I have a question for y'all. If the market is really rejecting

>>91232179
The same reason current Thor and Ms Marvel out perform their predecessors.

The market isn't rejecting minorities.

>>91232179
Green Lantern is a popular brand in comics even if they aren't the best sellers like they were under Johns.

>>91232179
Because they're characters and not mouth pieces.

>>91232397
Plus they got build up.

The market isn't rejecting minorities and the Marvel guy was just trying to cover his own ass.

The market generally rejects characters who are irrelevant or part of irrelevant brands. It doesn't matter what they look like.

They were introduced in a way that felt natural and they have character besides having race, gender, or sexual orientation being the cornerstone of their characters. Baz has trouble trusting and Jessica has a panic disorder. It feels more natural because those are real things real people deal with. Not characters in a political statement or a mouthpiece. Khamala started put like that but after cw2 she's become a mouthpiece and lost that human element in favor of serving an agenda

>>91232179
It's not rejecting minorities, the fans are rejecting shitty writing.

>>91232536
I came to this thread to post this.

>>91232179
The market it's rejecting minorities. It's rejecting minority fetishism. It's rejecting the removal of characters in order to swap them out with whatever minority is desired, it's rejecting parading around their minority status as something to be valued by the audience, and it's rejecting making "jokes" of long established characters in order to "make a point" in a ham-fisted way.

In other words, the market is rejecting shitty writing.

File: jessica-cruz-and-simon-baz.jpg (516KB, 563x570px) Image search: [Google]

516KB, 563x570px

The paneling is really good.

Ramos and Waid should be ashamed of themselves.

>>91232261
>The market isn't rejecting minorities.
fpbp

Marvel has no clue what they're doing. And water is wet. News at 11.

>>91232179
The market is rejecting shitty writing, not minorities. It just so happens all these shitty writers incorporate diversity in shitty ways. See: America.

>>91232179
>>91232346
This.

The "characters" aren't even the characters. The main character is the ring(s).

>>91232179
Wrote a solid book.

>>91232666
They both cute.

Marvel =/= DC

>>91232666
This is so much better than those dozens of Bendis-esque panels with the SAME EXACT HEAD in each panel with a different speech bubble. Variety really does wonders for a visual medium. And we're not just talking different mouth/eye/adding a limb variety. Actual redrawn and not copy-pasted-and-altered.

>>91232179
Because DC writes characters with a story and not badly researched mouth pieces

>>91232536
truth, but i think it goes a little deeper than that. Customers are aware these days when comics try to pull a fast one on the readers to make a buck and we're generally sick of it. Events and legacy characters that can't manifest any staying power because they didnt exist before they were shoehorned into an existing characters identity have turned a lot of readers of capes.

>>91232680
If the brand is all that matter, then they shouldn't be doing better than the two Captain America, the two Iron Man and the two Hulks.

The market isn't rejecting anything except hamfisted dogshit writing.

And considering the standard for cape comics, it's an impressive feat to actually perform below the bar so drastically that all of your books tank in sales.

>>91232666
I've not read this, but I'd say this page is probably the reason. They're actual characters and they are struggling with their own personal issues. It's not I'M STRONG BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN or I CAN DO THIS BECAUSE I'M BLACK or anything like that.

The characters have shit they need to deal with, they're dealing with their shit, and they might also have some shit relating to sex/race but that's just one facet of their character.

>>91232728
I'm pretty sure Bendis scripts into his work to reuse the panels for effect or something. I've seen artists who work with him do it the proper way when with other writers.

>>91232791
Prior to the MCU, those "brands" have never been high-profile/popular. They're better known as members of a whole (Avengers) than individually, and yes even Hulk.

In contrast, GL is GL. Over a half-dozen different iterations over the decades, and the property has been A-level post-Johns.

>>91232483
The only thing anyone really hates are Minorities, minorities are fine. Cardboard is cardboard. People like what is likable.

>>91232791
Have any of those Marvel heroes ever really sold that much though? I thought it was always the Spiderbooks and X-Men who made the money for Marvel. The fact that they're shitting on both franchises pretty much explains why they're failing now.

Nobody is rejecting minorities, that's just Marvel's "it's not our fault!!!' excuses.

Their line is an mess and not giving a lot of people what they want, entirely of their own doing.

Tanking the X-Men line.
Constant bad events interrupting books.
Absolutely baffling, self defeating creative choices with characters they want to push (or bury).
Legacy characters where they forgo an organic introduction.

There's probably even more than that. It has nothing to do with minorities, I'm down to around 5 Marvel books and they almost all vaguely fall under that 'minority' banner because the flagships are crap.

File: bendis.png (554KB, 647x772px) Image search: [Google]

554KB, 647x772px

>>91232896

>>91232913
Was hulk ever associated with readers long enough to be considered part of the avengers? To normies he was always the solo dude smashing shit and walking down a lonely road.

DC minority heroes fight super villains

Marvel minority heroes fight the patriarchy

File: 12144313_1504522409842876_2133506280_n.jpg (110KB, 640x800px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 640x800px

>>91233092
Why are you blaming a writer for an artist thing. It's a good thing when they actually draw it properly.

>>91233290
This is awful

>>91232680

I like that Jessica's ring's gaining a personality.

File: bendissssss.jpg (504KB, 638x1200px) Image search: [Google]

504KB, 638x1200px

>>91233290
Bendis uses this stupid drawn-out panels of nothing way too often. It's worse when they literally reuse the same panel but the panels changing doesn't take away from how much of a waste the page is anyways.

>>91233538
Nah, it's funny and good in context

>>91232179
Green lantern is just a title that anyone can be. Thor is an actual person who can't be raplaced by vag.

I haven't followed along with GL in forever. Is Jessica Cruz an actual Lantern now? Or is her ring still powered by a dormant interdimensional tentacle rape monster?

>>91233672
Not exactly. Whor is basically the only Marvel diversity title that sells. Thor fans clearly don't really care even if it's dumb. But that's the main point. There are Thor fans to buy a Thor book.

>>91233765
No, I think she got a proper ring at the end of JL before Rebirth. The current book starts out with her having a normal one at least.

>>91233765
She became a proper Green Lantern in the end of Darkseid War.

>>91233807
Thor sells, Ms Marvel sells, a bunch of other similar books safely maintain niche but above cancellation numbers. They serve their audience.

Marvel whining about people not wanting minorities or women is just pathetic deflection.

File: tony.jpg (177KB, 638x871px) Image search: [Google]

177KB, 638x871px

>>91233638
1000 hours in Sai

>>91233901
Does ms marvel actually sell? Sale charts have it at like 19k.

>>91233901
Ms. Marvel doesn't sell anymore. Seems like both in floppies and trades fans started to check out as it went along. Events can be blamed for the sudden drop in her floppies (CW2 pretty much killed it), but I don't know what you blame on the trades besides the novelty just not being exciting after 3 books or so. But the fact that she did have success for a while proves that it's not something about her being a minority that's the problem.

>>91233966
It was a solid 30k+ book until last summer.

>>91233966
It sells more digital than it does print

>>91233966
I used to buy it, but countless events and toxic writers made me drop it.

>>91233966

It's a strong digital seller and Civil War 2 blew it's feet off print wise

>>91233995
This "Ms Marvel is a juggernaut of digital sales" needs to die.

We don't data to back it up, and the data that we do have (Comixology) puts her in an average spot.

I remember when they said that Mockingbird was a huge digital seller too.

Women aren't minorities when will this meme die

>>91232179
Make interesting characters with actual arcs and having to overcome not only physical problems but also emotional ones.

Marvel is so afraid of showing their characters struggle and overcome problems. All their characters are so overpowered. Riri williams never fucking had a single emotional problem in her life. Her arc is, she's a genius, she's awesome, she's perfect.

Jessica Cruz for example, has to overcome her crippling anxiety and learn to be a hero and overcome her fear. It's an interesting character, that's why people like her.

>>91233995
That may have only been true for the very first couple of issues. The placement on the digital charts in weeks of release since then suggest that can't be true anymore. The average book does about 15% so maybe it has done like 30% at best, but if it was actually selling more in digital than in print it would be at the top of the digital charts when it gets released and that's definitely not true anymore.

>>91232179
Because that's a rad design on Baz

Can a character be a 'SJW mouthpiece" and still be written good?

>>91234190
Isn't agreed upon that green arrow is this?

File: Green_Lantern_Jade[1].jpg (73KB, 300x465px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 300x465px

horrible Jade replacement.

File: Green-Lantern-Green-Arrow-Social-Issues[1].jpg (524KB, 1107x1600px) Image search: [Google]

524KB, 1107x1600px

>>91234190
Yes, Denny O'Neil's Green Arrow.

>>91234232
They're not similar at all though? You can have more than one female GL.

>>91233992
Ms. Marvel started to nosedive when they ended the first run to start with a new #1. They killed it's fucking momentum for a one issue sales bump.

>>91233928
>>91233290
See it's fine when there's some change, even if it's just slight facial expression or hand position changes

>>91234190
Comic book characters have been avatars for social and/or political issues for decades. It's not new.

We're just in the middle of a surge of "if I don't agree with what they say it's bad writing" petulance.

File: 1459945438877.gif (721KB, 446x251px) Image search: [Google]

721KB, 446x251px

>>91234101
Women give birth to 60% of all minorities, they're underrepresented.

File: 1484728570187.jpg (2MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1988x3056px

Humphries' excessive use of internal narration works well enough with these two since the book is centered around two flawed novice green lanterns trying to deal with their insecurities while trying to be there for their partner.

So it makes sense for their internal screaming takes center stage over the action presented in the book.

>>91234311
>Haha! Yeah guys, as an anon I don't think we've given these guys/girls/xirs/xims/xos/Xx420BlazeitsXxx a chance!

>>>>>/tumblr/

>>91232261
>The same reason current Thor and Ms Marvel out perform their predecessors.
Current Thor isn't doing better than previous Thor runs anymore. The renumbering was a big blow to it somehow. It IS doing better than the current Odinson series though.

And Ms.Marvel doing better than Carol isn't a hard feat.

>>91234311
>We're just in the middle of a surge of "if I don't agree with what they say it's bad writing" petulance.

That kind of thing has also always existed. The problem is that these people were confined to letter columns and message boards. With the way social media is now and how fucking large it is, EVERYONE has a voice. Even the most crazy.

File: 1487149075510.jpg (2MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1988x3056px

>>91234372
So in short, it's not that Humphries suddenly had a magical transformation as a writer, it's just that they gave him a premise that's really compatible with him.

>>91234372
Is she a lesbian?

>>91234496
The editors have also been doing a great job in reigning in talent. Something huge must have happened with editorial because Vendetti went from a god fucking awful GL writer, to writing a damn great GLC.

File: Obsidian, Just Kidding.jpg (309KB, 660x1024px) Image search: [Google]

309KB, 660x1024px

>>91234232
I wonder how many Anons are still mad about her cucking Kyle.

And, am I wrong in assuming Obsidian is slightly more popular?

>>91234534
No, Sara is her sister.

>>91233992
I will add that it's possible there's a little retailer rebellion going on. You saw it at DC for DCYou after Convergence pissed them off enough to hurt even Batman a little. It doesn't excuse why so many of Marvel's books are shitty or anything, but it does partially explain why some solid selling titles have just tanked lately.

>>91234565
>am I wrong in assuming Obsidian is slightly more popular?

Yeah. Unless you were an Infinity Inc. or JSA fan, there's really no reason to like him.

>>91234257
Jade doesn't even work as a GL, she should be a JSA associate.

>>91234655
>she should be a JSA associate.

She has to exist for that to even happen.

>>91234666
You have a point, Satan.

>>91234538
Was lost army written by Vendetti?

>>91234698
Cullen Bunn.

I know this is bait but
The market isn't rejecting minorities, they are rejecting PC culture and forced diversity being shoved down their throats there is a huge difference

>>91232896

Some artists make it work. Some scripts make it work. But it's a stale joke now. The effect doesn't work lime it did years ago. And he over uses it because he's lazy.

>>91234280
I remember the Ms Marvel issue before the reset to #1 even had a THE END page. It even *read* like an actual ending!

Like what the fuck did they even expect to happen when you do that?

Spider-Gwen while having some writing problems was another darling character that they clubbed with a renumbering in almost exactly the same way.

>>91234538
Johns being involved in editing is the only difference I'm aware of.

http://www.cbr.com/christopher-priest-on-why-deathstroke-brought-him-back-to-comics-he-wasnt-black/
>Actually, it’s been a little easier than you might suspect. Alex and I worked up a plotline, and I started writing one-paragraph pitches for issue #1, issue #2, issue #3. I think we did eight or nine issues of, “This is what the story is going to be about.” Then we submitted all of that stuff to Geoff, and Geoff came in and said, “This is great, but this is not what we should lead with. We should lead with X, Y, Z.” He wasn’t feeding us specific plots, but goals, in terms of story. The stuff that we had come up with, we kind of shelved, started again, developed this other [story] in consultation with Geoff. Once we had the new front end up and running, we still had seven or eight issues of story that we had developed previously. So we adapted that stuff into the new front end, and frankly, it’s been pretty simple. We basically had eight or nine issues of “Deathstroke” already plotted, and now it’s just a matter of executing it.

Probably there's more stories about Johns editing.

>>91234538

He went from tearing down Johns stuff just to leave a mark to builiding things yp.

>>91234280
>They killed it's fucking momentum for a one issue sales bump.
Fucking this, these constant relaunches kill momentum like nothing else, all because the next #1 has to be accessible for new readers and then it makes it hard to get invested in the book because you know that before 20 issues are out you'll get sent back to issue #1.

>>91234538
DC generally shook up their editorial like two years ago. Doesn't really explain the Venditti types though unless it is just as simple as having upper management (Johns) talking to them about their plans like >>91234840 has pointed out.

>>91234821
It also didn't help that a lot of her readers were first time digital readers that don't really understand comic book relaunches and shit like that. Way to alienate something rare as fuck... new readers.

File: DC Gay Commission.jpg (267KB, 799x1200px) Image search: [Google]

267KB, 799x1200px

>>91234637
You're forgetting about the fags.

>>91234888
Yup. They see a short term sales bump from dumb ass speculators and then the numbers plummet. As of late Marvel seems to only care about the short term. Which is why we're seeing constant relaunches and crazy ass confusing variant incentives that require an LCS to buy up a certain amount of another comic to even qualify. People talk shit on Joe Q, a lot, but god damn would have have not let this slide when he was EiC. Axel Alonso has done nothing of note aside from getting Marvel some good PR points.

>>91234990
Who is bottom middle and bottom left?

File: Hal's Only Turn Down Line.png (1MB, 883x932px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 883x932px

>>91235052
Tasmanian Devil, who had a crush on Hal.

He appeared in that weird One Year Later story, where Hal got abducted by terrorists and nobody tried to rescue him. Reminds me of Omega Man.

>>91235052
I think people have said the other guy is Starman but no color makes it hard to tell

>>91235260

It's acceptable for Hal to be reuse lines too much. Being an idiot is a character trait, and not bad writing for him.

>>91235342

That peak of a star makes me think that's right.

The funky 70's alien one.

File: Hal's Only Pick Up Line.png (1004KB, 633x1281px) Image search: [Google]

1004KB, 633x1281px

>>91235371
Hal doesn't overuse it as much as his pick up line, anyway.

>>91232536
I agree with this, but also part of the reason I did read Marvel over DC is because I liked the characters more. I liked the Avengers over the Justice League, I like Thor over Superman, Stark of Wayne. When you toss those characters out and replace them with characters I don't give a shit about, you lose me as a fan.

Ms. Marvel worked pretty well because she in no way replaced Carol.

If Stark was in a coma for a few months (which has happened before) and his comic focused more on Pepper and Rhodes, great, sure. I don't give a fuck about some random replacement character.

What I don't get with Marvel is the shit awful creative decisions.

They want Carol to be a flagship character. They structure an entire evemake her an idiot and an asshole.

Cap, whose profile is probably the highest it's been in the history of the character because people love Chris Evans take on him, got multiple arcs of him being a jack booted thug and is now a Nazi.

People liked Sam Wilson in the movies so they made him Cap. His first story was SIXIS which inverted him into a complete asshole.

The first four attempts at character assassinating Cyclops weren't accepted by readers? Now he's a DEAD and books will endlessly tell you you're not meant to like him.

The minorities and women characters aren't the reason for their problem, they're getting dragged down by everything else. It's the flagship titles that mostly fucking suck right now.

File: How long has Slade been cucking his son.jpg (133KB, 864x1357px) Image search: [Google]

133KB, 864x1357px

>>91234840
Is this suppose to be Joey's fiance?

>>91235606
I think that's just a random african lady who was in Jaka's harem. Her hair seems a bit different from Etienne

>>91235506
I notice, along those lines, that almost nobody thinks poorly of Laura or Kate Bishop because they weren't characters pushed into their roles out of nowhere while originals were unceremoniously dumped. Silk and Spider-Gwen didn't displace anyone. Viv adds to Vision rather than subtracting. Even Miles mostly gets complaints about his book being bland rather than him being Spider-Man.

I don't know Cho Hulk beyond him being dreadful in Champions which actively put me off reading anything about him and know nothing about Riri because I haven't read her stuff but I'm guessing Stark being taken off the board by a terrible event didn't help her cause.

>>91235802
Cho didn't really need to be Hulk but his own book is mostly fine and there's an established connection there anyway.

Everyone is fucking horrible in Champions. Don't judge them on that.

>>91235802
>nobody thinks poorly of Kate Bishop

>>91215849

Because they didn't substitute Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner or John Stewart - they're somewhat well-fleshed additions.

On the other hand, we have stupidity like Iron Heart, Amadeus CHulk and Hawkgirl.

>>91235918
There's always someone.

Wilson's quote sounds more like it's describing what happened to Stark anyway.

>>91235918
>>91236014

1. No one on /co/ seems to understand that joke with Kate
2. Tony's still in Iron Man

>>91236057
I get the joke, but Marvel does play it straight too with characters like Carol so it can be hard to tell.

>>91236057
>Kate says "I am the best!"
>Clint says "She is the best!"
>Every character that interacts with her says "She is the best!"

A hell of a joke!

File: tumblr_oa8e1rMWty1qdsaeeo4_1280.png (1MB, 618x676px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 618x676px

>>91236119

With Kate it works because it's the same vein of humor as Clint's had. Like him giving Cap shit.

>>91232913
>They're better known as members of a whole (Avengers) than individually, and yes even Hulk.
>and yes even Hulk.

This is complete horseshit and you don't know what you're talking about. Did you just start reading comics after 2012? Hulk very rarely was part of an Avengers team after he left by the second issue of the comic. He was never an active member for a long time, only interacted with the Avengers in crossovers or events at most, and people that didn't read comics never thought of him as an Avenger until the 2012 film.

>>91233233
No. That anon doesn't know what he's talking about. In the time when Hulk was popular among the general public (70's TV show which also ran in syndication in the 80's, 80's and 90's cartoons) very few if any that didn't read comics would've thought of him as an Avenger. Banner didn't take an active role in the Avengers until what, the 00's in Mighty Avengers? And then Red Hulk became a member of Bendis' Avengers and then after the movie did well then you started seeing Hulk on the Avengers more often.

>>91236209
>Dat tiny hand.

File: image.jpg (106KB, 405x540px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 405x540px

Great art + great writting +likeable characters sells comics, lazy pandering doesnt

>>91236000
>Hawkgirl

?
Kendra Saunders version is almost old enough to shitpost on 4chan.

>>91237928
Kate Bishop is who that post was referring to

>>91235052
Half of them are bottoms.

>>91232179
>If the market is really rejecting minorities

It's not. The market is just finally rejecting Marvel's constant relaunch gimmick.

>>91234372
>>91234496
He's also good at writing characters who have mental problems or pathos, see Hank Pym in Avengers AI, he acknowledge his bipolar disorder and manic depression and did an interesting story revolving around it.

I kind of even think that if he had written pre-Bendis Peter Quill he probably would have done a much interesting story with him than what he ended up doing with Legendary Star-Lord but the Marvel Editors are idiots and no one bothered to read anything before Bendis and trying to write a good GotG story based on what Bendis did requires a lot of talent and a fuck ton of creativity which I guess Humphries just could not cough up.

It doesn't help that Bendis' Peter Quill is pretty whitebread and Humphries Flanderized MCU Peter Quill for his Peter, then that shit with Kitty made it worse.

>>91234990
>A team of Gays and Lesbians
How long will they last?

>>91236209
>Like him giving Cap shit.
I kind of miss that

Remember how about roughly five years ago people were pissing and moaning about Baz being a muslim with a tattoo and shit character because of his backstory and the gun?

>>91233233
>Was hulk ever associated with readers long enough to be considered part of the avengers?

Only probably among the most Hardcore Avengers fans, since he was a member for like two issues before he was all "I'm out, niggas!"

>>91234232
Jade is a bitch and a whore

>>91232913
yet somehow the Avengers book isn't doing that well compared to Suicide Squad and Justice League. Fucking Suicide Squad is doing better than Avengers.

>>91234097
she places at the Top Five Best Selling Marvel Titles every week on Comixology. Still pretty bad when you look at the bigger picture though

Because they're interesting, and their comic serves nicely as an introduction to the Green Lantern Mythos while not trying to trample on all the previous Green Lanterns.

>>91240908
This

>>91232179

It helps when the book's concept is that of a literal Corps of characters where introducing new members of the organization is not only less jarring, its to be expected.

Hal, Jon, Guy, Kyle are still around. The new kids don't inherently shit all over them simply by existing.

When you pull a ghetto black child out of your ass and have her constructing Iron Man armors out of junk, with no resources and no formal education, its beyond forced and you can actually see the diversity checkbox floating beside her head.

>>91243006
>It helps when the book's concept is that of a literal Corps of characters where introducing new members of the organization is not only less jarring, its to be expected.

This. I personally hate the idea of YET MORE EARTH GREEN lanterns, but if any lantern fan is opposed to the idea of more members when that's literally the basis of the corps... they're retarded.

>>91232536
Good writing and feeling invested in the characters? Not spending the first issue of their buddy cop book telling us how cool they are, like the first issue of Anerica Chavez's solo where it killed my investment in the character, instead of telling a story with opportunity to SHOW us why we should like the character.

File: _____.jpg (212KB, 725x823px) Image search: [Google]

212KB, 725x823px

>>91234372
>it's the fucking Gambler
Injustice society when ?