why /co/ gives her a pass.

>>92792561
>/po/ is a containment board
Never gets old.

>>92792753
He's in the current Avengers book by Waid/Del Mundo.

>>92792303
I don't know if I'd say the international maket is a mere "bonus". Something like Naruto sold 80 million volumes outside of Japan to 140 million domestically.
Sure they're usually an afterthought in the development phase because nothing that doesn't sell in Japan has even really performed incredibly outside of it. Although there are plenty of coproductions on anime (sometimes not manga adaptations), notably with France.

>>92792717
>it was still obvious pandering.
Yes but not an example of "SJW ruined sales"

>>92792154
Honestly, the only things I have problems with in terms of the current Marvel legacy lineup are as follows:
Jane being Thor is cool, but she should've gone for a different name, since "Thor" isn't a title. Yeah, the whole "girl power free pass" page was some shit, but she's a far less offensive replacement than people make her out to be. Aaron's just not a great writer most of the time.
Riri is a weird idea that I don't know how I feel about, when Rhodes' niece could've fit that bill and been an existing, and malleable, character.
Doom as Iron Man, on the other hand, seemed like a good idea on paper, but is being written by a man who can't write Doom or FF characters to save his life. Look at how he handled Annihilus in his ass-tastic GotG run.

Basically, if these legacy characters were written by writers who had an actual sense of "legacy" and history of the medium (as opposed to histrionic lolcows) they'd be doing far better in the public eye. Rhodey being Iron Man, Masterson being Thor (then Thunderstrike), She-Hulk being the FF's muscle-person, Crystal being the FF's den-mother/hidden powerhouse, Storm and Wolverine de facto leading the X-Men when Xavier was in space, the list could go on for legacy and replacement done right.

>>92788023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFAPKDVXNnw&index=103&list=PLC02E38475847A266

The last couple of minutes of this punctuate that """diversity""" has been losing sales.

>>92792906

Brah it literally is

It was made when mad /new/ users were shitting all over the site when that ship sank.

Maybe it's a good board, maybe it's a bad board, but it's unquestionably a containment board.

>>92792485
>the first civil war wasn't even that good.

Yeah, and I hated it too. But even I had to admit it sold well both when it was in comic and again in TPB form. That probably might've helped make people at Marvel more arrogant about not listening to the fans.

And AvX, Civil War II, and IvX were even fucking worse than Civil War.

>>92792996
I think he was having a chuckle at /po/ being a containment board.
/po/ not /pol/

>>92792975
https://www.google.com/#q=thor+sales+down

>>92793034
Yeah, OP made a typo. It should be obvious what OP meant though.

>>92793034

WELL I'M RETARDED

>>92793030
>it sold well

yeah, so do tampons. that's not really an argument, and the rehashing of civil war, civil war 2, did not sell well, so if it was so solid, then why didn't civil war 2 sell? because it was shit. the concept wasn't meaningful, it didn't have a future or keep people's attention for very long, and insulted the struggles of other groups of heroes, namely benevolent mutants

>IvX were worse
that's not under dispute

>>92793037
Two years after she got the hammer, until then she sold better than the previous Thor run.

>>92788023
so many of the main heroes made appearances in other comics before getting their own comic title.

you can't just throw some new shit out there when the audience hasn't even been introduced to it

>>92793118
that's nice. so where is femthor now?

>>92791161
>these people already have their rights

oh, is THAT why parents have doctors butcher ambiguous genitalia before they're old enough to decide what they identify as? gosh you sure know your stuff.

>>92792979
>"Thor" isn't a title
cf. Beta Ray Thor
cf. Masterson Thor
I hate you plebs who spout off things without knowing about comics.

>>92792996
It may have started as a containment board, but now it's one of the highest traffic boards on the site. It's inevitable that people who come for /pol/ will eventually check out other boards.

>>92793211
i thought it was Beta Ray BILL

>>92793165
Still selling 36k as of March (good for 3rd best selling solo female Marvel book), which is more that you can say for most Marvel titles when reaching issue 15+.

Are you done shitposting for the sake of it now?

>>92793098
>that's not really an argument,

It is, though, what the fuck are you talking about?

I bring it up in >>92792154 to explain Marvel's pattern of thinking. I don't say that Civil War by Millar was a good comic. I say it did well in sales, which is why Marvel kept going back to that dumb hero vs hero well.

If Millar's Civil War had been a flop, they would've put more effort into avoiding more hero vs hero stories.

I don't know what kind of argument you're trying to wage here, that Civil War wasn't a success because you hated it? I hated it but had to begrudgingly admit it was a success.

>>92793278
citation please. oh and is thor still a female?

comichron lists IvX outselling thor for the first few months of this year

>>92793310
so the thread is about sales.

civil war was a one trick pony, which means it's not sustainable, so in general it was bad for sales.

>>92793380
IvX also still outsold the vast majority of Marvel titles. Your argument would be better if you said Unworthy Thor outsold Jane Thor.

>>92793380
Yes, Thor is still Jane.

>>92793380
I thought you were all on the up and up with google and shit.
>Mighty Thor 17 $3.99 Marvel 36,106
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-03.html
> is thor still a female?
Yes, "Odinson" is in Unworthy Thor, which partially explains Femthor's declining sales.

>comichron lists IvX outselling thor for the first few months of this year
And? It's an event book on its first issues dude. It also outsold Unworthy.

>>92793428
Yes, which leads back to the point in my post about how Marvel looks at things and see something successful, then learns the wrong lesson and milks the thing to death.

AvX was also a large sales success even though that was a bigger piece of shit than Civil War so they still pushed through with hero vs hero some more.

>>92791483
>I did the math, and one volume of a comic book having six issues in one book costs double the amount of a manga that may have 8-10 stories for up to $4-6 less
Did you factor in mango having less story per page? The comic adaptation of Star Wars: A New Hope is one $20 trade and the manga adaptation is $40 worth of tankobon.

>>92793445
okay.

unowrthy thor outsold jane thor

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-03.html

>>92793238

That high traffic is exactly why it needed a containment board in the first place. That doesn't stop it from being a containment board. It is, ironically, a wall; a kind of buffer to mitigate the flow.

>>92793259
>Beta Ray BILL
After he got Stormbreaker. He was Beta Ray Thor while he held Mjolnir.

>>92793445
Even then newer books always sell better UT is selling 9k issues more on issue 5 than MT on issue 17, it's not exactly a landslide.
Besides you could argue that from Marvel's point of view they now have double the Thors to milk thanks to introducing her in the first place.

>>92793491
outsold by unworthy thor

>>92793510
if it's not sustainable, why are you calling it a success?

>>92793540

Well that was stupid too

>>92793531
And Jane Thor was selling more than that on issue 5.
New books always sell more, then the interest dies when people realize it's shit. Let's see if Unworthy is still holding at that level a year from now.

>>92793594
But the fact that you didn't know until now shows that only casuals are whining.

>>92793590
Because Civil War did well in sales and still continues to do well in sales (in TPB form). Civil War II being a lower-selling piece of shit does not affect Civil War's sales retroactively. Do you think that Watchmen knock-offs having terrible sales means Watchmen is not a success? It doesn't work that way because now you're trying to mesh two different arguments together.

>>92793608
sure. i'll try to remember. -_-

>>92790359
Y'know, you're actually not wrong with that description. You're just leaving out one teeny-tiny detail.

>>92793669

Sorry, I should have clarified, I wasn't the guy you were arguing with.

It was stupid then, it's stupid now, there's a reason why they changed it.

I also resent that if you've read a fuck ton of Bill but didn't read the short time he was using that particular garbage alias you're a casual. Casuals don't know anout Bill in the first place.

>>92788416
Who, uh, is that in the middle?

>>92788023
>/po/ here
>get excited because I think it's a /po/-poster and /po/ is great
>(((Disney)))
Well shit, I should have seen it coming and that's on me I guess. God forbid someone that isn't a cancerous shitposter crossboard for once.

>>92793770
The chick from Joe Mad's Battlechasers, maybe? Hard to tell without color/clothes.

>>92793674
ah, so what you're saying is that that first civil war story was sustainable.

okay cool. the concept of civil war itself, again, in the form of civil war 2 is not.

>>92793763
This sounds like something a casual trying to save face would say.

>>92793818

Okay. Which part?

>>92793812
Yes, and that's my point much earlier in the thread. They learned the wrong lesson from something that sells and proceed to spam the fuck out of it.

Like when Superior Spider-Man was a sales success and then they decided to do approve Superior Iron Man, AXIS, Infamous Iron Man, and Hydra Cap.

>>92793061
Is it?

>>92793763
Man I've never read a Thor comic in my life old or new and I know Beta Ray Bill, that doesn't mean shit.

>>92793858
That part.

>>92793889
what i was saying is that it must not be that great if it only worked the first time around. also let's not forget that those sales were probably boosted because of the movie, not because the writing warranted praise.

>>92793763
You've read "a fuck ton" of Bill but you haven't read his original appearances?

What's the matter, you don't read comics from before you were born?

Fucking casual.

>>92793565
Unworthy Thor was a miniseries answering a question that people were hyped to find the resolution to. Miniseries usually sell less, but people were interested and yearning to figure out what happened to regular Thor

>>92794127

It's hypothetical, dumbass

If I've had a pull list for 30 years and read, say, every Cap comic in existance, but I've never read Bill's first appearances, am I not allowed to think it's retarded to make "Thor" into a title? It's fucking stupid.

>>92794386
If you don't try to hold a conversation about Thor, and if you restrict yourself to conversations about Cap, then nobody will think that you're a casual.

But the minute that you start telling us your opinions about Thor, then you're outed as a casual.

>>92793954
Civil War came out long, long before the movie and was only made into a movie because it was such a massive success as a comic.

>>92793741
What? It's about a man in a relationship with a female guarding the last sacred value against degenerates.

>>92793954
>also let's not forget that those sales were probably boosted because of the movie,

Not really; a lot of cases, the movies don't usually boost sales on the books. The only exceptions I can think of are 1989 Batman, Watchmen. Other cases might be TV shows like Walking Dead. But Iron Man didn't get much of a boost from the movies, despite the movies doing well.

Plus on top of that Millar's Civil War was out before the MCU even started and was centered on characters who wouldn't get a movie till years later. Superior Spider-Man was out long after the Amazing Spider-Man film hype had died down.

>>92794461

Thor as a title is a fucking stupid idea, suck my dick

>>92794762
Upset casual is upset.

>>92794768

No u

>>92794727
>>92794617

yes, i fucking know that. but anon was talking about civil war trades. i was implying that civil war trade sales probably went up after the movie

>>92793674
>>92794926

>>92794926
They might have, but they were already huge beforehand. Watchmen's sales probably got boosted by the movie too, but it was still a huge success before and continues to be after. Civil War is the same.

How to get a shitload of replies from /co/:

>say you're from /pol/

That's it. That's all you need to do.

>>92795037
>say that you're from /pol/
>complain that the media is run by Jews
>accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a shill
>announce that you refuse to read any more comics at all because of Ms. Marvel
>"Gee, why is /co/ so upset?"
Hmmm.

>>92790308
Take a look at the image I attached to that post and you'll understand.

>>92794978
>and continues to be after

circular reasoning. once the movie comes out, you can't say that the sales aren't affected as an original work. the existence of the movie makes the motivation for consumption an unknowable fact.

>>92795287
Then we can just say it was hugely popular until the movie, and after that is irrelevant. So it's still hugely popular.

>>92795360
once again. one trick pony.

>>92793763
>It was stupid then, it's stupid now
Well, that's great but the argument was "Thor isn't a title". Which is countered by What If Jane Foster, Beta Ray Bill, Eric Masterson, Dargo Kotr, and 616 Jane Foster all using it.

>>92795609
I don't think you know what you're actually arguing about.

>>92793786
Yes. Papercraft an origami are full of Nazis too.

>>92795650
civil war rides the coattails of american exceptionalism. civil war 2 sales were bad when the thread is about sales. also didn't DC have a similar scenario beforehand?

subject matter to civil war was similar to the problems that mutants face through their entire existence in the 20th and 21st century, yet mutants are ignored.

>sales are based on audience's poor taste
>thread is about sales dropping
>here look at me bring up an old rubric which dismisses the current phenomenon of declining sales

cool story anon

>>92795817
Not the guy you're arguing with but your posts are really fucking confusing.

>>92795621

Thor isn't a title

It's his fuckin' name

>>92796022
>Thor isn't a title
It is in the comic books, you silly casual.

>>92795876
that's because i have to react to people who shift goalposts. i have kept one position the whole time. even after acknowledging that the civil war comic was a success, i have pointed out that the success wasn't repeated in comics again, in a thread that discusses declining sales.

>>92795287
Except you can, what the fuck are you talking about? Watchmen was still one of DC's highest selling TPBs each year before the movie. Civil War was one of Marvel's highest selling TPBs each year before the movie. What the hell does "one trick pony" even have to do with saying one thing is a success? Saying Civil War is a success does not mean saying Civil War II is a success.

>>92796128
I think your posts are really fucking confusing because you don't know what you're arguing about.

>>92796085

Technically, but only because some writers are retarded. Shit doesn't get a free pass just because it's canon.

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>>92796572
>Shit doesn't get a free pass just because it's canon.

>>92796673
He's baiting.

>>92793197
Not him but as a cos make living in America I had my genitals butchered as a kid too. It's pretty common

>>92796673

How is this hard to understand?

Sometimes people do retarded things, but those things are canon, but that does not make them non-retarded

>>92797927
>Sometimes people do retarded things, but those things are canon, but that does not make them non-retarded

You mean like you're doing now?

>>92798413

As far as I'm aware, this conversation is non-canon

Except for calling people who aren't Thor, Thor being retarded. That's absolute, multiverse-spanning truth.

>>92796022
It's both.

>>92796572
>Shit doesn't get a free pass just because it's canon.
Thor: the Avenger, the Marvel Comics character, the alien space God is a title.

Thor the old Norse God of Thunder is a name. Thor the old Norse God also had red hair. the Marvel Comics character has blonde hair.

Hippolyta in Greek myth married Theseus and was slain by either Penthesilea, Theseus, or Molpadia.

Hippolyta the DC Comics character is the mother of Wonder Woman, still very much alive, and there's no reference to Theseus in her backstory.

The point being that characters from classical and Norse myth are not the same as the characters published by either Marvel or DC Comics. So before you get your panties in a twist remember that originally Thor was a physician named Donald Blake who being worthy of lifting Mjollnir took the alias Thor as the hammer gave him the power of Thor (I understand the last point of Donald Blake being a seperate has been retconned into a weird and confusing place, but that was how it worked initially).

My point being mythology =/= comic book continuity.