Why is it that a lot of female characters seem to be so much

>>92634837
There's a lot of things you have to avoid while writing female characters, otherwise some blue haired woman will complain and flood your company's twitter page about how sexist the portrayal is.

>>92634893
Yeah, that's probably a factor

>>92634893
Meanwhile, male characters have all manners of hell written upon them, but irl men don't complain

Really makes you think.jpg

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>>92634837
>Implying that all male characters are not poorly written.

>>92634837
Because if you make a well written female character some small group of feminists is going to find a reason to bitch about it and the whole movement will follow.
The only way to avoid that is giving the character no special characteristics at all.

>>92634837
Because they're written realistically. Just how it is.

>>92635458
I don't want realism, I want a waifu.

>>92634837
Most writers are men, and men don't know how to write women.

>>92635979
Only correct answer here

>>92635153
Western feminists are a joke.
They complain about stupid shit like why there isnt a female emoji or portrayal of fictional women in games and comics.
Go fucking liberate the women in middle eastern countries. They actually need it.

>>92634893

Don't pretend that men don't go through these characters with a fine-tooth comb to prove that they're all Mary Sues in a way that they never do for male characters.

The need for flaws in women vs men for fiction is horribly imbalanced on the Internet.

>>92635979
Why write them any different than men, in this day in age? Except for obvious things, of course.

>>92636064
Because when most writers have a problem of deciding a characters sex and gender after the character is written. You should do a list of characters values, morales, etc THEN decide their sex, gender, race, age, etc. Those factors primarily decide how your characters values came to be, not the values themselves. Premeditating your characters descriptions begins to pidgeonhole how you write types of characters, and many male writers have women issues and those wholey shine through when they write female characters in the aforementioned manner.

>>92636189
deciding a characters sex and gender *before* the character is written.

That and many of them have a natural bias to write certain archetypes strictly as one sex or the other.

>>92636062
But they ARE all Mary Sues...

>>92636064

>Why write them any different than men, in this day in age?

Because what you're born as will inform your upbringing and who you are. The notion that the entire world is somehow all post-racial and post-gender is fucking absurd.

>inb4 Tumblr

Whatever. I'm not saying that every woman needs to want to smash the patriarchy, but them being born is going to inform their personality no matter what the Internet says.

Men are natually protective of women. Which means they will be biased to shield them from harm, even fictional.

>>92636412
It goes way beyond "protective". It's called the pussy pass.

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Guys can't write girl characters well.

Girls can't write.

>>92636325
While you're right, the economic status you're born into and the chance exposures you have with others during formative years influences personality on an astronomically different level than what genitalia you have

>>92636325
>Because what you're born as will inform your upbringing and who you are. The notion that the entire world is somehow all post-racial and post-gender is fucking absurd.

TERF DETECTED

>>92636479

>While you're right, the economic status you're born into and the chance exposures you have with others during formative years influences personality on an astronomically different level than what genitalia you have

I don't disagree.

I'm just saying the "just write men exactly like women" argument is dumb and basically amounts to "Women should never ever be written to have an issue with men or feel pride in their gender because something something bad writing."

>>92636428
Pussy pass exists because protectiveness. Sperm is cheap, womb is valuable. Until some societies bloated to ridiculous numbers very recently, no society could've afforded judging a woman as hard as it judges sperm.

>>92634837
because most writers are men thus they are sexist

>>92634837
Because most writers these days write them as females rather than as characters

>>92634837
because either they're manic pixies, helpless airheads or bitches. They don't get to be a real character, just a cardboard cutout. Imagine if all male characters were jocks or nerds.

>>92635979
Steven Universe uses female writers and the girls in that show are either shitty or ripping off some already existing anime girl

>>92636612
They're just poor writers in general

>>92636612
Steven Universe has girls who are flawed - Amethyst is indolent, and Pearl is neurotic, for instance.

>>92636787
Nobody was saying SU girls are mary sues though, just that they are written shitty or as a ripoff of some already existing anime girl and that females are writing them

>>92636787
>"Who cares if they're poorly written? Look, flaws!"
Why can't the SU fagboys just stay in their circlejerk?

>>92634837
Because people are afraid to write a girl character with flaws other than "she's a bit manic".

It's so hard to think of a main female character who's personality isn't being "always right".

I blame the 90s.

>>92634837
The feminism thing does play a role.

People try to be super careful when they write women, and the writing suffers for it.

Men, on the other hand, they can just do whatever they want when they write for them.

>>92636982
No, nowadays men are pretty much required to be written as worse characters so the women shine in comparison.

>>92634837
Because if you write a female character well (i.e. how a female actually may behave), Tumblr, Twitter and half of /co/ as well will throw a fit. That is by the way what you're seem to be doing, given that Mabel largely acts like girl her age.

>>92636927
>It's so hard to think of a main female character who's personality isn't being "always right".
Wild Thornberry actually did this one good. Eliza has been shown being naive, careless in her actions, and has even been wrong several times. Her sister Debbie is selfish, short-tempered, and oblivious to the world around her. If you changed them to being male characters then their personalities and traits wouldn't change because they were written separate from their gender.

>>92636064
>Why write them any different than men, in this day in age?

Because they are in fact different.

>>92637018
>That is by the way what you're seem to be doing, given that Mabel largely acts like girl her age.
The problem is not this (Although it's not thematically appropriate, since this cartoon doesn't feature kids act their age) it's that she's given refuge from fallout of her choices and is always right, while Dipper suffers for his mistakes. You don't become automatically right just because you don't know any better.

>>92636479
>While you're right, the economic status you're born into and the chance exposures you have with others during formative years influences personality on an astronomically different level than what genitalia you have

Utter and complete bullshit.

>>92634837
I don't know what you mean, since Mabel was many times more interesting than Dipper.

Personally I thought they should have gone more wild with Dipper's antics.

>>92634893
This is the primary factor. You need to have women in the show to cover demographics, but writing them incorrectly will tank the brand so they have to be written generically.

> inb4 "get more womyn writers shitlord"
It doesn't matter the gender of the writer all will get flack if they write the character wrong.

>>92634837
all in your head. it's your own bias/perception that makes you think they're not well written.

>>92634893
fpbp

>>92637091
I don't want to go off-topic here but there's a good deal of truth in that. Most of these SJW/hyper-feminist loudspeakers are people who have been sheltered and unchallenged for the majority of their lives yet they're always the one talking about suffrage and privilege as if they've been the ones having to deal with it.

>>92637056
HELLO! I'M NIGEL THORNBERRY!

>>92636602
Arent they all jocks and nerds?

>>92636412
>Men are natually protective of women.

No, they aren't. Manosphere's evolutionary speculations are just as bullshit as evolutionary speculations in general. Societies where biological survival could actually be a concern tended to treat women as a mix of workhorses and cocksleeves.

Protectiveness towards women is socially engineered, though on the other hand it seems to be associated with societal success and development.

>>92637183
crawl back under your bridge, /pol/ troll

>>92637239
>Societies where biological survival could actually be a concern tended to treat women as a mix of workhorses and cocksleeves.
And to treat men as workforce and cannon (or, well, spear) fodder.

>>92637238
So i guess we write non binary characters only?

>>92636612
>it's an /r9k/ thread

SU has lots of problems but its characters are way more multi-dimensional and flawed than most kids' cartoon characters, and if you look for it, you can claim all characters are a ripoff of some other character. The SU characters all have major differences from the characters people say they remind them of.

Most of the characters /co/ go nuts over are generic self-insert characters like Marco, Dipper, Wirt, Finn, etc. who range from shitty to mediocre and are pretty much the same character. Most male characters are just not that well written either. Dipper got more attention than Mabel but his arc was pretty shitty too and kept circling to "muh Wendy muh spaghetti spilled" which was shit. The only character who was decently written in GF was STan who was a male character but that was one fucking character.

Meanwhile a character like Star Butterfly like her or not is about as complex as any male character, she suffers and has flaws she pays for.

Most cartoon characters are not wrriten all that well or their shows jump the shark and they turn to shit, it's not a male vs. female thing. However most writers are men and it's true that people often can't write characters they see as different from them in some way well.

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>>92637332
>Being this mad just because somebody said "I don't like thing"

>>92637406
I'm not mad faggot, I'm saying you're wrong. You have to be a retarded to say generic anime harem self-insert boy from 2010s cartoon Y is better written than a lot of female characters when it's just copypasta of the same old bland protagonist beats we've seen a billion fucking times. A lot of male characters /co/ points to as well written just aren't well written.

>>92635329
male characters have agency.

female characters tend not to.

>>92637091
is that why everyone of a certain gender acts exactly the same?

>>92637496
Star has agency, so do Marceline and Bubblegum and the Crystal Gems. This kind of thing is less of an issue these days than it used to be. Even bannable offense show has female characters with agency who suffer for their flaws.

>>92634893
You can't show a woman get beat down or fail or have character flaws. This makes them boring and safe.

>>92637288
Canonfodder yes, but a lot of those backwards societies use women as heavy labor while the men relax.

My brother did two tours of duty in Iraq, and he came back a feminist after endlessly watching women labor in the field while the men would sit in the shade and sip tea.

>>92634837
Maybe because there are more make content creators and we struggle to understand women because even they don't understand themselves?

>>92635153
This is just like real life. Men are expected to work hard and woman are expected to have things handed to them. This has been the case for thousands of years and even feminists make it worse by demanding woman get handed jobs.

>>92637573
>so do Marceline and Bubblegum and the Crystal Gems
Those characters are dicking around doing nothing to advance forward for the majority of their respective series though. If they do have agency, then they aren't written to show it. Or the shows themselves aren't written to include a complete, overarcing plot, only the illusion of one.

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>all the archetypes for men still hold true to this day and are still being displayed in media only in slight variations
>a huge amount of female archetypes are now considered sexist/backwards

It's really a struggle of our society to redefine what it means being a woman, or even harder, being a female hero, since we can't use the old archetypes. Hack writers just put a female face on a male archetype (pic related)

Great female characters/heroes in media (my opinion):
>Mr. Brisby
>Lilo (lilo and stitch)
>Mulan (eeehhh.. not so sure actually)
>Eowyn
>Lyra bellaqua (his dark materials)
>hermione (kinda...)
>some of the girls in the cronicles of Narnia

other suggestions?

>>92637744
>Great female characters/heroes in media (my opinion):
> first character is "Mr."

You had one job

>>92637635
That is because most men in the richer parts of the middle east get all their money from oil and so don't have to work a day in their life. It's a Shit culture born from not having to do anything.

>>92637744
The Boss from MGS and Krei from lot of 2 are amazingly strong and respectable woman that are 100% and not just men with faces

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>>92636062
>in a way that they never do for male characters
Male characters are poorly writtten in that they have the characteristics of a bowl of oatmeal or they're a stereotype.
Female characters are poorly written in that they're usually Mary Sues so as to not offend tumblr/twitter/HuffPo/etc., lest they be accused of rape, colonialism, patriarchy, misogyny, white-washing, etc.

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>>92637620
Hmm...

>>92637781
goddammit!

>>92637744
*Mrs. Brisby

>>92638141
Just giving you a hard time anon :P

>>92638126
Star is one of the most annoying characters of all time, she's a literal ADHD autist.
>The episode where they have to take care of Buff-frog's babies
>"lol boop the baby! xD"
>"lol feed the babiez cake! xD"

>>92636602
You mean like real girls?

>>92638126
have you even seen CCS?

>>92637744
mulan is fine.

any time you forget their gender means they're well written, unless, in mulan's case, it's the main point of the story. I never thought of lilo as a female protagonist. just a protagonist.

>>92634837
Most writers are males.

>>92638771
means nothing.

the thing between your legs doesn't automatically give you more insight on what it's like to be that gender.

>>92638825
It does.

>>92637720
I don't know about SU but in AT Bubblegum and Marceline's relationship has advanced forward a lot and it all comes from them interacting with each other and developing as characters from that interaction

They sure as shit have agency dude

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>>92638825
>the thing between your legs doesn't automatically give you more insight on what it's like to be that gender.
>Males don't have more insight on being male than females!
Are you serious right now?

>>92638825
Considering men and woman are different in a neurological way I think it probably does make it easier to write about a man as a man.

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>>92637332
>It's a /r9k/ desperately tries to defend the shitty show he likes post

>>92634893
>>92634837
This. With female characters you don't have the same freedom of writing of the male characters, so is easy to just make then generic son no one complains.
Also is more easy to female characters to be successful, all you need to do is make her cute or sexy and give her some generic personality. Doesn't matter how generic the final product is there are people who will buy it.
Now to make a male character successful you actually need to either put a real effort in the characterization give him a motivation and a personality, otherwise they will be just some blank self-insert that no one really care.

>>92637056
klasky csupo shows had some better than average characters now that I think about it, like in Rugrats or As Told by Ginger. Is it because Klasky is a female producer?

>>92639123
>they will be just some blank self-insert that no one really care

here are especially on /a/ a huge chunk of the male protags are just blank self inserts but people usually don't complain they just use their blank self insert to ship with their waifu or waifus on the show trying to turn everything into a harem

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>>92636064
Those "obvious" things can be more nuanced than you think, and play a role in behaviors and decisions in ways you wouldn't think conventional because you're not a woman.

source: I've tried writing female characters and it's hard as fuck not to make them dudes with tits and no dick.

>>92636062
>reddit spacing
oKayY

Ashi ruined Samurai Jack, women ruin everything they're a part of.

>>92639598

>dudes with tits and no dick

what makes them into that

it's not like acting neutrally is male

>>92634837
Because you don't like women so you hold them to much higher unreasonable standards then men.

No, you don't like women, you only like women when they act in very specific ways. You do not hold men to the same standards.

>>92641504
Men hold women to much lower standards, as >>92636548 correctly explained. Stop consuming so much feminist propaganda.

>>92636325
Except that's wrong.

Culture is no longer divided like before, gender gaps no longer exist.

>>92637332

Wirt is probably the more complex male character in the entire decade (in the cartoon at least). Seriously is kinda strange find a character who don't care about have relationship with others person just because he don't want it. (in the cartoon)

And Beatrice is a very good female character (curiously it was written for a man). In fact the three main characters and with only ten chapters and four camics (which are canon) they get to be at a level of complexity at least equal to the characters of Steven Universe.

But they don't cry and sing overdramatically about anything.

Star is disney shit and will never be at the level of Finn and Wirt or other good female characters like Beatrice, Pearl or Nicole.