Discuss Kingdom Come

>>92307694
The art is pretty pretty.

>>92307694
Lotsa characters die die.

The story is "big" and "epic". For some people, that equates to "good".

>>92307694
>I'M /co/ AND THIS CLASSIC CAPE STORY IS SHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT GIVE ME (YOU)S!!!!

>>92307694
If you don't like it then you don't like it.
Anyone who needs validation or reasons for their personal preferences really needs to work on their self-esteem, man.

>>92307925
How do you justify liking something, then?

>>92307902
>>92307925
I am not seeking validation just a discussion of why you like the story something that you haven't done so how bout it, try actually giving an argument for the merits of this piece of art

Spider-man, Thor and Captain America make a quick cameo

the 90s were the best time for comics, Waid is a faggot

>>92307694
it's A LOT of people's first comic, someone at some point sold the meme that it pulled comics back from the brink of the Dark Age, and the art isn't what people expect from a comic

that's pretty much it as to why people like it. The story is pretty typical Big 2 90s with a hopeful ending, it's basically Waid and Ross whining about muh Silver Age, and while Ross is a great artist, his style isn't suited to action-oriented comics.

>>92307962
in terms of quality, maybe.

in terms of actual health of the industry, oh my no

>>92307963
All true but here is the think hardcore Superman fans love it and that I just don't get it portrays their hero as a coward that needed to be talked down from killing a room full of people because they nuked the gulag which was his fault his ineptitude is what cause all the troubles in the story and he was reward for it that I just don't get.

>>92307994
>is right about basically everything
>has some badass moments
>wins
I'm a Superman fan and I don't like it, but I can see why some might

I'm so happy Waid never got a Superman ongoing

>>92307946
>WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT THIS WELL KNOWN AND OFTEN DISSECTED STORY SPOONFEED ME DO IIIIIT NOT AN ARGUMENT FUUCK IM RETAAAARDEEEED!!!!

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>>92307694
>>92307963
>>92307994
>>92307962
>>92307925
>>92307776

>>92308051
>I'm retarded
I'm glad you're aware of your condition Anon, hope its gets better.

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>>92307694
I'm amazed at DC's restraint at only bringing up Red Robin and the Gogs up to the main continuity.

I figured by now the Battalion would have been an established foil to the JLA/JSA by now.

>>92307728
understatement of the decade, the Captain Marvel splash, is easily one of the top 5 pages ever.

>>92307962
so much this.

>>92307694
What an awful thread. /co/ has really just shat itself recently.

>>92308007
As a Batfag/Wonderfag myself I just assume that to be the reason I didn't like the story but I feel it just isn't a good story and it showcase why I am not a big Superman fan; All the comic does is exalt Superman as the best and he never does anything, the comic keep on telling us about how he is stronger than he knows and how when he left all the heroes just when to hell just because and how his return brought them back but why?

Superman have done nothing in the story to justify such action the comic opt to tell and not show hell in the dark knight return Batman did a whole lot of shit and it was all their did he always win no he got his ass kicked by the mutant leader the first time but this comic never deared to get Superman's hands dirty he does nothing through out the book yet he is the Greatest Hero?

>>92308078

>>92308072
fuck you faggot they needed giant laser guns because they are awesome, they beat the bad guys because they actually fought them for once
eat two dicks

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>the part in th restaurant
>old heros were really great
>dead man redesign was amazing
>magog was a savage & the hero we deserve
>captain marvels bulge
It's not the best thing ever but that's why I like it

>>92308103
I dont think you understood the post at all.

Moore's Supreme is should be the comic getting Absolute Editions and reprinted all the time
I hate this timeline

>>92308072
this assumes that silver age heroes weren't arbitrarily created

>>92308085
I like the idea that the regular DCU reflects some things from Elseworlds but not all of it. Like in Kingdom Come it was Dick who became Red Robin but in the regular DCU it's Tim who took the identity instead. Or the idea in Morrison's run that it's Old Man Damian who trains Terry instead of Bruce (which if you go by how tragic DCAU Bruce's future became would really fit more with DCU Damian than DCU Bruce)

>>92308156
I dont think it does, it just assumes they werent made by focus testing. Learn reading comprehension.

>>92308171
That damien bit is no longer true.

>>92308072
Huh, never thought of it that way.
But I can say that I like Kingdom Come because it was my first big boy comic having been initially weaned on issues of the 70s transformers comic that my dad figured weren't worth anything. I actually reread it recently and it still holds up, especially since I can actually recognize half the little background cameos.
>Von Back did nothing wrong.

>>92308116
Moore's Supreme should've been entirely drawn by Joe Bennett and/or Chris Sprouse, with Rick Veitch on the retro flashbacks, all the way through and had a conclusion.

>>92308193
comics don't have conclusions that's da point

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>>92307694
Welp if pic related isn't a sign for me to finally talk about this..
I DESPISED Captain Marvel(Shazam).
Let me start by sayinh It's been awhile since I read KC. But the stuff I remember about Captain Marvel in particular rile me up.
Billy Batson was always the happy go lucky Gary Stu superhero who overcame his enemies with his diety powers, intelligence and his child innocence. Somehow Lex Luthor corrupted his innocence to the point Billy became nothing but a hired thug and a killer? So apparently all the wisdom of Solomon left him too? I honestly believe there's no way Billy would listen to Luthor. Literally an evil mastermind.
I can see if it was someone like CM jr. Or Ms. Marvel. But Billy (before nu52) had always been shown to be incorruptible. Thats why he got his powers in the first place. Not to mention his target demographic. While Robin was a self insert for kids, Captain Marvel was someone they could aspire to be.
Only for him to be shaken up by Luthor?
It's like they tried to do the Superman arc from the Dark Knight Returns but they made it with the two worst possible pairings.

So basically the Story has no deep Philosophical meaning to it or nothing good to say it exist and is maintained by by virtue of timing and nostalgia damn so Watchmen has great paneling and something to say and Dark Knight Returns distilled Batman into a single book and all Kingdom Come brings to the table is its existence well OK. I just find that odd their are thousands of well written article about Sandman and other great works of art and all I can get for Kingdom Come it pretty art, well that's disappointing to say the least.

>>92308283
Waid is a Superman fanboy, writing a hit piece on everything he doesn't like.

>>92308283
You stupid fucking retard. He is literally mind controlled via a worm you stupid stupid sack of shit.

>>92308305
see
>>92308315

>>92308303
see
>>92308072
you stupid faggot.


Also


> Dark Knight Returns distilled Batman into a single book

Really that is your take away? Not only is it fucking wrong, but thats ALL you got out of it? Are you underage or just absolutely retarded?

>>92308283
When Superman left and superheroes started gravitating towards heedless, gratuitous violence, Billy started seeing the world becoming a dangerous place for children, beyond his ability to protect. That's what Luthor used to pry apart his psyche, the (very real) possibility that he and his orphan siblings wouldn't have survived in such an awful world, and that superheros are tainted by their own arrogance and power.

They implied that as Billy got older, he simply stopped becoming Captain Marvel, and without the wisdom of Solomon he was vulnerable to Luthor. A combination of Luthor and Sivana SCiENCE! fucked his brain up good.

Even as a minion of Luthor's he spent very little time as the Captain, further limiting any effect Solomon's Wisdom might have on his fragile mental state.

>>92308349
Holy shit are you retarded too? Luthor LITERALLY MIND CONTROLLED CAPTAIN MARVEL USING A WORM.


What the fuck. Why is everyone here so goddamn dumb?

>>92308349
>>92308367
>>92308305
>>92308283
and not only is it a worm its Mr. Mind, which would be fucking obvious if you guys were any kind of Captain Marvel/Shazam fans at all instead of whiny ass plebs trying to "fit in."

>>92308283
Nothing new anon everyone in KC was a shadow of what they should be Wonder woman in particular was portrayed badly even Waid had to apologise for it and that is something that I find funny about Kingdom Come; The world of KC is basically a mess everything is bad why? just so that Waid could make Superman look good by comparison think about it Martian Manhunter is insane for some reason, Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist I call bullshit the truth is simple all this was done to make Superman's return impactful Waid was chasing the DKR so hard it hurts.

>>92308367
He did that but didn't you read the talk Superman had with Captain Marvel in #4?

>>92308369
>I already got corrected but I'm going to sperge out some more about Waid and make fake claims

Pathetic

>>92308374
Who gives a shit, none of that matters when he is being mind controlled. That is literally the answer and you just went on this big "IMPLIED" bullshit rant for no reason.


I'm not saying what you wrote doesnt have valid ideas in it or nothing, but for fucks sake it is NOT the reason he was acting that way.

>>92308369
holy shit you silly stupid faggot
see
>>92308368
>>92308367
>>92308315

>>92308374
Or when Bruce's lines when he was looking for Billy?

>>92308388
>I can explain one thing so all the other things are wrong

>>92308369
>>92308394

>Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist I call bullshit

So you didnt even read the fucking comic? They say he is only guarding Central (or Keystone I forget) city. Just the one single city. He cant stop moving, yes, but he is only patrolling that single city superhard because of all the other young heroes out there. His city is free of all that. Just like how Batman went full robots.
Goddamn you retard didnt even read the actual book, you silly silly faggot.

>>92308315
Your right. Like I said haven't read it in awhile. But do you really think that even in the "grounded" reality of Kingdom Come the Stamina of Achilles wouldn't btfo whatever virus enters him? Or the Wisdom of Solomon wouldn't keep him from believing in anything other than Superman? I mean even Injustice he follows Supes but reluctantly.
I just don't buy that a worm can make someone lose that much hope and naivete.

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I just wanna see more of Nightstar. Is that so wrong?

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>>92308368
>Mr. Mind controlling og CM
>ever

>>92308409
Kingdom Come never pretended to be grounded at all. Why do retards like you always think that "grounded" = "pg13"


>I just don't buy that a worm can make someone lose that much hope and naivete.


Its fucking fiction AND its Mr. Mind. Do you even know WHO Mr. Mind is?


Goddamn you are so casual if fucking hurts. Kill yourself.

I don't think Waid's ever written anything worthwhile besides his JLA: Year One

>>92308447
>posting an unrelated gif from the worst animated cartoon
>hurr durr I dont know shit about Captain Marvel's rogues gallery
>hurr durr in this alternate future there is no possible way that the fictional mad scientist Luthor working with the fictional Mr. Mind worm could ever ever control the fictional Captain Marvel
Just end yourself. There is no curing your levels of autism.

>>92308450
K ohana. I didn't catch that panel where he said it was Mr. Mind. Maybe I need to read the book again. Gonna need you to settle down first.

>>92308474
>settle down, its not my fault im retarded

just stop posting if acknowledge you are retarded. Even if it WASNT Mr. Mind, its still just fiction. You would still just have to accept that the nemesis of Superman had a worm powerful enough to mind control Captain Marvel.


This is as retarded as saying "wait a minute, I don't buy this whole 'force' thing" in Star Wars or questioning why Superman cant see through led "b-but he can see through everything else!"


Its the conceit of the story. If you arent willing to accept the story on its own terms and deal with the internal logic of the story then why even read it.

>>92308495
>>92308474
if you acknowledge that***


oh the irony

>>92307694
Apparently it was being hailed as "a love letter to the silver age." Didn't bring anything to the table no matter what
>>92308072
Says.

>>92308417
I'm going to be a little annoyed if she isn't Dick's kid in the new Naziwing elseworld thing.

>>92308506
>It didnt bring anything to the table! Fuck that well reasoned and thought out argument! I dont have a counterargument but its wrong REEEEEEEEEEE
Also that post doesnt even say it was a love letter to the silver age you moronic sack of bile.

Jesus, One anon here is really pissed off for some reason

>>92308104
Magog is my favorite character in the book, besides Supes himself.

>>92308554
>people spouting stupid opinions based off misinformation
>almost the epitome of absolute cancer
>get mad at the guy telling them to fuck off

you can fuck right off to you stupid redditor piece of shit. this is not your silly hugbox. if people want to spout an opinion about something they should at least have the decency to actually base that opinion on correct information, not made up bullshit.

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>>92308583
Jesus calm down man for fuck sacks.

>>92308521
>Also that post doesnt even say it was a love letter to the silver age
i never said it did. it was indeed a callback to the whole 'what if superheroes weren't good guys' that had been done several times before with Moore, Claremont, and anyone who wrote Spiderman from the 70's to the late 80's. The twist is that every superhero is getting caught by the times. Crimes are getting worse. The smiles are fading. Golden age heroes are old. Heck Ross himself said the story was meant to reflect the state of comics at the time.
I'm not even crapping on it. I'm just saying it wasn't ground breaking or deep in any way.

>>92308637
Shhh. Just ignore him. He'll tucker himself out eventually.

>>92308656
But you still havent refuted the pic you said was "wrong." Its interpretation is just as valid as yours so far. So fuck right off.

>>92308637
>STOP BEING MEAN ON AN ANONYMOUS IMAGE BOARD

why are you still even here? do you enjoy telling people to chill over the net?

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>>92308668
>ignore the only guy in the thread who seems to actually have read the comic


god fuck what /co/ has become, you guys care more about people typing/talking in a fashion that doesnt offend you than actual comic accuracy.


fuck off and go back to whatever shit hole you came from

>wahhhh superheroes are cool for once
fuck Waid and anyone who defends this shit

>>92307937
Why should you need justification? If you like something, you should like it.

>>92307994
Punctuation, nigga.

>>92307962
Haw haw haw.. The 90s sucked. Admit it. All my favorite bloggers said so.

>>92307937
I've never needed to justify anything I did to myself at any point in my entire life.
If I enjoyed it, I did it. If other people didn't get it, so what? I never wasted time shitting all over things they liked, and I genuinely didn't care what 99% of them thought about or did, because the people who's opinions mattered to me either understood it or didn't mind.
To me everyone else in the world continues to exist as a separate individual, but their actions and opinions are utterly irrelevant to what I decide to enjoy and like.

I've never had this issue of caring what other random people thought about me, not even remotely.
Now if I could only figure out why the fuck they start looking to me for answers to random shit, like somehow being able to make my own decisions in life without needing their input suddenly makes me a "leader" or whatever instead of just a guy with a healthy degree of self-reliance.

okay. one anon REALLY likes kingdom come ITT.

put me in the screencap.

>fe without needing their input suddenly makes me a "leader" or whatever instead of just a guy with a healthy degree of self-reliance

Anon, I don't think you realize how thirsty the average person is for approval and how willing they are to pass responsibility of any kind to the first person who looks even remotely capable of handling it instead of them.

>>92308712
Because that isn't satisfying anymore.

>>92308406

He's saying that's a retarded shit to excuse the contrived scenario used as a set-up for the story.

>>92308519
She's not, Dick has a son in it

Waid is responsible for every subsequent terrible Wonder Woman in every Elseworld ever

>>92308824
No he isnt, stop making excuses for his lack of reading comprehension.

>>92308836
you're autistic, are you Mark Waid

>>92308842
Dude, you literally made up an explanation that is in no way supported by the guy's comment.


>Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist

Nothing about that implies your reading of it. It implies he just didn't understand what was on the pages.

>>92308860
it implies you're a shitty autistic writer who didn't even write the best Impulse

>>92308885
>can't actually defend my argument
>so I'll resort to talking about different things all together

if you killed yourself no one would even notice

You know what always bothered me about Kingdom Come? The end in the restaurant.

The whole comic end on the note that humanity shouldn't be dependent on super-beings too much, be it Magog or even Superman. That when they gave power to Magog reckless actions they end up validating any super-being to act accordingly and that created a mess. Then when Superman came back wanting to set things right because people were uneasy they went the wrong way escalating things further. That's why Superman and the other heroes decide to retire and leave humanity draw its own feet.

But then in the end you've Superman and Wonder Woman announcing that they're having a super-children and you even have Wonder Woman asking Batman to be the kid's godfather because she thinks the kid need a bit of humanity in its life, since her and Superman are basically gods that are even more out of touch with reality.

Well, why the fuck did Waid and Ross decided that was a good note to end the comic? That shit pretty much defeats the whole fucking point of the comic. I understand that they wanted to reward Superman with a happy ending by giving him a Lois 2.0 that won't die on his ass ever due to her superpowers, but in doing that you kinda defeat the idea that humanity won't end with another Magog on their hands. "Us superbeings made tons of fucked-up shit, lets all retire and while doing so put more superbeings into the world, specially one as powerful as my son with Wonder Tits". Like what?

Also, the whole baby thing came out of nowhere. Superman and Wonder Woman were antagonist as fuck toward each other throughout the entire comic.

>>92308829

It became her Dark Knight Returns.

>>92308940
plus have this this all powerful prodigy have a god father who is literately batshit crazy and created a police state that would make Hatcher cream herself

>>92309012

Like right?

I mean, even ignoring the fact that the romance between Superman and Wonder Woman in the comic wasn't developed at all other than that panel where they share a goodbye kiss devoid of feelings - the comic points it out for some odd reason, i guess to show how at odd they were -, i'd understand if the comic ended with Superman and Wonder Woman announcing they set out their differences and were marrying, with Superman asking Batman to be his best-man. You'd give Superman the happy ending he needs and still maintain the point that now humanity has to figure their shit out by themselves because the super-heroes are retiring.

But instead the ending mention that a super-baby is coming in a few months and specifically point out the fact that it might lack the necessary human perspective due to its biology and parenting. Like... why? Why do this?

>>92309012

The kid ended up with a weak-willed fool for a father, a bloodthirsty psychopath for a mother and a crazy fascist for a godfather. Yup, nothing will go wrong there in the future.

>>92308072

The pic in that post is wrong about a very important aspect of the comic: the old super-heroes didn't all retire like he implies. Only Superman did. Every other super-hero of old is shown still active. They just seem to have completely lost their head or character without Superman around.

That's the other thing that the comic fails in. If the old super-heroes had all retired like that post imply, then the comic would actually make sense. That picture there makes plenty of sense. The problem is the comic didn't depict things that way. The comic instead showed that all the old super-heroes had become not much better than the new and reckless anti-heroes that popped up. It seems that without Superman around the JL simple lose their morals and shit. Wonder Woman became disgraced as an amazon for failing to bring peace to man's world and gave in to violence in her frustration, Batman turned Gotham into a police state where even innocents feared the symbol of the bat, Flash constantly patrol his city at super-speed being everywhere robbing the city of its life, and so on.

So the whole old wholesome heroes vs. 90's edgy anti-heroes thing becomes muddled as fuck.

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>>92309073
>>92308940
Sexquakes
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>>92309298

It's like this pairing is a recipe for disaster.

>>92309313
No woman can compete with the Hand of Steel

>>92309247

Counterpoint, because i'm trying to be fair:

Maybe Waid and Ross tried to show to show that once the public became rallying for a more proactive and drastic stance from the heroes after Magog execution of the Joker, it weren't just the young and reckless metas that jumped on the opportunity to set out a name for themselves by delivering just that, but also, with time, the old heroes from the JL as well. Maybe thanks to the public outcry heroes like Batman and the Flash ended up becoming more and more hands-on in their ways, while Wonder Woman despite her best intentions gave in to the influence and started to believe as well in violence as a solution to problems. They were all influenced and pressured into slowly change their ways to fit the new paradigm and eventually became too immerse to see or do things differently. Thus necessitating the return of Superman, who still believed in the old ways, to give his old friends and the public the perspective and hope necessary to make them remember and want the good old days back.

But if that's truly what Waid and Ross were trying to do, then they failed in portraying that effectively in the comic. Heck, much about the character details were told in the back-up bios. For example you wouldn't know that Wonder Woman became disgraced by her own people for failing mission just by reading the comic.

>>92307985
You make no sense.

>>92308940
the point was greater co-operation (not dominance) between humans and superhumans, with the whole "among you, not above you" line at the airport and batman's role in raising the child supports that

"We saw you as gods"
"As we saw ourselves, and we were both wrong"

supes and wondy had different outlooks but weren't enemies (antagonistic would describe her and batman 's scuffle mid-battle, which was quickly snuffled when they saw the nukes) - she was the first to contact him when he secluded himself, and they clearly had a history.

>>92309422
the background info wasn't relevant to the main story but helps with establishing the elseworlds version of the character specific to that story, it doesn't really need to go beyond the bonus bio

>>92307694
Alex Ross's Cap Marvel is so good. His smug fucking face.

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Can we talk about how garbage the art was in the sequel "The Kingdom"
Was it a sequel? It acts like half of kingdom come doesn't even happen. Why doesn't superman recognize Magog in this when he knew him in kingdom come

>>92310428
I've never even heard of this, and from this description I don't want to

>>92310505
It's about a guy who makes a church of superman because he saves him from Magog when he nukes Kansas, he thinks superman is God and he was saved for a purpose, superman says nah Im not a God I just saved you because you were there, he gets pissed, all the mythological gods come out of nowhere and give him all their powers, which somehow turns him into Magog? Goes back in time and starts to kill every single superman in the timeline. It's a mess

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>>92310603
yeesh
not only does it repeat the moral of the original but destroys it by using actual gods to dismantle everything
was there any upside?

>>92310778
I mean, Wonder Woman and supes have a kid at the end? And they ask Bruce to be his godfather and then they go have lunch at that super hero cafe. That's about it

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Alex Ross Power Girl

because reasons.

>>92307694
It is shit. If not for the ross art it'd be long forgotten.

>>92310861
Garbage opinion

>>92310871
>austistic thread mom, stikes again.

>>92310888
I just got here bud not the guy sperging out above

>>92310797
so repeating the original again but showing the actual baby?

>>92310902
Sure. Lol.

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>>92310919
Don't believe me then faggot
>>92310916
Yeah towards the end Magog kidnaps their son

>>92308826
That could be her kid brother.

>>92311056
Jesus Christ Super's, can you named your kids by something other than fucking Jonathan?

>>92310603
>>92310778
Remember, The Kingdom heavily relies on "Hyper Time" for the story and timeline craziness. It's the story that solidified the concept to keep most stories before Zero Hour canon.

>>92307694
It's Civil War before Civil War was a thing

>>92307925
You do need justification for liking something though, same with disliking it.

Otherwise, you're just being stupid without reason.

>>92310778
>was there any upside
Superman and WWs kid becomes the Phantom Stranger.
Not sure if that's a good thing.
The art was fucking atrocious.

>>92307694
go fuck yourself

it is one of greatest comics ever made.

Mark Waid went insane after that

>>92313619
Earth X was better.

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>>92308562
>"just make the ghost go away"
That line hurt a little

>>92308474
> - Man, The Killing Joke sucks. Why would Batman get so pissed at a clown? Makes no fucking sense!
> - Dude, it's The Joker.
> - Oh, sorry, I didn't catch the panel where they said it was The Joker. Still totally sucks though.

That's how retarded you sound.

>>92307694
I kinda thought the characters being a shadow of their former selves was the point? Same with super man seeming cowardly, like the whole plot was about he how he was too scared to act due to potential consequences. that's just my veiw, i can understand not liking it for the same reasons

>>92307776
yes, you are right.

>>92307694
>>92307694
>Superman comes off as a cowardice, weak willed man who did nothing throughout the story
Stopping a whole shitload of super-gangs hardly seems like "nothing"

>>92307962
>the 90s were the best time for comics
Agreed.

>>92310428
DUDE HYPERTIME LMAO

>>92307694
I felt similarly when I read it. I think >>92308072 was screencapped from the thread I made.
Pretty sure my gripe was with it's stance on killing/not-killing. When they frame the fucking Joker dying as a BAD thing I assumed there'd be some transcendent beautiful really-makes-you-think justification and... there wasn't. There are even times where the edgy legacy strawmen make completely valid points that never get challenged or disproven, as though MAKING the point was inherently silly.
Maybe that's the cowardly, weak-willed stuff you're talking about. IDK, it all just felt really whiny & impotent on the writers behalf. And since Supes is the main writer mouthpiece, well...

>>92307902
Not OP but I also think this is a really shitty story and has had an overwhelmingly negative impact on successive stories.

>>92314006
Ok
A) upon reading this again they never say or show specifically Mr. Mind. Luthor just says Good job with all those mind control worms Sivana. They don't even show him in the Justice series.
B)I was a fan of Captain Marvel but even then I didn't know Mr. Mind was just by seeing him as well as people do with the Joker.
>getting this bent outta shape because of a post made over 8 hours before yours.

>>92307951
Dude, Everybody made a quick cameo. It's Alex (Easter Egg) Ross, fer crissakes.

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>>92315218
Forgot pic.
Basically saying this and this barely look alike.

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>>92307694
Never liked it. It's clearly "SUPERMAN JERK OFF THE COMIC" but when it did jerk him off it never feels earn because he's shitty throughout the book. Also didn't like how they handle the rest of the character like Wonder Woman(big shock) and Billy.

>>92308409
As Billy he doesn't wield those posers. Thus the fear, the brainwashing, the mind control took over and worked thier voodoo on him.

>>92315666
>It's clearly "SUPERMAN JERK OFF THE COMIC"
Superman never jerked off a comic book in the story, Satan.

>>92315218
A worm is a plot point relevant to Captain Marvel, but you never thought it could be Mr. Mind?
>I was a fan of Captain Marvel but even then I didn't know Mr. Mind
Sure you were, pal.

You have to admit out of all the big "Superman must read "comics this one is the worst.

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>>92308085

>>92307694
It entertained me and the art is pretty nice.

>>92315867
I don't have to admit shit faggot

>>92310809
MUH.

>>92309835

The point is lost when you still have two people who saw themselves as gods having a godly children. Batman, who's hardly human, helping raise the baby doesn't mitigate that.

And Superman and Wonder Woman relationship were antagonistic as fuck. They couldn't see eye to eye and were disappointed with each other. Batman and Wonder Woman, weirdly enough, seemed to have some sort of understanding and Batman managed to reach and convince Wonder Woman, something Superman couldn't. And they all had a history, not just Superman and Wonder Woman.

>>92307902
>>92308051
Settle down, Waid.

is Waid the worst writer of all time? he should kill himself

>>92308417
Nope, she was easily best girl.

But that's because most of the other girls were either background fodder or Wonder Stalin

>>92317550
Nah. That title goes to Mark Millar.

>>92310428
>>92310603
The guy who went around killing Supermen was Gog, not Magog. Confusing, I know, but that's Waid for ya.

Something that few people often bring up is how horrible the dialogue and narration is. It's like a child's idea of what formal speech sounds like. It somehow manages to simultaneously be infantile and pretentious.

>>92317833
please never refer to the author of Superman Adventures #41 as bad in any context ever again. k? thanks

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>>92317874
Well he is a big autistic baby.

>>92317928
Holy fucking shit. I mean, this is Gary Groth, so take it with a grain of salt, but goddamn.

>>92317928
Hahaha oh wow

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He's a rare photo of Waid and Ross making Kingdom Come while discussing 90's comics.

I thought the story was pretty good, i liked how Supes' comeback is what inspires the JL to be their old selves again, i once showed to a few friends that dont read comics and everyone liked when i told them that Flash was always moving, GL had a fucking space fortress, etc.
If any of the Snyder films had a story half as good as this (and didnt look like it had a grey filter on) it would make them an 8/10 for me at least.

>>92320314

Why would Superman inspire the JL to be their old selves again? It implies that they are unable to know right from wrong or be proper heroes without his helping hand.

>>92320314
KC's story is actually exactly what I'd expect from a Snyder DCEU movie

>>92307694
I liked Busiek's Marvels more

>>92320431
Because the JL are weak ass bitches and need Superman.

It's either Superman or Batman who inspires ALL the heroes in these elseworlds

>>92320431
is a Superman story, what did you expected?

>>92320431
Because Supes was the best of them, and i remember reading a few times of other heroes talking about Superman been the moral compass of the League, he's the boyscout after all.
But thats just me anon, you could believe what this faggot >>92320524 said.

>>92308072
This kind of explains modern Marvel.

>>92317928
Ha. Where is this from?

>>92320606
It's True though.

In elseworlds, it's always Superman or Batman that inspires the whole League/Superhero Community because they are the ones the author loves the most. It ain't "moral compass" or shit.

There's a reason why you sure as hell don't see Wonder Woman or Flash or Billy inspiring the team. They are never the main characters. They aren't important.

>>92320606

Batman seems to be their moral compass more often than Superman, since Batman has never gone rogue in the main continuity or Elseworlds, while Superman has done it plenty of times.

And Superman being the best of them means nothing, because none of the heroes should need him to be heroes themselves. That's just Superman fanwanking. It's specially stupid in the comic when Superman himself quit and isolated himself from the world.

>>92308085
They took way more than that, the entire concept of Damian Wayne is from there.

>>92307694
It's so well liked mostly because of the art.

>>92320785
>Batman has never gone rogue

Brother Eye.

>>92320867
>what is Son of the Demon

>>92320903

Not Batman's fault and what drove him to create Brother Eye for good was all the shitty things the JL did before.

>>92320940
Tower of Babel.

>>92320735
>>92320785
No shit Supes comes off as the main good guy in a Superman story, if you want an Elseworlds in wich Billy is the greatest hero ever read Thunderworld.
Batman been more of the moral compass and Supes going rogue more often has nothing to do with the character as he's supposed to be, its just writers that cant think outside of : What if Superman was evil and Batman was still a good duy, such an original concept has never been explored before!

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Best Flash

>>92321015

Not Bruce's fault either, the counter measures were a necessary thing.

>has nothing to do with the character as he's supposed to be

It creates a precedence that Superman's easily corruptible.

>ctrl+F
>no bitching about how it solidified the "Captain Atom just blows up all the time" trope

consider that contributed to the discussion

>>92321214

It solidified a lot of stupid things that ended up fucking a lot of characters in the long run.

If we were to list them all it would take time.

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MUH

>>92308940
>That's why Superman and the other heroes decide to retire and leave humanity draw its own feet.
That's not what happened though. The idea was to let metas and humans be on level ground. Not one above the other. In that universe there will always be a need for superhumans.
The fact is now they'll work more closely with humanity. Helping where they can, and not just punching bad guys.
"The Trinity" retired, but it was to let others step up and take their place. Diana was still training and guiding some of the survivors of the bomb on Themyscira.
The idea would be the 3 of them would train Clark and Diana's child(ren). Bring them up in a way that looks at the relationship of human and superhuman.

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>>92307694
I liked a lot of the ideas more than I liked the execution.

And a lot of the alternate versions of characters were cool. I imagine that's why a handful of them became canon.

Lot of really neat designs too.

>>92308940
>Superman and Wonder Woman were antagonist as fuck toward each other throughout the entire comic.
No. That's called tension. WW respected Kal and saw how he 'abandoned' his post. She was also angry at herself because she failed in her mission.
Towards the end that turns to sexual tension, and thus, a baby.

>>92309247
Dick retired.
Bruce mentioned it to Kal when he said "You managed to convince Dick to put on the mask again.

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>>92307694
-High hopes when it came out
-Ross & Waid were arguably at their peak
-The internet was still kind of new & lots of online excitement discussion about all the Easter eggs.
-Big majestic art that was very fresh for its time.

But...

-When it was all done it just wasn't the sum of its parts.
-A LOT of people were turned off by their fave B-listers getting nuked so the trinity could learn a lesson that...at their age they should have already known.
-And it really doesn't hold up on repeated readings.

I'll never HATE it but it's neither as good or as important as DC makes it out to be.

I'll probably get shit for this but I think Justice holds up a LOT better.

>>92309422
>For example you wouldn't know that Wonder Woman became disgraced by her own people for failing mission just by reading the comic.
Except for the 2 big scenes where she told Arthur, and then later Kal about it.
I swear you people have no reading retention.

>>92310428
The art wasn't the only thing that was garbage.
That series and the one offs were pure shit on toast.

>>92321512

The point is still fucked because you've Superman and Wonder Woman, two godly beings, becoming a couple and adding to the problem by delivering unto the world another godly being that represent the culmination of their powers, and asking a fascist fuck who's far above normal humans to be their baby's godparent because Wonder Woman feared their child would grow lack the proper human perspective being raised by only her and Superman. It showed that Wonder Woman was aware that she and Superman are disconnected from humanity.

And Wonder Woman teaching anyone, much less the reckless metas how to behave is hilariously fucked up.

>>92321578

Wonder Woman showed to have no respect for Superman's world-view, just as Superman was appalled by Wonder Woman's. The only thing she seemed to respect was his influence on rallying the troops, which she needed from him.

The only excuse the comic gave for its pitiful attempt at romance was that Wonder Woman acted as an aggressive cunt because she did everything with "passion". That meant her fighting Clark was a sign of her passion for him, her wanting to murder the fuck out of the enemies was her passion for peace, and so on.

>>92321644
legacy

>>92315013
>When they frame the fucking Joker dying as a BAD thing
It was.
Think about it. Magog did what people have been saying needed to be done for years. Superman, still trying to do the right thing is lambasted by the public. They're tired of the goody two shoes thing and demand that the heroes step up and start taking care of business.
He says "Alright. Have it your way", and leaves.
Soon we have all these characters who kill. Not just the really big bads, but the little guys, criminals who've surrendered, etc. Then it escalates. Collateral damage? Big deal we killed the villain. Soon it became more than just bad guys, but 'heroes' started going after each other. Like gangs. Turf wars rumbles, etc.
People were no longer safe anymore. It was the domino effect.

>>92321396
hnnnnnnnnnnng

>>92320689
We Told You So: Comics as Art

>>92321728
>>92321881
Nah. You just need to reread it again. Maybe have an adult help you with the big words and high concepts.

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The only thing I don't like about it is they though it was a good idea to let a dude named Magog join the Justice Society. No one had read a bible? Or could throw that name through google?

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>>92322178

>>92322192
Flash looks like he's about to hit a super speed dab.

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>>92322192

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>>92322231

>>92322059

No, i've re-read it many times. I'm right about it. The comic really fail in a lot of things.

Much better ending would be if the trinity tried to reintegrate into the society to recapture their humanity, specially Superman and Wonder Woman, but instead the two end up isolating themselves by marrying each other and raising a godly child together.

Sure, they tried to show Wonder Woman trying to remind Superman to be more Clark with glasses with her cosplaying as his Lois for him, but then they go and point out her worry about their child growing without any human perspective despite their attempts to live normal lives.

All i can think of their ending is a another apocalyptic scenario a la DKR III: The Master Race.

>>92322231

Turning Wonder Woman into a stand-in for Lara is really fucked up. It's like, where the respect for her mythology?

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>>92307694
To be fair, the characters ARE shadows of their former selves. It's straight up pointed out that guys like Mr. Scott and The Flash are barely human or barely relate to humans at that point. Wonder Woman going all extremist cunt isn't TOO farfetched in light of that.

I will say the Supes/Diana romance was stupid if only because she came across as less of a love interest and more of a bitchy know it all sister throughout the story.

>>92322264
>I'm right about it
Not really, no. You THINK you're right about it, but it's only your opinion. You're too hung up on this "god-child" and you're missing the bigger picture.
But whatever. It's no skin off my ass whether you like it or not.

>>92322382

My only problem with the romance is the ending. I'd be fine if they ended up together, but in... i don't know, if Waid and Ross put far less emphases on their otherness, you know?

>>92322543

The comic goes out of its way to shed light on the "god-child" thing, though. And i understand the point the comic is trying ot make, my point is that the comic do things that goes counterclockwise to it.

>>92322562
I think that's a common complaint with the two

Part of the problem I think is Wondy's identity crisis. Writing romance means the characters have to find some kind of common ground eventually and since DC has been struggling to find Wondy's ideal gimmick, when she and Superman hook up the keyword tends to be "loftiness"

>>92322192
Who died?

>>92322864
The only one who was never called anything but Mortal throughout the whole book.

>>92322864
Seriously?

>>92322059
high concept does not mean what you think it means

>>92322836

DC sees the Superman and Wonder Woman connective tissue to be their super-powers, or in other words the fact that they share things in common including that they're different from everyone else. Which is an angle forced as fuck, but whatever.

That's why the whole thing comes off as mighty and superior, and tend to be used a lot as excuse to create distopian scenarios.

>>92322192
>That fucking skull guy in the background

I cant remember his name but shouldn't he be chilling with Bruces ghost?

>>92323159
>skull guy
Deadman?

>>92322192
Is that the shadow? Shouldn't he have died way before batman?

>>92317874
THIS

Jesus Christ, it fucking hurt to read this. The long, dry, obnoxious monologues are as awful as the art is great.

>>92320867
>not knowing about Son of the Demon
>thinking that Bruce's son in this story and the Damian version are even conceptually the same

>>92316192
I'm glad to see this is still making rounds.

>>92321644
I don't like seeing Ralph getting shit on by Plas because Ross is a literal manchild, but yeah, Justice is a much stronger work overall.

>>92325532
That is a definite weakness, Ross plays favorites & there is just NO fucking reason Ralph would behave like that.

>>92325532
Plastic Man > Elongated Man though.

>>92327375
while that is true that doesn't mean you have to spend pages of Plastic Man shitting on Ralph

>>92307962
The 90s were a weird time. It was simultaneously the best and one of the worst eras for mainstream American comics. The worst thing is that the shittiest part of the 90s US comics affected way too much the indie and international comic scene in a very negative way.

>>92323134
How the fuck do you know?
I never stated my definition of it, so either you're projecting, or psychic.
So tell me, Criswell. What's the stock market going to do in the next quarter.

>>92324471
It's the priest. Who just happens to look like the Shadow.
Remember Ross loves Easter Eggs.

Can we agree that the best part of the book was "Spinach and cottage cheese?!"

>>92328479
The best part of the book was Scott and Barda's daughter

>>92327395
YES YOU DO!

Come on, where else are we gonna get good ol' Plas drawn by Alex Ross?

I don't think I've enjoyed anything that Mark Waid wrote.

>>92328128
do you not know what context clues are

The way you used it shows you don't know what it means

>>92328479
I'll agree to that

>>92329140
Not even Flash?

>>92331415
speed force ruined Flash stories forever, so no
Messner-Loebs' run was based as fuck

>>92327521
I have the theory that this happened because the 90s were the clash between the writers and artists that were trained in old school capeshit, like Alex Ross, and the new school of cringy edgelords like Liefeld. Those trained by the old school were so good at embracing silliness that, when this fedoras entered the scene and started gaining popularity, it was very easily to criticize or just plain mock them. It's the reason why most seminal 90s capeshit comics, like Kingdom Come here, are stories that openly confront and make fun off dumbasses like Liefeld and McFarlane.

>>92307694
It is a big one shot where Alex Ross creates a bunch of what I can not simply call drawings, but feel heavily inclined to call paintings.

I do however think Mark Waid is a colossal faggot and that irredeemable is the 2nd worst comic I have ever read.

>>92333974
well that's a retarded theory and you should kill yourself

>>92322192
I like that by this point The Flash is so interconnected to the Speed Force that he might as well be Dr. Manhattan. They foreshadow that a lot

>>92333974
Daily reminder Chuck Austen drew Miracleman and you're a faggot

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>>92334004
>defending the late 90s edgefest

>>92334093
a lot of the best comics from the 90s came from young new school up-and-coming punks

I wish Alex Ross would come back to DC already

Batman likes his steak well-done in that.

>>92311056
Fucking delete this image right now or I'm calling the police.

>>92308369
>Martian Manhunter is insane for some reason, Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist
They literally explain all of this you dumb nigger