Let's think about it

>>92584372
Someone should just stop all this bulshit discussion about time travel by making a gif of Ego Trip, with Dexter just saying that time travel is complicated and just exist to give you a headache. It was made by Genndy.

>>92584372
I have no idea what you're trying to say after the 4th point, but Ashi's erasure does not eliminate Jack's time travel, as he is not from the future

>>92584372
One thing that shouldn't have happened was Ashi fading from existence. Aku dying wouldn't have kept Ashi from disappearing since she already existed.

Even Terminator 2 didn't cop out like that.

>>92584546

>Ashi's erasure does not eliminate Jack's time travel, as he is not from the future

That's retarded and wrong. Jack time traveled to the past from the future specifically because Ashi created a time portal for him to do that. You can't take Ashi out of the picture and then say he still did that time travel from the future to the past. If Aku not being around means Ashi didn't exist, then it also means Jack never returned to the past to defeat Aku in the first place since he clearly depended on Ashi to make that happen.

>>92584372
>>If there is no Aku. there is no Ashi

Right

>If there is no Ashi, there is no time travel

Wrong.

The timetravel effects are still present as Jack was originally from the past and was sent to the future, which means that the only way to rectify the situation would be he never went to the future from the time scale, time could not send him to the future as he wasn't originally from there so there's nothing to rectify, but Ashi was originally from there so her existence was a contradiction. Jack himself was unaffected by time, hence why he never aged and nothing changed, but Ashi was just as Aku was.

Ashi being key to defeating Aku makes it kind of a "snake eating its tail". If Aku, exists, then he eventually gets defeated by Jack via Ashi's portal.
The loop is closed now and thibgs move on.

>>92584620
>. You can't take Ashi out of the picture and then say he still did that time travel from the future to the past.

Sure you can if he's not affected by the timestream.

Think about it like this, if Ashi was never born and never sent back to the past, Aku rules and Jack is still in the future.

But then that means Ashi is born and sends Jack to the past.

Time cannot stop Aku from sending Jack to the past, and the existence of portals means that there is a way to return to a different time.

So Jack, who should have been living in the past if not for direct antithetical, evil magic is now back in the time he always should have been in. He wasn't affected by time before, how could he be taken out due to a paradox? He's not a paradox, he was supposed to be there. Ashi was.

This was time fixing the damage done to it by an outside source by removing the element that could not exist in a previous time, nothing more.

>>92584620
You're thinking way too hard about it. Jack's experience didn't change. Killing Aku didn't change the fact that he spent 50 years in the future and all his experiences then.

To put it simply, Ashi creating a portal back to the past 5 seconds after Aku made it does not NEGATE the effects of Aku's portal. The act of killing him is what erases that future.

>>92584688

>the only way to rectify the situation would be he never went to the future from the time scale

That doesn't work. He can't just "never go to the future." Something would have to cause him to never go to the future. In any event, he clearly did go to the future because the Jack that returned to the past isn't the same as the Jack Aku sent to the future. For one thing, the Jack that returned to the past has memories of everything he did before returning. For another thing, Aku opened a time portal to send the first Jack to the future and nobody prevented him from doing that in this last episode. All that happened was another Jack was sent back *after* he sent the first Jack to the future.

>>92584800
>>92584847

No. You're trying to just sidestep the issue.

Aku sends Jack to the future, creates the bad future, creates Ashi, lets Ashi send herself and Jack back to the past, then past Aku is defeated by Jack.

If Ashi vanishes because she "never existed," then nobody sent Jack back to the past and Aku wasn't defeated by Jack in the past. You can't just say Jack got back to the past some other way. If that were true, then we'd see him getting back to the past that other way. It also wouldn't make any sense because it would depend on Ashi not existing for him to take some other path to the past instead, and nothing caused Ashi to not exist except for her own facilitation of Aku's defeat through time travel to the past. Any time you try to remove her from the timeline you just make that new Ashi-less timeline nonsensical because her removal is caused by herself.

>>92584907
>He can't just "never go to the future."

From a personal perspective or a time perspective is the question.

Because as far as time can see he never left, why would it get rid of him or cause a paradox with him? Ashi was something incompatible with time, Jack wasn't. So from the perspective of liner time progression there's no way to get rid of Jack without causing a similar paradox of an endless loop. Time had been torn, things that weren't supposed to happen happened, and someone who was supposed to be there even just as a corpse was just gone. And all of this was done by a primordial evil the gods themselves sought to destroy, so even they wouldn't have tried to rectify the situation with Jack.

Time healed itself from Aku's magic when Jack was back, but there was no way to work around Ashi's existence.

>>92585072

>as far as time can see he never left

That's not true. He did leave. His being sent to the future was NEVER undone. Nothing suggests that. Him not aging doesn't mean "time" didn't "see" him. It means Aku's time portal had the side effect of making him stop aging.

>>92585048
>then nobody sent Jack back to the past and Aku wasn't defeated by Jack in the past.

Except you keep sidestepping that if nobody sent Jack to the past then Ashi still exists and sends Jack to the past.

>You can't just say Jack got back to the past some other way.

And we didn't! He got back to the past from Ashi.

> It also wouldn't make any sense because it would depend on Ashi not existing for him to take some other path to the past instead, and nothing caused Ashi to not exist except for her own facilitation of Aku's defeat through time travel to the past.

Exactly why she was still alive to do it.

> time you try to remove her from the timeline you just make that new Ashi-less timeline nonsensical because her removal is caused by herself.

Except the Ashi that was removed was the Ashi int he future removed from the past where she could not exist. Jack could exist in the past just like he could exist in the future.

Again, Ashi was alive, she sent Jack to the past, that's an event that isn't changed and unless we get into a paradox loop can't be changed, but if Ashi is still present in a time she has no possibility of existing in, there's nothing keeping her there without Aku's primordial magic.

Jack is not affected by the paradox, that's his time. He's an outside entity that was removed and placed back where it started.

>>92585144
>That's not true. He did leave.

Right but from the perspective of the grander sense of TIME ITSELF is what you're not getting.

> Him not aging doesn't mean "time" didn't "see" him. It means Aku's time portal had the side effect of making him stop aging.

Okay, how?

No seriously, think about it, what explanation can you have for "Aku's portal makes him not age when Aku didn't intend it/know about it at all" that doesn't also imply his affect didn't have a grander consequence on Jack being affected by time itself?

Everything suggests Jack is literally out of time and not affected by it, nothing suggests that it's just.. I dunno, spontaneous time immortality?

>>92584372
Think about it. Why didn't Jack age at all in the 50+ years he was in the future? Because, as far as the universe and time are concerned, Aku only really sent him a couple of seconds into the future.

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>>92584372
Jack was killed after he was absorbed with the ashi symbiote

Everything after that was just jacks deathdream

>>92585350
>Jack imagined he called all his friends and had a big wedding and then Ashi died forever and he felt bad but then he didn't feel bad.

That's a whole new level of dumb.

>>92585048
She did not NEGATE Aku's original action, she made ANOTHER portal

>>92585401
just like season 5

>>92585194

>Except you keep sidestepping that if nobody sent Jack to the past then Ashi still exists and sends Jack to the past.

No, I'm not sidestepping it. I'm actively pointing it out. That's one of the two things that keep happening and not happening if you stop bullshitting and honestly follow the logic through. She exists, he goes to the past, Aku stops existing, she stops existing, he doesn't go to the past, Aku exists, she exists, he goes to the past, etc. It doesn't work because either she exists and made herself not exist or she didn't exist and nobody made her not exist so she does exist again. It's never resolves coherently.

>Ashi is still present in a time she has no possibility of existing in

She had as much reason to exist as to not exist. And on equal footing with her existence were Jack's memories of everything that happened and Jack's return to the past. They all showed up following the same chain of causality that was supposedly undone, there's no reason for her to stop existing but for them to continue.

>Jack is not affected by the paradox, that's his time.

That doesn't make any sense. Him being sent back to the past is just as much dependent on the chain of causality he supposedly undid as Ashi's existence is. You can't pick and choose which goes away and which doesn't. They both came from the same exact chain of events.

>>92585261

>the grander sense of TIME ITSELF

You're making an incredibly terrible argument where causality doesn't have to make sense because you capitalized "TIME." I don't care how "grand" your sense of "TIME" is, that isn't an argument.

>Okay, how?

Nobody knows how, it wasn't explained. Even Aku didn't know how, he just speculates out loud that his time portal had the side effect of making Jack no longer age. Maybe it's like how mutations cause progeria, except the opposite. Whatever the explanation, I know it's not your explanation because your explanation is incoherent nonsense.

>>92585535

I know, that's why I wrote what I did, to argue that she *didn't* negate Aku's original action. Why are you replying to me as though I'm claiming the opposite?

>>92584372
The ending is a grandfather paradox

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>>92585350

That's some Evangelion levels of stupid right there

>>92585645
This.

Going back to the past is bullshit. You'll always erase the timeline where you go back to the past in the first place. It nullifies itself.

>>92585856
Except if there's a multiverse. But then Ashi wouldn't have disappeared.

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If Aku sent Jack back to the past, but then Jack appeared from the future and killed him, thus erasing the future events that transpired, and Ashi dies proving there's no multiverse, then what the fuck happened to the past Jack that was sent into the future just before future Jack came back?

>>92586087
The show probably wants us to suspend our belief and just assume Jack somehow still does everything we saw season 1-5.

Even though that can't actually be as they kill Aku, which means none of the stuff happens. Especially Ashi's existence, which means Jack never goes back to the past, which means Aku was never killed and blah blah blah..

I believe the show also just wants us to assume all the characters in the future still exist (except Aku and daughters of Aku of course)

>>92585699
so she didn't change anything. All she did was send jack back.
If you understand that then there should be no issue

>>92585048
>If Ashi vanishes because she "never existed," then nobody sent Jack back to the past and Aku wasn't defeated by Jack in the past

No, there was no paradox until jack dealt the final blow. You're arguing as if Aku was somehow killed before Jack could be sent back by Ashi in order to kill Aku

>>92586382
No, he's arguing that it's impossible for future Jack to go back and kill Aku because it nullifies the very means of which Jack travels to the past in the first place.

>>92586489
And this isn't just a Ashi or Samurai Jack specific time travel problem. The only way for time traveling to the past in sci-fi would make sense is through some sort of devine intervention. A supreme being outside of time and therefore not dependent on any timeline would have to rearrange things for you.

>>92586382

>You're arguing as if Aku was somehow killed before Jack could be sent back by Ashi in order to kill Aku

That literally is what happened. Aku was killed (or bound into a tree again anyway) in the past. The past happened before the future. Ashi sending Jack to the past happened in the future.

>>92585645
>Nobody knows how, but I'm right about my bullshit explanation that produces a plothole I'm arguing against instead of one that closes it.

You are literally arguing that there's only one way the time portal could have effected him and then are saying there's no way it made him immune to time's effects because, what, no argument after that? I mean if Jack's immune from Time's flow then problem solved, right?

Well, it took some time before Ashi dissapeared. So maybe when Jack was in the past the timeline started overwriting itself with new events, when those events caught up with the point Ashi was born, she disappears.

Why didn't Jack disappear, too? Because his existence didn't depend on the future. He was already on the past, and then he was there when the future got erased, so he technically didn't even leave.

Or maybe there's two timelines: one were Jack went to the future and one were Jack didn't. Both timelines infinitely overwriting themselves over each other. In other words, the events from season 1-5 happened and didn't happen at the same time.

Jack is a constant and cannot be erased from the timeline because then it would mean the events in both the future and the past didn't happen at all, so the timeline keeps him around to not break the loop.

Or maybe it was the Gods' will to keep him alive.

Or maybe the sword protects him.

>>92586667
That's pretty much kind of the inherent flaw of all of this, he's basing all of it off a very specific explanation that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and then posting a load of reasons why it's dumb. He literally brought up someone else sending him back and then argued against it even though nobody said anything about that, it's weird.

We know
>Jack is not affected by time, as in he does not age and does not seem to grow old at all.
>Time portals exist implying that the past can be changed.
>When he went back to the past, he was fine, Ashi wasn't.

This implies that the effect the time portals had on him is specific to him but not Ashi.

So, there's the answer. Jack isn't affected by time changing due to the same portal effects that kept him young, Ashi was because the Aku part of her is gone.

Maybe if the reasoning had been established he could cry plothole, but from what was actually presented there's nothing to contradict it. Jack is immune to the effects of time or the new portal had another special effect.

>>92584372
>Therefore, Jack is time travel by himself
He can't.
Because Ashi doesn't exist.

>>92584372
i didnt know that there were /sci/ cross posters here.

Should have just stayed in the future.

>people JUST NOW learning about why time travel doesn't logically work without some suspension of disbelief about basic causality.

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>>92584372
Sorry for the R&M image, but this really is the best answer for things like these in cartoons.

>>92586824
But if Ashi doesn't exist then Jack doesn't get sent to the past, so Aku is never killed.

>>92586997
Correct.

>>92586667

>You are literally arguing that there's only one way the time portal could have effected him

No, I'm arguing it doesn't make sense to say "time doesn't see him." That's fortune cookie nonsense, it doesn't mean anything. There are probably hundreds of different explanations you could come up with that *do* make sense for why he stopped aging, but that explanation isn't one of them. So no, I'm not saying it has to be one way, I'm saying it can be any number of different ways, but not the one nonsense way you're trying to articulate.

>I mean if Jack's immune from Time's flow then problem solved, right?

No, nothing's solved because being "immune from Time's flow" isn't a coherent idea. He's obviously still participating in time. He's able to move around his body and speak, that all requires time to happen. You're selectively hand-waving things that don't make sense as "time immunity."

>>92586811

>He literally brought up someone else sending him back

You claimed Ashi stopped existing and Jack was still able to get back to the past anyway. I simply pointed out he had to be sent back to the past by Ashi, not some other way, and given he had to be sent back to the past by Ashi, her no longer existing wouldn't make sense because it would erase the means of how they did the things that allegedly made her stop existing in the first place. The explanation of him still getting back to the past but her still not existing because of some other way to the past doesn't work because that would remove the events that made her stop existing. If you don't subscribe to that particular impossible scenario then great, but that doesn't leave you with any other possible scenario that simultaneously allows her to stop existing and the events causing that nonexistence to continue existing.

>Jack is not affected by time

Define "affected." He stopped aging, that's not the same as him literally not being affected by time. He still moves from past to future like everyone else.

>>92586788

>Why didn't Jack disappear, too? Because his existence didn't depend on the future.

His existence *did* depend on the future. You're conflating original Jack with returned to the past Jack. They're not the same. Returned to the past Jack wouldn't exist without that future existing, which is part of why it doesn't make sense for Ashi to disappear but for him to continue existing.

>>92587237
I'm not sure what you expected from a time travel story bro. Shit don't make sense.

>>92587237
>That's fortune cookie nonsense, it doesn't mean anything.

Bullshit, it's a magical enchantment that has a specific effect on time. Fortune cookie nonesense? That's like saying the ability to travel back and forth through time is itself nonsense, which is fucking stupid when we're talking about traveling through time via magic and the aftereffets of magic on him! How thick can you be?

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>>92584450
Time itself confusing and hard to totally grasp

>>92587237
>You claimed Ashi stopped existing and Jack was still able to get back to the past anyway.

First off, that was my first post. Second-
>You claimed Ashi stopped existing and Jack was still able to get back to the past anyway
Just from reading up above this is the second time you've brought this up and nobody else claimed it. Might want to let that idea go. Third
>Define "affected."
The predestined causality of what did or will happen. Jack was not supposed to be in the future, so every time he does something he changes it, this explains why the portal's prediction was wrong with the guardian. Jack is literally an outside entity who has been placed in another time, he doesn't belong so everything he does is changing something, and time cannot right the wrong caused by magic of what makes up Aku.

Because this was all caused by magic.

>>92587299

If your argument is "it's just magic bro," then just say that and stop pretending like you're talking about something coherent.

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>Aku TWOAHS open a portal in time and FLINGS Jack into the future
>"Aku" sends Jack back into the past, to a few seconds after initially being sent into the future
>This negates all the in-between
>Aku only sent Jack ten seconds into the future
>Also why Jack hasn't aged
>Also why it's not a paradox to have been sent back to the past, even though Ashi ceased to exist

>>92584688
Wouldn't there be an alternate time split from when the past Jack was sent to the future seconds before future Jack showed up to change the past? Wouldn't that mean there's a second Jack of a now alternate timeline without Aku trapped in the future?

>>92584372
Time travel is not real and time itself is an illusion

They can litteraly do what ever they want.

Jack was in a time loop and the loop closed

>>92587401

I know it wasn't claimed, I was offering it as the only somewhat reasonable attempt at trying to explain how Jack could still go back to the past while Ashi at the same time was removed from existence. By analogy, if you tried to argue having 12 slices of pizza and eating 1 of them left you with 10 slices of pizza, I might suggest you hypothetically could be right if someone else ate another 1 slice. Sometimes you suggest arguments other people don't claim because you're trying to outline the closest thing you can find to something that makes the conclusion they're suggesting have even a chance at working.

>The predestined causality of what did or will happen.

He still has memories of what you're now claiming couldn't have happened.

>>92587436

What caused Aku to send Jack a few seconds into the future? We know he originally sent him many years into the future. What caused the change? If you say Ashi, you just defeated your own argument.

>>92587416
>If your argument is "it's just magic bro,"

Okay that comeback does not work at all when the literal basis of the entire starting argument is "Hey this magic thing didn't act just like I thought it should and it's not following my line of thinking."

I mean it is magic. It's literally magic. Magic is how Aku opened a portal in time and magic is how he went back, magic is what made Ashi change forms and the guy using it is magic. You, the person writing this, are accepting that Aku can use magic to go forwards, and that about a half dozen magical items allowing someone to go back to the past exist. You're sitting down and saying you accept that Aku would not want Jack to go back to the past, implying he knows it can be changed if someone goes back, but then are confused when that change is made.

You accept the coherency that Jack does not age, implying that the time portal had a very specific, completely magical, effect on him, and then are confused when this effect turns out to play a bigger part.

In short, you accept everything but this, and instead posit a very unusual and senseless paradox that ignores everything before it in favor of this ideal.

I'm not saying 'Accept it, it's magic', I'm asking where are you drawing the line on what this magic actually could or could not do? Start there and maybe we can figure something out, because so far you've only said "That thing that the show is based on doesn't make sense". Which is fair? But if that's it then there's really no argument to be made against it, because getting you on step 1 is impossible.

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lol at these Aku fanboys getting mad as fuck and trying to invent ways for Aku to still be alive.

niggers get over with it. It's just a cartoon

>>92587493
>He still has memories of what you're now claiming couldn't have happened.

Which is, and follow me here, he's not affected by it. Let's repeat here
>Jack is not affected by time
>Define affected
>The predestined causality of what did or will happen

Put it together and

>Jack is not affected by the predestined causality of what did or will happen
>Jack's actions change the future because he is not affected by the predestined events that would have happened had he not been there because he's not supposed to be there.

Why would he lose his memories? He, himself, is not being affected.

The nice thing about magic in storytelling is that you can get these fantastical stories without needing to get bogged down in the technical details. As long as the use of the magic doesn't hurt the story, the questionable logic doesn't matter too much.

So the important thing about Ashi ceasing to exist is to give Jack a chance to reflect on if it was worth it to essentially erase an entire world. By defeating Aku, all those people he met will never come to be those people, as we see with Ashi. So he grieves for the loss, but still realizes that this world free from Aku is the better choice.

If we didn't have the bit with Ashi, we wouldn't have had a chance for Jack to reflect on the entire journey, and the ending wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying.

As for Aku still existing somewhere, that would undo all the good that the ending accomplished. Just from a storytelling perspective, that would be pretty shitty.

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>>92587306
That picture is stupid we don't know exactly how time is percieved by a housefly quit posting that fucking image I swear to God

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>>92588004
>and the ending wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying
I'd hate to see how the ending could be less satisfying than zero.

>>92587597

>I mean it is magic. It's literally magic.

That doesn't mean anything. You can call electricity "magic" (and historically, many people did with lightning) but it still follows rules. Two general routes you can go with here:

A) What's being called "magic" works through some unknown but logic abiding mechanisms, in which case saying "it's magic" isn't an argument and causality still has to make sense.

B) "lol it's just magic bro"

You started out with A and then jumped to B when I outlined why you couldn't make a reasonable argument for A.

>>92587736

>Jack's actions change the future because he is not affected by the predestined events that would have happened had he not been there because he's not supposed to be there.

I don't think any of that makes sense.

>Why would he lose his memories? He, himself, is not being affected.

Memories don't just start and stop with one person. It's a participatory process. Outside events had to interact with him to make those memories exist. You can't just say he wasn't affected so he keeps his memories. Where did those memories come from? From the places and times that didn't have this vaguely defined "immunity" you're proposing.

>>92588278
>You can call electricity "magic" (and historically, many people did with lightning) but it still follows rules.

I feel like you think this is a lot smarter than it is and I'm sorry to point this next part out.

>A) What's being called "magic" works through some unknown but logic abiding mechanisms,

It follows the logic it sets but nothing else.

> in which case saying "it's magic" isn't an argument and causality still has to make sense.

Except if that magic's ability is override causality.

So, again, what rules set forth by the magic that has been a stable of the very first episode, that Aku's magic can go forward in time and other objects can go back, is this magic not following? Where is the discrepancy?

The set rules of this magic are "I can defy time and either go forwards or back", and the rules set forth by Aku's preventative measures are "If he goes back I'm defeated".

Where is the break, start with that.

>>92588377
>I don't think any of that makes sense.
How so? Explain the problem.
>Memories don't just start and stop with one person.
Yes they do? As in the memories held by that person are only the result of what he himself experienced, others influence it by what they give to the experience but only at that length. Jack, himself, is the one experiencing these things. Why does he keep his memories? Same reason he doesn't age, he has special rules applied to him that means what was supposed to happen doesn't affect him the way it should have the others.
> You can't just say he wasn't affected so he keeps his memories.
That is exactly what I'm saying because if he was affected his memories would be changed.
>Where did those memories come from?
He experienced them.
>From the places and times that didn't have this vaguely defined "immunity" you're proposing.
Which is why they changed, he didn't.
>He's immune
Doesn't change.
>They're not immune
Does change.

>>92587306
>that picture

could it be any more idiotic? if you want time moving at a different rate, look at time dilation, or better yet, if you want to give your noggin a joggin', look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguAN1_JouQ

>>92588504

>I feel like you think this is a lot smarter than it is

I don't think telling a coherent time travel story where cause and effect still exist and aren't just selectively hand-waved = smart. That's just the bare minimum of making sense. Like if you told a story about a chicken crossing the road and then had the chicken never being born in the first place but still crossing the road, that would no longer make sense.

>magic's ability is override causality

"Overriding causality" is not an actual thing with any sort of meaning. Not just in the sense that fiction isn't an actual thing, but in the sense that square circles aren't actual things. Again, you should just be arguing it's magic and didn't make sense at this point because you're trying to have it both ways and it isn't working.

>what rules set forth by the magic that has been a stable of the very first episode, that Aku's magic can go forward in time and other objects can go back, is this magic not following? Where is the discrepancy?
>Where is the break, start with that.

Ashi never existing because Aku being defeated is the discrepancy. She can't never exist because she herself would need to be the cause of her never existing, and you can't cause anything if you never existed.

>I can defy time and either go forwards or back

That's not defiance, it's travel. You're not defying space by driving to a convenience store.

>>92588719
>She can't never exist because she herself would need to be the cause of her never existing, and you can't cause anything if you never existed.
With a MAGIC time portal who the fuck knows what causality is necessary. It's always been a magic portal and time travel is entirely fictional anyway. We have logic for how we perceive it would work based on science and understanding but it's a magic fucking portal, man, who cares.

>>92588634

I'm trying, but it's getting to the point where I can't even figure out what you're trying to argue anymore. I tried suggesting possible arguments you might be making, but you took offense at that so I'm no longer guessing and am just leaving it at "I don't think you're making any sense." If you want to elaborate further then maybe I'll see what you're getting at, but my suspicion is there isn't any actual thing you're getting at, just an illusion of a thing you think you're getting at that doesn't exist in reality.

>Yes they do?

No, they don't.

>the memories held by that person are only the result of what he himself experienced

That's not true. We're all massively interdependent on everything around us. You can't meaningfully talk about a person's memories existing without everything around him that participated in the memory formation equally existing.

>others influence it by what they give to the experience but only at that length. Jack, himself, is the one experiencing these things.

Both Jack and everything around him are part of the same experience. You can't just pick him out and still have it make sense while negating everything else. He was constantly in a variety of exchanges between himself and his environment.

>Why does he keep his memories? Same reason he doesn't age, he has special rules applied to him that means what was supposed to happen doesn't affect him the way it should have the others.

There's a huge leap from not aging (or just aging much more slowly) to being able to continue existing while everything else in your timeline is rendered as never having happened.

>>92588719
>Like if you told a story about a chicken crossing the road and then had the chicken never being born in the first place but still crossing the road, that would no longer make sense.

Unless at the start you establish the chicken can go back in time and if he does then changes will happen, and the end is a fox using the set forth ability to go back in time and kills the chicken.

>"Overriding causality" is not an actual thing with any sort of meaning

Sure it is. Causality is the progression of events from a succession of actions, overriding that is the ability to disrupt those actions without yourself being affected. This isn't complicated.

>Not just in the sense that fiction isn't an actual thing, but in the sense that square circles aren't actual things.

Or we could just shout two terms aren't a thing, whatever.

>Again, you should just be arguing it's magic

Correct, I have no idea how you can possibly argue otherwise without running in circles chasing imaginary terms.

>and didn't make sense

It makes sense as in it follows the rules it established. This magic, an unexplained force, has the ability to send someone forwards in time, and change everything after, and it and other forces have the ability to go backwards and prevent an event from happening and change it going forwards. This was established, and explained at the start of the series.

If you just don't want to accept that, say it. Stop dancing around with "No that term doesn't mean that" or "This doesn't work like this", say "The rules set forth by the universe don't make sense."

>Ashi never existing because Aku being defeated is the discrepancy.
Which is a cause of her loss of magic, the force established at the start of the series.

>That's not defiance, it's travel. You're not defying space by driving to a convenience store.

Then you accept that time is not strickly linear in hthis universe and can change.

>>92584372
>>92584588
Ashi didn't stop existing because of time travel, ashi stopped existing because aku was destroyed. The sword was made to destroy aku and it did; though she had amassed her own level of conciousness, she was physically a part of aku, and thus couldn't exist if he was wiped out.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

>>92588953
Pretty sure she said "without aku I never existed", the past tense implying time travel shenanigans.

God it was such a bad ending.

>>92587306
That refers to the perception of time, based on processing power, I think. Hardly seems relevant here.

Is Aku personally many times more powerful in the future than he is in the past?

>>92588880
>I'm trying, but it's getting to the point where I can't even figure out what you're trying to argue anymore.
Jack is magically shielded from the aftereffects of timetravel but Ashi and everyone else wasn't. How much clearer can I maker it?
> I tried suggesting possible arguments you might be making,
Yeah those were all full of holes and didn't make any sense in the universe set in, and half the time you just started arguing against it for no reason, so I left them because that's not my argument.
> If you want to elaborate further then maybe I'll see what you're getting at,
I really don't see how I can explain Jack's specific ability any more clearly. Ashi vanished from time because she didn't have the same magical aftereffect, or at least a lesser one as she lasted a bit.
>just an illusion of a thing you think you're getting at that doesn't exist in reality.
Now see this makes no damn sense.
>No, they don't.
Okay wow.
>That's not true.
Yes it is? Look I get what you're trying to say here but it's absolute bollock in this context, Jack himself is the anomaly who experienced all of this, what everyone else did by him was their own and he himself did not experience it as they did. You're confusing "Shaped the experience" with "Experienced it themselves."
>Both Jack and everything around him are part of the same experience.
Yes but one of those can change what happens to the others without being affected themselves.
>You can't just pick him out and still have it make sense while negating everything else.
Yes you can, since it was his actions that changed if the others felt those things, while he himself remains immune.
> He was constantly in a variety of exchanges between himself and his environment.
Correct, then he changed that environment.
>here's a huge leap from not aging
Correct, but it was one that they outright said he could do at the start if he ever made it back.

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>>92584372
stop this butterfly effect time paradox meme
Jack killed Aku
Ashi is 50% Aku
Ashi felt Aku "leave" her
Half of her essence just fucks off
It's just as possible that Ashi died because Jack killed Aku in the present

>>92589216
thank you.

>>92589216
>
>>92589058

>>92589216
Ashi literally says the reason why she vanished was because time travel shit.

>>92589058
>"Without Aku, I never would have existed"
that was the exact line, and does not imply a time travel paradox.

>>92589145
>Or at least a lesser one as she lasted a bit.
It's possible she had a full one, but without Aku her own was massively reduced.

Something about the portal not only meant they went forwards and backwards, but time effected Jack differently, they established this. What they also did was have Ashi say that part of Aku left her. Maybe in that case, the part that lasted as long as it did only did so because Ashi herself was half human. The anomaly magic couldn't last with her being half a person.

>>92584372
the whole thing with time travel paradoxes is that our standard linguistic framework, and by extension our thought processes, is unable to properly capture it. There was Aku, until Ashi went back in time with Jack and he killed Aku. At that point, there was now never Aku in the future. Because of that, there was now never an Ashi. There's no explanation for why it was on a delay for her to disappear, but when he killed Aku, there was an Ashi because that timeline could still have happened. Once Aku was finally really dead, there now was never could have been an Ashi. Time is an illusion, and one second she could have always have been, and the next she can never could have been.

>>92589412
>It's possible she had a full one, but without Aku her own was massively reduced.
Now see this makes some kind of sense. Whatever affected Jack affected his body, and Ashi literally felt the Aku part of her leave him, so when she came back she had the full power, but when Aku died she was at a severely reduced one. Maybe more than half as Aku did bring out "The best part of her".
> The anomaly magic couldn't last with her being half a person
Or less even. Aku obviously had a very unique ability that let him fuck with time, one that even he didn't understand. It's possible the remains of that were still in Ashi right to the last moment.

>>92589409
But she didn't die, she literally faded away sci fi time travel style. Empty clothes left in Jack's arms and all.

Also, if Aku and Ashi really were linked in such a way that killing one meant you kill them all, then that means Jack would have successfully killed both Aku an Ashi when he killed the other daughters.

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>>92589058
>>92589327
>>92589385
>"I'm finna stop existing because time travel sheeeeit, foolish samurai"
Please
She never mentions time travel once
She says "Without Aku I never would have existed"
You can infer time travel from that all you want, but it doesn't mean that any more than it just means she can't exist without the 50% of her that was made of up a supernatural entity that's been completely eradicated

>>92584372
Lets just say in SJ world time travel is set in stone.

>>92589571
"Without aku I can't exist" would be correct, "I never existed" is past-tense and refers to her never coming to exist in the first place.

You're grasping at some pretty distant straws.

>>92589556
>Also, if Aku and Ashi really were linked in such a way that killing one meant you kill them all, then that means Jack would have successfully killed both Aku an Ashi when he killed the other daughters.
Why?
Aku is 100% Aku. Killing something that has some Aku in it wouldn't necessarily kill the main thing, especially considering he didn't kill any of them with the Sword

Is jack in an endless loop?

I kinda thought gendy wouldve made jack go back before aku sent jack into the past to prevent a loop but theres a fucking loop now. The people in jacks future loop exist just to not exist.

GOD DAMNIT GENDY YOU FUCKED THIS ALL UP WITH YOUR ASHI SHIT

>arguing that ashi couldn't send jack back if jack killed aku
Got another one for you. Jack would never go back to the past at all, Ashi or otherwise, because if he already killed Aku there would be no reason for him to go back and kill Aku.

>>92589720
Except for the thousands of years of suffering, including the death and destruction of his homeland and all his people, that could be prevented.

>>92589720
>there would be no reason for him to go back and kill Aku.

He would still want to go back to his time. Jack wanted Aku to finally fuck off, but he mostly just wanted to go back to the past.

>>92589556
the fade out is only "time travel style" because you have a framework from back to the future to rely on; it was practically lifted (as others have pointed out) from gurren lagann's ending.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMk8H_ymVVE

Also, apparently I didn't explain myself well, because you misinterpreted my statement. The daughters of aku are aku's daughters; they're people, but people born through magical means (the DNA they had to have from normal conception was substituted for aku's magic essence/symbiote-style goo). Without aku's presence, there's nothing holding them together on a physical level, they'd be a half a mixture (of their mother's genetics). Killing Aku's daughters wouldn't kill Aku on it's own, but would be a necessary step; aku basically made a liche's phylactery without realizing it.

>>92589734
But there wouldn't be any suffering since he killed Aku in the past. The Jack that got sent to the future should never have seen Aku since Aku died one minute after he was sent.

>>92589821
Oh, you meant that in the time paradox kind of way. I thought you meant Jack kills Future-Aku and stays there.

>people are now actually trying to argue that Ashi died rather than fading from existence because of time paradoxes

The finale was fine for a fun cartoon that started off as a show for young kids, but let's not pretend that time travel in tv shows in general isn't fucking retarded.

>>92589702
Timelines are mutable in samurai jack, you change shit in the past and the future adapts.

No loops.

>>92584688
>time could not send him to the future as he wasn't originally from there so there's nothing to rectify
Aku was killed AFTER sending Jack to the future, your comment is pure idiocy.