Cartoons vs. Anime

>>91936890
Culture and talent.

>>91936890
It's better because they have higher budgets and greater creative talent pool to draw from. They're worse because there is very little variety with most cartoon falling under the usual slap-stick comedy formula. Anime has much more diverse content but suffers from poor animation and higher amount of crap.

Also, anime tent to have rigid continuity compared to cartoons so the greater emphasis on plot/characters makes for more memorable/entertaining works. That's based on preferences though.

>>91936890
Anime has so much more diversity in terms of shows it isn't even funny. There's stuff ranging from action/adventure to comedy to horror to pretty much anything. It's the biggest thing that Western animation is lacking right now. Everything basically needs to be a comedy and while many shows have other elements in them they are at their core trying to make you laugh. I honestly don't really think Western animation does anything objectively better than anime right now other than not working the animators to death.

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>>91937117
Whenever Western animation has tried to wean itself off comedy it's been a spectacular failure in Japan, like pic related.
Anime is just better at actual narrative, period.

Anime also has rushed production schedules. It's churned out so cheaply and quickly that the overall product isn't thought out from beginning to end, at least in most anime that come out while the manga is. This results in huge inconsistencies and damages the overall product by incentivizing anime to draw out scenes as much as possible in order to gain more time.
American cartoons on the other hand have higher quality but also higher barrier to entry. If a show is put in a bad slot, or won't sell merch, it's much more likely to get canceled regardless of its content and quality.

>>91937223
>American cartoons on the other hand have higher quality
Fucking shit, NO THEY DON'T.

>>91937014
>It's better because they have higher budgets and greater creative talent pool to draw from.

>higher budget
That doesn't mean shit when none of it goes towards actual animation.

> Greater creative talent pool to draw from
The biggest problem that American animation faces is that the generation unskilled to the older generation.

>>91937161
I don't understand. Both of those shows were relatively popular. Why is it a disaster just because they didn't do well in one market that wasn't even the intended one?

>>91937249
Higher production budgets, more frames per second animation, where is anime' quality advantage?

>>91937270
Because that's the market with the highest standards for animated series by far. If a show can't make it there despite the backing of international marketing muscle that American companies provide it probably means it sucks, compared to anime at least.

>>91937299
Nobody with a functioning brain wants to watch pretty pictures that do not MEAN anything, like the vast majority of Western animation. No budgeting for extra animation is going to change that at all.

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American animation can't do this.

>>91937318
Dude I like anime too, but let's not kid ourselves. Watching American cartoons and anime is like shifting through shit to find diamonds.

Also, by the logic that something accepted in Japan is the benchmark for how good a show is is nonsensical. I just means that the show appeals to Japanese sensibilities and tastes. By your logic RWBY is better than BTAS, and One piece is better than ATLA, which is false by every objective means of measuring hem.

They operate in slightly different cultural landscapes and try to accomplish different things. In the west animation is pretty crippled by the overwhelming mentality that animation as a medium is funny stuff for children, which influences audiences (who expect everything animated to be kid-friendly) to producers to writers to studio execs etc. - anyone wanting to write a serious psychological or drama thing will pitch it as live-action in order to be taken seriously. Meanwhile in Japan everyone is ready to accept that animation can be used to tell serious ambitious adult stories, which again affects everything all the way to the audience reception readiness.

However the Japanese shows tend to rely a lot on cliches, archetypes, set reaction expressions like the sweatdrop or the vertical purple lines of horror or the EEEEEEEHHHHHH? There's a lot of gorgeous stills with flapping mouths tier animation. There's also a lot of lazy zero effort moeblob pandering shows that focus more on fanservice than plot.

Of course that can be expected because of the huge volume of output, though. In general, Japan benefits a lot from the size and diversity of the potential market for animations they have.

However, in the west I'd say there's a bit more originality (a very rough generalization). Shows don't lean on the same character types or the same set ways to indicate emotions quite as much. Also there's a lot of potential muscle behind the industry, the big name studios can produce absolutely breathtaking things.

So, I don't know if it's clever to try to pull a which is better comparison because both have their different strengths and flaws.

Due to the west being currently still so heavily cramped by the cartoons are for kids mentality, Japan produces steadily more animation that's somewhat interesting for adults, a lot of crap but there are great pearls there too. The west has some fantastic stuff and a potential for greatness, if they'd drop the kiddie attitude.

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On the topic of anime, what's the sentiment in this board towards Panty and Stocking? The dub is hilariously vulgar.

Mobile suit Gundam Storyboards (1979)
https://youtu.be/1U-zGb_grmA

Steven Universe Storyboards (2016)
https://youtu.be/RbP39z7QGgc

American animation stopped being good in the 60s and the only instances where this trend has been bucked is when an American studio has outsourced to Korea or Japan.

>>91937344
So you're arguing anime has better writing? Pacing? Characterization? How are you judging quality? Which anime exactly are we using as a measuring stick?

>>91937447
I don't get what you're trying to say about those two videos.

>>91937249
>Fucking shit, NO THEY DON'T
Different anon but yes they do. The style just may be more simple, silly or childish, but the actual animation quality is higher. Anime can look gorgeous but the "animation" in some scenes is essentially panning across a still with one person's mouth or hair flapping a bit

>>91937299
That's only in the general sense.

Many anime have animation that blows western stuff out of the water.

>>91937447
Those are extreme examples. I could post storyboards for shin chan and the storyboards from gargoyles and the comparison would be the same, just biased the other way. I too however am frustrated with the current lack of good American action cartoons.

Japan makes a lot of really wonderful high-production prestige pieces, but when it comes to the average commercial shit they churn out, they dig themselves further and further each year into an ever-more-insulating cultural niche. Don't they ever get tired of making the same highschool-aged action drama with goofy romance and fantasy themes?

>>91936890
About 80% of good cartoons take heavy inspiration from anime. Face it, Japs are superior.

>>91937510
>The style just may be more simple, silly or childish, but the actual animation quality is higher.
I think what you're trying to say is that the quality of the animation is more consistent. Unless you have a one cour show being done by a highly talented studio, you're going to notice the QUALITY.

>>91937554
And Kate Upton styled bodies all over the place.

>>91937567
Remember when Disney was king and anime copied off of it?

>>91937483

Well you're clearly blind or an idiot.

A toy commercial made in 1979 for a certain-death time slot on a minimal budget not only has key frames that could stand alone as illustrations or easily be used to make a Manga also has fluid and nuanced final animation.

For contrast an American show that's hailed as a cultural sensation and is made to be a work of art that transcends social norms has key frames that look like they came from the back of my 10 year old self's maths exercise book and final animation that's extremely jerky and lacks composition.

>>91937511
I would love some examples. I could use something new to watch. I know that there are gems on each side of the (completely arbitrary) fence, I would just like to know what metric we are judging by, for the purposes of focused discussion.

>>91937447
>Mobile suit Gundam Storyboards (1979)
>Steven Universe Storyboards (2016)

>American animation stopped being good in the 60s
>argues this while using as japanese example from a star wars tier high effort show in the 70s
>us example from a basic network show 4 decades later

Look I like anime too but that sort of shit makes you look like your argument is so weak you have to resort to cherrypicking. If you're gonna compare the best the industry has ever amounted to, you should look at high effort western storyboards from the past decades too.

Also storyboard =|= the final animation

Objectively speaking, right now there's more variation of technique in anime. American shows have gotten really samey over the last 15 years.

>>91937633
I think they both got samey. There's always a trend that industries are gonna follow until there's a new one.

>>91937567
>About 80% of good cartoons take heavy inspiration from anime
Yes, and about 80%+ of anime heavily appropriates elements of western culture, religious themes, settings, attire, mythology, historical elements, legends, architechture, you name it

>>91937434
This guy gets it. ,an, I've Ben wanting to have a real discussion on this topic for a while now, but it usually gets bogged down by trolls on both sides.

I'm curious what thoughts you have on the pacing of each? I know each industry has various shows at different pacing levels, but my impression is that anime as a rule has more drawn out storytelling, at least in action shows. Do you think this gives them an advantage in the binge-watching field ?

>>91937447
>American animation stopped being good in the 60s
Which, not coincidentally, was when anime started to appear on the scene.
>>91937479
>So you're arguing anime has better writing? Pacing? Characterization? How are you judging quality? Which anime exactly are we using as a measuring stick?
Yes, yes, and yes! I'm judging quality by all of those and more, and not against any specific anime, but the average one - or perhaps anime of a comparable "tier" (e.g. Avatar vs. anime that is considered to be of very high quality).

>>91937614
MSG is certainly not the best the industry has ever amounted to and if you actually watched the videos you'd see the final animation is superior to you dick-tickler.

Also, feel free to share some high effort Western animation from the last decade.

Cartoons are more creative than anime. Most of the anime were based on manga and novels.

>>91937739
original (not "creative") != good

Are there any examples in the West of doing the 'high details but less frames' style that a lot of anime is done in?

Brad Neely's shorts are kind of an extreme example but China, IL through that style out the window.

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>>91937633
You know I have to imagine you're cherry-picking one side and not the other here. Because when I go to an anime streaming site and pick some random animes being made right now you see some quality, but you sure as hell don't see much variety. It's all the shame sharp-eyed, flat-shaded anime girl, every once in a while with something more detail and dynamic thrown in. Almost all of them use that same style of mixed 3D and heavily-filtered 2D CGI backgrounds.

If I pick some random western animations, you get some low budget things, but there's definitely a variation in technique.

>>91937692
That makes sense. I've got a relatively limited pool of anime to draw fm, so I was going by genre.
ATLA compared to FMAB for example.
A lot of what I know is from shonen anime, where the pacing is intentionally drawn out to give more time for manga chapters to come out. And while I love anime for the crazy worlds it creates I'm not a fan of the inconsistencies in writing that results from a super hectic production cycle. Hell, one of the bench,ark anime is Dragonball, and the writer forgot entire characters and the show made five minutes into like seven full length episodes. I know that is obviously an extreme example, but modern shonen do much the same thing, padding their time with overly long intros and unneeded flashbacks.

I guess I'm not super sure what qualifies as top tier anime. Best I've seen is FMAB which is good cause they redid it after the manga ended. Not all anime get that chance though.

>>91937614
>Star Wars tier

Are you mad or do you just know nothing about Gundam?

It was sponsored by a toy company to and was cut from a 50 episode run to a 40 episode run because originally no one cared. It's budget was either similar to most anime of the time or possibly less since the episode count was reduced when the sponsor pulled out.

Culturally? Yes, Star Wars. Budget wise? Certainly not.

And if anything, the fact a show from four *decades* later made by a bunch of Americans with tertiary education in art with all the technical progress that's been made since at their disposal looks worse just supports the point.

>>91936890
Very few western cartoons rise above anything beyond "cute show for children" due to the stigma that animation is for kids network comedy. There's a higher budget for most shows and the animation is smoother but when that all results in run of the mill childrens comedies staged like a sitcom in 3/4 view its hard to give a shit about the technical aspects. It's not interesting and shows like Over the Garden Wall and Samurai Jack that break away from the norm are a dime a dozen.

Anime also has a high ration of shit compared to quality but the way its cours work allows for a much greater output of shows, and because Japan lacks America's stigma towards animation there's an incredible amount of variety. The diversity of technique has only gotten better the past couple of years too now that we're past the awkward adolescence of digital animation, with studios like KyoAni and Madhouse putting out breathtaking shows.

The west could very easily compete with Japan, and newer show runners influenced by eastern media like Steven Universe, Star & The Forces of Evil and Gravity Falls are trying their damnedest to bring those elements into the current framework of western cartoons, but it's still a work in progress.

>>91937814
The original Star Wars is what I think he means. Something anomalous and reaching beyond its o ignitable budget. Something that was way better than it had any right to be.

>>91937856
>and newer show runners influenced by eastern media like Steven Universe, Star & The Forces of Evil and Gravity Falls are trying their damnedest to bring those elements into the current framework of western cartoons

He my beef when people say newer shows are influenced by the east. Because all it ever amounts to is meaningless fan services. Don't don't see any influence beyond that; look at a comedy anime and how they frame a scene compared to a modern cartoon. How many characters from modern cartoons would fit into a anime archetype. Modern cartoons haven't adapted any form of animation techniques that you typically see in anime? No, all it ever is some reference to DBZ/sailor moon or what ever the creators grew up with.

>>91938084
I'm talking more from a writing and tonal standpoint than from a production one. The greater emphasis on action sequences, overarching narratives, lore-heavy plots and settings, etc.

Not that Japan invented having an actual setting and story with weight and consequences, no idiot would make that claim, but it's clear where their inspiration to include those elements is coming from when looking at the shows incorporating them. Avatar very much wants to be a western shonen anime and doesn't disguise that intent at all, while Steven Universe borrows very liberally from shows like Revolutionary Girl Utena and Sailor Moon to the point entire episodes and characters are homages to them.

>>91937690
>I'm curious what thoughts you have on the pacing of each? I know each industry has various shows at different pacing levels, but my impression is that anime as a rule has more drawn out storytelling, at least in action shows. Do you think this gives them an advantage in the binge-watching field ?

Yeah, I think it's a symptom of the mentality that animation is a storytelling medium just like live-action that enables them to write more continuous overarching storylines with heavy cumulative plot.

Western shows seem to be stuck on this episodic format where the episodes have to be written with detached reruns in mind. I don't know, but assume it's dictated by the networks and the creators might love to write more solidly progressing plots - if such shows would get greenlit by the networks. Star vs. is an interesting example, it was very loud and random and episodic in the beginning - that would be the part they used to get the show greenlit - but has started to move towards overarching plot as soon as they got "established", the tone changed quite a bit from what they pitched (I think).

In general anime seems to have more cohesive, progressing, drawn out plots, even in the silly or cute shows. I do prefer stories like that myself and for bingeing it's of course nicer to have a story that works like a novel, a movie - or a western live-action, where events progress and the intensity rises towards the end.

In general I think it's a huge shame that cartoons and comics carry such a heavy CHILDREN'S ENTERTAINMENT stigma in the states. Breaking through from it just through looking at the better stuff Japan produces won't work because execs trend to be morons (remember the animation Oscar judge quotes) who won't believe "foreign shit" has anything to give, but the young guard af creators who've grown up watching anime might slowly shift it, in combo with the successes of Frozen etc showing that there is serious adult money to be made with animation

>>91937223
I never got why they adapt a manga so fast even when manga doesnt have alot chapters

>>91938540
It's basically meant to be an advertisement for the manga.

>>91938540
Its better to promote a manga while its still fresh.

>>91938521
To continue- I mean, in Japan the situation seems to be reversed from the west in the sense that in my (limited) understanding, a lot of the live-action dramas they produce are pretty shit. So the creative muscle is actually in the animation field, it's where you go to make the fantastic, thoughtful movies - whereas in the west ALL the innovative high-effort stuff is live action.

Imagine if stuff like Westworld, Breaking Bad, Firefly, Stranger Things, West Wing or House of Cards or the Sopranos or Aliens or Star Wars or Black Mirror or Arrested Development or Blade Runner or Jurassic Park or GoT or whatever was combined with Disney's best animation efforts, or even close.

But there's a huge divide - anyone wanting to do serious stuff does it in live action, a huge chunk of the effort eggs are in the live action basket.

I'm not sure, but how is the live action sci-fi scene in Japan, for example? In animation they obv absolutely mop the floor with the west, though wall-e was pretty great.

The Last Airbender is pretty much the only western show that can even begin to compete with the best anime, but the west usually doesn't even try to produce shows that can.

I don't understand it myself. It seems like the west would excel at making narrative-driven cartoons but they simply don't do it. Some chalk it up to animation traditionally being comedic and episodic so that casuals can follow any episode they happen to catch on TV, but I don't really think that explains why the west hasn't started to move toward anime-like cartoons in recent years.

Or maybe with Gravity Falls, Stephen Universe, Adventure Time, etc. you can argue that the west is very slowly starting to a tiny tiny bit? I don't know.

>>91937419
Well, kinda?
In a sense he's write.
How much BTAS fanart or interest will you see in Japan? Very little, but you'll find RWBY is loved as hell there just because it appeals.

>One piece is better than ATLA
Walking on eggshells here.

>>91937814
> a show from four *decades* later made by a bunch of Americans with tertiary education in art with all the technical progress that's been made since at their disposal looks worse
I'm curious, do the generic show Japanese storyboards made four decades later than the gundam example, made with all the technical progress that's been made since at the animators' disposal, look a lot better than the gundam ones? They should, right?

I haven't seen a lot of japanese storyboards at all. What do they look like for a generic middle -budget show made in the last year or two?

>>91938649
Man have you even seen the output of seasonal anime these days? It's saturated with shit geared towards children and teenagers. Most anime content seems to be geared to these demographics.

>>91938663
> It seems like the west would excel at making narrative-driven cartoons but they simply don't do it.
Personally I'm sure it's because a lot of the business side execs holding the purse strings want to do things like they've always been done before and don't believe ambitious stuff will sell because the kids won't like it, they like funny stuff, we'll lose viewers, it hasn't been done before which means it's unthinkable.

There's a system in place, and they want to make things that fit it.

>>91938702
> It's saturated with shit geared towards children and teenagers. Most anime content seems to be geared to these demographics

Well a lot of western scifi is geared towards a young-ish audience too, but you're right.

It's just that despite the flood of silly fanservice shows there's still more variety and some pearls in the mud, but yeah it's frustrating

>>91937808
Anime is that way because it's a lot more streamlined, it's the only way they can make over a 100+ series every season and keep an insane output the west never really could.
Sure you get your crazy anime styles and specialty novel studios but those are the exception usually.

>>91938749
>Well a lot of western scifi is geared towards a young-ish audience too
Star Wars? That's not sci-fi. Recent sci fi films like Arrival, Ex Machina, Interstellar were for a older audience. Then there's TV shows you mentioned like Black Mirror and Westworld as well.

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>>91936890

I like both but American cartoons definitely have better animation. I assume anime is so low on frames because they have to spend all that money on voice actors.

>>91936890
I don't know, but at least Naruto didn't get cucked by a pastry.

Anime are all about still frames and efficiency with budget. American cartoons take a lot of money and time to produce, mostly because of motion. Motion is EVERYTHING in american cartoons.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3hxg7i_the-ren-and-stimpy-show-s2-e07-sven-hoek_fun
go to 15:20, you'll see what I mean

>>91938913
But he did get cucked by a psychopath who got away with everything.

>>91938934
>Wanting to touch Sakura
>Having Sakura as your waifu
You need to go back

>>91938982
back to the past

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>>91936890
Japanese cartoons are edgy as shit and casually depict rape among other nasty shit for laughs.

Offensive as fuck.

>>91939018
name ten anime where rape is played for laughs

>>91938997
Samurai Jack.

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>>91937318
>japanese animation market has the highest standards

lol

>>91937014
>anime has less budget than cartoons?
bullshit, you're telling me adventure time has a higher budget than boruto?

>>91939018
Instant character development

>>91936890
Because America is a better country.

>>91939097

Yes.
Japanese animators tend to work for much less than American ones.

A single good quality animator in the U.S. makes between 60,000-72,000 dollars a years unless they live in the boondocks.

An animator of the same quality in Japan makes about 10,000 dollars a year.

Japanese animators who work well over 40 hours a week, every week of the year make less money than a highschool dropout who works part-time hours at Walgreens.

>>91937587
>sword art online
>guilty crown
>FLCL
>BORUTO
>Fate Zero and Fate Stay Night: UBW
> Death Note

Then when in counts to non cgi animated movies:
>your name
>Garden of words

Now tell me this superior western shows that beat anime in animation?

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>>91936890
What unironically has better fight/action scenes, Adventure Time or Naruto?

>>91938702
Teens always been most of anime audience in japan

>>91939086
Well it is good fap material and i like girls

>another cancerous bait thread
You should all kill yourselves.

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>cartoons vs anime
This shit is more stupid than Goku versus Superman.
Don't tell me you faggots SERIOUSLY compare Love Live to the Amazing World of Gumball or Attack on Titan to Avatar. There are the ups and downs of both western and eastern cartoons. Every Naruto and AT will have it's Bebop and Arnold. Every Rick and Mortey and Dragon Maid to Rocko's and Gurren Lagann. Unless you are one of those faggots who spew "moe calarts weebshit sameface" or whatever.

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>>91937384

American animation, throughout history, has had more variation than Japanese animation. You might have your examples but just look at the stylistic trends that developed in American animation over the last few decades. Anime has largely retained most of the same traits.

When someone tries to make a call to "cartoons" they usually just reference Looney Toons or something classic; something that is completely foreign to how cartoons are today. But if someone tries to make a stereotype of anime, that stereotype applies to almost all generations of anime except the earliest shows.

That's because Japanese animation is and was always a business. People like to think it's the opposite. Western animation approaches cartoons as a product and eastern animation approaches it as a work of love. But showrunners in the west have way more power. Steven Universe is one hundred percent a Rebecca Sugar show. Samurai Jack is one hundred percent a Genndy show. But consider how /a/ attributes their show quality. It's to animation studios, not the showrunners. The quality is all in how much money was spent. Little Witch Academia the show, with its much lower budget, is significantly worse than Little Witch Academia the movie; even though it is made by the same people.

This actually leads to a lot of anime being better quality or at least more towards the middle of "it's alright" compared to the west's vastly different cartoons. Because studios have group input and need the show to be financially appealing while in the west it's all on the showrunner to make a good show.

>>91939757
/thread

>>91939216
Naruto goes into "too many moving parts to bother drawing shadows" mode for maybe 5 minutes every 30 episodes.

>>91939147
>>91939097
>Boruto
>Not even using good anime examples
How fucking surface level can you get?

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>>91939147
>>sword art online
>>BORUTO
>even remotely good.

>>91936890
It's the same shit.

>>91939216
avatar the last airbender and the legend of korra (the fight animation was one of the only good things in that shit show)

>>91936890
I guess there may be more animation, but that's meaningless by itself. The voices are lip-synced, but that's minor. Aside from those, I can't think of any aspects that would make American animation better. It's just comprehensively not as good as anime.

>>91937299
>where is anime' quality advantage?
Character design, animation, background art, cinematography, effects, sound design, music... everything.

>>91937434
>However the Japanese shows tend to rely a lot on cliches, archetypes, set reaction expressions like the sweatdrop or the vertical purple lines of horror or the EEEEEEEHHHHHH?
There are cliches and conventions everywhere, it's just that people have become completely blind to them unless they are in anime. "Trope" nowadays is practically an anime exclusive term.

>There's also a lot of lazy zero effort moeblob pandering shows that focus more on fanservice than plot.
Those shows don't exist.

>So, I don't know if it's clever to try to pull a which is better comparison because both have their different strengths and flaws.
American animation, as stated above, has basically no advantages over anime.

>>91937510
More frames does not equal better animation.

>>91937554
Funny how America is never accused of being insular by doing American things. Japan is always expected to do things the American way, otherwise they're being insular/inbred/isolationist.


>>91937808
>It's all the shame sharp-eyed, flat-shaded anime girl
There's a lot of variance in character design, but there's also a vague general style common to most anime. And why shouldn't there be?

>Almost all of them use that same style of mixed 3D and heavily-filtered 2D CGI backgrounds.
As opposed to what? Also, the backgrounds aren't necessarily 3D rendered or even digitally created.

>>91938682
>I haven't seen a lot of japanese storyboards at all. What do they look like for a generic middle -budget show made in the last year or two?
You can browse storyboards here:
https://sakugabooru.com/post?tags=storyboard+-western

Their level of detail depends on the storyboarder, but generally they are not very detailed and it's up to the animator to come up with a detailed plan (the layout). A mediocre show might have good storyboarders working on it, but they will be limited by what the production team is capable of doing.

>>91938702
Most shows are late night ones i.e. not for children, and I have never seen any evidence that the Japanese make any real distinction between teenagers and adults. That seems to be just a Western neurosis/convinient bogeyman.

>>91938876
More frames does not mean more quality, and quality is not determined by just budget.

Anime voice actors make jack shit compared to American ones. It's American productions where actors cost an arm and a leg, or at they they eventually will.

>>91939018
Rape is extremely rare in anime. Are you sure you are not confusing it with Western live action?

>>91939136
But it's not American animators who make American shows. It's Korean animators who make them. I've not found any data on how much they're paid, but I can't imagine they're much more expensive than Japanese ones.

The average salary for a key animator in Japan is $25K a year.

>>91939851
>American animation, throughout history, has had more variation than Japanese animation.
This is absolutely delusional. It's the complete opposite of reality.

>That's because Japanese animation is and was always a business.
Nobody's in it to get rich, because they won't. Even directors and producers make middle class money. The level of artistic freedom and risk-taking in the anime industry is much higher than in America. You are again saying something that is the complete opposite of reality.

>But showrunners in the west have way more power.
They do not.

>But consider how /a/ attributes their show quality. It's to animation studios, not the showrunners.
It has recently started getting pointed out that this is wrong, because in reality studios are in most cases less important than the individuals, even irrelevant. Many creators and artists are freelancers or at some point move to a different studio.

Even so, people often talk about individuals. Individual creators and artists are much more prominent and talked about in anime than they are in American animation, so yet again you are reversing reality. This is especially true for movies; almost nobody would be able to name any of the directors behind Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks movies, not even a mega hit like Frozen. Even fewer would be able to say something meaningful about those directors and their work. This isn't the case with anime movie directors.

>The quality is all in how much money was spent.
It's mostly in who is working on the show.

>Little Witch Academia the show, with its much lower budget, is significantly worse than Little Witch Academia the movie; even though it is made by the same people.
That's always the case with OVAs/movies vs. TV. It's also true for live action.

>>91939987
They couldn't be more different.

If people were being objective and had a decent understanding of both American animation and anime, they wouldn't even bother having these threads. It's obvious that the latter is so far beyond the former that there's no point in even talking about it, at least not for the purpose of discerning which is better. You never see people talk about whether the Japanese movie industry is better than the American movie industry, because everyone knows it isn't, and even then the gap between them is smaller than the gap between American animation and anime. But these threads do keep appearing and there are always these completely delusional assessments claiming the superiority of American animation or that they're different but equal.

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>>91939772
And Gumball was hotter

>>91937419
>One piece is better than ATLA, which is false by every objective means of measuring hem.
Except the former is.

>>91940249
>but there's also a vague general style common to most anime. And why shouldn't there be?

because that's boring and low effort
sure, i guess the story works even if the characters are always the same stilted, flat humanoids in static painted environments, but it shows a lack of effort or unique artistic vision

>>91941599
I said it's a vague general style. You can look at any anime character and be able to tell it's an anime character. That doesn't mean there isn't variation. Character design also doesn't start and end with drawing the face, contrary to what most Westerners seem to think.

>even if the characters are always the same stilted, flat humanoids in static painted environments
How are they stilted and flat, and why should the backgrounds not be painted? Why does painting backgrounds show a lack of effort or artistic vision?

Backgrounds in anime very often are not still, at least not these days. There are leaves/petals, snow, rain, water, clouds, cars, pedestrians, and blinking lights. Then there's shots where the camera moves and the environment is animated with it.

>>91937808
You're cherry picking.

>>91941599
This sounds pretentious. Not everything has to be a "2 deep 4 you" story to be good.

Are there /a/niggers ITT seriously trying to argue anime has better animation quality than American cartoons?

Do they know what animation is?

>>91942840
Do you? Animation quality is not determined by how many frames of animation there are.

>>91943001
Yes it is.

Putting up a slide show and calling it an animation is objectively bad animation. A Disney film like Tarzan has objectively good animation. Get your alternative facts bullshit out of here.

>>91943171
The following also affect animation quality: character design, shading, on/off model, realism, complexity, camera work. By your standards, a shoddily animated stick figure is better than Akira if it runs at 24 FPS.

Pretending that anime animation is a slideshow is a strawman.

>>91942840
>Are there /a/niggers ITT seriously trying to argue anime has better animation quality than American cartoons
"which is better" threads invariably draw in the intense weeaboos who are convinced muh anime is far superior, in every possible way, to anything the west has ever produced. The animation quality is better, though animation quality or frames doesn't actually mean anything and pretty stills are just as good as animated stuff, pandering fanservice moeblobs or archetypes or such don't exist and are irrelevant anyway, and so forth.

It's kinda funny

>>91943385
It is superior. In the real world where America isn't #1 at everything just because it's America.

>pandering fanservice moeblobs or archetypes or such don't exist and are irrelevant anyway
Pandering and moeblobs don't exist, and fanservice is not the correct term. Archetypes exist, but they also exist in Western media, except nobody ever thinks that's a problem.

What's kinda funny is that someone is a weeaboo if he thinks Japan is better than America or the West at anything, or even if he holds any kind of positive view about anything Japanese, yet not even the most balls-to-the-wall crazy Western ultra-nationalism so much as raises an eyebrow.

>>91943275
>Pretending that anime animation is a slideshow is a strawman
Different anon but you can't seriously be trying to argue here that a shitload of anime wouldn't have stills with flapping mouths or intense scene "slo mo" shots that are essentially a still being panned across or zoomed into with mayve some action lines on top or shit.

It's a well known phenomenon that anime skips effort in some scenes and has invented these various shit animation techniques, so that they can then put more effort in the moments where they don't want the animation to suck balls. Nonetheless the animation quality is absolute shit in many scenes. There are also some shows that are essentially slightly animated stills.You're deluding yourself if you try to deny this

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>>91943275
>The following also affect animation quality: character design, shading, on/off model, realism, complexity, camera work.

You're putting way too much stock into a still frame.


>By your standards, a shoddily animated stick figure is better than Akira if it runs at 24 FPS.

Yes if we're going by animation quality alone.

>>91943385
>The animation quality is better, though animation quality or frames doesn't actually mean anything and pretty stills are just as good as animated stuff
>animation quality or frames doesn't actually mean anything
>pretty stills are just as good
Hear that everyone. Animation doesn't even have to be animated.

>>91943531
The fact that an anime has stills with flapping mouths does not mean that the entire anime or the vast majority of it is comprised of stills with flapping mouths.

>It's a well known phenomenon that anime skips effort in some scenes and has invented these various shit animation techniques, so that they can then put more effort in the moments where they don't want the animation to suck balls. Nonetheless the animation quality is absolute shit in many scenes.
The various techniques anime uses to cut down on the amount of animation required do not by themselves equate to shit animation. They are techniques and can produce good or bad results.

It's probably the case that American shows have more animation in them, but they are just making different sacrifices for the sake of maximizing motion. The character designs are dead simple, there's no shading, the animation is basic, the camera work is basic. It's all very fast and easy to animate. Just because there's more of it doesn't mean it's good. If anime productions kept everything the same but regressed to the visual standards of American shows, there would be no shortage of motion.

>>91943620
>You're putting way too much stock into a still frame.
I was very clearly talking about animation, not still images.

>Yes if we're going by animation quality alone.
Animation quality, as already explained, is not dictated by the number of frames.

>>91943683
It doesn't always have to be.

Hey fapbait anon. Dragon Maid is still shit.

>>91943725
You're STILL going on about this? How long has it been now? We've reached levels of meltdown that shouldn't even be possible.

>>91943517
Ohh boy someone got assblasted because anons are dissing their beloved animes.
"In the real world", lmao. I'm not American, fyi
>Pandering and moeblobs don't exist
Okay I'm bring trolled here, right? Well played anon you really had me fooled

>Archetypes exist, but they also exist in Western media, except nobody ever thinks that's a problem.
They don't exist in a capacity that's anywhere near to how prominent and rigid they are in Japan. Like there's specific hairstyles or laughs or such for specific archetypes, it's on a whole different level.

>even if he holds any kind of positive view about anything Japanese
Nah, but it's this hysterical inability to admit anime has any flaws that makes you a weeaboo. Liking or preferring anime is fine, but once you pass into the "anime does nothing wrong, there are no flaws they don't exist they're strawmen, anime is better in every single conceivable way, archetypes or shit animation doesn't exist" tier delusion it's weeaboo-ku, population +1

One thing I've noticed is that the Japanese tend to play with non-human characters less for some reason. When they do, they just put cat ears on humans or make anime girls with ship parts.

I mean, I guess there's nothing wrong with it, but I wonder why they're so resistant to try going all the way with it.I guess part of the reason is fanservice (you can't do it unless your character is a humanoid girl), but still.

>>91943683
>Hear that everyone. Animation doesn't even have to be animated.
Yeah but joking aside I'm sure this is how a lot of the rabid anime defenders think.

When they think "animation quality", they're not thinking about the animation they're thinking "how does it look, does it look beautiful?" So by this metric, a pretty background still with some nicely done landscape, lovely lighting effects, minimal animation, vs a cartoonish bright caricaturish from a western cartoon with more and better done animation but a childish, simple look - well, the first one looks more awesome, it looks "better", so thus the animation quality is better

>>91943791
>Ohh boy someone got assblasted because anons are dissing their beloved animes.
Not an argument.

>"In the real world", lmao. I'm not American, fyi
Then I guess you're an ameriboo.

>Okay I'm bring trolled here, right? Well played anon you really had me fooled
Everyone always has this response. Then it always inevitably turns out they can't prove the existence of either.

>They don't exist in a capacity that's anywhere near to how prominent and rigid they are in Japan.
People take archetypes, cliches and tropes in Western media so much for granted now that they barely even recognize their existence. "Trope" has become almost synonymous with anime, even though it never had anything in particular to do with it.

>Like there's specific hairstyles or laughs or such for specific archetypes, it's on a whole different level.
Hair colors also have meanings in the West, just not as much since hair color doesn't factor into Western media to the extent that it does into anime etc. There are also various cliches associated with villain characters for example. Such as an evil cackle.

>Nah, but it's this hysterical inability to admit anime has any flaws that makes you a weeaboo
I never said it has no flaws.

>Liking or preferring anime is fine, but once you pass into the "anime does nothing wrong, there are no flaws they don't exist they're strawmen, anime is better in every single conceivable way, archetypes or shit animation doesn't exist" tier delusion it's weeaboo-ku, population +1
I called it a strawman because it was one, anime simply is better than American animation, I never said archetypes don't exist, and I never said there isn't any bad animation in anime.

>>91943909
Only a minority of anime revolves around "fanservice," so that is not the reason. I think it's actually stranger that animal characters factor so heavily into American animation. Human characters are the norm everywhere else.

>>91943929
>When they think "animation quality", they're not thinking about the animation they're thinking "how does it look, does it look beautiful?"
No, we are thinking of the animation. That's why we have the sakuga community and you don't.

But we are also thinking of the overall visual presentation, just as film critics would for live action cinema. Anime is not just animation, it's also filmmaking.

>>91943964
That's fair. I think I was thinking more about how they tend to do less experimentation with proportions. In western cartoons humans can have a lot of different exaggerated or normal shapes. In anime everyone tends to be an anatomically correct human, usually in good shape. Not saying that's bad, but it detracts from the variety element.

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Japanese 2D animation pushed the boundaries far higher, in my opinion.

>>91944056
The character design in anime revolves around fashion and style, which is a deeper well to draw from than cartoon caricature (there are only so many ways you can draw a body in a meaningful way). But is that way because anime isn't based on cartoons like American animation is, it's based on reality. Mostly.

I like both and I don't know much about animating but I feel like in a lot of anime the characters don't feel as expressive as in america animation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVWtTPa7wLM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2JLC6-mUk

>>91937567
actually the chinese are superior, the japs rotoscope off their kung fu movies

>>91944802
You're talking about one scene in Cowboy Bebop, and it wasn't rotoscoped. Rotoscoping is very rare in anime.

>>91937441
It's well liked on /co/. Moot even said it's honorary /co/.

>>91944850
nope. an anime rotoscoped the game of death and return of the dragon

>>91939086
That one image alone BTFOs 99% of "cartoons" for art quality. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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>People keep saying anime has worse animation
>but if you actually watch any of the newer stuff, or heck, even the old stuff, the animation usually blows cartoons out of the water

And it isn't just all wasted on the intros either. It's consistently great expressive and fluid animation that just shortcuts during talking scenes, and even then they give characters something to do.

That fucking dragon maid show is legitimately beautiful compared to steven universe. One punch man, mob psycho 100, my hero academia, space dandy, I mean... fuck, it's so fucking good, little witch academia... and then you go back and watch stuff like cowboy bebop and gundam.

Are you people wilfully blind? The animation in anime is gorgeous and the lip flapping thing hasn't been true since the 80s.

I love cartoons and animation in general, but like... we only ever got better more varied animation than disney once animators admitted they were sick of the same shit. The only way forward is to fucking admit that american cartoons are held behind compared to the rest of the world. Europe regularly kicks our ass too, so don't think this is all weebshit.

Fucking christ, there's no way you can day you like animation and then say with a straight face that modern american tv animation is comparable to anime. Maybe, back when things were in an awkward digital transition, but these days? No, their shows are better animated and have better illustrations.

>>91944961
Even if some anime somewhere rotoscoped a scene from a kung fu movie, so what?

>>91945035
if you follow the reply chain, you will see the fruits of my brevity

>>91945082
So your claim seriously is that the Chinese are the best at animation because allegedly some anime once rotoscoped a live action Chinese movie?

>>91945121
real life is better animated than animation, which the anime has "referenced" so yeah

>>91945213
You're either stupid or deranged.

>>91940043
>(the fight animation was one of the only good things in that shit show)
No, it wasn't, Korra's animation was terrible.
Read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/35d38e/atla_comparing_atlas_animation_studios_gallery_in/cr3catj/

>>91945236
you have resorted to name calling, you are unable to refute this. dont be so bitter. you are less ignorant now. you are welcome

For the U.S., the action cartoon is critically endangered species
For Japan, the seinen genre is threatened by an invasive species: moe.

>>91945352
Go away tripfag, nobody cares.

>>91945352
moe will continue to exist until people stop watching it

>>91945348
You have resorted to being stupid or deranged.

>>91945352
Moe can exist in any anime. It's a subjective response. Also, seinen is not a genre.

>>91945352
>the seinen genre
It's a demographic.

>>91936890
Anime, from our perspective, also has the added buffer effect of distance. We only learn about or see anime that is already pre-filtered through Japanese culture.

You think anyone in Japan knows what Schnookums & Meat Funny Cartoon Show was? No! because it never made it over there. in exactly that same way, bad anime almost never makes it over here.

>>91945591
Nearly every anime is simulcast now, and nearly every anime that isn't gets fansubbed. What's left after that is irrelevant stuff.

>>91937249
Yes... they do.

more consistent animation, more ongoing animation, more background and incidental animation...

Japan uses it's animation budget differently from the west. Where a Shounen anime might sink 95% of it's budget into three minutes of any given episode, and have complex, elaborate combat scene: a western animation will spend it's budget across the whole of the project more evenly, resulting in higher quality of incidental scenes (such as two characters talking to one another) where we focus on the faces and reactions of the characters as opposed to, say, a distant establishing shot while we just hear their voices.

>>91945426
why are you mad for being wrong?
did i hurt your feelings?

>>91945687
Once again, more animation does not mean better animation.

>Where a Shounen anime might sink 95% of it's budget into three minutes of any given episode
These shounen anime that you people are always going on about make up less than one percent of anime and are different from the 12-26 episode seasons that are now the norm. And you're exaggerating anyway.

>>91945736
I'm not wrong. You are.

>>91945591
>because it never made it over there. in exactly that same way, bad anime almost never makes it over here.
Duel Masters made it here.

>>91939097
Yes, where have you been.

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>>91945015
>mob psycho 100
>No one but you and me remembers it exist

It hurts

That said, the lip flaping doesnt happen that much, but there's a lot of instances where they just focus on a still image while talking to save money, but even then its not as annoying as people make it out to be, and this is as far as i go in "Defending anime" but most the time where lip flaping or still images are involve nothing much is really happening beyond some characters talking casually to eachother, its usually a moment where 50 goofy faces per second are not necesary to pass on a scene that's meant to be just people talking casually

Also, and im just going to say it, making a goofy face every other frame isn't stoke of genius either, there's some merit to it sure, but if that all it takes then fucking mega babies should be in the top 3 best animated shows of all time

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Japanese have some good animators.

>>91945759
so you are merely a retard pretending to be smart. never mind then.

>>91946081
You are, again, either stupid or deranged.

>>91945759
>And you're exaggerating anyway.
Well yes, duh. hyperbole is the only metric we have in an opinion-based anonymous internet messageboard discussion.

>>91946097
Considering how long he's been arguing with you, both are valid assessments.

>>91941599
Then what anime should look like?

>>91942840
Do you really think /co/ knows about animation? Atleast they know that they dont know about animation at all so they dont even try discuss anything like this but /co/ does competely opposite

>>91944228
>But is that way because anime isn't based on cartoons like American animation is, it's based on reality. Mostly.
I've actually never thought of it this way, but yeah.

>>91944875
Did moot actually come here? Because i dont remember anything like that

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>it's a famicom bait thread

>>91936890
apples and oranges

>>91937318
>draw out scenes as much as possible in order to gain more time.
but these two shows have made their respective companies much more money than the average anime ever makes

>>91945920
I feel like drinking some 7up right about now

>>91949493
Money isn't everything, anon, especially in art. The starving artist is a stereotype for a reason, after all.

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>>91936890
Anime is more detailed, but at the same time it has terrible delivery schedules, so they have to rush everything so they can deliver, that they end up sacrificing some quality, it also suffers form shit writting because of pic related

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>>91945920
None of them work on shit shows like jojo's

>>91949696
But show can have good writing even with cute girls

>>91950190
Can you name at least 3 shows?

>>91936890
Oh boy a literal East vs West thread

>>91936890
Unsurprisingly this more prevalent in live action media than cartoons, but the West has a weird infatuation with the concept of "being taken seriously".

>>91950422
There's something wrong with that?

>>91950656
yes
It's always the same back and forth every single time, and nothing new ever gets brought forth to the table.
Even with regards to new shows, they just get used in the same old arguments we've heard millions of times.

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>>91949696
>Western animation is more detailed, but at the same time it has terrible delivery schedules, so they have to rush everything so they can deliver, that they end up sacrificing some quality, it also suffers from shit writing because of pic related
FTFY

>>91950694
Doesn't this describe /co/ too?

all modern ameritrash cartoons are tumblr-pandering flash junk.

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>>91937384
Keep crying fujofag. 10s Matsu can off themselves