Explain to me /co/, how was he in the wrong?

>>92529272
He wasn't.

>>92529272
In which argument, the accords or Bucky?

>>92529272
His intentions were okay, and the Accords weren't a terrible idea but as is always, it was implemented and enacted in a very stupid way. Just as Steve said, people have agendas and agendas change. The whole thing was unreliable. Bucky was indeed framed and the HQ was INFILTRATED BY THE VILLAIN AND SHUT DOWN. Ross was obsessed as shit with capturing Team Cap and wouldn't listen.
Even Tony violated the Accords once he realized the truth. Because they're useless. Putting the Avengers under the charge of a group like the U.N. would just make them worthless. They wouldn't be given permission to actually help anywhere.

>>92529272
he was fucking wrong and so was the women
he was wrong to create ultron he was also wrong to bend under the pressure of guilt
the women was wrong because even if her son died because of tony's actions the him and
the avengers save thousands of lives that day, they even lost one of their own in the conflict.
her son died yes but how many sons fathers, mothers and daughters did the avengers save?

>>92529314
ross was on the board that wanted to nuke new york in the first avengers movie. fuck him

>>92529314
the UN is corrupt, they made Saudi Arabia the head of humans rights council. and thats real life

>>92529272
Leave the UN in charge of anything, least of our all the world's primary Superhero team?
Have you ever fucking looked at the Security Council?
They don't do fucking anything.

>>92529338
I don't remember him being on the board but yes, fuck him. When discussing Civil War, people always seem to forget Ross's history of obsessively and relentlessly hunting the Hulk like a fucking maniac.

>>92529365
the UN has know connections to drug cartels, and sex trafficking. did i mention the human rights commission

>>92529338
>>92529333
Pretty much this. Stark has good intentions, he also did when he was a weapons-salesman, but he puts his trust in complete dickheads and makes fatal decisions based on his own fear and guilt.

He was guilt-tripped into approving of the accords, he was spooked into building an insane killer AI with "borrowed" alien technology. He decided to work with Ross because he couldn't handle the consequences of the mess he'd made, a pants-on-head retarded choice on his part.

He's a technological genius while simultaneously being a mentally unstable idiot A dangerous combination. .

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>>92529314
>more government isn't a terrible idea

>>92529443
Did you just stop reading there or something.

Well he's in the wrong because the only thing that needs to be controlled by the UN is Tony himself.

>>92529272
Because he blamed the team for his own fuckups. The only one who should be under lock and key is him.

He is neither right nor wrong, but a nation that can't reign in its superpowered vigilantes is a failed state.

He was not wrong, but his position made him an inevitable obstacle for Steve, especially after what had happened to him with shield in winter soldier. They could be really good friends but Steve's difficulty adapting to the modern world and it's conflicts almost always put them at odds.

>>92529862
How about Bucky? Isn't it reasonable to want to bring him in when he's still unstable and dangerous?

>>92529272
Because at the very end of was shown that Bucky was being miknd controlled so Tony was in the wrong.
I was so missed when that happened. The trailers actually made it seem like this movie was going to have a conflict driven by opposing world views which could both be viewed in the right depending on the viewer's on subjective views.
But nope, mind control. Tony wrong captain good. I mean come the fuck on, the trailer shows Bucky trying to shoot Iron Man in the face and then they just have him be mind controlled so it wasn't actualmy Bucky?

Also the fuck was that final fight? Stupid mind control turned what could have been Tony trying to kill the murder of his killer and Cap throwing everything away so he clould grab into one last fragment of his last.

Instead it's Cap trying to stop an enraged Iron Man from killing his innocent friend.

>>92529901
>They could be really good friends but Steve's difficulty adapting to the modern world and it's conflicts almost always put them at odds.
Isn't it more a question of Tony disliking Steve from the moment they met, due to his own daddy issues and being jealous?

Also,
>He's my friend Tony
>So was I.

What the fuck did he mean by this? Did Tony really think they were actual friends?. At best, they were colleagues who disliked, but respected each other. Tony himself didn't even believe Cap when he said he would miss him by the end of AOU.

He was in the wrong because he didn't do this
>hire Bucky to kill someone, all the while not showing him that you want him dead
>secretly hire a sniper who would kill Bucky afterwards
>frame Hydra for it, all the while tracking down anyone who can shed the light on what really happened

Tony wanting to give control of the Avengers to the UN because a single mother guilted him was stupid. I don't blame Tony Stark for wanting to kill Bucky. Whether he was mind controlled or not, he still killed his parents. Cap knowing this and not telling Tony was a dick move

But why didn't Tony do the same thing Baron Zemo did and go through all of Black Widow's released Intel to find out who killed his parents?

>>92530000
That's the only truly wrong thing he does in CW. Before seeing the footage of of Bucky choking out his mom, Tony was one board with helping him and Cap.

>>92530130
>hire Bucky to kill someone
Bucky's not an assassin for hire, are you retarded?

>>92530117
I think they were friends. Maybe not perfect for each other, but I imagine saving the world a number of times with the same people makes you feel some sort of closeness to each other.

Also I would imagine their initial misgivings about working with each other in the first avengers movie have faded by now.

>>92529914
Bucky was okay living a paceful life, Did you even watched the movie?

>>92530338
Until it was shown that he is clearly still able to be mind-controlled into shooting someone point blank in the face with a few words.

>>92529338
No he wasn't.
You're thinking of the (then) unnamed World Security Council Member played by the late Powers Boothe, who was later identified as a Hydra leader named Gideon Malick in Agents of SHIELD

>>92530000
>Because at the very end of was shown that Bucky was being miknd controlled so Tony was in the wrong.
Does it really make sense? Someone who can't control himself is even more dangerous, even if less culpable. And they seem to agree on that and froze him.

>>92529272
>its totally our fault all those like 20 people died you guys
>we should defiantly follow the orders of the government instead of doing our own shit
>what nuclear missile aimed at a major civilian population?

>>92529914
Except they didn't want to bring him in, they straight up issued a kill order, while expecting Cap to stay away.

>>92530443
supposed to be definitely

>>92529442
>He was guilt-tripped into approving of the accords

He was also guilt tripped into becoming Iron Man.

Stark didn't have good intentions when he was a weapons-salesmen. He didn't give a shit where his weapons ended up, he just wanted to make money and be a hot shot.

Then he got gut checked when all of his half-assed wheeling and dealing came back to haunt him.

>>92529314
Been a while since I've seen the movie but wasn't Ross all for it just so he'd have the Avengers as his own personal attack squad?

>>92530286
They were still bitching at each other in AOU,even after saving New York in the first movie. Remember the wood chopping scene? The multiple times Tony implies Cap is an idiot for not agreeing with the creation of Ultron, the multiple times Cap is obviously annoyed and tired of Tony's childish bullshit? Their conflict with each other has been building up until CW where it culminated in an actual fistfight.

If they were ever friends, I still only see it as a relationship that was created out of necessity, because they're on a team and they have to work together and show mutual respect. I can't imagine MCU Stark or Cap ever sitting down together to have a beer or watch a movie without the rest of the team being present.

>>92530467
Stark wanted to bring him in, he said he would be treated fairly despite what Ross wanted. Is Bucky more important than the innocent lives he might be controlled into murdering?

>>92529272
>Avengers should be allowed to do what people want them to do only after buncha Jews in suits they don't know would debate if they should get green light
If Accords were implemented during Chitauri invasion, they would've nuked Jew York and we wouldn't have gotten Daredevil.

>>92530492
>They were still bitching at each other in AOU

Tony bitches at everyone though. Especially those close to him. If you're not close to him he doesn't even give you the time of day. If he's concerned about you enough to bitch then he cares. This is consistent through all the movies.

>>92530516
When did Tony say that?
Because as I recall, the CIA/German police figured out where he was (or were tipped off) and sent a heavily armed team there.
And Sharron, then working for the CIA warned Cap that they had orders to kill.

Also don't forget that Ross threatened to throw Tony in prison the moment Stark showed any divination from what Ross wanted.

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He wasn't

>"Hey guys, pretty much every nation in the world got together and decided they're not cool with a bunch of super-powered foreigners led by a guy whose geopolitical knowledge was frozen in the 1940's just bursting into their countries whenever they see fit and operating on no ones authority but they're own, so they want to implement a minimal amount of oversight to ensure local authorities are at least kept in the loop wit-"
>"NO TONI, U MOVE!!!!!"
>"Steve, this isn't even my idea; I'm just telling you what literally every country on Earth has already agreed t-"
>"FUK U TONI; I'M GONNA GO N' BEAT UP A BUNCHA GERMAN SWATT TEAMS INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING TO U WAT HAPPENED WIT MY FRIEND WHO KILLED UR MOM!"

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>>92530484
Didn't Tony genuinely believe he was doing good pre-Iron Man though? Providing the American military with better technology to fuck terrorists? He got all ass-pained about it when he realized Stane had been dealing under the table.

But yes, his main motivators are guilt and revenge, not a good setup for reasonable decisions.

>>92530605
Given what's known about Bucky I could understand them sending a heavily armed team there. But giving them orders to kill on sight instead of if need be was too much.

>>92530117
>>92530492
A few months after the movie was originally released someone here came up with a possible explanation for that.

I forget the finer details, but it was something about Tony being a bit of a social retard, the way a lot of rich people are, who mistook a respectful work colleague (whom his father talked about endlessly) as a friend.

>>92530618
It's scary to think that if Iron Man was released today people would've been enraged.

>>92529408
>the UN has know connections to drug cartels, and sex trafficking. did i mention the human rights commission

Alright boys of /co/ how do we become heroes and take down the UN?

>>92530612
tony pls

>>92530145
because he knew tony was a emotionally stunted social retard that would go ape.

which he did when he found out

>>92530678
That's what I always took from it. If people aren't directly shitting on him (like his father did maybe), he thinks that must mean they probably actually like him. Hell, he thought Obie was his friend.

Tony is a bit of an autist when it comes to actual meaningful relationships and showing genuine emotion in front of others.

>>92530763
I intend to sit at home and eat doritos until I accidentally eat a radioactive one that gives me super powers.

>>92529272
Anyone who sides with Ross and shadowy government councils is automatically wrong

The movie conflict just became all about Bucky anyway

>>92530832
If Tony has been presented with the knowledge of how his parents died at another time and under less stressful circumstances, he might not have gone apeshit. Cap himself admits he did wrong by not telling Tony.

>>92530910
>The movie conflict just became all about Bucky anyway
Which was a good choice, making the conflict resolve around personal matters rather than retard politics like the comic.

>>92530918
But he might have also put on an Iron Man suit, blasted off, and use whatever AI he has this week to hack into everything until he found him. It really could have gone either way.

>>92530874
>>92530763

I'm going for the super power called money.

Tony's side was wrong in every iteration of Civil War simply because the actual registration was done half-assedly every time. It only affected street level shitters instead of holding heroes with actual globally threatening powers responsible for anything.

>>92531282
>It only affected street level shitters instead of holding heroes with actual globally threatening powers responsible for anything.

DESU thats kind of how it would happen period. Imagine registering anyone carrying the fucking Phoenix.

>O-oh it says here you can uhh...blow up a fucking galaxy?
Yes.
>Well..um...don't do that...because if you do we'll...lock you up?

>>92530993
It probably could have gone both ways, but it's not as if Tony by the end of CW was still set on killing Bucky once he'd calmed down from his initial shit-fit. He's not THAT unreasonable.

>Brings Spider-man to a fight with people way above his paygrade
The fuck was tony thinking?
I'm glad he realized how retarded of an idea that was and told Peter to stay put afterwords.

>>92529272
Because it would change nothing for the better. Everyone bitched about accountability but that was never the case. Tony made Ultron despite all the others telling him not to. How would having a UN suit telling him not to do something change that?

Cap fucked up by not calling the cops on Crossbones and countries signing an accord saying "Fuck off, don't operate in our sovereign borders" is fine. The UN lining up to make themselves the Avengers' boss was not fine. The secret detention facility intentionally built in international waters was not fine. The destruction of an entire airfield to stop a guy from getting on a plane was not fine. Child soldiers are not fine. Tony flat out ignoring Ross' call at the end and bucking the authority he fought for was not fine.

>>92531672
Peter was spanking their asses through most of the fight though, and it wasn't supposed to be a "serious" fight. .

>>92529272
I walked away from the movie thinking they were both wrong yet right at the same time

Steve needs to get Bucky's dick out of his mouth though

>>92531722
It was an incredibly fortuitous situation that Pete wasn't shot, stabbed, crushed, or otherwise seriously injured.
You do not take someone with such a small amount of street level crime fighting experience and put him up against professional ex-assassins and other super humans!

If anything, the rest of the Avengers is at fault for not doing anything about the PTSD-ridden, dangerously unstable tech genius on their team who happens to be very susceptible to emotional manipulation. Natasha was even aware he wasn't all right in the head in IM2 and deemed him unsuitable as an Avenger because of it.

The guy spends gazillions on creating a device so he can tell a simulated image of his dead father he loved him, and no one thinks "hey, maybe this guy needs actual professional help?"

>>92531832
yeah, but spidey is stronger than any of the captains crew, except scarlet witch.

>>92532104
Captain America always beats Spidey for whatever reason.

>>92532104
Didn't Rhodey ask something like "Jesus how old is he?", a question which Tony just made a face at and otherwise ignored.

He knew he was doing something wrong by involving a literal teenager in the fight.

>>92529272
The true ending was that they were both wrong
>Tony folds and tries to agree with the UN for the Accord deal that anyone with a brain knew would just fuck over the Avengers hard (which it does)
>Cap is someone who screams for justice and protection of everybody yet cannot bring it in him to decide what to properly do in a situation where one life he personally values is threatening and has killed tons of others
They were completely boned since they could no longer swing under the radar as they got stronger and more popular. Just hope that Thanos coming doesn't force another big political crisis that lasts for the entire first movie.

>>92530612

It wasn't "minimal oversight" and "just keep people in the loop buddy :)" it was placing the Avengers explicitly under the control of the UN, which is fucking retarded.

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>>92529272
>literally every Captain America movie has been about freedom over security
>the last movie literally confirmed Shield and every other government organization worth a damn had Hydra sleepers in it
>hurr durr TONY WAS RIGHT threads for over a year now
Shame on you, /co/. Cap was right.

>>92529272
They were both wrong desu
Tony was wrong to want to kowtow to the same government that was literally HYDRA a week ago and Steve was wrong for thinking with his dick and how he could get it into Bucky's tight little ass and doing literally everything wrong

He might have been wrong, but he was doing it for the team's good. He wanted to prevent them from being locked up. He tells Steve they'll just fuck the Accords over from the inside if they need to, but making themselves official enemies of the state is counterproductive towards making the public trust them after several Hulk outs and Ultron.

Steve only cared about his butt-buddy, gave no shits about involving Scott and Clint who both have kids.

>>92529338
Just a reminder that one of the shady suits that ordered that attack was Malak from Agents of Shield

>>92533834
>Tony was wrong to want to kowtow to the same government that was literally HYDRA a week ago

A year ago. Remember, the last remnants of Hydra were wiped out in Sokovia by the Avengers.

>>92534377
He didn't force them to do anything.

And Tony was the one that pretty much coherced a teenager into a fight way above his level.

>>92529338
>implying nuking New York would be a bad thing
it's full of freaks and inhumans. the MCU would better off without it

>>92535198
>it's full of freaks and inhumans.

No it isn't. The only enhanced person from NYC is Spider-Man. And he was just a regular little kid when the battle of New York happened.

>>92529272

He wanted to "be held in check" by the people who were going to nuke New York and then blamed the Avengers for minor collateral damage in New York.

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>>92535812
>enhanced

>>92531672
Who the fuck was above his pay grade? Anyone of any threat to Spidey was on his side

>>92531376
Um, all mutants get registered as a rule of thumb. Hope and Jean have been in the system lad.

>>92537201

Hank lives in San Francisco. Not NY.

>>92537206
Wanda? It didn't automatically have to be one from the opposite team injuring him though, Rhodey was fried by Vision.

>>92537201
>enhanced
>>enhANTSed

>>92530376
When will you ever use those words in the same breath?

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>>92537206
>Who the fuck was above his pay grade?

Cap, Wanda, Scott and Bucky (but only if he was in Winter Soldier mode), but only because he's never fought anything beyond the average crook at that point. Mind you, Cap did beat him one on one.

>>92530618
>Iron
Man the scene in Gulmira is so cool.

>>92534377
Cap didn't want to sign and was retiring. Then the UN bomb happens and they put a bounty on his bbf head. Tony didn't believed Steve when he tried to explain the situation. Tony is a retard and Cap was right.

>>92537632
When you're a villain intent on making him kill people for you?

>>92537889
Oh Tony believed him about Bucky being brainwashed, he just didn't give a shit.

>>92530705

It already came out long after the War in Iraq, so I can't imagine people getting any more pissed.

No the accords were wrong for the simple reason that Governments would employ the Avengers to further their own agendas and cockblocks them from acting against their interests.
Go re-watch the Incredible Hulk and The Winter Soldier the government is all kinds of fucked up.

>>92537970
That government was infiltrated by HYDRA, but it shouldn't be after WS and AOU.

>>92537901
This.

Bucky was a walking bomb and since rehabilitation is unlikely he needed to be incapacitated even himself realized hence why he agreed to be frozen. Cap was being emotional and could not just let it go.

>>92538032
The U.S that is. But what about other countries? Remember the Avengers were going to be put under the UN charge.
Also, the US is already a mess when it comes to super humans without Hydra intervention.

>>92538097
>But what about other countries?

They would've probably dealt with their own since all of Hydra's secrets were leaked onto the web. Stern was arrested at the end of TWS because of that. Other people in other countries likely followed suit. Though I imagine some of the less gentle countries probably just had them snuffed not long after being apprehended.

Any who weren't were likely the among those with Strucker in Sokovia. Though they were finally dealt with by the Avengers themselves in AoU.

>>92529272

Bending to Ross is wrong because you put yourself in a position where you are forced to follow orders. Tony even went against it by recruiting Spider-Man, so even he's not completely on board with the idea of the Accords. Early Tony wanted to ensure that his weapons never fall into the wrong hands and this is why he didn't want the government to have Iron Man suits. Now he uses his suit whenever they order him to, which doesn't seem like the right move for Tony.

>Waah my son died
>even though there was literally no other option to stopping Ultron but waah
>Gee I guess it WAS my fault, I must sign the Accords.

>>92538337
Ultron needing to be stopped in the first place WAS his fault.

>>92537411
I think the problem is more enforcement.

You could maybe ask Hulk to sign up and register and agree to this shit, but if he goes HULK SMASH enough and breaks that accord do you really thing anyone'll be able to do anything about it?

>>92529272
He created a sentient murder machine and then blamed everyone else for what it did, instead of turning himself in.

Considering just how good the UN is at keeping peace, yeah, Tony was wrong.

>>92538259
You can't be sure. Corruption present world wide especially in shitholes. I wouldn't be surprised if governments around the world halted the investigation due to Hydra's influence or just sabotaged them, this shit is something that happens in real life.
And also there's still the fact Governments would play the Avengers to their advantages limiting greatly their actions.
>Oh no! a governor in Saudi Arabia is stoning women and children
>loldiplomaticimmunity
>lolborders
>lolyouintolerantshitlordistheirculturerespectit!

>Any who weren't were likely the among those with Strucker in Sokovia. Though they were finally dealt with by the Avengers themselves in AoU.
Ant-Man shows there are still Hydra agents in the while looking to strengthen their forces, so no, they weren't deal with at all.

>>92538337
Ultron IS Tony's fault.

>>92537411
What is signing a piece of paper going to do if the current Phoenix host or any sufficiently powerful mutant just decides to blow up a city? Let the FBI know where they live?

>>92538752
>Let the FBI know where they live?
Well, O*N*E, at least.

IT ain't gonna do much, but lmao.

>>92538752
Gives the FBI freedom to nuke it or to send Mr. Super-Man to break her neck without legal repercussions.

>>92538050
The issue was no one wanted to freeze him or whatever, they just wanted to put a bullet in his head.

>>92538786
Shooting someone in the head also qualifies as "incapacitating someone", anon.

Learn to reading comprehension.

>>92538419
Tony does a lot of stupid shit, but he doesn't blame anyone but himself for his mistakes. He doesn't put Wanda at fault for manipulating with his mind (he considers the vision to be real and wants to prevent it), he doesn't demand the others turn on Bruce for helping him with Ultron. He tells Fury "I'm the man who destroyed the Avengers." and clearly hates himself for it .

>>92529442

This is Tony Stark(616, MCU, etc.) in a nutshell: Means well. Very well, in fact! But his emotions clouds his judgement and he goes about shit the wrong fucking way.

>>92538652
>You can't be sure. Corruption present world wide especially in shitholes.
In the 1st world countries, nah. Those people would get pulled out once the documentation proving they're part of Hydra was found. But in the shithole countries, sure, I could see that. Though those are probably so insignificant that that those who were part of Hydra, unless diehard members, would probably just stop giving a shit.

>Ant-Man shows there are still Hydra agents in the while looking to strengthen their forces, so no, they weren't deal with at all.
You're right on that one. I forgot about those guys.

But in all though, I think Hydra's fingers/heads in all the real major powerful countries were purged. I seriously doubt that Hydra documents factually naming it's members is going to be dismissed. So even when it's not the Avengers doing something about it, you still can't forget that Fury is waging a one man war against the leftovers. He's probably taking care of the ones in the shithole countries that nobody cares enough to do anything about.

>>92537658
>Cap beat him one on one
I don't know if I'd really call that beating him, he walked away as Spidey was struggling to keep a structure from collapsing, it's not like he was standing over a KO'ed spider-man or something like that. If anything the fight ended in a no contest due to both fighters stopping.

>>92539220
>he walked away as Spidey was struggling to keep a structure from collapsing

That Cap caused. He he outsmarted Parker and tactically made use of their surroundings to his advantage and came out on top of the fight. It absolutely counts as a win. Not all fights end with a kill or a KO, which Cap very likely could've done if he so chose to. The match was his, plain and simple.

>>92539108
>In the 1st world countries, nah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

You probably live in the USA you should know this shit does happen in 1st world countries. Also not all shitholes are poor countries without influence. Russia, China, the middle east, India are well known corrupt shitholes and they have plenty of world wide influence

>I seriously doubt that Hydra documents factually naming it's members is going to be dismissed
The whole invasion by former nazis sounds too much like a fairy tail. It's not unlikely people would doubt the veracity of the documents.
The whole deal was akin to a wikileaks happening and god knows how much those get shit done.
But let's forget about Hydra for a moment. What about AIM? the Kree? Mafia? Kingpins and others? The whole MCU is full of evil businessmen and corporations, if it's not Hydra then another evil organization is probably running the business.
>He's probably taking care of the ones in the shithole countries that nobody cares enough to do anything about.
Fury is good but you're delusional if you think he can even get close to completely get rid of them.

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>>92539540
>What about AIM?
They should've been dealt with since they were exposed for conducting human experimentation.
> the Kree?
They haven't even set foot on Earth yet. Unless you're counting Yondu.
>Mafia? Kingpins and others?
Mundane things that have no bearing on the events of the MCU?

>The whole MCU is full of evil businessmen and corporations, if it's not Hydra then another evil organization is probably running the business.
Stark Industries, formerly/partially. Hammer Advanced Weapons Systems, probably liquidated. AIM, rightfully should share the same fate as Hammer (though Captain Marvel rumors have said that it's become a cult, with stock options). Cross Technologies, which either was liquidated or somehow reverted back to Pym. And the likely coming Oscorp.

That's a potential 2 out of 5 there (or 3 out of 6, if you're counting The 10 Rings). Not exactly what I'd call 'full of' at this point.

>Fury is good but you're delusional if you think he can even get close to completely get rid of them.
Well it's not like there's anyone else with the Avengers under the UN's leash. Unless Steve's actually going to go all Nomad.

>>92529272
The whole reason the accords came about was Ultron. Ultron was Tony's mistake, not the Avengers. Why should the whole group have to suffer for one member's mistakes?

>>92539942
Yondu isn't Kree. He even says so himself.

>>92540062
>The whole reason the accords came about was Ultron.
No, it was what happened at the beginning of the movie with Scarlet Witch and Crossbones.
The only people who brought up Ultron was the mom to Tony.

>>92529314
Yeah, putting Ross, a man who's career accomplishments in capturing superhumans includes failing to capture the Hulk for years and openly and actively holds a grudge against him for it, was not a wise choice.

>>92540062
Tony was clearly wrong in AOU, but he's not the one demanding the Avengers be persecuted in CW, that's the UN. In CW he does nothing but try to fix the mess he made while attempting to keep the team safe and together.

>>92539942
>not getting the point at all
Those were just some examples to highlight the fact that the MCU has plenty of evil organizations like Hydra. The ones you named are merely the ones we know about. More and more evil organizations, businessmen and the like will pop up to light once the movies come out, but in-universe they are and will be messing with shit until they are dealt with.

The point is that Governments are way too compromised to be put in charge of the Avengers.

>Unless Steve's actually going to go all Nomad.
Steve doesn't have anything else aside of superheroing. I think it's safe to assume he and the rest of the illegal heroes are still dealing with crime on their own terms.

>>92540087

Oh. I guess I got thrown off by the blue, and him mentioning something about Kree fighting pits in GoTG2. But point still stands, the Kree have had no influence on Earth.

>>92540087
>>92540192
He says his parents sold him to the Kree armada as a slave, but never mentions he himself was born a Kree.

>>92540062
Ultron was created due to several people and things that weren't in Tony's control, Wanda manipulating his mind, Bruce helping him with building the AI, Loki's scepter/the mind stone. But Tony is the only one the others blame.

>>92540062
That was only one of the reasons.

>>92530862
To be fair Obie was probably like a second dad. He thought he was his friend because he acted like his friend. He had open access to his house, brought him pizza, all sorts of nice shit. He just didn't know it was a ruse.

>>92540279
Well, he shouldn't have tried to build a robotized police department for the SECOND FUCKING TIME.
And this time he was messing with forces he did not understand, so yeah, Ultron is his fault.

>>92540062
Tony needs to learn to be a follower and not a leader. Chances are, if a goal is his, it's a fucked up one. Tactical strategizing during the battle is okay, long term goals, nope.

>>92540279
Bruce is ignored in this process because making him upset is an extremely bad idea. Wanda was an enemy agent that didn't know better, and the sceptre shouldn't have been with them anyway. Tony was the only "rational" one out of them all, and he fucked up immensely.

There was an entire JLU arc detailing why Tony was right

>>92540625
This is the relationship him and Cap settled into eventually.
While DownyTony isn't much like comics Tony originally, how he is logical except when it comes to major life choices is VERY like the comics, where he has a history of basing his biggest choices not off what is logical or smart but knee-jerk emotional reactions he experiences and then fully commits to without consulting anyone else in his life.

Emotionally speaking Tony makes the same number of stupid and poor life choices that a regular person does for mostly the same reasons too, but his resources and intelligence allow him to make these mistakes on a dramatically more grandiose level then other people.

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>>92540330
>Obie was probably like a second dad
Obadiah was also the most obvious villain in the world though. His disdain for Tony was radiating off of him. He keeps invading Tony's personal space to subtly intimidate him and constantly uses his father's name as a manipulation tactic, and Tony was just too naive/full of himself to realize it. Even after he finds out Obie had fucked him over and sold weapons to terrorists, he still let him parade in and out of his house.

>>92540723
Wasn't Tony still under influence from Wanda's shit? I'd say he wasn't "rational" because of it, it wasn't like he got drunk and made Ultron, he would have made the choice to get drunk in the first place, he didn't have a choice in getting hit by her powers.

>>92540826
>Wasn't Tony still under influence from Wanda's shit?
No, he merely got a revelation after being exposed to Wanda's magic that suddenly allowed him to manipulate the staff's power.

>>92540826
>>92540886
The effects of this were ignored for the most part after AoU. Then he decided that the best use of a superhuman team was to have them be the at the beck and call of a corrupted governing body.

>>92538419
To be fair, Scarlet Witch didn't get punished for all the shit she pulled in AOU.

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>>92541117
>lost her only family
>feared by everyone
>no chance of a normal life ever again
Granted it's easier to cry in a Stark bought mansion, but she ended in a pretty shitty place.

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>>92529307
He was right about Bucky from the start but for the wrong reasons: while Bucky had no control, that's exactly what made him too dangerous to be free

The Accords were ridiculous: the only time that the Supers were responsible for the damage that occurred, the only time they caused more damage with their intervention than they prevented was with Ultron.

The Sokovia Accords should pertain exclusively to Tony Stark, he's the only one who has made decisions outside of his station that resulted in massive loss of life where none would have happened before.

I mean Vision's argument about a Causality between more Supers inviting challenge is retarded since that never occurred before, the only person it pertains to is Thanos which no one on Earth knows about. Every other MCU Villain has other reasons for why they do what they do, and they all instigate the fights, they almost never do it in response to the heroes

Hydra has wanted world domination, regardless of Captain America's existence
Loki and the Asgardian villains often want world domination of some sort, perhaps with vitriol towards Thor but never because of him
The Dr Strange villain wanted to make the world timeless regardless of Dr Strange's existence
Even the Guardians of the Galaxy villains were generally just bad or targeting the Guardians exclusively

The only villains who become villainous in the MCU due to a hero are Iron Man's: Whiplash (Mickey Rourke) and the true Mandarin in IM3 became assholes and wanted to challenge Stark as their main motivation

tl;dr: Tony is the only hero that should be in the Accords

>>92530485
That was never stated explicitly but you could read between the lines given that he's the guy who started the Abomination program to counter the Hulk

>>92541516
>and the true Mandarin in IM3 became assholes and wanted to challenge Stark as their main motivation

But the true Mandarin didn't even appear in IM3.

>>92541619
I mean the guy who wasn't the public persona but that scientist Fire-power guy

>>92541630
>I mean the guy who wasn't the public persona but that scientist Fire-power guy

Killian wasn't the Mandarin. It was a sham. They were using the Mandarin's name to fuck with Stark and mask their fuck ups with the Extrimis subjects.

>>92529344
This
I don't think they have any room to be making shot calls on the morality of foreign intervention

>>92541752
There is no real Mandarin in MCU as far as we know. When Killian screams I AM THE MANDARIN, he's just making it obvious that there never was any 'Mandarin'. Just some villain figure he made up.

>>92541752
They can say all the shit they want but until they say otherwise in a film Killain being the true Mandarin is canon.

>>92541752
I agree but my point was that the IM3 villain, along with Whiplash from IM2 (both iron man villains) were the only ones to become villainous due to Tony flaunting his power

Hell, even Obadiah Stane has shades of it

Tony stark doesn't even act out of good intentions, he's trying to alleviate his guilt. He's trying to prove to himself that he's a good person. He's made his biggest fuck ups acting out of guilt when Pepper, his de facto moral center, was absent

Tony Stark was wrong because he challenged narrative conventions that keep cape genre going.

Superheroes have no moral complexity by necessity, they embody our fantasy of ubermensch good guys being free to force positive change upon the world if only they were not restrained by silly things like law or chain of command. The same way we adore unhinged cops, unethical physicians or maverick soldiers in fictions.

To challenge their role of force of good laughing in face of inefficient bureaucrats is to bring in consideration why bureaucrats are needed. It's nigh impossible to justify superheroic vigilantism in real world terms so realism is poison for capes it only produces retarded plots.

>>92540723
>Wanda was an enemy agent that didn't know better,
Wanda also never has to be arrested for anything, despite being part of Hydra and blatantly helping Ultron.

>>92541903
Calm down there Nietzsche.

The issue with Civil War is that, while there's not a solid resolution overall at the end, there is an emotional catharsis with the letter that Cap writes to Tony at the end and the phone.
It effectively wraps up their personal quarrel. It negates the tension entirely so everyone can feel good leaving the theater

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>>92541903
Jesus anon.

He flipped out and tried to kill someone who wasn't in control of his on actions.

Which could easily happen with someone using the Avengers to act on their own personal vendetta under the jurisdiction of the Sokovia Accords.

>>92542013
How am I Nietzsche here?

>>92542000
I blame that on Visions intervention, even if it was off-screen.

>>92541903
Nah.
Everyone can be hydra is reason enough to prove tony wrong, no need to act like brian griffin.

>>92541516
>The Dr Strange villain wanted to make the world timeless regardless of Dr Strange's existence
Yes, it was because of the Ancient One existence which in fact is a super and so is Mordo.
In Ant-Man Darren Cross becomes obsessed with the original one.
Ultron himself is a direct product from supers existing.
The Vulture in Spider-Man also exists because of a super.
Abomination was solely made to challenge the Hulk.
Obadiah Stane became Iron Monger to fight off Tony Stark.

Vision wasn't full of shit. Supers do attract challenges.

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>>92529314
At the heart of the issue, Tony knew that the Avengers had terrible leadership/organization and Cap was too prideful to admit that.

Captain America's faith turned into willful ignorance.

>>92542168
Not super heroes though, just the malleability of reality that allows superheroes to exist also applying to less positive people.

>>92542158
And Superheroes themselves can't be? They've got a turncoat who was really into death to West kind of deal and volunteered to dangerous experiment to do it. Is it OK to blindly trust her? What if Tony gets some new (even more) crazy ideas tomorrow? Or Steve's interbellum upbringing kicks in? Or someone else on the team decides that he gets to abuse the system?

The only reason we don't consider it is that, again, we know it's cape genre, and dug deep into our fantasy of benevolent and incorruptible overlords.

>it's a people don't know what fascist means episode

>>92542220
If anything that validates Vision's argument even more.

Crime > Super Heroes > Super Villains > Crime

It's a vicious cycle.

>>92542276
She was just into death to stark, not to west. And the occasional superhero group is more screenable for enemy agents than a group of politicians

>>92542220
What do you even mean by this?

>>92542294
Crime > Super-World > Super-Crime
Superheroes don't create super crime by existing, they're just upgraded cops for an upgraded world. I'm not even anti-regulation, but superheroes existing in no way creates supervillains except in the meta sense that supervillains appear in superhero books.

>>92541516
No he wasn't.
He never would have been "awakened" if SHIELD didn't go looking for them in the first place.
He would have lived his quiet life not hurting anyone.

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>>92542168
But the Dr Strange villain wanted to make the world immortal anyways. He found out HOW to do it by learning the Ancient One's secrets but that's hardly a challenge at the Ancient One

The Ant Man villain is valid though, that's fair

The vulture is a villain because of Stark, not Spider-Man.

The Hulk only goes crazy most days because of being hunted by the military to be used as a weapon, when Banner basically shows that they have no way of weaponising him, they develop the Abomination as a replacement. It wasn't a challenge, it was an attempt to control the Hulk's power

I maintain that Stark and even his Father to an extent are responsible for nearly every "Power invites Challenge" villain in the MCU

>>92541516
>resulted in massive loss of life
Marvel chickened the fuck out and made it so each and every catastrophe had like 100 casualties top.

Just watch the scene in Civil War where they make a summary of damages before the accords are revealed.

>>92542485
>The vulture is a villain because of Stark, not Spider-Man.

Still a villain because of a super hero.

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>>92529272

>>92542364
You're misunderstanding. For some reason you're under the stupid assumption that Vision said that only way for super villains to exist is super heroes existing.
Super crime is inevitable in a universe full of magic, mutates and super technology, but on top of that having super heroes around creates super villains which in turn have different motivations to do evil deeds (vengeance, experimentation, lust for power, challenge, etc), but in the end they started doing so because of a super.

So yea, crime makes heroes, heroes makes villains and villains makes crime, with crime being a constant regardless of the existence of either.
>but superheroes existing in no way creates supervillains except in the meta sense that supervillains appear in superhero books.
See >>92542168
All those are cases of super villains being born because of supers.

>>92542485
>but that's hardly a challenge at the Ancient One
Semantics. Challenge encompassed the existence of super heroes not solely their main motivation to do bad stuff.

The Ancient One is the direct responsible of Kaecilius going bad. That qualifies as another case of super people being responsible for super villains being born.

>The vulture is a villain because of Stark, not Spider-Man.
Tony Stark IS a super hero.

The Abomination was a direct product of the Hulk existing and of course Zemo though I don't think he qualifies as super villain since he's powerless.

>>92542619
Nah, Stark was just a regular old weapons dealer then, nothing super about that.

>>92542747
The Vulture was made after Tony Stark became Iron Man.

He even uses an Iron Man mask in the trailer.

>>92529272
He wasn't.

The movie is pro-bush propaganda, its all plain interventionism shilling.

>>92542573
This will never stop bothering me. The New York incident alone, multiple sky scrapers in the middle of the city during busy hours being blown up and crashed into would have led to thousands of fatalities, But nooo, only 100 something died.

And it's retarded because in Civil War the government and world is treating these incidents as if thousands died anyways.

>>92529272
He wasn't for the most part the major flaw he had was that he didn't have the patience to listen out to Cap in the airport, the 3rd act would be completelly Diffrent if he did.

The problem for the film was that it should have been a moral disagreement for the whole movie with the Acords and iron mans mom getting killed by Buckey

But for the most part it's just a big misunderstanding

>>92543029
Ignoring the fact the body count is a major cop out how the fuck are you supposed to treat an alien invasion or super murder robots?

>>92543029
It's stupid, but an understandable move on Disney/Marvel's part. If thousands died and it was a big 9/11 tragedy, the team making lighthearted jokes afterwards and going out for shawarma would be very off-putting. Stark leading a giant alien trough a skyscraper and Hulk busting up buildings would suddenly have a MOS vibe, likely upsetting a lot of audiences.

>>92543079
>The vulture is a villain because of Stark, not Spider-Man.
No, it's not.

The only instance of this is Tony not believing Cap about the other Winter Soldiers which can be argued as Tony being way too tired of this shit and being convinced Cap will try everything just to get Bucky to safety even lie. He just doesn't trust Cap anymore after they "break out" from the government facility.

Bucky did kill Tony's parents and the accords were going to put the Avengers under UN orders which didn't sit out well with Cap.

>>92543180
>the team making lighthearted jokes afterwards and going out for shawarma would be very off-putting.

How is that not still off-putting? There's no difference.

>>92543215
Because it's funny.

>>92542619
But that's my point: SUPERS don't invite challenge, STARK does.
Because he oscillates between showboating super idiot or Faustian idiot-hero with early onset Alzheimer's

>>92543094
A lot of the comments in this thread and other arguments against the accords and UN wanting more control is based on the fact that very few people have officially died as a result of the Avengers. If the death numbers every time Hulk fucks up or any of the other incidents had been realistic, the knee-jerk reaction with the accords and people fearing the Avengers would be more reasonable.

>>92543324
That's not what I requested from you at all.

I'm not arguing the accords, but how you're claiming it's unrealistic to treat a full-fledged alien invasion and a hive or killer robots like they did because barely someone died. So, I ask you again: How are they supposed to treat those?

>>92529272
memelets are simply incapable of being right

nerds

>>92543215
>No difference
There is though. You aren't shown the deaths, the destruction isn't treated as a tragedy, we're not supposed to think loads of people died as a result of anything the Avengers did.

There is a reason people considered Supes a bad superhero for flying through buildings, but not Iron Man.

One movie made a point of showing the devastation and tragedy of the fight, the other shied away from it to keep with its more lighthearted tone.

>>92529272
He was in the wrong by dragging the worst piece of shit, Spiderboy into the MCU. All because Tony dragged this asshole out of the gutter, the little parasite has been sucking Tony's cock non-stop for more handouts. And because of this, Tony has doomed America by creating more entitled youth who expect billionaires to give them handouts instead of working within their means and doing the best they can to rise above their circumstances.
Spiderboy was completely useless in that airport fight. Tony fucked up hard, because he didn't need that prick at all and now he's stuck with him and has to babysit Spiderboy through all his high school musical bullshit.

>>92543531
Literally how?

We're not discussing the fantasy or super natural aspect of the movies. We're arguing politics, logic, morals and story telling which are completely normal topics for casuals. If you can't keep up it doesn't mean we're nerds but that you're a fucking idiot.

This movie was dumb. Cap is just a selfish asshole who will do anything to protect his boipussi.

>>92529272
The film was unrealistic with the UN and the accords stuff. The UN is corrupt as fuck, they are often regarded as a weak discredited organisation with allegations of fraud and worse against them. Cap was right about them having agendas, Tony seems smart so why didn't he know this too?

I also found it strange how Black Panther wasn't ever questioned. "I'm going to kill Bucky." and everyone not only let him loose but Black Widow even invited him to the airport fight, it seemed retarded on her part, and made him look like a total Mary Sue. They all kissed his ass too much, I think Cap gave him too much respect given that he was willing to smash Stark to a pulp over Bucky.

About Bucky, why didn't Tony, or anyone, just for one second listen to Cap? He's a trusted member of their team, why would he believe the story he was trying to tell them if it was all a lie, or implausible?

Also, that guilt tripping with Tony Stark and the dead kid, Charles. I hate to say it, but they should not have changed the race if that kid was going to be credited with work in East Europe. It was highly unrealistic and looked like American naivety and more enforced "diversity", it just doesn't happen here. The Avengers wouldn't kill him, Ultron wouldn't kill him, the locals would. Even brown looking tourists have to be careful here, we've seen what has happened to the West and so our nationalists won't allow us to become a minority here.

>>92543580
>died as a result of anything the Avengers did.

Uhh, they didn't do it. It was an alien invasion that they did not cause. The only one who was smashing buildings was Hulk, and he already has a body count so.

Ultron on the other hand...

>>92543784
>not doing anything to ensure the safety of your waifu
You're dumb.

>>92543784
But at least he didn't drag literal children into the fight. On top of that, he refused to listen to Captain America's side of things, despite the fact they had worked together for a while.

>>92529272
He was wrong in the assumption that an international governing body would have the best intentions in mind for the Avengers.

>>92543909
>millenials think 16 years old are still child
No wonder why all of you are disgusting man children.

>>92541848
You havnt watched the short that happens after IM3 have you about the actual mandrin?

>>92543935
>Underage thinks he's an adult
You have to be 18 or over to post here.

>>92529338
It's been implied that Ross is to blame for Hulk being on the Grandmaster's planet. There will be a tie-in comic with him and Abomination coming back.

>>92539942
You may be forgetting The Hand, which has been putting sleeper agents into governments and corporations.

>>92543962
>underage claiming adulthood despite it being painfully obvious they just discovered the internet a week ago
18+

>>92543909
Iron Man was a selfish dumbass too, I'm not contesting that.

>>92543935
Parker had all the emotional development of a mollycoddled 7 year old. He was acting like he was just having a playdate at the Chuck E. Cheese. This was a serious situation, and he can't see past, "wow my favorite heroes are here!"

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>>92543684
>the little parasite has been sucking Tony's cock non-stop for more handouts
>Now he's stuck with him and has to babysit Spiderboy through all his high school musical bullshit.
Kek. Why you hate Spiderboy so much though? .

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>>92543706
why are you taking him so seriously?

>>92544094
Boredom and venting.

>>92529272
For such a genius, he sure is an emotional retard.

>>92538032
>I'm sure the government that got cucked by HYDRA a year ago is perfectly competent to police superheroes

>I'm sure the UN that puts Saudi Arabia on Human Rights is qualified to decide what is moral

Are you high?

>>92544052
None of them (with a few exceptions) were taking it very seriously until War Machine got shot down. They were throwing jokes left and right at each other.

>>92544088
It's because of what he represents. It's blatant glorifying of socialism. What kind of hero needs to have everything handed to him on a silver platter? The spider bite? He didn't do anything to earn it. He also didn't earn the costume and access to Tony's money.
He shouldn't be allowed to be reaping the benefits of someone else's work, because that's laziness and parasitism in its purest form.

>>92543794
T'Challa had diplomatic immunity that's why he got out so easily.

>but Black Widow even invited him to the airport fight
I assume Widow thought of Bucky of a dangerous annoyance that's better off dead, but this is all speculation from my part, the real reason was that they needed super powered people to fight Cap's team.

> I think Cap gave him too much respect given that he was willing to smash Stark to a pulp over Bucky
Cap is a decent person the dude lost his father because of Bucky. It would've been hypocritical to bitch about >don't kill muh friend!!!!.

>why didn't Tony, or anyone, just for one second listen to Cap
At that point it was obvious Cap was willing to do anything to save Bucky.

They had just "escaped" the SHIELD building so they must have assumed lying to get Bucky's ass safe wasn't out of the question.

And in the MCU world all Eurotrash is fond of their african american peeps.

>>92544272
The quips don't count because they are standard for the MCU. They were quipping around during Avengers 1 and Ultron, but that doesn't mean they were taking it seriously. Peter was the one who was trying to get buddy buddy with Captain America who he was told was an enemy combatant. He lacked the discipline to remember his orders and failed the job Tony hired him for.

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>>92544222
>Are you high?
Actually, yeah, I am. but still the MCU UN isn't our UN either.

>>92544373
doesn't mean they weren't*

They were taking it seriously.

>>92544052
Exactly.

His generation is beyond cucked. It was an accurate representation of the average person from his age group.

>>92544297
>>92543684
JJJ please.

>>92544207
Was it autism?

>>92544380
Yeah, it's worse. I heard the Japanese representative is from the Hand.

>>92530705
because of the terrorists?

>>92530145
>But why didn't Tony do the same thing Baron Zemo did and go through all of Black Widow's released Intel to find out who killed his parents?

Apparently Tony was busy doing other things, like taking on hydra, building avengers bases, he has a life outside of what took zemo two years to do.

You say it like "if tony wanted to know who killed his parents, why didn't he look for it?" Cause he never knew it was anything but a car crash. Zemo didn't know what he'd find either. He found something that could lead to Tony wanting to kill a man that Steve would protect.

>>92529272
Well depends. His concerns were all valid, but the accords didn't actually fix any of them.

>>92537964
Yes, but today's people are muslim cocklovers.

>>92544432
And that's precisely why he's a kid who has no business being in the middle of any government operation. Tony should have known better.
>>92544494
You joke, but it's the truth. It's more propaganda pushing for government dependency instead of self reliance.

>that part where Tony sodomizes Peter to "prepare him" for the fight
I believe he was right.

>>92544576
>"Hey Friday, run a scan through the Hydra files to see if there's anything relevant to me."
>"Right away sir... Sir, there's mention of your parents."

>>92544654
Well, Tony is known to make awful decisions, so...

>>92544624
Tony only kills terrorist scum. Nobody likes terrorists. You can burn people alive with actual flamethrowers and still come out the hero IF they're all presumed terrorists. That's totally legit.

>>92544717
This is a good one.

Tony is definitely the kind of guy who would ctrl+f himself on Hydra files. If someone has a twitter they should ask this to the Russos.

>>92544717

Yup you got me, that's much better writing than one side generally not having access to others because they're using encryption and them having 1980's technology that's not modernized. They sure should have had tony randomly ask this for no reason and hand the solution over immediately with total ease. God damn, when's your next movie coming out? i bet it wins the oscars.

>>92544826
Arab terrorists are an offensive stereotype of muslims you ciscum! Check your privilege!

>>92544880
Sad thing some people really believe this.

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>>92544841
>gets proven wrong
>explodes into autistic rage

>>92545201

lol, Im not wrong and Im clearly being flippant, but I guess you're too dumb to know what humor is too. Suggesting that iron man magic a solution in seconds for arbitrary reasons is dumb. If you wanna watch movies like that feel free, I think michael bay has a new one coming out this year.

>>92544841
If Tony was busy dealing with Hydra shit then why not go through the files or have Friday do it for him? I would think he or Friday would notice mention of Howard Stark being assassinated. In fact because how such a big deal Howard Stark was I wouldn't be surprised if something like that made the news, even if Tony stopped watching the news because he was so busy blowing up Hydra shit I'm sure someone, some reporter, would have asked him about it. It's not like the files were immediately reclassified five seconds after they were leaked, presumably they're still out there for anyone with an internet connection to look through. Hell, all it would take is someone to think "Hey, was this famous person connected to Hydra?" and then CTRL+F their name. The fact that Cap was able to hide it at all from Tony was dumb as hell. Unless instead of actual names they used code names in every bit of the files. I mean who other than Cap would know who Fondue 1 and Fondue 2 were after reading Winter Soldier killed them?

>>92545337

did you watch the fucking movie? The actual proof is on a VHS tape. He had to dig through a damn frozen outpost to find it.

>>92545377
Both Zemo and Cap knew before finding the VHS tape, only other place that info would be is in the files.

>>92545201
>>92544717
>>92530145
You're forgetting the part where Zemo did a fair amount more than go through the hydra leak.
As I recall, he went after the Winter Soldier specifically because he was the most obvious way of ripping the Avengers apart, once he found out how it is.
Beyond that however, everything in the Winter Soldier program was beyond secret. He had to abduct actual Hydra agents and steal their physical notes to find most info in relation to the Winter Soldier program.
It's not like Hydra would have uploaded the the video of Stark's parents getting killed to the server Black Widow published, since it was a SHIELD server, and they knew from day 1 that Tony would be fucking around with everything SHIELD has.

>>92545404

Cap is shown in TWS. Zemo, clearly had been on the trail of something for a while. We don't know how many people he interrogated and killed. The idea you could CTRL + F and find it is dumb and goes against what the movie showed you.

people actually take sides for civil war bullshit? they were both wrong, zemo made them both be wrong.

zemo put them both in situations where they would get angry and defensive and possibly violent.

>>92537689
Best scene in any of the iron man movies. Arguably one of the best in the mcu

>>92545657
No anon. SOMEONE HAS TO BE 100% RIGHT AND THE OTHER HITLER.

>>92545657
>>92545910
Both are Hitler.

Black Panther was right.

A shame the Netflix show aren't crossing with the MCU.

>tony tries
to recruit jessica only for her to lash out at him and throw him out of the bar

>>92545315
>Suggesting that iron man magic a solution in seconds for arbitrary reasons is dumb.

It's hardly arbitrary given how far HYDRA's reach went. At the very least Tony would have wanted to know if anyone on his payroll was HYDRA, which would have uncovered the whole thing about his parents death being an assassination and not an accident.

Did Cap even know with certainty that it was Bucky who killed Tony's parents? All he saw was a hydra file implicating Howard had been murdered. Winter Soldier was their top assassin, but they obviously had plenty more.

Do you think Bucky ever admitted it to Steve? They both knew Howard, it would be kind of stupid not to, knowing Steve was having a major conflict with his son.

>>92546142
You do realize the point of HYDRA agents is to have so many who don't know who is part of the conspiracy that basically many agents end up killing each other in their attempts to hide their true allegiances, hence why Zemo had to go all over the place to find agents who had any relation to the Winter Soldier program.

>>92545481
Well, you don't need the video, just the file that described what went on.

But honestly I can't remember any instance where Zemo acknowledges he learned about the Starks murders from the files that Widow uploaded.

>>92546401
Yeah, basically what I was trying to say. Guess I got too specific with the video example. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

>>92546491
It's ok, dude. You're not on reddit anymore you don't have to thank anyone.

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>>92546539
On the contrary.
On Reddit, thanking someone is usually just a courtesy.
Here I'm genuinely glad that the first person that pointed out that I used the video as an example wasn't someone who then would take that minor flaw in my explanation and run with it.
Now if someone points it out, I don't need to explain myself, which I am thankful for.

Too bad now I had to explain myself over this.

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>>92546650
S-Shut up and call me a faggot, you dumbass!

>>92529272

Stark wanted the Accords not because they would do any good, but because it was a way for him to relieve his own conscience and pass the responsibility for his actions to someone else.

Which is a very human thing to do and is great writing and perfectly in keeping with his character arc, but puts him in the wrong.

Both sides were at least partially wrong. The Avengers DO need some kind of accountability and someone to answer to, but the Accord were the absolute worst way to do it.

Think of just how many times, in the past 7 years of the MCU, that the world almost ENDED with a disaster that was only averted with minutes or hours to spare. The shit the Avengers deal with can't wait 48 hours for a room full of guys to vote on it and pass a resolution.

The Avengers can't afford to wait for permission, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have hearings into what happened after the fact and lay any blame that needs to be laid where its due.

Like, Wanda should be investigated after the use of her powers killed a bunch of innocent people. That's a fact. But she would have been cleared of charged by any reasonable panel, because if she hadn't done what she did a bunch of people were doing to die anyway, probably even more of them. And if Wanda had managed to throw the guy just a little higher, no one one would died at all, so its not like it was a terrible plan.

>>92546990
Pretty much this.

They should be held accountable for any actions involving civilian death like everyone else, but when the world your inhabit is constantly on the brink of destruction, you can't keep the only people able to save it contained by regular law.

>>92547176

At the same time, its perfectly understandable why the UN would push for such things. Nations almost never have anything to do during world ending events in the MCU. Its got to be pretty goddamn terrifying being the president and hearing "So, according to this pantsless astrophysicist, a war between gods nearly destroyed our world and every single tar in the universe yesterday. That's what happened in London. Good news: our guy won."


So anything that gives them some kind of control over the situation, no matter how token, must be like driftwood to a dying man.

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>>92545910
>this is how most people unironically actually think

>>92547548
The world is simpler if you see everything as black or white.

>>92547325
Thor is not /our/ guy.

He's an illegal alien that needs to go back to Asgard.

>>92547831
Well he did,

>>92546341
And the whole point of Nat going and blowing the whistle was uncovering the bulk of them, hence how winter soldier ended with that one senator being arraigned. Tony could have wanted to know if there were any that were embedded in his company out of curiosity, which could have led to finding out about his parents assassination.

>>92539108
When do we get the Nick Fury spin-off?

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I believe it's said GotG 2 happens before CW, how come this incident wasn't mentioned?

>>92538419

>He created a sentient murder machine
He created Jarvis. Ultron was inside the mind stone, and HYDRA was using him on something. Trying to use the mind stone with Jarvis is what RELEASED Ultron, not criated it. Tony left the program running and Ultron emmerged from it. It wasn't intentional at all (also Bruce helped).

>and then blamed everyone else for what it did
He really didn't.

>>92546142
> At the very least Tony would have wanted to know if anyone on his payroll was HYDRA, which would have uncovered the whole thing about his parents death being an assassination and not an accident.

This is how you want movies to be written? Doing these kinds of mental gymnastics?

>>92548575
>Doing these kinds of mental gymnastics?

How is any of that mental gymnastics when it was literally what Zemo did, except replace "find out if anyone from HYDRA worked for Stark" with "find anything related to HYDRA that would also relate to the Avengers".

>>92547831
But Asgard are allies, anon.

>>92548445
The Avengers weren't involved in that one.

>>92548445

no avengers were there, whats Ross going to do, blame them? He probably blames thor, but thor wasn't there to blame.

>>92548686
>I should do more extensive background checks on my employees
>OMG THE WINTER SOLDIER KILLED MY PARENTS
>the movie shouldn't have happened, I fixed the movie by being mad at who the events took place

this is why you're not a writer.

>>92548995
More like this is why the writers are hacks.

>>92538679
This.
All the MCU villains that were set on their path by the faults or challenges of a hero were all done by Stark.
>I don't want to hear the 'man wasn't meant to' shtick
>proceeds to prove the 'man wasn't meant to' shtick

>>92549295
It'd be funny if every single villain in the MCU was Stark's fault.

>Tony hacked released some SHIELD secret files just for fun
>one of them contained information about Ant-Man
>Cross got a hold of this one and got obsessed over

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>>92542728
The Abomination is a direct product of the Hulk not complying to be a government weapon.
The Abomination was meant to REPLACE the Hulk, to be a 'Hulk' that the government could control.

Zemo was made by Stark in that his family was killed by Ultron which Stark made.

My ENTIRE argument is that the Accords should only apply to one man until other evidence shows itself: Tony Stark.

Of the villains who arise due to being taunted or crossed or created by heroes, they all have a single common thread and that's Tony Stark.

Because Stark is actually a bad person. He's fundamentally a selfish person. Every guilt-tripped action he takes, combined with his showboating, is in service to himself.

Making Ultron is his attempt to put the world in a bottle to make up for what he feels is his inadequacy to protect the Earth (and some of his lingering PTSD, if his vision is anything to go by).
The Accords themselves are only supported by him because he thinks it will absolve him in some way.
He baits both Killigan and Whiplash into challenging him with his assholish personality and flaunting his suit like he's king of the world (which he sort of was).
In Killigan's case, he nearly gets the guy to kill himself with his shitty treatment.
He creates Vulture through his actions as a weapons dealer.

Loki was trying to become king before Thor took the crown.
Red Skull and Hydra were both operating regardless of Captain America.

The only other villain that was created as a result of a hero (and even this is a personal fault of the hero's relationship with the villain) is Yellowjacket from Antman

Tony Stark is legitimately more like a villain than a hero by nearly every estimation. It wouldn't even be hard to create a movie where Stark is just a well meaning villain and the heroes have to deal with all the shitty inventions he creates to sooth his own conscience and convince himself he's a good person.

>>92549402
>Loki thinks he and Thor are good brothers
>Sees Tony Stark being an asshole to all his underlings
>Loki starts to think that Stark is some sort of villain to his underlings and decides to hate Thor

>Red Skull is sneaking around Howard Stark's house
>Sees a paper with the name "Anthony Stark" on it
>Decides to take over the world with the Tesseract.

>>92532505
But wasnt Tony reasoning for bringing Spiderman into the fray to subdue everyone without a fight? He disarmed Cap immediately and without Spideys naivety to ONLY disarm Cap, he could've restrained the other team members easy enough aside from Antman and Witch. Not to say that this was IMs thought process but.

>>92529443
Let's not regulate anything, private institutions have the public interest at heart and certainly aren't legally obligated to place investor profit above all other priorities, including public health and safety.

>>92549831
> He's fundamentally a selfish person. Every guilt-tripped action he takes, combined with his showboating, is in service to himself.
Isn't that just being human though? Being a selfish asshole isn't beneficial in the long run and ends up leaving you miserable, so we try not to be. All 'good' things we do, we do in service to ourselves in some way.

>>92550322
Yeah. He wanted Spidey to stay on the sidelines and web team Cap,

>>92549180
>Thinks the writers are hacks because they didn't have the emotional focal point of the movie tossed away in favor of having a character discover the information on their own in poor context.

Yup, them writers are hacks alright.

>>92551744
And that little cunt bit the hand that feeds him by not doing that. Hopefully Tony straightened him out afterwards, it's obvious Aunt May is too easy on him.

>>92529272
both are right and wrong

Tony is right because frankly the Avengers are Nukes. Wrong because his ego is blinding him to the big picture

Steve is right because just because someone makes one mistake that shouldn't take away their freedom. Wrong because he had his own skeletons in the closet.

At least that my short but sweet version
FIGHT ME

>>92542217

example? The biggest problems the Avengers had were caused by Tony himself

>>92530643

the order in the movie was explicitly to kill on sight.

Cap's goal when he went after Bucky was explicitly to see him brought into custody alive. Pay attention before you try to argue this.

>>92530618
>>92530705
>>92537689

In the first Iron Man movie, when Stark is being attacked at the beginning with the American soldiers there's a part where the camera focuses on the word Stark on one of the weapons the terrorists were using. I think that was legitimately a big part of it. He thought his weapons were all being used by the American military, but the terrorists he saw with his own eyes had somehow got their hands on them.

One thing that rarely gets brought up is how the Accords were introduced. "lmao it's being ratified in 3 days." That means the UN had to have been drafting it long before the incident in Nigeria, possibly even before Sokovia, in secret, and then decided to wait until a politically convenient moment to drop it on them. Couple with the fact that they're expected to read and properly process this thousand-page tome in 3 days, the government was seriously up to something there.