Why are we pretending that arbitrary race and gender changes

>>92087520
Mcu whiners. Plus people with selective memories.

We have people thinking marvel heroes never infighted but they did in most of the team ups.

How many times do we have to explain that nobody here reads or knows anything about comics?

Why are the professional comics press pretending that arbitrary race and gender changes are politically progressive and virtuous?

>>92087520
Because back then it was a big deal. It was a fresh way to continue a title and see how a character dealt with their life and the responsibility differently.

Now, it happens constantly and to multiple mantles at once. Many of which are not especially interesting characters.

To put it another way, you have to want to see where the story is going with it and accompany the character on their journey. With many of the new mantle characters, you don't end up caring about the character and the story just exists to sell the aforementioned character.

>>92087717
>>92087728

Mental gymnastics.

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>>92087520

>>92087579
>>92087758
stop using my name to shitpost

>>92087758
How so?

Raceswapping a mantle is like a random death in an event. Or events themselves these days.

Its just a cheap meaningless sales booster that's staler than the oldest plot device.

>>92087520
How is "arbitrary" to have comics reflect real world diversity? Fuck off you cunt. If anything is 'arbitrary' it's you bringing it up. Stupid, stupid fucking child.

>>92087813
I still love this.

>>92087813
kek

>>92087837
Point of comics is to sell.

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>>92087520

Because it was usually better written and not applied to all heroes at the same time.

>>92087520
Wasn't Rhodes a satellite character in Iron Man and a hero in his own right for years before he became Iron Man?

>>92087841
>If I intentionally mis-interpret the question, I don't have to answer it.

>>92087520
I don't think many people have a problem with race changing a character as a general rule, but when you change a character's race for the sake of race, or gender for the sake of gender ect, it cheapens that character. Suddenly Tony Stark loses what makes him special if there's a 13 year old black girl who can do what took him decades to master. Thor without his Godhood or worthyness can work for a while but before too long people want to see Thor be Thor again.

And the problem with Marvel is they've done this move a dozen times over in a short space.

Within the realm of about 4 years we've seen a new Spider-Man, Thor, Cap, Hulk, Iron Man, and likely several others im too sleepy to remember. It's too much too soon - and in doing this, what used to make Spidey, Cap, Hulk ect feel like special, solid, well defined characters suddenly becomes watered down.

Legacy characters can work. DC tends to do them better in cases like Wally West, Robin and a few others... but that's because they're not tokens. It's not WOAH LOOK WHAT WEEEEEE DID! A BLACK GREEN LANTERN?! HOOOOOO BOY ARENT WE PROGRESSIVE! NOT A FAN? YOURE A BIGGOT! WE ARE SO CULTRUALLY IN TOUCH!... sure they can use those characters to explore race, sexuality and such - but they never felt like someone reached into a hat and pulled out a card saying GL, then another card saying NEGRO.

With Marvel, that's kinda how it feels.

>>92087895
Was about to say the same.

The problem isn't that legacy characters exist. People would like it if it were done the right way like how people liked Rhodey.

The problem is Marvel keeps handing the mantle to complete fucking strangers they JUST introduced.

>>92087841
Because in real life the increasingly Hispanic majority aren't born as "Cuban Tony Stark" or "Puerto Rican Diana Prince". They have their own identities.

The problem with mantle diversity is just that; its mantle diversity.

Imagine if instead of Black Panther we just got a second Mr Fantastic who's black and named T'challa. It'd be a stupid gimmick everyone forgets existed as soon as its over.

If you want more diversity, you create new heroes. Not just slap a new secret identity on a new title.

>>92087895
he was Iron Man well before he was ever War Machine

>>92087886
That's not an excuse for an increasingly inferior product.

We're not going to give Michael Bay or Uwe Boll an award for making money, we're going to mock them for being talentless shit-pushers.

If you're going to make something crappy just for profit, you're going to be treated like it. You may have the money, but you don't get the praise.

>>92087971
Quality is relative. Only reason people are crying about this is because the industry changed.

And you can't adapt.

>>92087923
Quirky and relatable teenagers, no less.

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>>92088017
>mfw "NEED A LITTLE VIVAPORU FOR THAT BURN????"

>>92088001
Actually, the problem as I pointed out is the industry is not changing. Great reading comprehension there.

They are repeating the same gimmicks over and over with increasingly less effort and planning so it has gotten extremely stale.

Just like event comics and character deaths, race or gender swaps are an overused, predictable, and mundane thing now.

>>92087520
This had actual impact. During a time period when people were still publicly and straightforwardly segregated based on their skin colour, the comics seriously questioned whether the colour of skin matters from behind the mask and approached the dilemma for all directions, positive and negative.

The new shit is mostly "Thor is now a black girl - And that is empowering and awesome!" in an era where glass ceilings have been completely shattered and global competition leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless of sex or who your parents were.

>>92088001
>quality is relative
right, and relative to every other company, Marvel is garbage

>>92088104
>leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless who your parents were.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>92088107
Anon, have you ever read Valiant books? They're the retarded inbred offspring of what was popular at Marvel and DC a decade ago.

>>92088130
Oh yeah, unless you are a jew, forgot that.

>>92087728
In summary: You've out grown the target audience.

Much like how people question why Batman doesn't kill the joker.

>>92087943
You are correct sir, but he was in the comics for four years before he became Iron Man so its not like it came out of left field.

>>92088130
>And see, now I don't have to make an argument

>>92088133
well that's funny, because what was popular at Marvel and DC a decade ago was actually good

because it's quality that matters

nobody really got mad at sam being the new cap because he had earned it over decades

the problem is when fem-thor becomes thor (because somehow thor is unworthy, despite tons of other bad shit he's done that never made him unworthy) it's at the expense of supervillains who have KILLED, turning around and "OMG YOU'RE FEMTHOR NOW GURRRL POWER, YOU CAN PUNCH ME FOR FREE"

that is inexecusable

>>92087520
It's not that they haven't always existed to some degree, it's that they've started doing it to appeal moral busybodies so they can furiously masturbate to how socially conscious they are.

It's obnoxious.

>>92087520
better question is, how the fuck did he fit that helmet on his head? That shit is clearly a size too small for him.

>>92088269
Pym Particles/Unstable Molecules

>>92088158
The target audiance is older than me.
Comics aren't made for kids anymore.

Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker? Its a comic for kids.

Why did the Joker rape the wife of a man he killed in the backseat of a car? Because comics aren't made for kids anymore.

So why can Joker rape but Batman can't kill?
Because they want to have their cake and eat it too. That's a problem.

4chan is full of 13-year old kids and 20-year old casuals. So their opinion is as relevant as those movie casuals. /pol/ is full of gaymergayte retards, pretentious assholes that believe racism is funny and "ironic", and a couple of actual racists; circlejerking and manufacturing outrages.

Very few of the anons actually know what they're talking about, hence why you must be a fool to believe what is written here. Including the "outrage" of the "white genocide" being commited by the "SJW cucks XDDDD" at (((insert company name here)))

>>92088179
Valiant uses the style but not th substance.

Like the shitty cash-ins that try to capitalize on a theme after a Hollywood blockbuster. Or a Chinese knockoff.

>>92088405
What did he mean by this

>>92088417
and now Marvel has neither style nor substance

>>92088104
in an era where glass ceilings have been completely shattered and global competition leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless of sex or who your parents were.

are you stupid?

>>92087841
To start with, /co/ is love. It's bad for your health to be that angry.

Secondly, you're correct, in that it's not arbitrary, but wrong in that it represents real world diversity.

It's crying in the aisles political messaging, and I mean that literally in the case of Bendis. And if it were to match the real world, we wouldn't be making more black swaps, and creating asians, hispanics, and mainstream republicans instead.

>>92087895
Supporting character for several years, but was never war machine until after.

>>92087932
>>92087922
I think bigger problem is quality of execution. See: New Superman. No lead in, completely new lead, and pretty much entirely new supporting cast. Very well recieved by /co/

Also, it's the nature of comics to snap back to earlier continuity. Everyone knows that shit will eventually return to it's more famous form. Excepting possibly Kamala.

>>92088405
You can click that red x up there on the upper right, anytime you like anon. It's probably better for you anyways.

>>92088400
>Why did the Joker rape the wife of a man he killed in the backseat of a car?
I'm pretty sure that never happened. And if it did, it was in something shitty and noncanonical, like that Azzarello Joker one-off.

>>92088434
Still better than Valiant.

You're basically saying McDonalds is the worst burgers in the world because the only other kind you have eaten is Carls JR burgers.

Valiant is like a burger that is somehow both cooked into a grey tasteless slab while also being frozen pink in the middle.

We get it, you don't like Marvel. Its cheap and not very good.
But saying its the absolute worst just demonstrates profound ignorance.

>>92087813
rhodey was cool as iron man but he sucks as war machine because he always turns into generic angry black army guy

>>92088440
Move to a non-third world country.

>>92087520
Because we weren't alive to bitch about them at the time.

That's it, that is is literally the only thing that separates the agenda-pushing of the past from the agenda-pushing of today. When people argue that it was "done better", what they really mean is "I didn't have to live through it at the time so it doesn't ass-blast me as much."

Because they didn't just change Tony Stark into a black guy. James Rhodes was a character long before he became Iron Man

>>92087520
But Rhodie has always been black.

>>92088483
Actually, storytimes of pain are of interest to me. I haven't read much of the current Valiant lineup, just the new Faith run, with the nadir being the election special, and a little bit of crossover with Woody and some of the Harbringers.

What's the worst they've got?

>>92088450
it's the Azz Joker book, but he killed the guy later in the story. Not Joe Chill pimped his wife to the Joker as payment for something, The Joker didn't kill Not Joe Chill then rape his wife on top of his corpse.

that would be obscene.

>>92088523
Faith

most of Valiant is actually in the "perfectly acceptable" range, with a few bright spots

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>>92088450
So you don't know it never happened, showing you don't read comics and don't have the background to have a proper discussion with, and dismissed it ever happening out of hand because you can't find a counter-argument.

Well it did happen and in mainstream continuity, and its actually the first time that Batman not killing the Joker became a major argument rather than something someone like Kevin Smith who overthinks things brought up every so often. As such, its actually integral to this discussion and something you should know before you attempt to debate it.

>>92088071
No. The problem is you don't want change. Every reset is because whiners want their childhood back.

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>>92087520
I think we all accept at this point that its just white identitarians trying to hold onto things that were never really theres.
It makes a lot of sense given the age comics goes back to versus the age of these people (I wont say neo nazi because of the bitchfit it'd cause, but ya). they have no idea what the shifting culture has ACTUALLY been, and so instead just choose to get bootyhurt about this stuff and claim it was always in there "culture".

Wont be long before they get mad at black people in anime :P

>>92088493
I'm guessing your interactions in circles involving old money and legacies are nonexistant.

>>92088555
I don't think Azz Joker is in-continuity

>>92088269
Negro voodoo magic.

>>92088434
Depends. Modern valiant is quite boring to me, i prefer the early version.

Plus they rebooted as much as dc did. And can't use solar, magnus, turok again. Very crappy.

I don't care about the obese faith either.

>>92088579
All right you got me, I am legacy.

>>92088602
>they rebooted as much as dc did
twice in 30 years?

>>92088490
One big problem is that they don't have a clean concept on exactly what he should be. Ironically enough, the mostly terrible War Machine 2.0 actually did have a good read.

>>92088523
Valiant is entirely mediocre with nothing notable or interesting.

They aren't cringe, but you can read an entire series and forget it because there's nothing noteworthy to remember.

>>92088562
>Every reset is because writers want their childhood back.

ftfy

>>92088513
Sames goes for the rest. Miles was never ultimate pete with a black skin change.

People just want to whine and contradict themselves. When emotions take over a person entire mind, they become unstable.

If you don't like it, just quit and read back issues.

>>92088400
Alan Moore was right.

>>92088405
You type like a fag but I feel you anon.
I feel you.

>>92088577
You're completely wrong. I'm a strong believer in multiculturalism. Pretending that the people who dislike this, dislike it just because of racisim is a disservice to everyone.

>>92088483
>>92088627
>I was raped by a Valiant employee

>>92088616
They rebooted multiple times in the 90s. And every relaunch. And will so again in your lifetime.

Writers are in a bad position no matter what they do with minority characters.

Introduce a new minority character, people will complain and the character might not be successful(this is a problem for all new characters).

Give an existing minority character a push people will whine and say that an existing white character was more deserving of the push.

Have a minority character(new or existing) take over for an established character people cry white genocide.

Then there are those who complain that a minority character isn't ethnic enough.

I think that Marvel has the right idea, the writers do what they feel like with minority characters and seem not to care about criticism. All they need now is good stories.

>>92088577
>Wont be long before they get mad at black people in anime :P

Japan still thinks blackface is hilarious, making every white person into Buffy or John Wayne is fine, and that making fun of South Koreans is family humor.

It gives 0 fucks what anyone not Japanese thinks.

>>92088674
are we talking about DC or Valiant here

>>92088652
Not really. I said resets.

Most resets are due to backlash. Actual chamge would require all the favs to age and stay dead and be replaced by new heros.

Something this industry hasn't being doing since the 70s.

>>92088698
Both. Learn to read. Surely you read the 90s stuff?

>>92088616
not counting the Gold Key stuff before and after, since it wasn't a shared universe there's the original 1991 Valiant Universe

The 1998 Acclaim Universe

and the current one

>>92088611
>it's a rich kid doesn't understand
life works if you aren't rich episode.

you don't know how much of a boon that is.

>>92088688
>Writers are in a bad position no matter what they do with any characters.

>>92088728
Zero Hour was a continuity fix, not a reboot

relaunches are not reboots

the only reboots DC has done are Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint

>>92088711
Again, because of writers.

Nobody dies because thete's nobody to replace them. Why is there so few new characters? Because there's a VERY well documented history of the big two assraping creators who wanted to continue sketching the characters they created on commission at conventions, or fucking up the character with them having no say.

That's why anyone who wants to make something truly new and keep doing it goes to Image or Dark Horse. Fuck, its why Image and Dark Horse exist in the first place.

>>92088753
A relaunch is a soft reboot, and the public sees it as the same. They aren't regarded warmly.

>>92088789
>they aren't regarded warmly
>he says as Rebirth continues to dominate

>>92087520
Pic not related right?
Because Rhodey wasn't replacing Tony as Iron Man, he was just fullfilling a supplementary role.

An occasional side kick if you will.

>>92088812
>Because Rhodey wasn't replacing Tony as Iron Man
he literally was, though. He was the only Iron Man for years.

>>92087520
Because Rhodes is Tony's friend so it actually felt like it meant something.

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>>92088490
Sounds familiar.

>>92088945
It's the difference between Captain Falcon and Riri.

It's not required for a legacy to be set up in advance, but it's much easier to sell the character's place in the world without making them look like a poochie.

>>92088653
>Miles was never ultimate pete with a black skin change.

Might as well been. Miles barely acts any different than Peter in the costume.

>>92087520
Anon, you might wanna look for a better example. Jim had been a supporting character on the title for a while when he started being Iron Man the first time. He was his own character already and him taking the armor wasn't really arbitrary, it was either him or Happy.
There's Eddie March but he was a single(or 2 can't remember now) issue thing.

>>92088269
That iron man suit was elastic. He could wear it under his clothes and everything.

>>92087520
Because now a days it's done with all the subtilty of a brick to the face.

>>92087520

Rhodey had been a popular supporting character in Iron Man for several years before this happened, he was Tony Stark's hand-picked replacement, and his not being a genius inventor like Tony completely changed the tone of the book in a way that shook everything up.

Fans were able to embrace this a lot more than they were with Riri, who came out of nowhere to become the new Iron Man in the space of a few months, and possesses all of Stark's genius and inventing skills.....but better than he ever was!

There's also all those old stories about Tony fighting to prevent his Iron Man technology being used by others, going to war with former allies and friends over this, and now people are supposed to believe he would just hand everything over to some teenager he just met.

Rhodey and Riri are the "how to" and "how not to" of replacement superheroes.

It's also important to note that when Rhodey was Iron Man, Steve Rogers was still Captain America, Bruce Banner was still Hulk, Thor was still Thor, Logan was still Wolverine, Peter Parker was the only Spider-Man, etc. One well-handled replacement hero at a time can earn attention, sales, and fans. When you're replacing everyone at the same time, you start alienating too many longtime fans at once.

And then you refuse to back down, because you care more about your ideology than about sales, and everyone waits for Disney to start paying attention, and fire everyone in Marvel editorial.

>>92088978
To me that motherfucker is always an architect first

Rodey is cool.

>>92090031
>Who were USAgent, Thunderstrike, Ben Reilly?

>>92090258
Yea he was Tony's bro.

>>92087835
Get a trip

>>92090365
No, I'm Spartacus!

>>92090031
Like if Miles had been Ultimate Peter's friend and took up the mantle using Tech or something during his death/absence then he'd gel a bit better. Being a random person to just decide to be Spider-Man is never going to fit well.

Doing it in the Memory of his old friend would give him some grounds that he doesn't have and never will.

>>92088772
Nope fans.

Fans are the fault regardless of anything. Stop demanding regression and crying about change.

>>92090513
so are you a full-time employee or is this a work-for-hire sort of thing

>Batowl is the intern

Huh, didn't see it at first.

>>92090313

John Walker was Captain America after Rhodey was Iron Man, there's about a year between the two storylines. There are a few Iron Man issues during this time where Rhodey suited up as a 2nd Iron Man to assist Tony, but he wasn't the main Iron Man at the time.

Erik Masterson's time as the new Thor does overlap with Rhodey's 1992 stint as Iron Man, following Stark's faked death, but that time only lasted about 6 issues with him as the 'new' Iron Man, it was really more about setting him up to become War Machine.

By the time Ben Reilly was the new Spider-Man, in 1995-6, Rhodes, Walker and Masterson had moved on to new identities as War Machine, US Agent and Thunderstrike. And Thunderstrike died shortly before Ben became the new Spidey.

The only replacement-hero to overlap with him was the teenaged Tony Stark, a change Marvel backed out of even faster than they backed out of Ben being "the real Spider-Man".

So at worst, old Marvel had 2 replacements at one time, one of which was very short-lived. This is worlds away from modern Marvel, where Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Wolverine, Giant-Man, Nick Fury, Quasar, Ms Marvel, and Moon-Boy have all been replaced at the same time, plus Captain America, Nova and Spider-Man are sharing their identities with other guys.

>>92090786
don't forget Wasp being replaced and Hawkeye sharing his identity with THE REAL HAWKEYE

>>92087520
>We've been getting served shit for a long time, therefore we must pretend it tastes good

>>92090871
I haven't been following hawkeye story but what do you mean THE REAL HAWKEYE?

>>92087520
>Why are we pretending

Because that would invalidate the petty racist complaints.

>>92087520

I have now idea, unless it's just people looking to be triggered about something.

>>92091029
http://marvel.com/comics/issue/61276/hawkeye_2016_1

Kate is occasionally being billed as The Real Hawkeye

>>92090947
But back then it wasn't shit and made some sense. Tony was fucked up mentally and couldn't do the job. Thor was dead so we got Masterson and his Thor Corps moment later on.

Those were good setups. Now we keep having new ones shoved in with no real build up to take mantels were told they've earned a right to but not shown or given a meager connection to that legacy.

Its all garbage this current binge of mantel passing.

Heck only one that feels any good was Kamala and they are quickly ruining her.

>>92092432
Kamala doesn't have shit beyond being a fangirl of superheroes and a victim of Carol Danver's propaganda campaign.

>>92091087
Wait so kate bishop the original hawkeye or something because from the info of the comic it's saying she's been saving his but for awhile.

>>92092591
Kate is the second Hawkeye who took up the name while Clint was dead and she was kind of his sidekick for a while even though they were both going by Hawkeye

and now she gets the solo and the hype while Clint is relegated to an Avengers book

>>92092567
But she's got one up not constantly telling us she's earned this mantel for reasons and doing showy crap to tell us how she's better than her predecessor.

>>92087520

We aren't. It's just they've always been shit and we like to complain about shit things.

>>92087520

That wasn't arbitrary, plebeian.

>>92092756
But what IS arbitrary, really?

Execution matters. Marvel's too smug and self congratulatory about it now and that's a huge turn off.

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>>92088490
What ever happened to his niece Lila? She was a small time inventor who helped repair Rodey's armour in that mini.She's an interesting character if you think about it. Her mother was killed in The Crew years ago, her dad and grandfather were also killed and her uncle was killed by Thanos in CW2. She should be a borderline supervillain with all the shit thats happened to her. If I was working at Marvel I'd have her as the antagonist in like Captain Marvel or Riri's books. So many forgotten characters with potential....

>>92090313
Ben Reilly was very controversial. On one hand there were people who thought it was a terrible idea to have a clone running around (case in point: Wizard Magazine taking shots at Reilly on a regular basis) on the otherhand he's actually generally inoffensive in the story (but that's partly because Marvel wanted to make him the real Peter). Fan resentment happened when it was actually revealed Ben was the real Peter and Peter was the Clone. It took a long time to recover sales after that.

I don't think anything similar happened when John Walker was Cap or Eric Masterson was Thor.

>>92093543
Riri also has a shitton of dead people in her past. That isn't an excuse to be evil.

>>92087520
It's not race changes what people are mad about, it's senselss changes and shitting on legacies that make people mad.

We've had close to 6 legacy characters in the past 5 years and most of them were either "literally whos" or characters whose change didn't felt all that organic. It really REALLY doesn't help that Marvels reaction towards opposition is to parade the character even harder and to shit on the previous torchbearer.

>>92093879
Doesn't help that naturally the character them self putting on the shoes of a previous hero would be hard to live up to and people around would be asking "Where is __?" and "Who are you?" and how the character would have find their own unique way of over coming these issues but the new way is just making the new person stronger, faster, smarter than the previous one and claiming that anyone who says different is just being backwards and racist.

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>>92090031
One of the problems I noticed is that Bendis didn't even give the minimum amount of time to develop Riri and show why she should be Iron Man's replacement, other than "she's like Tony Stark."

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>>92094559
These are basically all the pages devoted to her in Invincible Iron Man and Civil War II up until the Marvel Now relaunch.

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>>92094585

>>92094585
>>92094559
>>92094611
What's with the art?

>>92094559
>>92094585
>>92094611
Deodato stopped even pretending, didn't he

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>>92094611

>>92094625
They used some software that makes 3d models and just throws a filter over it to make it look like it's drawn.

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>>92094634

>>92094670
Wow, that's just...lazy.

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>>92094695

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>>92094719

>>92094770
>cops stopping to ask a black girl questions before shooting her
this seems unrealistic

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>>92094770
Sometime later in the next issue Tony was looking for someone at MIT but she wasn't there, so then the Dean brought up Riri because he thought Tony was there to find her instead.

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>>92094837

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>>92094857

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>>92094877

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>>92094900

>>92087520
The difference is Rhodey was organic. It didn't feel forced or obnoxious for him to become Iron Man. Even Sam as Captain America feels forced due to the writing and way it's being handled, which honestly it should've felt as organic as Rhodey.

>>92088982

Now if only Captain Falcon wasn't so bogged down by bad/shlocky writing.

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>>92094925

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>>92094999

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>>92094999
I'm not all that well versed in Iron Man history but I'm sure him needing an A.I. is a relatively new thing.

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>>92095044
Then it moves on to Civil War II where she makes an appearance in the opening fight of the war.

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>>92095066
And I think this was the only time she spoke in CW2.

>>92087520
There's no race and gender change here, this is what's called a 'legacy', Jim Rhodes has pretty much always been Tony Stark's friend, so it makes sense, when Tony's incapable of performing as Iron Man, that Jim'd take over. This is nothing like killing an established hero (for probably the second or third time this decade no less) just so you can have some random black lady take his place.

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>>92094939

They literally had the perfect character to use for this shit already in Lila Rhodes, Rhodey's niece. Young black woman? Check. Intellectually gifted? Check. Interested in engineering? Check. Preexisting connection to Stark? Check. Has worked on Iron Man/Patriot armor in the past? Check. Has an actual motivation to get into super heroism due to the recent death of her uncle? Check.

Like, all the ingredients for an organic passing of the mantle were already there. A new character didn't need to be made for this, they already had one waiting to be lifted into the spotlight and developed more.

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>>92095091
And that was it. That's pretty much all that's established of Riri before she became Tony's replacement. It feels like all her character is, is that she's super-smart and doesn't play by the rules... Like Tony.

>>92095132
but using an existing character doesn't get them creator credit movie bucks of which there will be none because Marvel doesn't pay shit for royalties

>>92095162
Yeah I mean I get why Bendis and Slott and others try to push their OCs a lot in the hopes that if they get into the MCU they get some sort of participation deal (obviously not as big as the DC one but apparently there may be a few perks) and be able to move more TPBs of their work.

But in the case of Riri I feel like as if she was created as an afterthought in the same way it felt like Bendis killed Rhodey as an afterthought.

>>92095132
But, anon, that would means Bendis wouldn't get to create AN EXITING NEW CHARACTER that will shower him with praise for bringing it to the world.

>>92095245
everything is an afterthought for Bendis

>>92087520
Because there were also new heroes being made alongside race/gender-swapped ones that stuck to current day (Black Panther, Luke Cage) or otherwise characters who were just as good as the original and were able to grow and be their own character (Jon Stewart, War Machine)

Now it's just entirely re-imaginings with shit soapbox writing that get canned after a few months because of how bad they are. So now we have no new heroes + "progressive" switches that are abandoned in favor of the original and nothing of consequence happens other than several issues of bad writing for multiple properties.

A smart black woman who takes up Iron Man's mantle isn't a bad idea. It's a bad idea that she isn't Rhodes' daughter who is doing it in honor of his memory and after a period of feeling like she can't live up to that identity, creates her own. Her personality and motivations are not interesting enough to be her own character and people are always going to prefer Tony Stark so she'll be long forgotten in a year or so.

>Lila Rhodes as the new Ironman
Wouldn't it make more sense for her to become the new War Machine since she is probably much closer to her dead uncle than Tony Stark?

>>92094634
>Optimus-Gundam mashup
What a nerd

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>>92087520
When Rhodey became Iron Man he had a long learning curve trying to figure out HOW to be Iron Man, he made mistakes, was full of doubt but slowly found his way and became the best Iron Man he could. Not better or worse than Tony but different.

Now at Marvel any replacement for a classic character is IMMEDIATELY pushed as being superior to the original without any real narrative demonstration & just denigrate the original instead.

>>92096118

>Now at Marvel any replacement for a classic character is IMMEDIATELY pushed as being superior to the original without any real narrative demonstration & just denigrate the original instead.

Sam had a real learning curve being Cap.

>>92095731
Riri and Lila as rivals seems like it could be neat. Or you could go full girls in armor and have them form a "Iron Squadron" with Iron Patriot and Enigma. Maybe through in an "All-New, All Different Crimson Dynamo" of a Russian girl that is tenuously aligned with them only because they share a larger enemy and is a spy that is collecting information for her homeland.

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>>92087835
Don't you get it?

I was you all along

>>92096151
>Sam had a real learning curve being Cap.
Strawman racists saying he's 'not the real Cap' isn't a learning curve.

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>>92096303

>>92087520

Just like the SJWs the 'racially aware whites' don't read comics, never have, and likely never will, they just like to bitch as loudly as possible

Hence why all the pandering to the representation crowd didn't sell comics, because those dicks never bought comics in Thier lives and probably never will. If they turn around and pander to the other loud political idiots in the room they likely won't start buying comics all of the sudden either

They should try pandering to the likes-well-written comics crowd, they actually buy shit from time to time.

>>92095473
Nail on the head. There's nothing wrong with minority characters, most people don't think they're shit because they hate women and niggers, they think they're shit because they're just NOTHING characters who are poorly developed and poorly written - Nine times out of ten readers are just told to like them in the marketing blurb (and even on the page) and if they don't, well then they must just be a misogynist racist.

I think the truth of what happened is just that shitty writers have found, in writing minority characters, a get-out-of-jail-free card for their shitty writing and poor characterisation. I fucking hate this, because not only would I actually LIKE to see well written female and minority characters with interesting backgrounds, but when shit, badly written female and minority characters come along people in the press and on the internet at large fucking DEFEND the shit characters and the shit writers.

>>92095162
>>92095274

I know, but this shit just rustles my corn flakes is all. It's all about credit, not about telling a good story.

>>92097124
welcome to modern comic books I guess

>>92094559
>One of the problems I noticed is that Bendis didn't even give the minimum amount of time to develop Riri and show why she should be Iron Man's replacement, other than "she's like Tony Stark."

Riri is especially bad because Iron Man is infamous for being super protective of his legacy. He had entire storylines like Armor Wars where he spent half his time fighting with the US government and SHIELD over access to his armor.

What's worse is that she makes Miles development seem like a Frank Miller script by comparison in pacing. I can't even name a single meaningful trait about Riri that's memorable.

Hell, the new war machine has more about her in place, and she's a low priority in an ensemble cast.

>>92096707
>I think the truth of what happened is just that shitty writers have found, in writing minority characters, a get-out-of-jail-free card for their shitty writing and poor characterisation. I fucking hate this, because not only would I actually LIKE to see well written female and minority characters with interesting backgrounds, but when shit, badly written female and minority characters come along people in the press and on the internet at large fucking DEFEND the shit characters and the shit writers.

It goes one step beyond. Look at the eisner nominations. Mockingbird is up for two eisners, including one for best writer. And Squirrel Girl picked up another nomination.

>>92094626
This is supposed to be Deodato?!
The fuck is he doing?

>>92094925
>this fucking dialogue
Jesus Christ, Benis really is a fucking living meme.

I will say one thing though, Riri has a pretty rocking body for a 15yo.

>>92098033
Anon, you don't get it. This is very powerful dialogue the brought Benis to tears.

>>92098193
Oh, if there's one thing Bendis can definitely do it's write dialogue that brings people to tears.

>>92098193
>>92098413
Brian Michaels Bendis is his own bitch.

>>92093543
If only Gruenwald was alive

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>>92095930
more like Optimus-Ingram Buster armor

>>92087971

And yet these "shit-pushers" have accomplished more than you can ever hope to in three lifetimes.

Try to contain your jelousy

>>92087520
Rhodey's not some try hard TOPICAL sjw OC.

>>92090513
Yeah fans hate change. That's why they hate Superdad, Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows, CassBat, StephBat, and WallyFlash and love One More Day, Flash Rebirth, and Nu52 Babs being Batgirl again instead of Cass or Steph. Oh wait it's the other way around.

Eat shit, intern.

>>92100283
no one likes Steph

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>>92088555
Did you not read his post, or are you fucking retarded?

>>92100304
No there are a lot of people who like Steph and her run as Batgirl. Maybe not that many on here but elsewhere like /r/dccomics

>>92088448
>See: New Superman.
There's also the issue that New Super-Man's cast aren't just coastal American liberals. 99% of Marvel's "diverse" characters talk and act identically because they're from identical backgrounds with different skin tones.

>>92101665
Well, it's what happens when the near entirety of the MU takes place in downtown NY. Kamala living in New Jersey was more exceptional than being a muslim.

>>92087837

I agree with that. It seems very hollow.

Anti racism stuff in Marvel is colored with the PC policing belief that if the person doesn't allign 100% with your political agenda, usually encompassing alot more than race, then you are someone to be ridiculed and demonized.

Also it's terribly written. Race issues in the 60s comics had actual race. Luke fought tons of black gangsters and his true arch nemesis was a racist cop. Iron Fist fought actual middle Eastern terrorists before people knew what that was and the IRA.

Does Kamala fight ISIS or radicals? Nope, they dance around it.

>>92087520
>>92087520
>in Marvel/DC Cape comcs

Fixed that for ya. Leave the 99% out of your 1% problems.

>>92102683
Well part of that is the writer. She did have a good issue dealing with that in her own book. Where she tried to fight in Pakistan and just screwed things up not knowing what was going on.

But in other books its agreed that its pretty bad. Champions sucks.

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>>92087520

When will this disgusting diversity propaganda end? It's the year 1975, people!

>>92087922
>Suddenly Tony Stark loses what makes him special if there's a 13 year old black girl who can do what took him decades to master.

This is a horrible example when being Iron Man is literally just putting on a robot suit, dude. Fucking Pepper Potts was doing that shit few years ago as Rescue and Rhodey naturally when he took over for Tony. The only difference now is that the replacement is a young black girl who happens to be a genius like Tony.

>>92088216
>nobody really got mad at sam being the new cap because he had earned it over decades

Oh people got plenty mad over it.

>>92102742
That's different and you know it. Completely new characters with their own backgrounds unrelated to any preexisting character.

>>92102854
Idiots that knew fuck all about his history with Cap.

Course his time as cap was hurt by that Axis event bullshit. Which makes the current Secret Empire stuff even more garbage.

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One that I can think was pretty good. Mainly because her writer isn't a freak trying to get people to love his OC.

>>92088620
was that his last series where he had the armor with the edgy face scar?

that was a weird comic because rhodey practically got kicked out of his own series

>>92094585
>>92094559
>>92094611
>>92094634
>>92094719
>Using Poser software with a heavy filter.

What the hell is wrong with Marvel? Just because Bendis phones it in doesn't excuse everyone else.

>>92088620
>One big problem is that they don't have a clean concept on exactly what he should be
i think the problem is that people see that he was always really pissed when he was iron man and they think that's his personality

they forget the part that rhodey was always angry as iron man because the armor was calibrated for tony, not him, and the interface was fucking up his brain

>>92103020
I thought that he was constantly cleaning up after tony's drunk primadonna bullshit also was a big part.

>>92095473
>t's a bad idea that she isn't Rhodes' daughter who is doing it in honor of his memory and after a period of feeling like she can't live up to that identity, creates her own.

So it's only cool if it's borderlone nepotism.

>>92095058
Pretty sure he went a good 25 years without one at least. The first serious one I recall was the one that started to "take over" and then sacrificed itself to save Tony on some island... this was mid to late 90's I think?

>>92103155
Yea I think that AI is meionted in the old Iron Manual (love that comic) he had him doing the testing of all the suits he was developing.

>>92103137
>So it's only cool if it's borderlone nepotism.

are you trying to collect >you s? There's a number of counterexamples in the thread already. Making a sudden replacement to an established existing character with zero lead in is different than setting the groundwork for the character, the storylines and the relationships, and is more likely to be seen as a cheap gimmic.

It's also very possible to launch a successful new legacy character with no real connection to the old ones., as the examples earlier in the thread show, but that takes a lot more execution and effort, and Bendis certainly isn't doing that.

>>92103169
He had one in his house/factory/workshop for a while before he put it in his suit if I recall, again though, this was in the 90's.

And yes, Iron Manual was pretty good stuff.

>>92087520
the people that get angry are usual casuals who don't know shit

>>92087520
Because it's great if the passing of the mantle is organic and meant as more than a gimmick, but to show that the predecessor has indeed outgrown their role as the premier hero and decides their successor should be someone that they can trust to fight the good fight. Rhodey's place as Iron Man was really great because we were shown how Tony fell and how Rhodey was there all along, trying and failing, to get him back in the saddle. Tony COULDN'T be Iron Man anymore. His life was taking a toll on his place in the superhero world and he couldn't trust himself to do the things Iron Man should be doing.

tl;dr: If you want to do it, do it well, make it look organic, and let it stick instead of being such a pander-machine.

>>92088158
What the actual Hell? How the in the actual fuck did you jump from someone saying that the character's ascent isn't likable enough to going to an ad hominem decrying that the person must be questioning on why doesn't the Batman kill the Joker? That's like... going on and saying that someone must love crashing cars on the road because they say they like Toyota.

>>92103155
>the one that started to "take over" and then sacrificed itself to save Tony
wasn;t that an Ultron tainted Jocasta?

>>92103414
That one comes later.

>>92103414
This is a very early AI and I think it "fell in love" with him or some shit. There was a good dose of creepy involved if I recall. One of the reasons it was years before he used serious AI's again if I recall.

>>92087520
Rodney makes sense to be the next Iron Man. He should have been the next Iron Man.

Instead we get a teenage fucking girl.

Besides we all know the real problem isnt including diversity, but how this diversity has been written in the books. Pandering and total garbage

>>92103698
>Besides we all know the real problem isnt including diversity, but how this diversity has been written in the books. Pandering and total garbage
I want to yell this from the mountains

>>92103698
We look back at the Capt America storytime from the 80's Preacher Anon has been doing for us and while we could probably use a few more black guys on the Avenger's roster, the cast is pretty diverse. Battlestar and Diamonback, a black guy and white woman (with purple side cut through most of it) have probably the biggest story arcs as far as character development goes and it's great.

My mantra for telling stories, in comics or games or movies or TV, doesn't matter: "You need to have a character who happens to be [black/gay/female/whatever], not a [black/gay/female/whatever] who is also a character."

Rhodey was a solid character who was Tony's employee and friend before he became Iron Man. *AND!* Him becoming Iron Man let the writers tell an interesting story of both Jim Rhodes taking over as Iron Man and the drama involved (and the fact that it slowly made him a little nutty) as well as Tony hitting rock bottom with the alcoholism and recovery.

Both were interesting stories that added to and helped shape both characters for decades to come. Not this current stuff, which is just utter shit to sell a few more comics.

>>92088555
>Being this stupid
>Being an edgelord

>>92104111
Very good point. Why was Rhody made Iron Man? Cause there was a wealth of good potential storys to be had.

Why was Riri made Iron Man? To boost sales through controversy.

Modern Marvel is dead.

>>92104216
>Why was Riri made Iron Man? To boost sales through controversy.

Bendis explicitly says it's to for ideological reasons in interviews. And the results have been about as good as a chick tract.

I have a question. Can anyone here describe Jim Rhodes personality outside of "tony's BFF"?

>>92087520
It's mostly about the real-life subtext for me, and changing as a person. I didn't mind diverse representation in fiction 10+ years ago, back when I had not seen yet what multiculturalism is or how insane the political left can go. But nowadays I'm aware that there are massive demographic shifts going on, they are most likely going to cause conflicts in the near future, and there are people agitating hatred against people like me while calling it "social justice". So basically my outlook on life has changed, which has made me touchy about any kind of fiction that seems to broadcast racial double-standards, or political messages that I don't agree with.
I would've preferred to judge everyone based on their personality and actions rather than their skin or gender, but people wanted identity politics and victim playing instead.

>>92087922
>DC tends to do them better in cases like Wally West
Are you serious? Black Wally is literally (and I do mean literally) just Wally-lite.

>>92104369
Oh he said it so it must be true. Cant have been to recapture the controversial magic of when he replaced Spiderman with a black teen.

Actually the more I think about it, the more of a fucking shameless rehash I realise Riri was

>>92087683
/thread

>>92104448
Ok, Plinkett Test:
"Describe a character without using their name, physical description, or job."

He is a pretty relaxed and laid back guy with good humor, wit and occasionally biting sarcasm. He had a kinda tough upbringing and wants to see better for others. Military service taught him duty, loyalty and self sacrifice, so he takes his duty very seriously and always tries to do his best regardless of circumstance. In the past he's gotten a hard edge at times, but normally ends up doing the right thing.


How's that?

>>92095930
Don't forget fallout

>>92087520

Rhody was THE major side character in Iron Man, introduced in issue 2, for goodness sake. He had been established as Tony's closest friend for YEARS before taking the mantle and it wasn't just thrust on him to fill some virtue-signalling quota.

It's the same reason people didn't mind Bucky or Sam taking up the mantle of Captain America. The story made sense and any of them taking over for their close friend was logical.

>>92102742

>An international team of mutants in a book that from issue 1 had always been about battling unfounded prejudices.

This was literally the perfect match. The original 5 were all WASPs so it made sense to make the new team as different as possible.

>A soft spoken Russian artist with a heart of gold during the height of Cold War paranoia
>A pious German cursed to look like a demon
>A short, hairy Canadian loner who trusted no one
>A literal African woman who grew up as a thief but was worshipped as a goddess
>An easy-going Irishman who was a reformed villain
>A brooding Native American powerhouse

The diversity in All-New All-Different was spectacular and allowed the writers to explore all kinds of new ideas and stories.

>>92104862

He's also a tough as nails vietnam war vet and legit bad ass. Though he's still human and feels fear, he doesn't let it ruin him.

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>>92087520
Superman literally built a machine for raceswaps.

>>92105797
>introduced in issue 2, for goodness sake.

No he wasn't. Are you one of those people who jump into conversations and try to bluff their way into sounding like an expert?

He was introduced and got established as Tony's friend for years before he became Iron Man, but he wasn't introduced in the second issue.

>>92087520
>rhode jones
>arbitrary
how about I slap your shit?

>>92101665
THIS NIGGA GETS IT

>>92106399
Oh yeah, Vietnam is so far away these days I had forgotten.

>>92108868
Issue #118 in January of 1979.

Interesting, as I don't recall a Tony without a Rhodes, but in hind-sight I'm not sure I read a lot of those back issues from the 60's and 70's.

Also I have it in my head that Rhodes was maybe there when Tony first got blown up. Guess not.

>>92108868

"On a mission he was blasted out of the sky by enemy rockets, Rhodey managed to land in one piece and was attempting to get his craft airworthy when inventor Tony Stark, clad in his Iron Man Armor, happened to be passing by. Stark had just completed his original armor, had avenged his fellow prisoner Professor Yinsen, and was trying to make his way to the American defense perimeter. Attacked by enemies, Iron Man proved to Rhodey they were on the same side, and Rhodes allowed him to drain the helicopter's batteries to recharge his armor. The two then trekked through the jungle together, finally discovering a hidden enemy rocket base. Stealing an enemy helicopter, they destroyed the base, and flew to the nearest American encampment. Before leaving Afghanistan for the United States, Stark offered Rhodes a job as a pilot as soon as his military stint was over Rhodey initially declined."

I guessed they retcon'd him in?

>>92094670
so that's why it looks like 3d porn games

>>92090409
>>92104655
With Miles at least I can see how being a random person introduced after Peter's death and becoming Spider-Man could work. Peter's origin was a relatively anonymous one (even though it kind of wasn't in USM since a lot of his classmates saw him get bit), and the idea of a second Oz-powered spider being around is plausible given Osborn's obsessiveness.

Miles' motivation could also work, in that when he got his powers he was afraid of using them because by that point, superpowered people and mutants were very established and people were also going overboard in anti-mutant hysteria due to Ultimatum. So the idea of him not wanting to use his powers out of fear and then realizing he could've helped or even saved Peter Parker in that final battle, that also could work in contrast since Peter's first instinct on what to do with his powers was to get glory (basketball team) and money for his family (wrestling). And the idea of him having an evil uncle instead of a role model uncle can also be contrasted against Spider-Man.

The problem is that Bendis didn't do enough to differentiate Miles from Peter, partly because his pacing takes too long to develop anything, and partly because most of his characters start sounding the same. That panel of the villains having the same dialogue style in Infamous Iron Man is enough to make me think my decision to avoid his comics (at this time) was a good one.

In Riri's case at least he did try to establish her before making her the new Iron Man, but he barely did even the minimum for establishing her to the fans. What exactly is her motiviation established in the pages shown earlier? She's easily bored and is a thrillseeker? She wants glory? I assume Bendis eventually established her motivation after CW2 since I haven't gotten to her series yet. And...

>>92109083
>I guessed they retcon'd him in?

It was retconned in. The idea was that he was the guy who got Iron Man (and unknowingly got Tony Stark out, since at the time he didn't know Tony was Iron Man) in Vietnam.

>>92109663
...For another example there's the time when John Walker became Captain America.

He only showed up in five issues before Steve Rogers quit as Cap in protest, but in his first appearance we see his personality and motivations established. He's a glory-seeker (who commits very dubious means to get it, such as getting the Buckies to stage dangerous fights and threats to make Cap look bad) but also loyal to the government (which at that time was the Reagan administration). He's a young hotshot who thinks he's better than Cap. In some ways, he's what people who aren't familiar with Captain America think what Captain America is.

So when Walker became Captain America, a reader could think, "holy shit this could get fucked up fast." And the hook here is that John Walker is a guy who shouldn't be Captain America trying to be Captain America while being an interesting character in his own right.

>>92102854
How many of the complaints were from idiots that only started reading comics in the last five to ten years and didn't bother reading anything before? Cause I'd say there'd be a lot.

>>92087520
because without an excuse to have their jimmies rustled what else do middle class white people have in life?

>>92111745
A house, wife, 2-3 children, a dog, white picket fence that keeps terrorists off their lawn.

>>92087922
The best success stories are actually rebooting old characters with a lot of different users (people under the cowl) into a new character with different powers. The only 2 I can think of that don't suck dick are
>Blue Beetle
>Miss Marvel (Kamala)

>>92104655
>Oh he said it so it must be true. Cant have been to recapture the controversial magic of when he replaced Spiderman with a black teen.
>Actually the more I think about it, the more of a fucking shameless rehash I realise Riri was

He also claims in public interviews that he created miles for ideological reasons. He literally says he was crying in the aisles of a store when his daughter picked up a miles spiderman haloween mask.

>>92109663
I do wonder, how much of it is ideology, and how much of it is kayfabe with Bendis.. Either way, a complete rehash is right. Every single problem with Miles is the same and magnified in Riri.

>>92109083
>I guessed they retcon'd him in?
Yes. US wasn't in vietnam when Iron Man debuted.

>>92112199
>Yes. US wasn't in vietnam when Iron Man debuted.
I forget he started in '63, I always think '68 as that is when Iron Man #1 was released. (though he still got blown up in Vietnam, as even in '63 we were fucking off there).

The only other scenario I can think of comparable to Miles suddenly being introduced after Peter died was the Four Supermen in Reign of the Supermen. Two were established long before Superman's death however (Eradicator and Henshaw) and the other two (Steel and Kon-El) were actually new, but a part of that was there was a mystery going on about whether any of them were the real Superman.

Kon-El you get that he's different from Superman at the time he's first introduced because he's a reckless 90's teen. And of course the mystery is if he's a clone or possibly Superman resurrected.

In Steel's case they established his character and motivations right in the first issue. He worked making weapons for the military but was horrified when he saw that they got stolen and were used to kill innocents. He left the weapons manufacturing industry and became a construction worker, and at some point saved a fellow worker's life nearly at the cost of his own, but Superman saved him.

And so after Superman died, and John Henry Irons discovered the weapons he designed for the military were starting to be used in gang wars, he becomes Steel to honor Superman and to stop the people who've improperly used his tech. In some ways it's pretty similar to Iron Man, too. But the thing is, he's in a Superman comic and not an Iron Man one. That's what makes him contrast against Superman.

>>92090253
Sucks that JL and JLU never really expanded upon that.

>>92087728
We had the same exact types of complaints back then if you bother to read the letters pages. It's just easier for us to bitch with the power of the internet.

>>92113345
>We had the same exact types of complaints back then if you bother to read the letters pages.

Sure, sometimes. But as http://www.cbr.com/comic-legends-did-marvel-get-bomb-threats-when-rhodey-became-iron-man/ showed it was usually unmemorable. It's only in recent years that the internet allowed stupid people to get together along with people that want to start shit, and entertainment people who think going on the attack against fans in general is a good thing, so it all mixes up in a recipe of crazy.

>>92113662
That's where it being easier to bitch with the power of the internet comes in. Many of the more "problematic" writers are the ones that used to write fanfiction or were part of the proto /co/, cbr, etc communities. The way Marvel acts in response to criticism or anything negative is exactly how you'd expect some of the more annoying portions of any of these communities to act.

>>92102888
This is a /co/mblr whining thread, fuck off.

>>92087520
Because historically it wasn't tied to the most obnoxious liberal movement in recent memory

>>92113783
I think the problem is that Marvel just got worse about professionalism in the last 15 years.