Who was in the right?

>>91932528
Steven, considering you can take out a Gem without killing them.

>>91932552
and they'll just come back even angrier

Bismuth's weapon wasn't very good. Well, for anything other than shattering Pink Diamond, anyway.

>It's just a spike to crack gems

It's not even that good as a weapon. A gun would do the same thing while being much more practical.

>>91932567

...unless you bubble them, with takes less than a second.

>>91932630
If you have a species this aggressive, constantly threatening your species, you wipe them out. All of them.

>>91932528
Bismuth's anger was righteous, but her plan would have most likley caused more harm than good.

>>91932528
Neither were right.

>>91932528

Morally speaking? Steven. You can't resort to the most barbaric approach of your enemies, make it into a machine of convenience, and strap it on the wrist of every soldier. It stops being a Civil war of gems vs gems and just turns it into gems vs daleks.

Tactically speaking? Steven. You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot at shattering them, they'd need to be in extremely close range AND you probably wouldn't be able to use another weapon meaning you're completely fucked if the person fighting you has more than three brain cells.

If anything, it's just a glorified executioners weapon.

Bismuth was deranged with suppressed rage, PTSD and a sense of betrayal. Gem wars go on for stupid amounts of time, the conditions are probably trench like, gems don't understand sleeping unless anyone tells it to them, and shell shock would probably be ignored just like everything else in the Gem Caste. It'd be the hell of WW1 amplified over and over and over again, and it'd go on for eternity.

And Bismuth was about to make it so much worse.

>>91932699
thread over, time to go home

>>91932630
and you bubble them, you keep bubbling more and more gems. Now you have to find space to store em all and have soldiers guarding them 24/7. You wont win a gem war doing that.

>>91932682
that's stupid
enemies are to be fought, not annihilated

>>91932682
When you have a species that can be permanently decommissioned with no more effort than it takes to incapacitate them and can be repurposed as an energy source for crazy magic artifacts, you don't kill them out of spite.

>>91932735
no bubbled gem has ever escaped captivity by themeselves, the crystal gems are not shown guarding their bubbled gems, implying that once bubbled minimum security is required

>>91932735
It worked perfectly fine for both sides. If anything they're useful as bait and hostages, like prisoners of war, or as power sources for magical devices. It's a waste to just destroy them.

>>91932528
>>>/trash/

>>91932528
Bismuth. She did nothing wrong. Steven was the one that fucked up for not even trying to listen to her points and just assuming Rose was good point blank. Rose was an evil beastiality practicing terrorist.

>>91932794
we know it's you yellow diamond

Steven was right to oppose her, but wrong to then simply leave her bubbled instead of bringing her back with the other gems present so they could actually try talking it out.

>>91932794
Bismuth was clearly not mentally stable. Pretty much the second steven questioned what she was doing she tried to murder him in cold blood

Like, she didn't even try to argue her point. She just tried to kill him

>>91932552
you can stop a person without killing them but you don't see use filling every guns with rubber bullets in war do you

>>91932776
crystal gems don't guard their gems because there's no risk an enemy or rogue gem getting into the temple and freeing them


>>91932778
I don't think I've ever seen gems used to power anything just lapis attached to a mirror. As for using them as bait yes that might work but only in small amounts you cant just bubble entire armies of gems

>>91932699
you're right the specific weapon she used made no sense but the general idea of shattering them instead of bubbling them makes perfect sense

Is Bismuth ever coming back?

>>91932528
Dreadlock North Korea did nothing wrong

You have to consider the fact just how FAST some gems can reanimate after getting poofed. Remember when amethyst reformed almost immediately after getting poofed in Reformed? Its not that hard to imagine that soldiers would be trained to properly regenerate as fast as possible after getting poofed. THE LAST thing you want happening on the battlefield is you taking out one gem, getting immediately jumped by another and before you're able to get rid of them the gem you took out from before already regenerated back

>>91932528
Bismuth was right but only in the sense that if you're at war there's nothing morally wrong with killing your opponents

tactically speaking as well in general if you're in active combat with your opponent it makes much more sense to kill than capture

>>91933178
Did you forget how their forms are unstable when they're quickly regenerated?

>>91933282
if youre referring to how amethyst regenerated quickly and it didnt work out, id point out that any soldier would be better trained and more experienced in regeneration than she was

>>91932699
>Morally speaking? Steven
you think it's morally wrong for them to kill members of the enemy army in a war of defense?

>You can't resort to the most barbaric approach
you think killing someone while you're at war with them is more barbaric than locking them in a cell for thousands of years?

>You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot
yes the weapon was stupid but are you honestly against the idea of killing people while you are at war

>>91933282
That was just amethyst. Homeworld and even rose's rebellion could train soldiers to regenerate properly in time. Also even if they get something during the regen process wrong that's still another gem to worry about who could do you harm

>>91933282
>their forms are unstable
they could still be a threat and that's a risk no real soldier would ever take

>>91932984
Not as easily as you can a gem though. And besides, over 99.9999% of bullets fired in any war are filler; even then, it's not that simple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons
>>91932528
Edgymcmetaledge: her weapon is complete and absolute bollocks; Jasper's destabilizer or whatever has as much range and shoots much faster, you could build an army of people with handheld jackhammers and they all could be shot down by a single person with a destabilizer, and that's not counting the arsenal of the whole gem armada.

>>91933456
>>91933427

There's no reason to assume it's exclusive to Amethyst or that it can be controlled. It can be simply what happens when a gem is worked out too hard.

>>91932870
That wasn't because she was mentally unstable, it was because the breaking point thing was a test to determine whether or not Steven actually was a separate being from Rose Quartz. When Steven rejected it, she took it as proof that Rose was just bullshitting the other crystal gems about dying and went ballistic.

It wasn't that unreasonable from her point of view.

>>91933282
Amethyst's regenerations didn't start getting really unstable until the third or fourth one in rapid succession. She regenerated pretty quickly the last time she was poofed and the only deformity was a bad eye.

>>91933445
The thing was that every single Crystal Gem sided with Homeworld originally, they only defected because Rose made them aware of how shitty the Diamonds and other Elites were treating them. It wasn't an overnight shift of loyalties, Rose's army grew slowly over time as more and more gems found themselves agreeing with her.

By choosing Bismuth's method not only does Homeworld have even more reasons to be hostile towards the Crystal Gems, but plenty of low-caste gems are denied of their chance to defect and fight for their freedom.

>>91933667
Last time, she regenerated after a few minutes. It's better compared to Reformed when she only took a few seconds.

>>91933566
There's also no reason to assume that it CAN'T be controlled. And let's just say that even if or whatever reason that it can't be controlled its better to have the gem be shattered than to have a quartz reform behind you with arms for legs, jump on you and poof or even shatter you out of spite

>>91932528
Neither of them were wrong. No one philosophy is right, and none of them ever will be

>>91933445
>you think it's morally wrong for them to kill members of the enemy army in a war of defense?
That depends entirely on your reasons behind the war, but for the most part, yes.
>you think killing someone while you're at war with them is more barbaric than locking them in a cell for thousands of years?
Considering gems don't have mortal minds that degenerate into complete psychosis over short periods of time of isolation and even just continued existence, yes.
>yes the weapon was stupid but are you honestly against the idea of killing people while you are at war
If all conflict in human history had been solved with war, and if all wars in human history had been violent we would have gone extinct way before the invention of the nuclear bombs. War is a mean to an end, it is not the only one and it's doesn't always involve killing people.

>>91933565
>Not as easily as you can a gem though
i don't really care how difficult it is what matters to me is the fact that they are at war when you're at war if given the opportunity you capture your opponent but you are in no way wrong for killing them in any other situation

the idea that Steven basically put Bismuth(his ally) in a coma because she was trying to kill people that were actively trying to kill her
is at the very least off-putting

>>91932699
>You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot at shattering them, they'd need to be in extremely close range AND you probably wouldn't be able to use another weapon meaning you're completely fucked if the person fighting you has more than three brain cells.

Agreed, taking advantage of the resonant frequency of a Gem's gemstone and use that to shatter them from a safe distance is MUCH safer and MORE cost-effective option.

>>91933706
Homeworld wouldn't have hated them any more than they already did regardless of whether they use bismuth method. Jasper (and I'm sure other homeworld veterans too) was already shattering gems left and right. All homeworld what have done was seen how efficient Bismuth weapon was (forget about the retarded design for a bit) and tried to develop their own variant

>>91933706
so if you're fighting a revolution you shouldn't kill members of enemy army because there's a chance they might defect? this isn't something that could be successfully applied to real-life any history book to tell you this

>>91932528
I remember reading somewhere that Rose deciding to not shatter enemy gems kept the war from escalating even more, that as bad as whatever it was that corrupted all of those gems was they could have done something even worse. And none of them knew about the cluster at the time, Garnet/Sapphire didn't even know enough to use as a reference in future vision.

But it was all based on conjecture since we don't really know that much about Homeworld.

>>91933746
If it was controllable, Pearl would have been able to regenerate in a much shorter time frame perfectly.

She didn't, and it's not.

>>91933980
Pearl has OCD. Taking weeks to regenerate like that isn't the norm. Ever other gem we've seen was able to do it pretty quick.

File: 1199977_large.jpg (29KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 640x480px

>>91932749
>that's stupid
enemies are to be fought, not annihilated

HELLO M'LaaaaaAAAAAADY! I'm glad that chivalry is not dead in the world. The universe needs more men like you. *tips fedora*

Why! CHIVARLY at it's best is when it's dead. Shot in it's gullible back thinking that people follow, *GASP* THE RRRRRRRRUUUUUUUULES!!?!!?!? This world!!!! is amazing at being so downright c-c-c-c-COLD!! HOW DARE HE SWINDLE ME OUT OF A GAME! A GAME THAT I HOLD DEAR TO. A GAME; THAT I CALL LIFE!

GOOD DAY SIR!!!

>>91932528
Bismuth. Her weapon was wildly impractical. Yes, it permanently kills the enemy, but it takes a long ass time and the target has to remain still for it. Considering that bubbling an enemy gem takes them out of the fight without needless slaughter and is also a lot faster than Bismuth's weapon, there's really no reason to use it other than pure spite.

>>91933980
pearl chose to stay in there that long.... just as amethyst chose to come out almost immediately

Bismuth was right

the homeworld gems would never understand, they would keep coming back to destroy earth to avenge Pink D. You can't talk yourself out of this.

>>91933282
>>91933427
>>91933456
>>91933513
>>91933667
Don't forget Amethyst apparently has things physically wrong with her. So her having issues with regenerating multiple times in rapid succession does not mean every other gem, even other amethysts, would.

>>91934070
Yes, but if it was an ability that could be controlled, Pearl would have learned it during the war.

She wouldn't have needed that long to regenerate.

>>91934087
I'm sure there's a middle ground, but those warriors wouldn't be at peak power.

>>91933565
Bismuth designed and created the Breaking point well before the destabilizer came about and after being freed had no idea about the device.

That's kind of like shit talking the inventor of the crossbow now because fully automatic firearms exist despite the fact they did not when the crossbow was invented.

>>91933867
>That depends entirely on your reasons behind the war
the reasons are pretty clear they wish to defend their right to live how they choose and to defend the earth

>War is a mean to an end, it is not the only one and it's doesn't always involve killing people
you're right war is a means to an end but you can't have a war without killing there's no such thing as a non violent war

if we're applying both of their philosophies on war to real life then Bismuth is clearly in the right no one has ever won a war without killing their opponents or presenting a credible threat that they will kill them

but if we're just talking about just the show then stephen is in the right because the writers will eventually make him right

File: 1491024746217.jpg (45KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 400x400px

Since this thread is already shitposting central, might as well leave this here instead of making another thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVJhtbh3xmU

Its good, its basically everything that has been said 9 thousand times already but with a lot less "REEEEE" to speak of

>>91934120
There hasn't really been any proof either way. But Garnet expressing her disapproval of Amethyst's rushed regenerations implies that it's an unfavorable action that applies to all gems, not a correlation to her defectiveness.

File: tumblr_od9qcfzsff1trs6v2o2_r2_1280.png (434KB, 1280x1388px) Image search: [Google]

434KB, 1280x1388px

>>91932528
well bismuth wasnt.
i mean, creating a weapon to insta kill your enemies, IN A WAR, yes, its something you should use. but bismuth made it look like she wanted to kill the whole gem race who wherent crystal gems.thats fucked up.
in a war, yeah you have to kill, but in ww2 a soldier saying he will kill every last german is one who shouldnt carry a gun.

people forget, in present times, the war is over. yeah the diamonds are still out there, but unless theres other species of life, they are being racist asshole in the other side of the galaxy and they arent bothering the CGS. It makes sense why bismuth would feel like this considering she missed 5000 years in a whim on her point of view, but it doesnt make it right.

The Breaking Point was a good idea in the war. Killing all homeworld wasnt.

Also i love how /co/ bashes this show for being "nothing but waifu shit" and yet we have these discussions

File: The will to kill!.png (2MB, 1440x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1440x1080px

>>91932528
Bismuth

>>91934387
>but in ww2 a soldier saying he will kill every last german is one who shouldnt carry a gun.

No, he's the one you put on the front line to act as a meat shield.

>>91934298
Or maybe Garnet expressed her disapproval for that because given the situation there was no reason for amethyst to rush her regen the first time and to keep doing it over and over again messing herself up even more in the process?

>>91934176
Pearl probably uses being poofed as a chance to relax and clear her mind. It's not like anything was going on that would require she regenerate instantly.

File: soviet self propelled nuke.jpg (326KB, 1921x1864px) Image search: [Google]

326KB, 1921x1864px

>>91932528
Bismuth
Peace through Superior Firepower

>>91934296
>guy making the video:
hey i know you like the show but lets admit it has flaws.
>comments
FUCK THIS SHITTY SHOW IT SUCKS BURN CARTOON NETWORK

>>91933882
>you are in no way wrong for killing them in any other situation
Yes you are.
>is at the very least off-putting
Still better than killing

>>91932735
>Now you have to find space to store em all
If only we had some kind of specifically tuned doorway that could teleport us somewhere, or rooms that customly only open to specific combinations of us...Damn, if only.

>>91934460
>>91934298
why does it matter if they can train it or not canonically some gems have been shown to be able to regenerate really fast if you were to apply this to real life that would be more than enough reason to decide to shatter them rather than bubble them in the heat of battle

>>91934460
Doesn't disprove my point.

>>91933896
There was a moral highground to keep. Rose was a huge softie, and it's implied she regretted shattering Pink Diamond, so I don't think it'd be in-character for her to accept a weapon that defeats the ideal she was trying to fight for. She didn't choose a specific number for the size of her army, throughout the whole war it's extremely likely that she kept the doors open to whoever tried to defect from Homeworld.

>>91933940
Gems aren't humans.

>>91932528
that gun is stupid was anyway

killing the gem's body normally and then shattering the gem it yields sounds much more reasonable then directly attacking the gem while the body is still there

>>91934661
What gems besides Amethyst?

>>91934640
Yes let us not shatter any gems, bubble them all and store thousands, tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of them somewhere

>>91934607
>Yes you are
how give me an example where you meet a member of an opposing army and there's no chance to capture them so you killed him instead and you are in the wrong

File: tfw their souls are being weighted down by gravity.jpg (51KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 1024x768px

>>91932528
Quite frankly, Bismuth was right. You have to understand it from her perspective, the CG were rebels, they were against whole empire, and most likely the punishment for traitor rebels like all off them was to be shattered, execution. And you wake up to find out that you lost the war terribly. She's right to believe they've been backed into a corner and that standards have been thrown out of the window, especially after the Diamonds song-nuked the planet and turned everyone into monsters, which is arguably worse than straight up killing.
She's right to think killing the members of a dogmatic empire is the only chance they have, she's probably had her own experiences.
But you won't get a straight answer of most of us here. A great deal of people won't pick up a weapon and try to take another life in order to defend their loved ones and ideals, they can tell you they would, but it takes a real unique kind of courage. We can only fully understand what we've experienced, after all, so it is much harder to take Bismuth's side in the whole debacle.

>>91934686
>Gems aren't humans.
what's the point of even having this conversation if you've decided that gems are so fundamentally different from humans that we can't apply thousands of years of well-tested tactics and strategies to them

>>91934721
my entire point is that for actual soldier it would only take one confirm instance of quick regeneration to make it so they would shatter their enemies instead of bubbling them because it would only take one time for them to get shattered

>>91934888
>A great deal of people won't pick up a weapon and try to take another life in order to defend their loved ones and ideals

do you really believe this are you european or canadian? serious question because where i live (southern america) this seems completely unthinkable.
the general moral consensus in the south is that if someone threatens your life or the life of your loved ones then you're completely justified in killing them the overwhelming majority of people including me would feel no regret or guilt about it either.

is this an uncommon belief? do people from other countries or other parts of america feel that they don't have a right to defend themselves with lethal force if necessary

>>91934242
>there's no such thing as a non violent war
History proves you wrong; low violent wars, wars without casualties and wars without actual combat have occurred in history, but I'll give it to you that is really hard to come across information on them, no one talks about the fish that jumped on the boat, after all; sometimes they'll even deny such fish exists, most of the times said fish wont even be acknowledged. And besides, the questioning was about what course of action is more ethical, wars are by definition unethical, even non-violent ones.
>>91934218
>well before the destabilizer came about
Since I don't watch the show that much I wont argue with you there, but it does sounds a bit like mere speculation; actually, isn't there a scene were bishmuth actually poofs a gem out with just her fists?
Also, you can indeed blame the inventor of the crossbow if he's aware a long time has passed and doesn't even try to get acknowledged with newer technology, yet, tries to push his own invention further. And specially so if he's trying to use crossbows to hunt chickens, given how much a crossbow takes to load, aim and shoot and how even some more primitive technologies available are much more time efficient for such a task

>>91934868
You went into a war, that's already morally wrong enough, and you're making up an impossible scenario, ergo, in a 1v1 scenario, it is always possible to incapacitate enemies without killing them outright, this also ignores all the other methods and technologies that gems have available that humans do not and the very nature of their physical forms that even further the impossibility of your idea. So I'm not even going to amuse it with even more senseless speculation.

The problem a lot of people seem to be having here is that GEMS ARE NOT HUMANS. They never have been and never will be.

Humans are crafty motherfuckers. The amount of effort and resources to neutralize, restrain, and maintain just a single human prisoner indefinitely makes the option unfavorable in many situations. Really, there's no way to truly neutralize a human without killing them because we're flesh and blood matter. And the more prisoners you put together, the greater their total ability becomes unless you incur a 'crabs in a bucket' scenario on them.

Gems have no need for most things humans need. They can quickly be neutralized safely and stored cheaply while not experiencing the passage of time. Lapis in the mirror and Pearl in her episode both seemed to comprehend the passage of time while inside their gems, but Peridot and Centipeedle who were bubbled didn't. That makes bubbling effectively cryogenically freezing gems in time, with none of the costs to maintain besides ensuring the bubble is not popped.

Add in that the Breaking Point is both incredibly inefficient and generally stupid to use (since a ranged weapon would be much more effective at any task), and you have a device that only has direct applications as a cruel execution device. And this is also in a world where captured gems can be used to power machines, making execution wasteful.

Anyone arguing differently is either playing devil's advocate or is so incredibly autistic I question the safety of their interest in fantasy fiction.

>>91935253
>the general moral consensus in the south is that if someone threatens your life or the life of your loved ones then you're completely justified in killing them
Is that why South America is such a murder ridden shithole? I know that, I'm Mexican and I'm no stranger to news about people killing each other over squabbles.
I know what I'm saying when I made that kind of statement. Unfortunately, those with courage can be also psychopaths, but your average joe will be hesitant about such actions. The idea of taking lives isn't one what's easily digested.

File: 1493326365558.png (210KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

210KB, 600x600px

>>91934847
Yeah, it's easy and works. Fuck off Woolie.

>>91932528

Bismuth.

File: 1457318222192.png (106KB, 540x297px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 540x297px

>>91934387
>The Breaking Point was a good idea in the war
Except you can just bubble them with no consequence. And you can let them free under guard and convince them of their own worth turning them to love the Earth that freed them. But no that'd never work...

>>91935284
>History proves you wrong
okay so they have been a handful of non-violent war that still does not invalidate the point that that if you get into a war and decide that you're not going to kill your opponent despite the fact that they're trying to kill you is stupid unrealistic and would not work especially if you possessive a force thousands of times smaller than your enemies

>>91935499
>We'll just restraining them and reeducate them :D
that sounds mighty sinister

>>91935499
To be fair Peridot is a technician not a fighter, and a crippled Era 2 one rather than a full size normal one to boot. I don't think any other gem is lower in terms of direct combat ability.

Even pearls, made to be tall and pretty and hold stuff and sing songs for their masters, are agile, quick, and utterly devoted to said masters.

>>91935371
>You went into a war, that's already morally wrong enough
even if it's a war of defense that you didn't start and that if you don't fight in you'll be killed

>So I'm not even going to amuse it with even more senseless speculation.
so you can't think of a situation

File: 1485438773818.jpg (62KB, 994x691px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 994x691px

>>91935544
It is anon, that's the point. You can see Rose's methods from multiple points.

File: 1428401912147.gif (2MB, 220x220px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 220x220px

>>91934710
I think thats whats implied though with the weapon especially since it takes awhile to ready a charge. You get them while they are in gem form.

>>91935040
That doesn't suggest they regenerated quickly. Any gem that poofed them could've just moved on to the next non-poofed gem instead of wasting time trying to shatter them.

>>91935517
>they have been a handful of non-violent war that still does not invalidate the point
Eh, yeah, it does.
>decide that you're not going to kill your opponent despite the fact that they're trying to kill you is stupid unrealistic
Eh, no, it isn't, as I said, that depends on the motives behind the war; but encountering an enemy in a war and not commuting murder aren't mutually exclusive events, there are actually many ways in which it can go down and not all of them involve you dying; but all of them do require a bit of personal integrity and emotional maturity, traits that soldiers commonly lack in great quantity and for obvious reasons.
>>91935581
No one said anything about not fighting, but about not killing.
>so you can't think of a situation
The problem here is that no matter how hard I try I can no sooner explain to you why your scenario is impossible sooner than I could convincingly explain why 1+1 does not equal any random number different from 2 that you are convinced it is. As I wrote above, emotional maturity.

>>91935438
So, then: everything about the Gem War is totally without analogy to human warfare and human experience.

Why is it treated that way by the show? Gems aren't humans, and their conflict contains no lessons for us.

>>91935728
Let me rephrase that; you need more than one person to start a war. And the crystal gems still developed a new ideology that contradicts the one of the homeworld and went into war with them, so yeah, even though the action wasn't the only option if was probably the most practical at the moment, but that still doesn't make it an ethical decision.

>>91935441
>Is that why South America is such a murder ridden shithole?
but its not south america doesn't even have the highest crime rate in america. there are some european countries with higher violent crime rates

>I'm Mexican
do you live in mexico because i've been to mexico and i find it hard to believe that anyone who still lives in mexico could find anything but the roughest parts of america to be anything close to a murder ridden shithole

alos when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa

>>91935284
>but it does sounds a bit like mere speculation

The breaking point was designed and made back when the war was in full swing. I don't have the math for figuring out when that was on hand but it's safe to assume that was thousands of years ago. Since the CG apparently had no idea what the destabilizer was until it just poofed Garnet like she wasn't there I would assume it didn't exist back during the war when the breaking point was made. At least not in a mass produced form.

>isn't there a scene were bishmuth actually poofs a gem out with just her fists?

I am not sure, been a while since I saw her episode. But I would imagine being able to do that without a weapon is something most gems don't have the raw power to do, hence the need for gems like Bismuth that make weapons, and if it was in a flash back we don't know the state of the gem she poofed.

File: Silence.jpg (30KB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 320x240px

>>91935876
>when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa

>>91935876
>when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa

just terrible

>>91935918
But anyway, the point is that regardless of the conditions in which the events happened, we see a gem getting puffed by a raw show of strength and another puffed with a single relatively serious wound on the torso, meaning that you only need to injure a gems body with not even enough force to shatter their gems to indefinitely incapacitate them, ergo, a crossbow or even a sling from the stone age and the like are already much better alternatives to the breaking point.

>>91935918
That scene was of Lapis getting poofed by a Bismuth. We don't know if it was OUR Bismuth, but she roughly had the same proportions as our Bismuth so probably was just as strong.

>>91935728
>Eh, yeah, it does.
my point was never that there has never been a non violent war that was something i bring up to support my point which was that the idea of going to war with the mindset of not killing the enemy is stupid and would never work when engaging the enemy force not a 1v1 but another group of people all trying to kill you and your fellow soldiers

>I said, that depends on the motives behind the war
the reasons for the crystal gems war is a very clear they are fighting for their right to live outside of a oppressive system and to defend the earth

>but encountering an enemy in a war and not commuting murder aren't mutually exclusive events
yes but encountering the enemy and not attempting to kill them or having them not attempt to kill you is basically unheard of in a real war

>require a bit of personal integrity and emotional maturity traits that soldiers commonly lack
this is insulting it shows to me that you've never been in a situation where you had to seriously worried about another person trying to kill you

>I can no sooner explain to you why your scenario is impossible
have you ever been in a situation where someone is trying to kill you with a deadly weapon in situations like this half the times running is not an option and disarming and restraining someone is not as easy as they make it look in the movies in fact out of any of the options you have in that situation restraining them is the most dangerous

>>91932528
Not Smith, Crazy fucker just wanted to kill everyone.

>>91933445
>you think it's morally wrong for them to kill members of the enemy army in a war of defense?
In this case it's more like executing POW's

File: 1194873_orig.png (96KB, 333x250px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 333x250px

Was Aang in the right when he did this?
Or were the writers in the wrong with this asspull.
I've always wondered whether being offered a peaceful deux ex invalidates everything Aang trained towards and had to prepare himself for.

>>91936671
it was the writers but they could have had Aang not kill him and it still be well written they should have gotten rid of energy bending and just put him in a prison specifically made for fire benders

>>91935544
That's pretty much how the ideology of colonies and conquering works. Look at every colony/conquered civ in the last 100 years, when Japan captured Korea they tried to force down Nippon as master race so hard hoping their children would suck them off.

>>91932528

Steven believed that shattering gems was (and still is) the wrong thing to do. He always assumed his infinite well of empathy would somehow make Homeworld gems—like Peridot, for example—see that Earth deserved to be left alone. But as Bismuth proved, the effect of Steven's empathy has its limits, and Steven had to poof Bismuth so he could save himself. If Steven were faced with a Homeworld gem who could not be swayed by Steven in the slightest, and the only way to stop them from hurting him was shattering that gem, his self-preservation instincts might override his principles.

Bismuth was sort of the reverse situation: She had no empathy for Homeworld, and she believed The Breaking Point was the only way to deal with the Homeworld gems. But Steven proved that even Homeworld gems can be reached and can be brought around; Peridot eventually became a Crystal Gem, after all. Bismuth's way of thinking was rooted in survival, but it was a narrow mindset where destruction was the only option. What could have happened if she had seen how a Homeworld gem could be "defeated" without shattering them?

Whether one of them was "right" or "wrong" is a matter of perspective and situational ethics. But the show obviously wanted the audience to believe in Steven and his inherent goodness, so in the show's eyes, Steven was in the right.

>>91934408
God Bless Uso, if he and Steven switched places the Zanscare would have won, but god damn would Uso be cleaning beach city up and Uso gets a slightly less retarded Indian waifu out of the deal.

And he'd be mature enough that the Gems wouldn't feel they'd have to hide shit from him like with Steven

>>91936671
There was an easy way to write around this. Sozin's Comet grants Fire Benders amazing power, but excessive use of it is something Fire Benders bodies can't handle for a continued time.

So you have Aang and Ozai fight and Ozai abuses the power boost so much trying to match the Avatar that he burns himself up.

Christ the writers were fucking stupid with their Deus Ex Machina.

>>91932622
Plus gems would just start wearing armor.

>>91937478
Make a bigger spike.
Or a BEAM SPIKE

File: 1477468923988.jpg (60KB, 561x552px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 561x552px

>>91932528
This whole scenario is dumb.

How's a mere arm-mounted-jackhammer the ultimate weapon that'll lead the gems to victory?
What's the point of killing them when you can just as easily capture them?
Are we suppose to suspend our beliefs and just assume these thinks are THAT good?

The writers are retarded.

Its war. You win by killing the enemy

>>91937544
>What's the point of killing them when you can just as easily capture them

Capturing them means you have to protect a storage facility filled with them. If the storage facility is breached, then all your victories are basically wiped away.

>>91932528
It's harder to use the gem smasher thingo than it is to poof and bubble. Bismuth can't even argue that it's more economical, she's just a violent twat.

>>91937602

>It's harder to use the gem smasher thingo than it is to poof and bubble.

The Breaking Point assures a "real" victory over a temporary one, though. Like >>91937597 said, poof-and-bubble requires storage, and one breach means all those bubbled gems are loose.

>>91937428
>>91936806

Deus Ex Machina isn't bad if it's done with mysticism and done right.

The turtles were foreshadowed and "life" is a common meme for the 5th element.

Avatar didn't go full retard until Korra, which I hope one day will be treated like Highlander 2. and ignored by a later series.

>>91937772
>Foreshadowed

No. A single picture in a book isn't foreshadowing. Fuck off with that.

Steven

Bismuth may have started out with righteous intentions but when she turned traitor and tried to murder her commander and friend Rose, she became an enemy. You don't try to fucking kill your teammates because they don't let you use unnecessary cruelty. You don't, in a serious rebellion war situation, try to kill your teammates over disagreements, period.
She became a threat so Rose was in the right to put her in stasis: Considering the situation she'd have been right to shatter her.

Then she gets out, gets a second chance, acknowledges that - and turns right around and tries to straight up murder "Rose" AGAIN.

>>91937795

>A single picture in a book isn't foreshadowing.

Tell that to Rebecca Sugar.

>>91932552
Steven is clearly to the left. Bismuth is in the right. Unless you mean stage right.

>>91932528
Gross insubordination
Steven was right because Rose was the leader and made him the de facto leader.

Rose eliminated Bismuth because this would not only divide and weaken the remaining CG's but it would also ruin her plot where Steven becomes the ultimate ambassador and starts a class revolution because he can heal corruption and plant uppity ideas like individuality.
The ideology war doesn't work if HW can show you as unrepentant murderers.

>>91937096
>What could have happened if she had seen how a Homeworld gem could be "defeated" without shattering them?

Anon, they were fighting in Rose's rebellion. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM INCLUDING ROSE AND BISMUTH WAS A HOMEWORLD GEM at first before being persuaded to join the cause.

Sorry bout the caps but the situation calls for it.
It's important; convincing the "enemy" was the only way the CG got anyone into their ranks. Every and each CG - except Amethyst - was a Homeworld gem at first before deciding to join the rebellion and defect. It's not like they were citizens of warring countries.

>>91937597
No you have to protect one door that only you can open.

>>91935876
>alos when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa
What the fuck dude? What?

>>91932528
me for not having watched steven universe

>>91937941
true

>>91933445

>Dead
Gem shards aren't dead, though. They're still shown to be sentient even down to the fineness of powder turned into pigment (the evil gem painting from "Together Breakfast")

At least with bubbling a gem you're preventing them from experiencing literally eternity in pain and suffering.

>>91934073
Not encouraging genocide has really triggered you it seems.

>>91933940
Alright, let's look at this way.

>We're fighting for YOUR freedom!
>So we're gonna kill you

Not only was her method stupidly specific and basically incapable of in battle use, she wanted to use a method that would be killing the gems that they claimed they were fighting for -- the gems they were trying to free. That would be like an abolitionist going out and shooting slaves because hey, they work for the enemy.

In a war between countries for land, your reasoning is sound because there's really no moral base between the two enemies. They want to protect their own asses and that's about it, so they have nothing to gain from the enemy liking them in any way. But when the cause of the war is a moral difference, especially one regarding the treatment of a society or a people as whole, its flat out contradictory. They want to be the one who the society can stand behind morally but even people (or gems, whatever) who would agree with them wouldn't get behind a bunch of fuckers publicly executing them.

File: 1492808584019.jpg (45KB, 352x395px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 352x395px

>>91932528
>fighting in flipflops

First of all at face value the message was stupid because the weapon is visually clumsy and made no damn sense.

But OK fine, we're supposed to suspend our disbelieve (even though that's not really a good idea to do when you're asking people to think and form their own opinions), so let's just take claim as it's made. Suppose this weapon really DOES do a far more effective job at stopping the homeworld gems forces but at the moral cost of leaving far fewer survivors. Are we really supposed to believe Rose would object to this? After being told about the battlefields where "many gems were killed. People too"? After being told "there's no such thing as a good war" we're supposed to believe that Rose was waging a war in which one side objected to killing soldiers of the other side? Are we supposed to sympathize with such wishy-washy idiots?

So I guess I'm not supposed to think at all. I'm just supposed to accept "this weapon is bad. Steven hates it so it must be bad, OK?"

>>91932528
Not the retarded terrorist gorilla. There's a difference between fighting for freedom and murdering people because of prejudice, the only people that think Rainbow Harambe was in the right are tumblrtards.

>>91938029
they're called goppies, anon.

Without knowing the nature of the war, it's impossible to say. But the authors will contrive the universe so that it's wrong to use.

>>91932699
>If anything, it's just a glorified executioners weapon.
Which turns it into a death penalty question.

File: said the supporter of enhanced interrogation techniques.png (116KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 500x281px

Bismuth if you're a realist, Steven if you're an optimist

>>91937795
>Show treats you to an array of weird creatures
>None are really mysticaly besides the bending ones
>Characters in an ancient library come across a creature that seems mystical even in their setting

Come on anon.

File: Goat Eye Bird Eats Fruit.jpg (71KB, 611x468px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 611x468px

>>91938169
Proper foreshadowing requires 3-4 instances of something being hinted at.

Lazy half assed deus ex machina only need one

>>91933009
not just lapis, the sand gem too

Holy shit, some people in this thread are either edgy baiters or jsut retarded.
Bismuth hated the upper crust, the nobility. Her weapon would have been mostly used against the foot soldier scum. The part of the Empire they needed to keep their rebellion alive, because they were the only way for new recruits. Scare them away and you loose gurantied. That or homeworld jsut tells a Ruby to ftl in Earth when they get tired of it.

>>91933282
Everyone replying here also seem to forget HW gems don't need to express their individuality and look different each time they reform. They just go back to their default form which shouldn't take long to shape back to after getting poofed.

>>91939066
But they do express a degree of individuality, as shown with the Ruby Squad and Famethyst.

>>91939100
Yes but their current looks is they they formed after crawling out of their holes. After that there's no need for them to keep changing and expressing themselves in different looks.

>>91939141
Is how they formed*

>>91932528
Bismuth had the right idea back when Rose was still in charge, but her manner was always terrible. The Breaking Point is a fucking garbage weapon in actual combat and is impractical, its only use should have been for after battle execution.

Killing your enemies in a war is only natural when losing means death, and it was stupid of Rose to not consider it more, not that Bismuth immediately deciding to try and kill Rose was by any means the right choice either.

But with Steven? It was foolish, the Crystal Gems had no army anymore while Homeworld was still in power. Using the Breaking Point without a proper military to back up lethal force would have doomed the Earth, that, and Bismuth herself was pretty stupid.

>>91932528
>why doesn't Steven just kill the Diamonds?

>>91932855
Steven passed the buck to Garnet and Pearl. Unless you think he lied about his confrontation with Bismuth, it's really on them for giving up on her despite being comrades.

>>91933971
There's little reason to think that the Diamonds weren't always capable of singing the Song Of Corruption, that they wouldn't always flip the board when it started looking grim for them.

Unfortunately that and the resultant five thousand year ceasefire were not conveyed to Bismuth, who was under the impression the war hadn't changed in all that time, and all the Crystal Gems died the old fashioned way.

>>91934888
Except she was a part of the empire first. So was every last Crystal Gem because they consider the process of making new gems to be immoral. Murder is the worst option in the current situation because it'll remove the possibility of new gems being willing to defect.

>>91937096
It's literally impossible for shattering to be necessary. If you hit someone with enough force to shatter their gem, if you aim anywhere else you'll deal more than enough damage to dispel their physical form.

File: 1471142814810.jpg (34KB, 249x363px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 249x363px

SHATTER THE UPPER CRUSTS!

GEM WAR NOW!

>>91933940
>so if you're fighting a revolution you shouldn't kill members of enemy army because there's a chance they might defect
In a situation where you and every single person in your army was a member of "the enemy" until very recently, and every single one of you is only fighting on your side because they defected, yes.

It's not moral to start to act like people who are just like you were a while ago and belong still to the same group you used to belong to until a very short time ago suddenly are evil enemies who deserve death and you don't, when literally the only difference between you is that someone persuaded you to join the rebellion and you saw their point, whereas "the enemy" (your former compatriots) hasn't had the idea even introduced to them yet.

Retards are acting as if the cg and the hw would be like two different countries, but it's literally a case of a bunch or rebels who decide they want to secede and then Bismuth starts insisting all of her former neighbours, colleagues and compatriots should be exterminated simply because they haven't decided to join the new country yet. No-ones talked to them about it or tried to give them the choice either, but you know Bismuth made her choice to defect, and so anyone who hadn't made the same choice by that time is now a horrible enemy who deserves nothing but brutal death

File: mydiamond.png (552KB, 1082x1666px) Image search: [Google]

552KB, 1082x1666px

>>91935587
Jasper had a hard life

>>91935371
>it is always possible to incapacitate enemies without killing them outright

in reality its literally the exact opposite. It's impossible to capture an enemy that doesn't surrender.