Katara is bullshit. She starts the show as a completely shit

>>92699443
>Toph and Azula were both prodigies who spent their lives training in some of the best conditions, the strength they're introduced at is the strength they stay at.
And that somehow makes it better? No, it makes it much worse actually.

>>92699443
Those were simple water techniques

Meanwhile Sokka kickstarts the Industrial Revolution without and formal education but no one complains.

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Katara > Korra

Also she's the healer/support of the group. Every campaign must have one.

If you think it's pointless or useless, try making one group with only AGRRO

It sucks.

>>92699470
When you're at the top there is nowhere else to go. Well except if you're Toph then you can invent a new form of bending but other than that.

>>92699564
The problem was the writing putting them at the top in the first place, and with little actual work put into it compared to other characters.

>>92699525
I complain, it's one of the many reasons I hate the Northern Air Temple episode, and also one of the reasons I feel Elizabeth Welch Ehasz's writing is highly overrated.

>>92699525
Sokka's creative enough to come with the idea for a submarine but he could never build one, the Mechanist was the one who was educated enough to make his ideas a reality.

>>92699655
Toph's role is to be Aang's teacher, and Azula's role is to be the antithesis of Zuko.

>>92699443
>Toph and Azula were both prodigies who spent their lives training in some of the best conditions

toph was taught by moles and practiced by fighting in an underground ring

azula probably was trained by master firebenders for hours everyday

im just saying their training experiences arent really comparable

> the strength they're introduced at is the strength they stay at

toph learns to metalbend and azula eventually reveals she can bend lightning

> after a dragon power up and finally stabilizing his emotions but he still couldn't beat his sister after she had a mental break down.

that was supposed to have emotional significance. its not all about power levels, OP

>>92699743
I know that. Doesn't excuse the hack writing.

>>92699797
You really don't know what you're talking about. They need to be powerful benders for their characters to work within the narrative. Not every character needs to have a training arc.

>>92699655
Azula is a prodigy so rare that's she's probably the only person in the world with blue fire and she has access to best teachers in the Fire Nation.
Toph's blindness gives her edge up when it comes to earthbending and she learned her bending from the badgermoles.

The reason why both of the characters are OP is because they have the perfect mix of nature and nurture to turn them into prodigies.

>>92700007
>Azula is a prodigy so rare that's she's probably the only person in the world with blue fire
Her grandpa Azulon too, probably. Azul means blue in Portuguese and probably Spanish as well.

>>92699443
Practically everyone in the main cast of ATLA is a overpowered prodigy.

>Toph and Azula were both prodigies who spent their lives training in some of the best conditions
Azula had top teachers. Toph had a formal earthbending teacher, but really all she did was fuck around with some badgermoles and had superpowers from her supposed handicap.

>but he still couldn't beat his sister after she had a mental break down
Zuko fought her to a draw during The Southern Raiders and was handily kicking her ass post-breakdown. And whooped her a bunch of times in the comics until she got even more special snowflake powers.

>>92699865
>They need to be powerful benders for their characters to work within the narrative
But they don't have to be masters.

Toph spent a couple years as a toddler hanging out with badgermoles, yet she can invent a new bending power and fight Bumi, who literally has decades of wartime experience, to a draw?

>>92700007
>Azula is a prodigy so rare that's she's probably the only person in the world with blue fire
Blue fire is literally to make Azula stand out more and be more of a special snowflake. In-universe it functions identically to normal fire.

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>>92699443
>Toph and Azula were both prodigies
I see Azula more of a tryhard. We see at her introduction that she is learning bending even on her goddamn trip, and she wants it to be perfect.

She probably trained hard all her live to show her father she is better than Zuko.

>>92699557
Why are her eyes brown? Aren't they blue?

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>>92700000
>>92699999
Theyre both trash

>>92700264

>Toph spent a couple years as a toddler hanging out with badgermoles, yet she can invent a new bending power and fight Bumi, who literally has decades of wartime experience, to a draw?

When you realize that the Badgermoles are the masters of the masters, and that Bumi was old as fuck when when she fought him to a draw then it makes sense.

Also, it may be that she learned to metal bend because of her sensory powers. But that's just speculation.

>>92699793
It is comparable they were both noble born with access to the best materials Toph just connected with animals as is the nature of an earth oriented person.

Both were aggressive by nature but Azula was bad and boujee.

Why didn't they just invade during a full moon and have Katara kill Ozai?

This is why Korra ended up being so shit, because you can't tell when there's quality character dynamics.

They made katara the "mother" of the group, but balanced it through various struggling moments:
Losing her parents, interesting dynamic with sokka with him accepting her taking over the carer role despite her youth. Aang being better at bending than her (how can she reliably be the carer if she ends up being protected by aang?). Toph rejecting her authority. Feeling a deep need to protect the group (hence her suspicions towards Zuko later on) and dealing with the moments when she can't (aang passed out at spirit pool, or when she fell for jet)

She struggles whenever anyone doubts her because she feels like it means they are doubting her very role in the group. To make the wrong decision means leading the entire group in the wrong direction, and she struggles with accepting that she could be wrong. Despite that, she's still a kid, and despite her not wanting to be, she's still incredibly naive and uninformed. But she wants to live up to expectations because she deeply fears losing those closer to her once again. That's the katara dynamic. If you'd rather have an arrogant and retarded brat, a bad comic relief, a guy literally only there so the writers can dump plot points on him and a literal Mary Sue, enjoy Korra.

>>92699443
This show was trash and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Think about it for more than 2 seconds and the whole show falls apart. But lots of people hail it as the best show ever because it looks nice and they were twelve when it came out.

>>92699443

>She starts the show as a completely shit bender, by The Waterbending Master she's improved a little but Aang is obviously leagues above her

Yeah, that was the basics of the basics. Aang was already an Airbender. And following the cycle rules waterbending was one of the easier ones to learn for him, that and he has past lives memories to an extent. To make a parallel. It's like he was a boxer and he is starting to learn Tae Kwon Do, he already knows how to punch good, he just has to change his technique a bit. But when the complex kicks start, he is in trouble.

Katara, on the other hand, started from the bottom, and in Waterbending Master she is starting to learn the basics, where the punching good guy doesn't have much trouble. But then the complex kick start, and even though she started with less experience, she starts to catch up while and laxes cuz he is the avatar and shit. Katara worked her ass off, even after the waterbending master episode she used waterbending nonstop (she kinda had to because it was her only power) which gives her even more practice than Aang

>>92699443
A noob playing WoW with Rank 1 Gladiators will typically become Rank 1 Glad themselves.

if Katara didn't become a bender worthy of her peers by the end of the show it would of been bullshit.

>>92702430
>When you realize that the Badgermoles are the masters of the masters
And the moon is also the masters of the masters, but you don't see a bunch of master waterbenders running around because they looked at the sky at night.

>and that Bumi was old as fuck
People don't get weaker when they get old in this series unless you're Zuko.

>>92702570
Shut up with your Mary Sue shit

Katara is a better bender than Aang because she has the martial instinct he lacks. It takes her longer to reach his level, but when she does, she's able to apply it better because she's not hamstrung by Air Nomad philosophy like Aang is.

It also probably helps that Water is her native element, and Aang's is Air. He can tap into the Avatar State to become the best of the best, but when he's just his regular self, when he's just Aang, I don't believe he could be better than any other bender at anything other than Airbending. It's probably part of the reason he struggled so much with Ozai- he's the Avatar, yeah, but that just means he's capable of learning other bending disciplines, it doesn't make them any less alien and unnatural to him unless he's consciously tapping into his previous lives.

>>92704490
This. A lot of people forget that Katara was one of the only waterbending warriors, not only is water a crazy versatile element but basically nobody knew how to fight one at the point the Gaang is traveling the world.

>>92699443
It's bullshit but it's not done so katara can seem cool, it's because they need a healer and they needed something to do with her
Maybe it doesn't make sense that she got so good so fast but would you rather have her be outright Marge Simpsons and never do anything at all?

>>92702504
Prophecy bullshit, probably.

>>92704490
>it doesn't make them any less alien and unnatural to him
Reinforced heavily when learning to earthbend. Airbending's light-footed practice is at odds with earth's firm, solid form, and it shows when, for example, he pushes himself back when trying to move a boulder.

>>92704277
>>92702430
>>92700264

Okay maybe I just don't remember but when the fuck did Bumi and Toph fight

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>>92704918
It was comic only.
http://imgur.com/gallery/pBTZB

>>92699443
>he still couldn't beat his sister after she had a mental break down
He was winning their duel, that's why she ended up getting desperate and cheating by firing on someone outside the duel.

>>92702430
>it may be that she learned to metal bend because of her sensory powers. But that's just speculation.
bitch how clear do they need to make it, they even did the fucking earthbending vision thing when she's figuring it out

>>92704277
>you don't see a bunch of master waterbenders running around because they looked at the sky at night.
That is quite exactly what Hama did.

>>92700189


Ugh. I speak Mexican and I just now got the whole Azula -> Azul -> Blue thing right now.

How embarrassing.

>>92707070
I didn't get Oliver Queen's pun name until three seasons into watching it.

>>92707070
same here, I always thought it was some sort of chinese name

>>92699525
Didn't the firenation already kickstart the industrial revolution? Coal, steam, and firebending ran their tanks, drills, and flying machines in ATLA.

>>92699443
>She starts the show as a completely shit bende

Because she lacked control; she had tons of raw power judging by the damage she was doing just because Sokka was pissing her off.

>>92699443
Wow I just finished marathoning and watching last episode and I was thinking this exact thing the whole time. Plus anyone else think Katara was a major bitch? All she would ever do is act like she's tough shit and be edgy. Worst girl, now Toph on the other had was a real qt.

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>>92707964
Toph is just as bitchy, it just comes off as spunky because she's a cute little girl.

>>92707086
Whats the pun?

>>92702443
>Azula was bad

Or she was just misunderstood.

>>92702706
>This show was trash and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
Every single animated series can be considered trash if you get needlessly critical and are incapable of just enjoying something, regardless of the flaws it has.

>>92702570
>a literal Mary Sue
No one in Korra's main cast is competent enough to earn that title.

>>92704277
Martial arts are one of the few sports where old masters can still beat the strong and agile younguns.

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>>92708601
People get mad when you do it to a show they like, though, so it's more fun.

>>92699443

This bothered me too since the first time I watched the show. People always give Korra shit for "bad writing", but Avatar had its major fuckups as well.

>>92709123
ATLA had fuckups, LoK was one big fuckup. Key difference.

>>92702706
>>92708601
>>92708871
>Every single animated series can be considered trash
That's not remotely true, though it might be for cartoons because they're so terrible in general.

>>92699443
Wait, didn't Zuko have Azula essentially beat? He only "lost" because he took a hit for Katara, which always struck me as bullshit, couldn't he have STILL redirected it?

>>92709491
>which always struck me as bullshit, couldn't he have STILL redirected it?
He DID redirect it as best he could, he wasn't fast enough to do it fully.

>>92709561
I guess that would explain why that blast didn't straight up kill him.

>>92709571
It was pretty obvious, though. I'm not sure why so many people still don't seem to get it.

>>92709491
They seemed pretty even in that fight, maybe slight edge to Zuko, but only because Azula was off her game. If she wasn't in such a bad mental state she would've won.

>couldn't he have STILL redirected it?
It was a split second decision to jump and take the hit. He wouldn't have had time to redirect it.

>>92709582
I understood that he took the lighting in him but I didn't understand why he didn't shoot it back at her. I guess that could be explained away by "he panicked" or whatever

>>92709582
Probably because most people were children when they saw it.

>>92709193

You're one big fuckup.

>>92709615
Oh no, most definitely, had Azula not gone fucking bonkers, she probably would've still trounced Zuko just with slightly more effort on her part.

The only time they seemed even while Azula was still on top of her game is when they fought on the airship and Azula fell off. And even then she still looked like she was just fucking with him

>>92709615
>>92709657
Nah, Azula was going all out trying to kill Zuko during the airship fight and they were evenly matched.

Azula isn't really that competent on rewatches. Half of her wins are due to plot armor.

>>92709787
The show outright tells us that Azula is more powerful. That's why Zuko brought Katara along to help. He will never match the raw talent of Azula, but unlike her, he is able to rely on others to help like Katara did. It's a far more thematically fitting conclusion than if Zuko had won over Azula through sheer ability. That would defeat the point of Zuko's character arc in a way.

>>92709869
But that theme is retarded.

>>92709869
>The show outright tells us that Azula is more powerful
u wot m8

In the show Zuko is evenly matched post Dancing Dragons and was straight styling on her when she went crazy.

Zuko brought Katara along because she needed something to do in the finale.

>It's a far more thematically fitting conclusion than if Zuko had won over Azula through sheer ability
Why? His ability was also something gained through having friends to help him. He literally couldn't have learned the Dancing Dragons form without Aang, he couldn't learn lightning redirection with Iroh, etc.

It would have been more thematically fitting to have Zuko beat Azula while being way more satisfying to watch.

>>92699443
You're obviously ignoring the fact that like Azula and Toph, Katara was also born a prodigy, she was just never given the appropriate environment needed to develop her talent. Once she did she flourished.

>>92707990
Right, Toph is legitimately an awful person, I can't believe Aang let her become a fucking chief of police. I can't believe she managed to hold the position for so long either.

>>92710305
Honestly, the more I rewatch the show the more I find myself disliking ALL the characters. Yes, *all*.

That's not a good trait for a show to have.

>>92699727
>tfw Sokka has Leonardo-tier intellect but bending makes that sort of skillset almost useless

>>92710335
When I rewatched it I was surprised at how nicely everyone developed over the seasons.

What show do you think has good characters with meaningful arcs?

>>92710335
Since ATLA was aimed at kids I don't find it surprising that I dislike certain characters as an adult, but I can overlook it since these characters themselves are kids. It wasn't until LOK that I realized just how shitty of a person Toph really was, but it was definitely something I should have noticed before.

>>92710431
>It wasn't until LOK that I realized just how shitty of a person Toph really was

>LOK is canon
Haha no

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>>92699443
>Toph and Azula were both prodigies who spent their lives training in some of the best conditions

I think it's more that Toph and Katara were prodigies, while Azula actually worked really hard with the best trainers and privilege too to get where she was at.

But both Katara and Toph has the "benefit" of obsessing about their bending 24/7 in a spergy and OCD way, too. So they did work at it and think about it every waking minute while Aang was very laid back about bending even though he knew he needed to master it.

>>92710452
I'm not gonna adhere to your headcanon and like I said, Toph's always been a bad person, I could just forgive it because she was a kid.

>>92699443
She was alright in season 1 but then became an insufferable cunt in season 3.

>>92710452
It's not even debatable

>>92710267
>In the show Zuko is evenly matched post Dancing Dragons
Not accurate, by Zuko's own admission.

>Zuko brought Katara along because she needed something to do in the finale.
The reason why it was Katara specifically was thematic. They fought in the finales for the first two seasons, and were a big part in each other's character development. To end with Katara saving his life was a great way to cap their relationship off. The trust between them was also a nice juxtaposition to Azula who had driven away her friends.

>He literally couldn't have learned the Dancing Dragons form without Aang, he couldn't learn lightning redirection with Iroh
I see your argument, but I still think that Zuko being stronger than Azula detracts from his character arc somewhat. His ability as a firebender was not what was important to his growth, and neither was beating Azula. His whole life he felt that he needed to meet his father's expectations and be more like Azula, but it was by following his own path that ended up winning the day. To end with Katara, his former enemy saving his life at the end is far more powerful.

>>92710452
This. LOK's treatment of the old cast, Toph in particular, was god awful. They really needed Ehasz.

>>92710431
>as an adult,
You mean as a whiny manchild who hates seeing himself in the mirror.

>>92702570
>a literal Mary Sue

You mean Aang and Kitara?

>>92699443
Nice job ignoring how Toph discovered metal-bending on her own, and how Azula got a huge upgrade in learning lightning-bending.

>>92710956

Also how fatty Iroh starts doing pushups and becomes Arnold later that episode.

>>92710419
I'm not talking about "arcs", I'm talking about the characterization itself. The characters are simply not very likeable for a long list of reasons in each case.

Teen Titans is an example of the exact opposite, the more I watch that the more I LIKE the characters.
>>92710431
Toph is probably the worst example to use in this case, because her character was so flat that there wasn't much to like OR dislike, but in any case she really mellowed out after The Chase.

>>92699443
>he still couldn't beat his sister after she had a mental break down

He would have won if Katara hadn't been a factor.

However if Azula's dip in sanity arguably lowered her combat potential significantly so who knows if Zuko could have won under normal conditions.

>>92710615
>Not accurate, by Zuko's own admission.
Just because Zuko says it doesn't make it true.

>but I still think that Zuko being stronger than Azula detracts from his character arc somewhat
Zuko becoming stronger was part of his character arc. Instead of just firepunching EVEN ANGRIER, he learns new techniques, fights smarter instead of harder, and has new calm mindset that contrasts nicely with his earlier angsty self and Azula's increasingly deranged mind.

>but it was by following his own path that ended up winning the day
But part of his path was "help the avatar beat the Fire Nation," with his part being to beat Azula. Regardless of whether it's better from a character standpoint, it's Zuko losing again in the finale.

Seeing Zuko getting his ass kicked all the time was tiresome. The finale was the perfect time to reward Zuko's with the fruits of his labor, to showcase his personal growth and have him finally win, only for him to get his ass kicked AGAIN by Azula pulling more special snowflake shit out of her ass.

>To end with Katara, his former enemy saving his life at the end is far more powerful.
But they had already saved Zuko's life a bunch of times by the time the finale happened. To have it done again is just symbolism for the sake of symbolism.

>>92708601
>Every single animated series can be considered trash if you get needlessly critical and are incapable of just enjoying something, regardless of the flaws it has.
You do realize you can apply this to Korra right?

>>92704277
>but you don't see a bunch of master waterbenders running around because they looked at the sky at night.
>what is bloodbending

>>92711469
Yup.

>>92711287
>But they had already saved Zuko's life a bunch of times

Zuko saved Katara in the finale.

>>92711368
Nobody was talking about Korra.

>>92700264
>special snowflake
>seriously using that against a fictional character.

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>>92699443
who cares? would fug her all day. Korra too.