>yfw Max Landis is right about the current state of Harle

muh Harley

>>92466560
Even broken clocks are still right twice a day

He's right a lot but we're supposed to hate him because of that death of superman video and because /tv/ told us to.

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>>92466560
>>92466606
>>92466611
I don't want to agree with him but then he says this.

>>92466598
Vroom vroom
Always stick it in crazy

He's okay and i prefer him as a comics guy over a movie guy 100% of the time even if i'm not his biggest fan

>>92466560
Of course he doesn't he hates anything having to do with the Joker

>>92466560
There aren't many villains that have become any type of hero I really really like, at most, it's a meh or I don't mind. But usually it seems like a waste of time or kind of an insult.

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>>92466560
His opinion on anything having to do with Batman related characters is worth dogshit
Harley Quinn is actually an anti hero and that isn't some modern convention

>>92466668
>he hates anything having to do with the Joker
wtf I love Landis now?

>>92466560
MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX

Welcome to the hourly Max Landis everybody! Check the official Max Landis Youtube channel, check the official Max Landis Twitter and remember to check out Green Valley at your local comics shop! Also be sure to watch Me Him Her, now in Netflix!

Do your part to save original ideas in Hollywood!

MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX LANDIS MAX

>>92466641

>Imagine if Joker was a real person

I imagine a mob of angry cops emptying their clips in the head of that mother fucker

>>92466560
Yes clearly the hot girl in a sea of hot girls became popular with little girls because she's hot Max

>>92466700
>Harley Quinn is actually an anti hero and that isn't some modern convention
>Harley Quinn
>anti hero
Kill yourself.

Landis talks a lot of shit, but the stuff he makes are really cookie-cutter inoffensive nor ground-breaking
He's kind of like Spencer without the shit list of books yet

>>92466700
In what context is she any kind of anti-"hero"?

Just because SOME of the people she kills are scumbags to her or people she knows does not dismiss the countless innocents she's killed or maimed for fun.

Too bad DC isn't ever going to let that happen, why would they let a mediocre writer ruin their second biggest cash cow?

>>92466700
Worth more than yours in any case, you fucking deranged waifufag.

>>92466560
I'm sorry is he talking up Poison Ivy(mass murdering eco terrorist) and Catwoman(violent kleptomaniac) but on the same note denigrating harley for mirroring the Joker?

>>92466760
>why would they let a mediocre writer ruin their second biggest cash cow?
I hope you're not implying that Harley is a well written character.

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>>92466700
>kills people and causes horrific incidents all in the hopes of getting the Joker to love her
>anti-hero

>>92466560
>>92466641
This triggers BTAS fans to death

>>92466707
Ironic shitposting is just shitposting

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>>92466560
I'm pretty sure every villain in gotham is a domestic terrorist max
no need to whitewash ivy and selina because you don't understand what's popular with kids anymore

>>92466760
why not, it's what they're doing now

>>92466560
>>92466641
>DC is fucking retarded and make stupidass decisions
and water is wet

>>92466799
>This triggers BTAS fans to death
No, it doesn't.

>>92466784
Being a cash cow doesn't make you well written.

>>92466805
>whitewash ivy and selina
That's... not what that word means.

>>92466560
>>92466641
Problem is, DC had already gone that route with the rebranded Joker's Daughter. It didn't work, too much edgy shit.

IMHO, Harley should stick to her DCAU origins as an airhead fangirl, who nevertheless was an accomplice of Joker's quite heinous deeds. Not exactly a "scary" kind of character, but not a good person either.

Also, I think Morrison tried to do what Landis discusses too, with Batman ranting about how Harley is the worst because she CHOOSES to be a maniac, without having an actual mental illness excuse or need to participate in organized crime.

>>92466700
Of of the best pieces of Injustice. Harleys redemption arc.

>>92466738
>>92466745
>>92466764
>>92466787
Don't bother guys, this very same idiot tried (and failed) to argue against the notion Harley is a genocidal monster in the Injusticeverse. He's literally insane.

>>92466560

It really is fucking retarded to make her a good guy, they want her to be DC's Deadpool so damn bad but Deadpool has never blown up kids for a joke.

It was even retarded in the Suicide Squad movie when she's meant to be bonding with the more morally ambiguous teammates by telling Diablo he should be proud he killed his fucking family, what the fuck, how's she meant to be any kind of hero or likable to any other character?

>>92466831
it was before people started noticing white people being cast as minorities

>>92466560
I'm actually triggered by how wrong he is
I mean aside from the fact that he is trying to put poison ivy and catwoman above the likes of joker he's also trying to talk down Harley's own burgeoning independence because "duh she fell in love with the Joker, she is evulz"

>>92466857
That's fair, but I'd argue you're using an archaic meaning of a word. Language evolves, and unless you use the more new, and accepted versions of words, you're just going to confuse people, and muddy your own point.

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so he wants Harley to be joker 2.0 or let my weeb show enoshima junko?

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What's landis' opinion on WW
he seems to have fits of serious misogyny from time to time in his work

>>92466834
Harley's first ongoing had the best of both worlds. Harley was shown to have a legitimately insane, doesn't understand the consequences of her actions outlook. Instead she viewed the world as a big cartoon.

So you'd get a panel in DCAU style Harley vision where she hits someone with a big mallet and there's stars around their head but then you'd cut to reality and that person would be bleeding from a skull fracture.
That was actually really clever and even kind of sympathetic because you got the clear picture that something was fundamentally wrong with Harley's brain. So naturally DC doesn't do that anymore

>>92466843
I recognized him, it's that one deranged Harleyfag sperging in every thread about how she dindu nuffin.

So he wants to write Harley like Catwoman is now and like Poison Ivy is written most of the time while turning the other two into "Anti-heroes".

Has he never heard of Gotham City Sirens?

>>92466700>>92466858

To be fair the original DCAU Harley Quinn was more of a victim of the Joker than a villain or an anti-hero, when she was introduced to the mainstream DC comics they turned her into the psycopathic juggalo girlfriend of the Joker and her rising insane popularity the last couple of years or so popularity into DC's answer to Deadpool

>>92466879
it's not that archaic, and still perfectly acceptable to use in that context, especially since the context of its use makes it perfectly clear which meaning you're using

>>92466784
money makes everything better look at batman

Can we please just get DCAUHarley's characterization back?

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>>92466700

>>92466879
You are the only one who started to complain that "it's not what that word means", when everybody perfectly understands the original meaning.

>>92466923
Agree to disagree, I suppose.

>>92466892
So she'd be Pyro?

>>92466953
I don't agree, you're just wrong

>>92466911
he ain't saying he want to write those other like that, but nice try, keep reading stuff, one day you might comprehend.

>>92466560
>characters aren't allowed to change/progress/evolve because I say so.

If it were up to people like him; Agent Venom, Superman luthor would never happen. Theres more than one way to view a character.

In Injustice 2, the Joker says "she [Harley] gives as much as she gets". She's no poor abused victim in that universe either.

>>92466857
>duh she fell in love with the Joker, she is evulz"

"Just because she fell in love with the Joker and kills for him it doesn't make her evil"

>>92466560
>Unironically agree with him
....Fuuuuuu

>>92466892
>That was actually really clever and even kind of sympathetic because you got the clear picture that something was fundamentally wrong with Harley's brain. So naturally DC doesn't do that anymore

They kinda do that with the current Harley comic, where half of it is the modern hero story and half is Dini's DCAU-style story, though now it's done mostly for the shipping stuff.

>>92466930
That'd be misogynistic.

>>92466560
Gais remember when HQ killed thousands of people and kids via DS bombs? To impress Joker so edgy.

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Most basic idea behind Harley Quinn goes to Max

>>92466911
>So he wants to write Harley like Catwoman is now
That was a ruse, Catwoman dindu nuffin, she took the blame for terrorism to protect her friend or something like that.

>>92466889
He thinks she should be the most fucked up one and violent of the Trinity, pretty much Miller's Wondy. He also imagines Superman taking her down by literally stealing the air from her lungs by kissing her. Seriously.

>>92467002
Didn't they write that story off as non canon afterwards?

>>92466745
No I mean she's an anti hero because inside her mind she's doing good but outside observers notice all the crazy fucked up stuff she does in her looney tunes mind

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> Agrees with opinion
> Max Landis
>MFW

I hate how Max Landis thinks his ideas are the shit. His Superman story made me physically ill.

>>92467041
Yes.

>>92466966
You can't think that all you want, bucko

>>92466834
That's fucking retarded. Maybe one or two Batman villains have a mental illness that would compel them to criminal behavior and no one has a need to participate in organized crime.

>>92466845
She didn't tell him to be proud he killed his family, she told him to quit whining about it.

>>92466858
Catwoman I can see, but Poison Ivy has "kill all humans" on her to-do list, on top of being a general psychopath and rapist.

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>>92466560
>>92466641
He's right and he's also wrong.
Harley shouldn't be an anti-hero or idolized by anyone, but then, she shouldn't be scary or an extremely competent villain either.
The best approach you can have for Harley is what was intended for her from her inception: cute goofy inconsquential sidekick for the evil mastermind.

>>92466982
>In Injustice 2, the Joker says "she [Harley] gives as much as she gets". She's no poor abused victim in that universe either.
No he the fuck does not. He doesn't even show up in the story mode.
Also, are we really trusting the Joker to tell the full truth?

>>92466920
>when she was introduced to the mainstream DC comics they turned her into the psycopathic juggalo girlfriend of the Joker


What the fuck?

>>92466834
>Harley should stick to her DCAU origins

Fucking this. Mad Love was basically the perfect origin story for Harley Quinn, stupid girl falls in love with psycho, said girl gets obsessed with him turning evil, and ends up paying the price. Don't fix what isn't broken.

>>92466560
The Joker isn't a terrorist. A terrorist commits indiscriminate violence, to create fear, in the pursuit of a religious, ideological or political aim.

The Joker has no real aim.

>>92466903
injustice Superman is pretty evil
Yet you still see people acting like Harley is literally worse than him because while he is doing what's right in his mind

Harley is only being good because she hates that he killed the Joker and not actually changing

>>92466719
Batman would bring him in

A cop would walk up to a cuffed Joker and empty his entire magazine into him

Batman would get pissed but every single cop in the area, every single fucking one would just so happen to have been looking somewhere else

That cop would get the longest paid administrative leave in department history

>>92467088
Also that's an abusers automatic excuse.

>>92466560
Harley was always a "quirky" character, never a serious one. For her to be treated as the horrific Joker-emulator instead of the bimbo slut who gets lucky would be a bigger break of character than anything.

What he describes is Nu52 Joker's Daughter.

>>92467088
>He doesn't even show up in the story mode.
He does.

>Also, are we really trusting the Joker to tell the full truth?
Well, it was all inside Harley's mind, so why would she lie to herself?

>DC haters will agree with Max Landis because he attacks DC
How long before Landis is hired by Marvel? He'd fit in perfectly.

>>92467139
"The Joker" shows up as a byproduct of fear toxin. Nothing he said or does can be trusted, since it was intentionally said to fuck with Harley's head

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Max should just accept it
Harley Quinn is popular because she is funny and irreverent in the way Catwoman used to be but also non gimmicky in the way Poison Ivy can't be because muh plants.

Basically she combines the aspects of a male shonen protagonist but also happens to be hot which generates waifu praise but also attracts women of all ages

She just needs to disappear forever.

>>92466973
Okay, Bruce Wayne gets over the death of his parents and stops being batman.

>>92467145
After Spencer, Marvel won't hire anybody with an ink of SEXIST reputation.

>>92466700
I like "trying to be a good guy" Harley.

>>92466841
Agreed. Though I'd argue Kara becoming another Bat protege was nice too.

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>>92466700
Injustice Harley is the most offensive example of anti-hero Harley.

>willfully helped the Joker kidnap Lois Lane, shoot Jimmy Olsen point blank in the face, and hook up Lois' heartbeat to a nuke in metropolis
>embraced her lover went up in flames and millions of lives were ended
>murder a few cops in cold blood after Superman justifiably executed the Joker
>Batman gladly makes her his sidekick his husbando is dead and she said she's sorry
>immediately hopped back on the Joker's cock when he showed up again nullifying her "redemption"

>>92466799
>BTAS
You know, I didn't grow up with this series, but all this hate on HQ makes me glad I never did.

>>92467173
...That's exactly what he contemplates in the current arc after his alternate timeline father asked him to leave the Bat behind.

>>92467099
The Joker has two aim, to get attention and have his rivalry with Batman to be the stuff of legends that will live for the ages.

>>92467145
>there are people in this very board who will defend ALL DC stuff, even the shit actual DC fans despise

>>92467175
But Marvel will hire anyone who hates DC.

>>92467175
Spencer is still on Captain America after Secret Empire

Max Landis, despite having incredibly thin skin of his own work, is usually right.

>>92467099
If Joker plants a bomb on the street and it blows up he's a terrorist anon
half his shit is poisoning gotham with laughing gas.

How is he not a terrorist

He has good ideas. Too bad he can't write.

>>92467176
You can't be a good guy after you nuke a whole city, no matter how hard you try.

>>92467219
Rebirth was a mistake.

>>92466892
There was also the implication that "Harleyvision" wasn't a result of mental illness, but rather repressing things she didn't want to see.

That being said, the second part of her original solo series is massively underrated.

>>92467111
More like:
>Joker gets located rather quickly because he's a guy with chalk white skin and green hair who can't help but stand out
>gunned down by police as they attempt to arrest him

>>92467270
See? Bitter old men missing the 90s.

>>92467207
I didn't say he contemplates it for a panel, I said he does it. And it becomes batman zeitgeist for the reboot of the time. For a decade, at least.
Bruce Wayne is a guy who got over the death of his parents and stopped being batman after trying it half-heartedly for a month.

>>92466560
I kinda wish he'd appear on BotW again.

>>92466560
So harley quinn played straight would resemble which villain?
I don't think DC has a single truly evil irredeemable female villain

I mean all of them are hot waifu bait on some level.
complaining about harley because she's popular but the trying to ignore killer frost is bs

>>92467173
If it brings back Dick as Batman, then I'm all for it.

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>>92466719
>>92467111
>>92467283

>>92466903
Sounds like Scrapper.

>>92467249
Alright, find me proof DC fans,REAL fans, not companywar faggots like(You), like nuHarley. Go on, I'll wait.

>>92467262
Tell that to Luthor. How many times had he gotten away with trying to kill if not kill/hurt innocent lives in other DC stories, yet still come out looking cleaner than bleach? Least Harley can be legitimate in her attempts, unlike the suit wearing shit grinning corporate "king".

Side note, I also enjoyed Injustice's empathetic Luthor who wasn't amoral.

>>92466560
>>92466641
100% right. Hopefully he gets to write her soon.

>>92466843
>>92466903
*tips tinfoil hat*

>>92467326
>REAL fans
Like you? People who renounced to a normal life in the name of a waifu? Sorry, I don't know any.

Landis must be playing injustice and noticing how Harley is basically the #2 heroic female beside Supergirl

>>92467360
Thing is, we're not meant to agree with Luthor's good guy image. He's transparently a bad guy through and through.

>>92466560
>implying making her fucking scary is any better
It seems literally only Timm or Dini can write her well.

Landis truly does understand characters, that was never his fault. He understands what makes a character tick and approaches the very concept of who they are very respectfully. It's really just the writing that people have a problem with.

His Superman story wasn't at all bad in terms of characterizing Superman and even Lex Luthor.

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>>92466560
Finally someone who fucking gets it.

I think the problem is that Harley is an abuse victim, so it's easy to empathize her and see her as the Joker's victim in all respects. Which is dumb because while Harley is the Joker's victim, that doesn't mean she is not a victimizer in her own right. We saw her getting mistreated by Arkham staff alongside Scarecrow, and while that's wrong no one argues that Crane is a good guy.

I think left-wing ("sjw") types wanted her to be a hero because muh bisexual abuse victim. I think fanboys wanted her to be a hero because muh dick.

I also think that people see Harley's bubbly, goofy, frequently "stupid" personality as indicative that is an innocent - that is, too naive and simple to go head-to-head with the Joker. That's obviously wrong because the woman was a doctor - sure some comic issues suggest that she slept her way through college, but fucking your professors can only get you so far. The fact that she kept her license long enough to be hired by Arkham suggests that even if she did bend the rules in college, she was still clever. And, more importantly, this scenario reveals her tremendous capacity for manipulation and a screwed up moral compass long before Mr.J came on the scene.

TLDR: Give me my scary, funny, interesting female villain and enough of this fan pandering nonsense.

Also - I love his assessment of Ivy and Catwoman.

>>92467374
What the hell are you even talking about now? Speak coherent sentences.

>>92467423
They're hacks.

>>92467439
This is pasta.

>>92467452
Says the buttblasted old man.

>>92467423
What about Karl Kesel? He's the guy who did what this anon said >>92466892

>>92467306
Kinda odd he gives so much leeway to Selena and Pammy but Harley has to be a pure evil psychopath.

>>92467464
over 18 to post on this site

>/co/ agreeing with something being "offsensive"

say it with me

/co/ M B L R

Sometimes I wonder why a character like Harley got so popular with kids and then I see all the other female characters at DC

A lot of them are boring as hell and Harley looks like a diamond in comparison

>>92467464
Alright, I guess you're done trying to actually argue a coherent point.

Harley post-TAS was a mistake.

>>92466641
>I find Abuse Survivor Harley offensive

This is where he fucks up.

Harley is an abuse victim. Some of the things she does is a result of that, some of them are not. It's possible for an abuse victim to be a bad person without negating the things done to them.

Saying Harley isn't an abuse victim is like saying that 99% of the Batman villains weren't bullied.

Attributing all of Harley's behaviour to abuse is cheap, lazy, cause-and-effect writing, but it's not offensive.

>>92467423
Timm wrote her well because the Joker and Harley are inherently different people in his universe. Joker leans more on the crazy in 'crazy mass murderer' than he does on the murderer side. Hell, Robin makes quips and jokes with him. So it's not that weird to see Harley be a bit more cutesy alongside him.

But that doesn't work in a universe where the Joker can transcend being just a goofy mobster with pale skin into some age-old terror of gotham mythology.

>>92467496
Yeah, insulting and unsightly would be better.

>>92467513
>says the NOT MUH anon
Still enjoying the HQ storytimes?

>>92467439
>Finally someone who fucking gets it.

Landis, don't you a legacy to not live up to?

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>>92467423
Tom Taylor is great with Harley
he genuinely likes her

>>92466809
You're talking about King, right? There is a difference between a mediocre writer and a writer who produces a mediocre comic. King k ows he has to put zero effort into batman and it will still sell, stuff like Grayson, Omega Men, SoB, Vision, you can tell he really made an effort, he'll probably do the same with Scott Free.

>>92466799
Why? This is exactly what they want to hear. Atleast I do, and I love BTAS.

>>92467466
>He's a fake fan, anon. Real fans only like Dini or Timm.

Good joke, anon

>>92467466
Kesel writing Harley as legit mentally ill gives you the same issues as abuse victim in that people will use it to absolve her.

>>92467439
Ivy is mass murdering, rapist, eco-terrorist. I mean fits-the-definition-of-terrorist-in-the-real-world terrorist. Everything she does is of her own free will.

>>92467423
>>92467423
Juries still out on Timm
I mean not saying he can't write Harley but he isn't Dini

>>92467538
Not really, considering I can't stand nuHarley.

>>92467551
>hating on based King again
I knew you were a DC hater.

>>92467284
That'd be the Rebirth fans.

>>92467042
So with her mind she would be worthy to hold the Mjolnir with the recent changes?

>>92467581
>eco-terrorist
but she at least has a legitimate reason to why she does stuff and why she can be on the side of 'good' as long as it also aligns with her own philosophy

Harley teams up with a guy who murders people because its funny to him

>>92467587
>>92467603
>reading comics he hates
There's nothing wrong in admitting you like it in the ass, grandpa. This is the 21st century.

>>92467509
I like supergirl but in general I agree a lot of DCs females don't hit that le quirky girl/woman vibe that Harley is

WW is great for iconoclasm but terrible for being fun

>>92467631
I don't read nuHarley tho.

>>92467581
So? Kesel still wrote her as a villain. He gave her a great character pathos, and as the story progressed so did the character. In his run Harley was a villain first and foremost, he was never treated as a Harley, her "Harley-vision" was something that helped get the story going, you were never supposed to sympathize with her but rather understand why she did everything

>>92467594
>Hating
Whoa whoa King is the only reason why Batman is even on my current pull list, I just said that, when you compare this batman to the rest of his body of work, you can tell he's not putting in the same amount of effort as before because he doesn't have to, Batman is going to be DCs top seller regardless

>>92467464
>>92467464
>pasta
I...literally just wrote this.

Reminder that the Joker she cucked big time wasn't the real Joker, but a rabid fanboy of Harley's.

>>92467670
>backpedaling
Like clockwork.

>>92467676
Copypastas are usually written by autists, yes.

>>92467682
Aaaaand you're out. See you in 24 hours, chum.

>>92467016
So is that a new book from Stjepan or he just wanted to make a story about Harley?

>>92467670
Nice job taking the low quality bait, idiot.

>>92467720
>>92467727
>announcing your reports
You're out, indeed.

>>92467722
I'm sure BTASfags will love Sejic's fanfics.

>>92467698
What I pray happens:
>The three "real" jokers in the current timeline all converge on Harley and proceed to break her down, telling her she was just a puppet he used and that he got bored of her.

>>92467722
An idea that Stjepan does in his spare-time. Although I'm starting to suspect that he's trying to pitch that to DC which I wouldn't mind if it gets officially released

>>92467099
The last arc we see joker, literally the last arc we see him destroy almost the entire Gotham City. How does that NOT make him a terrorist?

>>92467766
Sejic pls

>>92466641
>muh realism
You're a fucking faggot Max, always have been, American Alien was carried by artist and fuck DC for enabling your fan fiction.

>>92466845
Isn't Lobo DC's Deadpool?

Idk harley that well but the mentally ill schtick and the joker crony schtick didn't give me a good impression and what this guy is saying sounds pretty boring.

>>92466560
>Max Landis is right about...
no

>>92467619
MUH PLANTS is not a legitimate reason to commit mass murder. It certainly doesn't excuse the extensive use of mind control for personal benefit either.

>>92467666
I'm not knocking Kesel's run, just saying that focusing on insanity will get you the same results as abuse victim.

>>92467581
>Ivy's bad

I never said Harley was bad - only that I agree with the OP.

>tragic
Yep.

>misguided
Eco-terrorist.

The only legitimate point you made was Ivy being a rapist since there was no "greater good" ulterior motive to that.

But Ivy's ecoterrorism is an attempt to do the right thing - she's fucking insane and obviously that's wrong - but it's still well intentioned. She's like Rorschach in that respect.

I'm really tired of people saying harley was an abuse victim because she knew the joker was a fucking crazed murderer BEFORE SHE BECAME HARLEY QUINN

That's like saying she was a shark bite victim by jumping into a pool full of sharks. While obviously yes, that is true, it's 100% her fault. It's not at all equivalent to people who get bit next to a beach.

This is something she had full control over and she just simply decided to be abused.

>>92467085
>The best approach you can have for Harley is what was intended for her from her inception: cute goofy inconsequential sidekick for the evil mastermind.
I pretty much agree with this. Harley really doesn't stand up too well on her own as a main character. Except in special cases like the injustice comic where normal canon is being thrown out the window anyways.

>>92466668
>he hates anything having to do with the Batman
Ftfy.

>>92467832
Me, I'm really tired of people discussing capes like they were the classics of literature.

>>92467825
I didn't say it was a legitimate reason to murder, i'm saying it's a legitimate reason to THINK murdering is ok

It's much more understandable than murdering for jokes

>>92467777
Wasted quads on this, not even able to shitpost properly. Shame on you.

>>92466889
Can you give an example? Like are we talking "bitches and whores" coming from the mouths of characters who are supposed to be misogynistic in-universe, stories where most of the women fit into unflattering sexist stereotypes, plots that seem to center around the idea that women can't be trusted, women being put in their place through sexual situations?

I've seen him lose his shit about female leads before, but I don't know if that's just him being unable to moderate himself in public or if there's something a bit more deep-seated. OP's tweets seem fair enough.

On the Ivy thing I wonder if her and swamp thing have anything together.

>>92467707
>autist
>for posting a legitimate response

Man I miss the days when /co/ could actually discuss comics without people trying to show how "detached" and sarcastic they are.

Newsflash dude: You're on 4chan.
>>92467825
>because I disagree with it, that means the person doing it isn't doing what they think is right

Nobody thinks Ivy's right - but Ivy thinks she's right, and that's why she's misguided.

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He made a good point about how fucking trigger happy both Marvel and DC were with regards killing off and reviving characters.

>>92467877
I forgot what comic it was but it was pretty recent and it showed that Ivy basically loved and highly respected Swamp Thing

>>92466700
Dini intended her to be an antihero that did silly and cutesy stuff in grander DCU but I doubt any single faggot saying otherwise and Max have actually read what Dini did.

>>92467041
It's included in the most recent trade paperback of Batman: Harley Quinn.

It's canon.

>>92467832
Harley making a bad decision doesn't negate her status as an abuse victim, it just makes her naive.

>decided to be abused
wew
>>92467864
This.

>>92467859
>>>/tv/

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Why doesn't Batman just rape Harley Quinn?

Seriously, if there's any female villain Gotham who deserves to be raped, it would be her. And I'm not of that pussy drugged rape, I'm talking about the violent rape with a several punches and kicks to the body. Hell, throw in some face-fucking, that would teach her not to be a homicdal maniac.

>>92467176
Good Lord. Who the hell us writing this shit? It sounds Batwanking as shit.

>>92467749
I didn't do anything of the sort tho.

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>>92466560
Harley is a character from a (very good) children's cartoon. Kids understood that she was not someone they would want to be and that her crush on the Joker was pathetic, but they could still enjoy her.

There is this idea that audiences are really stupid and they don't get something unless it's pounded into them. So if Harley is pathetic and unhealthy then everything written about her must remind us of this or we don't get it.

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>>92467832
She knew the Joker was bad but she fell in love with him.
That doesn't mean the abuse she suffers isn't meant to make her sympathetic because she was asking for it by falling in love with an evil clown.

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>>92467934
>>92467869
>REEEEEEEE

>>92467883
>Newsflash dude: You're on 4chan.
But not on yours, grandpa, when all people was wonderful and comics were high literature.

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Will Max get triggered when Harley joins the Justice League for real

>>92467912
Huh how interesting.I thought Swamp thing being more or less neutral would dislike Ivy for messing with plants.

>>92466560
Nope. While current Harley is shit, what he proposes would be just as shit.
Like other anons said, the best is the Harley that is right on the edge, like Dini/Kesel Harley.

>>92467928
She decided to be abused in the same way that person jumping into a shark tank got bit

She knew who she was going to ally herself with a crazed mass murderer

>>92468014
BTASfags on suicide watch.

Another bad thing about Landis shit idea is that it throws Harlivy under the bridge in a time when they are clearly in danger and in need of some good writing

>>92467905
wonder woman died?

Max Landis was also "right" about Superman, look how that turned out.

@92467992

You're not even worth of a (You)

>>92468062
Harlivyfags forever on suicide watch.

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reminder that /co/ was pushing for antihero harley before literally anyone

>>92468062
Harlivy was always meant to be casual sex between friends, as Harley would always go running back to the Joker

>>92468014
Injustice Batman is basically able to do whatever he wants
beats brainiac
beats superman
let's harley join the JL

Must be nice

>>92466560
>>92466641
I think Max is a faggot, but I agree with this 100 percent. The only reason they turned her into an anti-hero/hero is the same reason Venom and Magneto did. They're popular characters and it's easier to create mainstream titles and merchandise around anti-heros than all-out villains.

>>92468128
>/co/ past come back to bite them

Hilarious

>>92466641
Yeah, I could be okay with abuse survivor Harley but she'd need an actual redemption arc for that. Not just "she still violently kills people without any hint of remorse but it's okay turns out she only targets bad people because reasons".
More to the point he's right that she's more entertaining as a villain, but she's always been framedas a sort of "victim of circumstances" villain. There's a point where you have to either fully reform her and not go back or you just forget the victim aspect and embrace her as a genuine psycho bitch.

>>92468090
In the mid 90's, yeah.

>>92468109
Sissy. No wonder you whiteknight Harley.

>>92468128
BTASfags confirmed for hypocrites.

>>92467056
>Batfag

>>92468163
I think he's a massive faggot but if he's right, he's right.

>>92466560
>>92466641
I have no idea who this is, but I completely agree with what he is saying here.

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>>92468128
taylor and dc actually canonize /co/'s fanfiction, and nu/co/ is mortified

you can't make this shit up

>>92466560

Poison Ivy is a walking date-rape drug. How is that "tragic and misguided?"

>>92468128
which makes their sudden turn on her because she got popular even more hillarious
suddenly its "bad" and she shouldn't be so popular

Harley is a prime example of its popular now it sucks syndrome

>>92466560
The biggest problem Harley has is anti-Harleyfags who ignores how Timm and Dini wrote her in the original series.
She's not a remorseless sociopath, she's not an innocent victim but she is undeniably a sympathetic and ,dare I say it, Fun character.

>>92468090
Maybe he meant Artemis?

>>92468219
>>92468128
Saved for any anti-Harley thread from now on.

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>>92468219
but the real crime here is that I only have three of these pics

>>92468251
>a joke comic has a deep meaning
Are you retarded, son?

>>92468224
I don't know much of Ivy's history so I don't know how its tragic but its obvious how its misguided. She wants to save the environment. She thinks she is doing right by the universe.

>>92468142
But that doesn't mean they should suffer from shit writing.

Like in Injustice 2

>>92468256
>anti-Harleyfags who ignores how Timm and Dini wrote her in the original series
Considering how toxic timmfags are, ignorance is bliss.

>>92466845
>never blown up kids for a joke.
Neither has Harley
>B-But muh non-canon one shot!!!
Is non-canon as decided by DC comics.

>>92466811
>DC is fucking retarded and make stupidass decisions

Fuck off Landis, no one wants coke whore with battered wife issues. You might be able to get away with other characters, but Harley is about as untouchable as Batman now.

Harleyfags are truly the worst of both worlds. They are either waifufags who blatantly ignore what has been written in the comics or SJWs who harp on about how abuse is empowering

>>92468306
You're also ignoring the criminally underrated karl Kesel, for which there is no excuse.

>>92468256
Like the time she tried to feed a chained batman to piranhas

>>92468327
>no one wants coke whore with battered wife issues
And no one said that. The people who want Harley to be a Stockholm syndrome battered wife are Harleyfags/Harlivyfags.

>Harley is about as untouchable as Batman now
>literally has her creator writing a Harley/Joker story
You're amusing.

>>92468262
Diana died in Byrne's run for a while. That's why her mom was filling in for her for a while in JLA.

>>92468368
Hey, what about us shipperfags? We only want Harley to be happy with her lovely plant wife

>>92468382
Exactly, that's a fun and cartoony villainous act.

>>92468420
And a sociopathic one too.

>>92468368
>Timm dies at the hands of those gangstas
>there is no Harley Quinn
A perfect world.

>Landis vs Harey quinn's newfound popularity.
Cancer vs Cancer

>>92468436
I guess in the sense that all villainous acts are sociopathic in nature.

the day max landis redeemed himself
i guess its cool to have him back in RLM now

>>92468474
No, stealing isn't sociopathic. Feeding a live person to carnivorous animals is.

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@92468184

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>>92466560
I think that Batman Beyond had it right.

I can deal with a redeemed Harley, if she abandons the persona and just becomes a mostly normal person. That's the best end to her character's arc.

https://youtu.be/2jHwEc0USS4
Reminder that Max Landis' dad is a fucking murderer.

>>92468176
The problem with a lot of the takes on Harley is that they destroy the concept of her as a tragic villain. Not necessarily one you can identify with or absolve, but one whose background is tragic. Harleen Quintzel spent her entire life being not good enough, didn't make it to the Olympics, couldn't get through grad school without sleep with a professor, couldn't have a career at Arkham without getting attached to and thoroughly manipulated by the Joker, so she snaps and becomes Harley Quinn. She does what she wants when she wants how she wants. Unfortunately, she's got some pretty massive dependency issues and needs external validation. So she constantly associates herself with the Joker, who uses and abuses her, Poison Ivy, with whom her relationship is frequently shown as abusive as well, and Batman, who beats the shit out of her for valid reasons but is the closest thing she has to someone looking out for her well-being. It's carried over to her solo series and Suicide Squad, where she is constantly trying to surround herself with henchmen, underlings, groupies, friends, and lovers because she needs other people to hold her up psychologically. Harley Quinn is ultimately the method Harleen Quintzel uses to lie to herself about her failings as a human being.

>>92468128
>waifufags being retarded because it makes their heartdick tingle
What else is new?

>>92467517
He's not saying she isn't an abuse survivor, he's saying that forgiving her sins because she underwent abuse is offensive, which it is.

He's wrong in that Poison Ivy is also better as a villain.

>>92468219
>trying to frame canon validating some faggots' erotic fanfic as a good thing
Really desperate here

>>92467085
nailed it

Remember that time Harley smiled off a being that supposedly makes everything that looks at it insane?

Great writing.

>>92468530
I agree with most of you except

> Poison Ivy, with whom her relationship is frequently shown as abusive as well

4 comics in 20+ years count as frequently shown?. What about the others hundred were they are loving and caring? Those not count?

>>92466700
When Cryborg insults Arrow and Dinah to her face I wanted her to slap him.

>>92468302
That kinda goes out the window when not only has Swamp Thing told her that shit isn't cool, but she also regularly does things that do nothing but amuse her and rarely bothers to directly stop things like deforestation or pollution.

>DCfags whine about quips in Marvel movies
>the only two DC characters anybody cares about are Harley Quipp and The Quipper.

>>92468663
Aside from the Harley and Ivy series, Gotham City Sirens shows Ivy as rather callous towards and dismissive of Harley. Harley and Ivy, at least prior to her current solo series, have a surprisingly small amount of appearances together for such a popular ship.

>>92468269
Oh man you have no idea how many people have legit white knight syndrome. Not "oh he defended some woman's reputation on the internet to get dimestore pussy" white knights, but "I can save her from the deep shit she put herself in and then she'll be so grateful she'll love me" white knights. And I mean real women, not idealized 2D waifus.
Dudes do stupid shit when they're infatuated with someone.

>>92468648
That pissed me off too. I would have probably tolerated for the Joker, but not for Harley.

>>92467974
>There is this idea that audiences are really stupid and they don't get something unless it's pounded into them. So if Harley is pathetic and unhealthy then everything written about her must remind us of this or we don't get it.

Doesn't Harley Quinn's current popularity prove this to be true? DC stops marketing her as a horrible person and suddenly she's a girl power icon.

>>92468443
Fuck you. That shit's not even funny and you know it.

>>92468648
No, Johnny Sorrow's face KILLS people, it doesn't drive them insane.

>>92468404
Wanting a character to be happy shouldn't even be a thing. That's not what fiction is for.

>>92466560
wouldn't he run into problems like that writer for spiderman ranting at all the people who wanted him to be married to mary jane again? He wouldn't get to decide what happens to that degree, people want cute harley.

>>92468783
Yeah, but Ivy never hit her or abuse her, she always tried to help her and look out for her well being, she just did it in her own way since she has problems dealing with feeling and emotions

>>92468873
Hey now, there's nothing wrong with wanting a character to be happy if it makes for an interesting story. Shit on a character too much and they become just as stale. Daredevil.

>>92468443
That was Dini you fucking casual

>>92468209
Max Landis. He's the guy who wrote Chronicle, and made this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM

>>92466560
Poison Ivy "tragic and misunderstood"? She's a fucking snuff rapist!

If any character was watered down, it's her, turning her from a vicious sexual predator to a idealistic eco-terrorist.

>>92468930
Abuse isn't just physical or directly demeaning. Ivy is dismissive of Harley, in both her wants and desires, and a little bit as a person.

>>92468509
>stealing isn't sociopathic.
Whatever you say Thief.

>>92468530
Oh boo fucking hoo. Literally 99.9+% of the population isn't good enough for the Olympics and plenty people live fine with menial jobs.
She was good enough to be adequate, but she wanted/needed attention and validation as more than that.

And again, fucking everybody needs validation, that's no excuse to seek it from the craziest people around.

If she was real, I feel like an argument like this would just be enabling.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, but that's hardly any more tragic than when a popstar ODs.

>>92466773
>I'm sorry is he talking up Poison Ivy(mass murdering eco terrorist) and Catwoman(violent kleptomaniac) but on the same note denigrating harley for mirroring the Joker?

Yes?

I mean Ivy is a killer but at least she has ideals, and Selina is a thief but doesn't leave a morgue wherever she goes.

Harley and the Joker kill for TEH LULS. It's not the same thing by any standard

>>92469031
When that person's desire is to be with someone who abuse her and mistreat her can you really blame her? She only wants what's best for her best friend

>>92469042
go read les miserables

>>92468934
But the aim is explicitly for them to be happy, the priority should be a good story, where the character stands at the end is accessory at most.

>>92469081
"Tragic" refers to the character archetype. In Harley's case she pulls from the version created in American tragedies and drama, in that her downfall stems from a flawed self-actualization.

>>92469109
Until she's willing to kill her because "destroy all humans" doesn't have an exception.

>>92469333
Injustice 2 was a deviation of what the pairing is. Even in her destroy all human Ivy will never hurt Harley

>>92466560
>Please give me another gig, DC
>My dad says I'm a great writer

>>92469367
>I haven't played Injustice 2: the post
Your ship was blown to smithereens in that one.

>>92467321

Well hold on, I'm not Scrapper but there are multiple people on this board that don't think Harley is a monster. In my personal opinion she was just manipulated.

>>92469495
Injustice 2 should be disregarded when it comes to Harlivy

>>92466719
He's not black though.

>>92468648
>literally who character tries to make harley insaner
>it does nothing
reminds me of the time Spectre went into joker's mind and got btfo

>>92468774
what do you mean by this exactly?

>>92468854
the insanity of what you see(his face) makes you go brain dead

>>92469553
>Injustice 2 should be disregarded when it comes to Harlivy
Almost everything should be disregarded then since it's been discarded in everything but Bombshells (written by a notoriously tranny-lover sjw, which explains everything)

>>92469087
Nah ideals mean shit
you are still a fucking terrorist killing people
And Catwoman is a theif stealing from people who already live in a shitty city like gotham.

>>92466560
Landis and his edgy bullshit idea would be even more of a disaster for Harley Quinn. The only way that would work is with an Elseworld Harley. If he wants to make a complete monster, make an OC or reinvent some D-lister from the back catalog instead of fucking with an established character.

There are way too many casuals out there who do not read the comics for a straight up monstrous Harley Quinn to work. Stray away too far from the classic Harley and you'll alienate their butts, causing sales of Harley Quinn merchandise to tank.

>>92469333
But you can't make someone who goes on a murder rampage because they stubbed their toe tragic, even if it's unfortunate that they stubbed their toe in the first place. Tragedy needs some meat behind it to actually have impact, otherwise you just have masturbatory artists trying to frame their failure to make manager at McD's and then taking revenge on the HR guy as something I should sympathize with.

I can sympathize with someone failing because they're not adequate, I can't sympathize with them being dicks because of it. I can sympathize with Harley's """tragedy"""" up until the point she decided "fuck it, I'll just be an accessory to murder now because why the fuck not". There's just too much of a jump for me to make here, that's like asking me to sympathize with Kim Kardashian for being objectified sexually.

>>92466560
Why the fuck does literally anyone care what Max Landis has to say about absolutely anything?

>>92469677
Motivation is meaningful as an audience.

>>92469711
Because his dad killed a kid.

>>92466700
She's saner than the Joker, which actually makes her more villainous than him.

>>92469635
Nah, the others can stay since they treat Harlivy with respect. The only other that I'll say that be disregarded alongside Injustice 2 is Palmiotti and Amanda Harley book

>>92469692
>fuck it, I'll just be an accessory to murder now because why the fuck not
But that's not Harley.

>>92469692
Tragic characters don't require you to sympathize with them.

>>92469841
But anon, we all know she's crazier than the joker.

>>92469923
>Muh crazy love
Nah, fuck off cunt.

>>92469886
Yeah they kinda do.

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>>92466560
He has been tainted by this horrible drunken fraud and his word is not to be trusted.

>>92470011
Space Cop>American Ultra.

>>92470052
Space Cop > Tim and Eric's Billion Dollar movie. That's still not a compliment.

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>>92469841
>She's saner than the joker
But the Joker isn't insane at all.

>>92466889
There's real world misoginy that's baffling and horrible, and you and the other tumblrites trivialised it beyond recognition and meaning. How does it make you feel?

>>92470204
Ok landis

>>92470235
t. pink haired mangirl

>>92466560
>he DC remember your edgy phase that almost bankrupted you? Let me do that with one of your most lucrative character at your disposal.

Yeah, Landis is a retard.

>>92469982
Tragedies are supposed to invoke catharsis or pleasure through the suffering of their characters. However, it should be noted that the presence of a tragic character does not make the story a tragedy.

>>92470268
I remember that era, trashy-teenage-slut Supergirl was hot

>>92468128
Robley Quinn isn't the same thing as regular Harley randomly being treated like an antihero and you know it.

>>92466560

has Landis responded to Ghost in the Shell bombing?

>>92466560
You know you're a faggot when you agree with Landis.

>>92470385
Nah. He's a massive faggot but he's right about this.

>>92469711
People here post twitter posts of literal who's all the time.

>>92466560
What makes Deadpool acceptable as a anti-hero is that he never does outright chaotic evil shit. He mostly dabbles in grey acts, so you can understand that he's TRYING to be good.

Harley has no such excuse. She was evil and then suddenly everyone forgave her.

>>92468296
>he thinks its a joke

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>>92470541
>yfw Deadpool has consistently been written as a better more cohesive character than Harley

>>92467056
>His Superman story made me physically ill.

While I don't like Max's view on Superman it's no worse than a lot of people's views on Superman. Superman is a more complicated character than Max thinks he is, which is a problem a lot of people have with Superman, it's just Max's view is in the positive rather than the negative.

>>92466719
>clips

>>92466560
100% agree. Harley as an anti-hero/good guy is just gross, but it doesn't matter because she's such a draw for girls. The year Suicide Squad came out, I saw 1 Harley for every 3 or 4 non-Harley cosplayers at Comic Con. She was a pretty popular Halloween costume, too.

She's DC's Deadpool, and they know it, and they will push her until everyone is sick of her and not stop even then.

>>92468219

Batman and Harley being a couple in INJUSTICE 2 bothers me tremendously.

>>92470780
Suicide Squad (the movie) Harley is better than current comics Harley. At least she's a cunt who kills for the lulz there.

>>92470826
Me too, like what the fuck?. Why would Bats end up with Harley instead of Selina? That game really screwed up normal canon of things

>>92467905

This is so bullshit. He seems to think that it was Death of Superman which began this shit. In Death of Superman it was always the plan to bring Superman back to life.

If you really want to look at issues of resurrection cheapening comics look at JEAN GREY which happened before Death of Superman.

Max is such an autistic hack. Also, the Death and Return of Superman works for Superman because it shows that the optimism which Superman embodies can overcome death.

Whereas Jean Grey's resurrection happened in such a manner that the books went to print as someone at Marvel distracted Chris Claremont so he couldn't stop it from happening.

>>92470920
Injustice is a clusterfuck.

>>92471026
And the worst kind of clusterfuck, not even the amusing one anymore. Injustice took itself too seriously for its own good

>>92470409
Oh yeah, someone who wants a more edgier Harley than what we have now is right. He is literally suggesting Joker's daughter.

>>92470957
The only thing Death of Superman was supposed to signify was the death of the market.

>>92470235
Didn't answer his question fucking faggot

>>92470957
He's not wrong though. It happened before but it was more rare back than. The whole point of the video was that it made people care and comics ran with it.

>>92471026
>Injustice is a clusterfuck
Being an elseworld of an elseworld made it really fucking weird.

It was like the ultimate "everyone is an asshole now" universe, plus the what if superman went bad elseworld combined.

Except when everyone's an asshole already it's not really that interesting when everyone turns evil, or acts like a piece of shit.

edgy villians are cancer. no one other than bruce timm should be allowed to touch batman

>>92466560
for once I agree with this douche, he's right on the money this time

>>92470826
>>92470920

They're not a couple, you stupid shits. They work together.

Did you even watch the game?

>>92466560
What a fucking retard.

>>92472452

They live together alone and initially he only trusted her.

>>92472452
>Did you even watch the game?
>watch
>game
That sounds promising.

>>92466560
>I hate this character that I don't understand so I want to destroy her

>>92469677
>And Catwoman is a theif stealing from people who already live in a shitty city like gotham.

To be fair she steals from the wealthy in Gotham (jewel thief after all) girls gotta eat and it doesn't seem like there's a lot of job prospects in Gotham other than joining a gang.

>>92471249
>>92471492

The issue wasn't the Death and Return of Superman story line though. The issue was the comic book industry as a whole at the time due to the speculators market and realising that rare comics were worth something and thinking rare comics would mean something again. I'd say The Clone Saga is far more egregious than Death and Return of Superman was.

>>92466641
>>92466560

I agree and disagree to a point.

Harley as an anti-hero is fucking garbage and yeah this Deadpool-esque quirkiness she's had for a while now is one of the biggest cancers in DC.

At the same time the answer isn't to make her dark and scary. Her characterization in BTAS is perfect because Joker is already the scary one. So having this playful harlequin sidekick plays off that dynamic really well BECAUSE she's CHOOSES that path. Just making her another Joker doesn't really work, someone already mentioned Joker's daughter.

>>92470541
>What makes Deadpool acceptable as a anti-hero is that he never does outright chaotic evil shit.
Seriously brah? You forgetting how he was holding blind Al hostage and tortured an old friend of hers to death when she tried to escape?

>>92473266

Nobody's read original Kelley Deadpool. They only know memepool who is basically a different character.

>>92466700
You speak so well for a seven year old

>>92466799
>This triggers BTAS fans to death
no, not at all, what the fuck are you on about?

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>>92473170
>Just making her another Joker doesn't really work, someone already mentioned Joker's daughter.
Kinda ironic that the Joker's daughter was DC's crazy female clown anti-hero before Harley.

>>92466560

The only thing that gets Anti Hero Harley right is Injustice and its because Joker is fucking dead and gone and she gets proper character development and growth.

The whole reason she is with Batman in Injustice 2 is the fact she can reform proves his point that everyone can potentially be saved and killing criminals is wrong.

>>92466560
He's completely correct and I've been saying the same thing for years. Only now when I bring it up I'll be accused of parroting Max Landis, just like whenever you try to talk about Rey. As we all know Max Landis invented the term Mary Sue in the year 2015.

>>92466560
>>92466641
Uh yeah he's right but money is important too. I'd rather have Silver Age fun Batman but edgy loser Batman is what sells. Mostly.

>>92466879
The original meaning of whitewash is still the one regularly used with the media.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=whiutewash&oq=whiutewash&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j0l10j43i53.1692.22221.0.23274.10.2.0.0.0.0.48.48.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.1.__dT9W4RJGY#hl=en&gl=us&authuser=0&tbm=nws&q=whitewash

>>92473477
the only important thing she did was being the first to die in Countdown.

>>92468128
>bat-bat

I chortled

>>92468251

No, Harley is a prime example of "It got popular so the company tries to capitalize on it, changes everything and forces it down your throat."

It's not being a hipster that most niche stuff end up better because when someone is just given a pocket of a universe to work in and left alone it tends to produce the best work.

>>92473302
I'm pretty sure most people who say that have either not read Kellypool or misremember it.
Kellypool definitely had its share of what would qualify as "memepool", it was just balanced with better dramatic moments.

Maybe you meant Liefeld Deadpool.

>>92466813
This

>>92466560
I really don't see it. She's developed since her time as a henchwoman, she just kept the whole circus clown aesthetic.

Also, Harley is only as edgy and scary as the version of the Joker she models herself after.

>>92466886
She'd make a great Harley.

File: image.jpg (61KB, 650x375px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 650x375px

Anti heroes do bad things to bad people for a good reason.

Punisher and Jesse Custer are antiheroes, Meme Quinn is not

File: Screen Shot 2017-05-17 at 10.52.17 PM.png (2MB, 722x1260px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 722x1260px

>>92466560
I agree. DC can't decide between goofy antihero Harley and psychopath Harley. If they went with psycho Harley this scene wouldn't be completely out of character.

>>92466641
This is Literally the Joker's Daughter from Nu52.

And this cunt is wrong.

>>92467262
Hot crackers! I take exception to that!

>>92466641
Meh. I hate Harley but I've accepted that she's loved by a lot of people. I'm just waiting for DC to drop the Joker from her origin. Having her help him then go be a hero is pretty fucked up, it's why I hate Injustice.

>>92466560
I agree mostly but characters change with the times and Harley exploded in popularity for whatever reason

>>92467207
This is one of the few things I liked about Batman Forever.

>>92467915
Dini didn't intend for her to be an anti-hero, just for her to eventually stop being a villain.

>>92466560
>>92466641

I don't think he could be more right. Maybe If he pointed out the pandering to fanplebs by DC over the last 5 years or so.

>>92467603
Wrong kiddo. New 52 was the 90s era returned, you had guys like Lee running the fucking show.

>>92466858
>I mean aside from the fact that he is trying to put poison ivy and catwoman above the likes of joker
Do you honestly think they're worse or on the same level as the Joker? Catwoman is just a thief and even though Ivy kills people and is an ecoterrorist at least she has SOME sort of reasoning for killing people compared to the Joker who just kills people because he enjoys it.

>>92467423
The problem is characters like her and Mr. Freeze only work in the universes they were created for. Freeze can only be used so many times before "muh Nora" gets old which is why each of his appearances after Heart of Ice in the show got staler with each successive episode. For Harley, she loses most of her sympathy if the Joker becomes a mass murdering sociopath like he is in the comics. She was also never intended to be a hero and the most she does in the show is eventually get away from the Joker.

>>92475720
Killing people because of plants is hardly a better reason than killing people because you find it fun, not to mention that Poison Ivy has canonically killed people for her amusement before. That's setting aside the rapes.