Even if it was justified, doesn't it still make Supes a murderer?

>>91158826
Is a police officer a murder when he shoots crazy guy killing people?

>>91158843
Yeah, he is.

>>91158843
>crazy guy
You mean mentally ill.

Does anyone actually care about Superman killing Zod? He has killed before

There are just a shit ton of other problems with MoS

>>91158826
How was holding his neck preventing Zod from moving his eyeballs?

>>91158881
he's still killing people

>>91158924
I always though the heat vision was more "foward directed" as in lines from the back of the eye rather than from the eyeballs. At least in that film.

It makes sense, though its a fools game to rationalise a shit film.

>>91158826

Good, he needed to die, SM saved a lot of people. Same shit with Batman and the Joker "oh but my self morals must not be -" bitch fuck off, in nearly every BM comic/cartoon the Joker murders people and even in the Killing Joke, he paralyzed and molested the shit out of your Batgirl but HEY at least you can sleep well at night.

It's the reason I can't like proper moral super heroes they're just unrealistic and selfish.

>>91158826
Captain America and Iron Man are murderers. Is that not okay?

There's nothing wrong with killing someone when they're an immediate danger to someone else's life.

Whether or not it's murder is just a pointless semantic argument. Since we're already having this argument here's some definitions of murder that have to do with killing:

From OED:
>The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

From MW:
>the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

So no I don't think he's a murderer. The movie was still garbage.

>>91158843
Yes he is until going through the review board. He doesn't just get to shoot someone and claim they were crazy

>>91158843
Well that depends, was the crazy guy black?

>>91158826
>>91158843

Killer, yes, but murderer implies an immediate intent to kill without any strings attached. Super killing Zoe in desperation to save millions isn't new, since he did it in a John Byrne issue. The problem was how poorly it was handled in MOS.

>>91159741
*Zod

>>91159741
>murderer implies an immediate intent to kill
But he set out to fight Zod knowing he would kill him. He never really tried to mediate or incapacitate.

He also didn't try to lure Zod and the other kryptonians away from Metropolis, he was completely uncaring about the bystanders which he obviously killed in the battle.

>>91158826
Jack had problems killing until he remembered killing is the only way to reason with murderers.

>>91160669
But if you kill a killer you're no better than the killer who killed.

>>91160713
t. claire temple

>>91160713
So superman should've just nuked zod in space?

>>91160737
No.
He should have thrown him into the phantom zone.
:^)

>>91160653
>But he set out to fight Zod knowing he would kill him.
he didn't. he specifically said he's going to stop Zod.

>He never really tried to mediate or incapacitate.
he was punching Zod to incapacitate him, but Kryptonians are tougher than most.

>He also didn't try to lure Zod and the other kryptonians away from Metropolis, he was completely uncaring about the bystanders which he obviously killed in the battle.
Superman at the time was inexperienced. he wasn't completely uncaring as he did tell people to stay indoors(or the air force will blow them up).

Being a murderer is not a bad thing depending on the context.

The person condemning someone for killing a mass murder to protect the innocent is evil, but the one who killed the mass murderer is not.

>>91160749
>he's going to stop Zod.
And what could that possibly mean other than killing the shit out of him?

>he did tell people to stay indoors
>levels half the city by throwing shit around
super kek

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>>91160653
>He never really tried to mediate
The time for mediation ended when Zod sent down the world engine and ended even further when Zod stated his intent to kill the human race by hand out of spite.
>He also didn't try to lure Zod and the other kryptonians away from Metropolis
False see pic related he almost managed to punch Zod out of the main collection of skyscrapers but punched too far on the last hit which gave Zod time to swerve and hide back in the city.
>he was completely uncaring about the bystanders which he obviously killed in the battle.
If he didn't care he would not have turned back up in horror when he realized his mistake with the oil tanker opening himself up to instant attack.

>>91160785
>>levels half the city by throwing shit around
Except that did not happen, he never punched/pushed or threw Zod into anything.
Worst thing he did hand to hand was drag Zod's face through one set of windows as a spontaneous reaction to getting punched into the building opposite.

>>91160713
>But if you kill a killer you're no better than the killer who killed.
No because innocent lives your defending are factually more valuable then the killer's life.

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It was justified.

Remember when the son of superman killed a guy with a piano in superman returns?

>>91160822
>innocent lives are factually more valuable then the killer's life.
That's incorrect. All life has equal worth, if you start to quantify who has the "most right to live" then you're a literal Nazi.

>>91158826

Killing /= Murder

Killing in self defense or in the defense of others is not murder.

Murder
>The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

>>91160854
Yeah, I can't think of a situation where killing the general of an army waging war against you on the battlefield would be considered murder.

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>>91159619
Those two don't have well-established rules against killing. And they exist in a more cynical universe.

Read JLA/Avengers if you don't believe me.

>>91160845
No because your not weighing it over something trivial and irrelevant as genetics.
You can burn the fuck in hell for diminishing and spitting in the faces of people who have had to kill to save their lives or the lives of their loved ones.

>>91160854

>>91160845
we quantify it then, killing zod equals one death, not killing him equals many deaths.

>>91160878
Four people fighting isn't a war, and if it was then supes would have violated the Geneva convention by killing an unarmed opponent. Laser eyes do not count as a weapon.

>>91160889
>And they exist in a more cynical universe.
And the DCEU is specially meant to be a more realistic cynical version of the dc universe.

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>>91160911
Realistically Superman can't exist.

>>91160785
>And what could that possibly mean other than killing the shit out of him?
it could also means to incapacitate Zod.

>>91160901
This is based on the assumption that all the people he killed were "innocent", which is statistically impossible and also incredibly vague.

And let's not forget that Superman is the reason they are there and the fight happens in the first place.

>>91160905

Its was an act of war by an invading force equal to a weapon of mass destruction. The efficiency those few numbers had is as irrelevant as your misrepresentation of the circumtances.

If you claim Zod was unarmed, Clark was as well. You can't have it both ways.

>>91160905
>Four people fighting isn't a war
There were over 20 Kryptonians, your right this wasn't a war, this was a act of attempted genocide against earth.
>Laser eyes do not count as a weapon.
If a certain degree of martial arts/special forces training makes a human deadly weapon then yes they do and regardless the world engine certainly does when used against the population of a planet.

>>91160905
I don't think the Geneva conventions apply to extra terrestrials.

>>91160854

>killing of one human being by another

So by definition Superman can't be a murderer because his not human? I mean it's a technicality but legally it would stand up in court.

>>91160936
So why didn't he?
He's meant to have super intelligence. He could have employed the equivalent of a vulcan nerve pinch or just choked him to unconsciousness while putting a hand over his eyes. Zod was already losing.

>>91160938

He is the reason they are there.

Their motivation in killing the entire human race an colonizing the planet is beside him.

He is responsible for derailing their plans through his mere existence.

>>91160942
>If a certain degree of martial arts/special forces training makes a human deadly weapon then
No, Scott.
You can't get a special permit for your eyes.

>>91160948
vulcan nerve what? he learned to fight in a farm, mate.

>>91160927
Realistic as in the world is handled in such a way, the army doesn't have flying cars or laser guns and such. The human population is strongly split on the existence of Superman unlike in other versions where he almost universally praised.
Politics & the media have a presence.
Superman can't just pull solutions out of his ass like time travel he has to actually struggle and work hard to win.
Superman & his family are flawed and not perfect idols. They actually take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions before doing them.
That is what we mean by it being more realistic.

>>91160946

Quite.

Murder is defined only in the law of the land, it is composed of specific criteria and technicalities.

>>91160938
>And let's not forget that Superman is the reason they are there and the fight happens in the first place.
If a serial killer follows me home after seeing me buy a new car and kills all my neighbors am I responsible?

>>91160948
>He's meant to have super intelligence
Were the fuck is it even vaguely implied that.

>>91158826
Superman kills shit all the time
Why is this suddenly a problem

>>91160957
It still is factually a offensive weapon biologically natural or not

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>>91160999
Are you kidding? Superman has ALWAYS had super intelligence in every iteration of the character.

>Superman is often shown to have a flawless, eidetic memory of everything he has ever seen, read, heard, or otherwise experienced. In most portrayals, Superman is capable of multilingualism, enabling him to learn, speak and understand any language he comes in contact with. Superman possesses intellect that surpasses genius-level. People from Krypton already had genius-level intellect, being a society thousands of years ahead of Earth in technology. In the presence of a yellow sun, Superman's intelligence is further enhanced, literally to super-humanoid levels, giving him super intelligence and allowing his brain to operate faster than a supercomputer.[30] His intelligence has enabled him to create effective strategies and tactics when engaging enemies during situations from which his powers alone cannot save him.

>>91161018

>in most portrayals

Yeah it's very obvious it's not in this one.

>>91158826
What is this movie like 5 years old and you're still fuckng crying?

>>91160948
>So why didn't he?
lack of experience. he just wanted to punch Zod until he knocked him out. and if he had any initial intent to kill Zod, the instant he got hold of him he would've snapped his neck right then and there.

also what?
>He's meant to have super intelligence.
>He could have employed the equivalent of a vulcan nerve pinch or just choked him to unconsciousness while putting a hand over his eyes
yeah, Superman sure knows how to do that. we saw him do it earlier in the moooooovie!

>>91161046
People still talk. MoS matters.

>>91158826
What's Clark supposed to do? TURN HIM IN? Zod would walk out faster than you can say 'Arkham Asylum'.

>>91158826
if clark was strong enough to twist against zods neck muscles hard enough to break his neck then clark was necessarily stronger than zod and could have just held his head so he couldnt kill those people with his heat vision

>>91160845
Guess I'm a literal nazi then. Enjoy your dead innocents and living criminals.

>>91159666
>innocent until proven guilty

>>91159666
The fact it has to be reviewed means it's not being treated as a murder. It's yet to be determined.

What I don't get is how DCEU threads always go
>Snyder's a visual genius!
>DCEU has the best visuals!
>Visuals are what matter! Film is a visual medium!
But then when you point out that the visuals of the scene depict the death of Zod as a bad thing, it's
>CLARK IS A GOOD BOY HE DINDU NUFFIN
>HE SAVED THE WORLD! SELF DEFENSE!

You niggas need to pick an argument.

>>91160970
I like how you pull out this copypasta all the time and how it's realistic for people do be divided on an imperfect Superman but then when actual real people say he's really shitty and the world would've been better off without him, you chimp the fuck out.

>>91161974
i guess Frank Castle is a nazi too

>>91158826
Yes, in comic books they never kill a guy even though they show police doing it just fine

>>91158826

Wasn't this the Miracleman decision? He had to kill Kid Miracleman, because that guy had slaughtered nearly everyone in London and was going to do the same to the whole world.

Like, if I was a civilian, I'd go - "For God's sake, Superman! Please, please, PLEASE kill him before he can slaughter us all! He's turned half of Metropolis to a fucking cinder! Kill him!"

>>91160653

How could he do it? Zod was as powerful as Superman, and getting stronger. Supes had absolutely no control over the fight, because Zod was already an even match for him...And Zod was rapidly becoming more and more powerful.

Like, this is new. Supes usually never has to fight anyone with the exact same powers. How's he supposed to control the battle when he's desperately fighting for his life? I don't think he was doing so well when Zod hit him with a girder and hurled him through like eight buildings.

>>91162184
>Zod was as powerful as Superman, and getting stronger. Supes had absolutely no control over the fight, because Zod was already an even match for him...And Zod was rapidly becoming more and more powerful.
I still don't think this was demonstrated well.

>>91162225

What, you mean like Zod developing flight, telekinesis and heat vision through sheer force of will? Remember when he flexed so hard he burst out of his armor, then went like "Oh, you're fucked now, Kal-El?"

It took him all of five minutes to control his senses, and adjust to being able to fucking FLY.

>>91162256
Yeah but the fact that they weren't actually hurting each other kind of makes it seem like Zod was getting up to speed but they'd still be tied at the end of the day.

Also now that you mention it, it did seem kind of overly convenient that it takes Zod all of 5 minutes to learn to master his powers, but I suppose there was set up there given that Clark suddenly and instinctively knew how to fly for no reason.

>>91162256
Dont waste you're time trying to explain. People need everthing spelled out in movies. The only way they would get it is if zodd yelled "IM AN EVEN MATCH FOR SUPERMAN AND RAPIDLY BECOMING MORE POWERFUL!"

If it were real life, it would be justified. However, it's a fictional story, and Superman should be more clever about defeating his foes, without killing.

Why does anyone even care about Superman killing Zod in MoS? Cristophere Reeve's Superman did it too - and it was a defenseless, depowered Zod. Nobody cares about that for some reason.

>>91158826
The decisions he made and the actions that followed are a reflection of who he is. He cannot hide from himself.

>>91162304
>You just need everything explained to you!
Yet when Zod stands in front of the camera and gives a wikipedia entry speech on his motivations, you guys praise that as brilliant writing.
We should call it the DSEU instead because you motherfuckers love your double standards.

>>91162361
>Nobody cares about that for some reason.
Because of framing.
It's pathetic how despite daily doses of kino memes nobody wants to discuss the framing of that scene.

>>91160713
If you fight your enemies, they win.

>>91161790

And how would he stop Zod's eyeballs from moving?

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>>91158826
Back when Cavill had a non-JUSTed hairline

>>91160946
You didn't quote him and your green text isn't paraphrasing what he said either. "killing of one human being by another" isn't the definition of murder. At all.

The definition of murder is literally "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another".

Those bits you left out on purpose, they're important. By its very definition murder means that there is such a thing as lawful killing, and it isn't murder.

And I can't believe I'm replying to an obvious retarded troll...

In my jurisdiction it would fall under the right of self-defense, in that it can be used to keep harm from others, i.e. if someone would run amok and I killed him it would be the righteous thing to do.

>>91162184
The movie offered plenty of options.

Among them, phantom zone and using the same thing that Zod used to cancel Superman's powers earlier in the movie.

>>91158826
>>91158843
>murderer
Wow people really don't know the word killer exists?

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>>91158826
What's bad with a murdering hero?

>>91160927
Realistically no superhero can exist. Not even Iron Man or Batman because their equipment is just as impossible as Superman's powers.

>>91158826
Superman Killing Zod isn't the problem. He's not Batman. The problem is the thousands of people that were killed in the process of stopping Zod.

Also, Superman would know how to save people without killing the Villian.

>>91158826
In a was, soldiers die because soldiers kill them. The destruction caused by their fight was on par with a war so it could be said that theirs was a war with 2 soldiers. Someone was going to die.

Also, the longer the fight went on, the more humans would die. Supes realized that Zod wasn't going to stop so he had to stop him. The only permanent solution was execution.

Lastly, only fools view death caused by war and criminal execution as being the same as murder.

You're not a fool are you, OP?

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>>91158826
>Even if it was justified, doesn't it still make Supes a murderer?

What the fuck does "murder" mean to you? In fact, what does "murder" mean to the Internet in general? I swear, half the people on the Internet have no clue what it means.

What is traditionally considered as "murder" would be an "unjustifiable killing of a human by another human." One cannot "murder" an animal. One cannot "murder" somebody in self-defense.

"Kill" and "murder" are not synonymous. "Killing" in and of itself is not wrong just because "muh comics and cartoons tell me it is!"

Man of Steel might be a mediocre movie. Its last fight scene might have been needlessly destructive, due to Snyder's lack of restraint. But Superman snapping Zodd's neck to save the civilians is justifiable homicide. Period.

>>91158826

I think it was the right thing to do but my main complain i had was that it was yet another downer hamfisted scene in a movie filled with depresing "Non-Heroic" schlock

>>91161018
This anime power level crap ruins characters.

>>91158826
Murder is never justified, especially for superman. The guy didn't even feel guilty about it, or about all the people he curbstomped in metropolis. There's clearly something wrong with Clark, guise.

>>91160793
The detective work needed to enjoy Zack Snyder's flicks is downright ridiculous. Can't he, like make good movies?

>>91160806
We all saw the scene with the oil rig crashing into the bulding. Supes wasn't trying to save anyone other than #1.

>>91167113
Actually in this specific context, it was most definitely justified.

You can't be a superhero and expect that you'll go on by and sacrifice nothing.

>>91167182
You can try not be a whining bitch 24/7 for starters. It usually helps.

>>91167217
He indulged himself by killing his enemy instead of incapacitating, he decimated a city with people that meant nothing to him. He sacrificed nothing and probably enjoyed himself while doing it.
We need to get Clark some help, stat.
Srsly you guis I'm worried.

>>91167240
No, I think criticism is exactly what he needs, instead of a gang of retards praising all of his mistakes and making up silly excuses for him. There's a decent filmmaker in there somewhere.

>>91167251
Incapitating how? Zod was a highly powerful soldier of Krypton who Clark got lucky and managed to put at disadvantage. How do you exactly incapitate someone who is a self-healing God?

>he decimated a city with people
No he didn't. Zod did. And he was going to bring it all down if Clark hadn't arrived.

>and probably enjoyed himself while doing it.
This is you being a whiny condescending bitch. Stop that.

>>91167272
Actually thinking a film through without being a nitpicking shit isn't making excuses. It's learning how to watch a film on its own terms instead of acting like an assravaged autist every time the director allows himself some liberties.

>>91167318
There's thinking a film through and imagining things to make it sound better than it was. You're doing the latter.

>>91167368
Imagine what things? Imagining that Clark legitimately tried to stop a madman overpowered General from demolishing Metropolis completely? Is that suddenly wrong now? Did you expect Clark to fly around and save everyone and then defeat the three experienced Kryptonians with ease and then smile about it at the end?

Sorry I don't know what Gary Sue shit you've been reading but that's not what MoS is about. And thank God for htat.

Neither are human so by definition of law this was not murder.

Remember that time Tony Stark baited a huge alien ship right into NY downtown while quipping about it and everyone was clapping their hands thinking it was clever and funny when he could've just taken it outside?

I 'member.

>>91167403
>Imagine what things? Imagining that Clark legitimately tried to stop a madman overpowered General from demolishing Metropolis completely?
Exactly, because he never did that. The shot was planned that way to show how powerful their punches were, as with everything else during that sequence, not to show how clark was trying to save the city. He never even looked at the destruction he was causing, just punched gleefully to flex his supermuscles.
You're literally seeing what you want to see, which seems to be a trend with fans of this idiot.

>>91167440
Remember when they spent half of that fight saving people and organizing them so they wouldn't get killed horribly by the invading force? He was a good friend.
Remember when stupid shit in other movies justified the stupid shit in this one?
I kind of understand the appeal of being in constant struggle with the movies you pretend to like, it ought to be more interesting than just disregarding them as the pieces of shit they are.

>>91167518
>You're literally seeing what you want to see
Says this idiot, who actually wants to push this idea that Clark was having fun in that battle to death and wasn't desperately trying to defeat a General with so much more battle experience than he had. Zod was ravaging Metropolis. Clark didn't have the luxury to hold back. He didn't have the strength for that. Hell him even beating Zod was part luck of their landing from the atmosphere.

He was engaged in a deadly battle against a more powerful foe that could've killed him if he looked away just one second and you're complaining that he wasn't fighting Zod with one hand while saving kittens with the other. Fucking retarded.

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>Superman was actually Black Adam the whole time

What did DC/Goyer/Snyder mean by this?

Who is the real Superman?

>>91167560
How does that nullify Tony leading a giant alien ship right into city center?

Also why are they quipping when New York is facing a deadly attack killing thousands? Isn't that very cold and disgusting? Why is Clark called a happy murderer in MoS when the Avengers are quipping and pretending as if nothing while thousands are dying around thme?

>>91167560
OY VEY STOP POINTING OUT FLAWS AT MARVEL WE'RE SHITTING ON SNYDER HERE GOY
Classic /co/

>>91167571
>omg it was zuper deadly combat ur a idiot
All the more reason to take it elsewhere. Even a retarded hillbilly like Clark could understand this.

>>91167629
>All the more reason to take it elsewhere
You do realize that it wasn't Clark deciding the place of battle right?

You do realize that Zod would never leave the city as he realized that the humans were Clark's weak spot right?

Why are you dedicating so much energy in trying to find flaws? What's your agenda here?

>>91167597
>How does that nullify Tony leading a giant alien ship right into city center?
Tony's an alcoholic, Clark can't even get drunk.
>>91167627
You seem to have trouble focusing on one topic, no wonder why you pretend to like that disjointed garbage. The thread is about Man of Steel and you can't go 20 posts without blaming it on marvel, you spastic shit.

>>91167659
>You do realize that it wasn't Clark deciding the place of battle right?
It absolutely was Clark deciding the place of battle, he could have directed it elsehwere at any point during the fight. Which is what he usually does during these situations outside of this joke of a movie.

>>91167661
Marvel gets a free pass for all its retarded shit and I'm supposed to believe this conversation isn't tainted by the same bias that gives Marvel a free pass in everything. Get the fuck outta here faggot.

If you want people to think the hero killing the villain is a good thing maybe don't use the exact same presentation as when the hero's father dies tragically.

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>>91167679
>It absolutely was Clark deciding the place of battle
Answer me this question; are you legitimately autistic? How many times do I need to repeat myself?

Zod attacked Metropolis and Zod was dead set on destroying Metropolis as he knew that would hurt Clark the most. Clark had no choice but fight in a densely populated area as that's where Zod wanted him to be.

Now answer my question, are you autistic?

>>91158826
Defense of other people is a valid reason to kill without being a murderer. Murder is a rather specific legal term, thus why you have other things like manslaughter, and self defense arguments and such.
The issue at hand is many superheroes have an odd pacifistic view on killing Hitler-like people like the Joker. So much so that it's almost a cliche were it not for others like Punisher that kill fucking everyone, but Supes is among the top 'boyscout' type characters when it comes to that identification, ie:
https://youtu.be/Gk5h5CEME_8?t=3m41s

>>91158826
superman killing zod as a last resort and the destruction of metropolis and smallville are two of the most idiotic criticisms of man of steel. i didn't like the film. i think it's another huge snyder turd. but at least shit on the film for the right reasons.

>>91167687
Marvel isn't trying to be serious.
You want Man of Steel in particular and DC in and Superman be taken seriously? This is the result of that.
To take things seriously means to put them under a microscope and question them.
This is what you salty children wanted and you've been crying huge sopping bitch tears about it for four years and counting.
I think you bitter manchildren have no clue what you actually want.

>>91167791
And Clark having to decide between killing one man to save others is exactly that. Clark's final trial before becoming Superman; making the ultimate decision of life and death.

But hey let's shit on MoS more and ignore everything bad Marvel does because hey they got quips!

>>91167723
>are you legitimately autistic? How many times do I need to repeat myself? REEEEEEE
You can repeat yourself until your ears start ringing, at any point during the fight, Clark could have taken it elsewhere. He had the strength and speed to direct the fight as you showed in one of the webms posted. This is a script someone wrote, not some event that was documented.
There is no excuse for him just letting an oil rig crash unto a parking building potentially full of people. All the ad-hominems in the world can't justify retarded a retarded script, laddie.

>>91167884
>Clark could have taken it elsewhere.
As explained here>>91167659 and >>91167723
No he couldn't. He was already at a disadvantage fighting an experienced Kryptonian general. He was never going to bait Zod outside the city as he was dead set on killing as many humans as possible.

What a sad life to get this autistic over something that makes perfect sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUcXEBI3NTI

>>91167765
>they're idiotic because I watch too much dragon ball Z
Even Gokuh knows he has his dragon balls to revive people, and constantly tries to fight outside of populated areas. We even see him rescuing people when disaster strikes.
It's a valid criticism, to the point where they had to shoehorn a superman rescuing people montage in the very next movie, even if he looked annoyed while doing it. It must be straining to try and defend this bullshit when even the director backpedals like a faggot on the very next film.

>>91167935
>He was never going to bait Zod outside the city as he was dead set on killing as many humans as possible.
Not by hand, he had other things going on. Superman, at any point during the fight, could have directed it elsewhere. A general isn't necessarily a good fighter, either, as they spend their time with officer duties and not on the field. Supes had been absorbing solar radiation for decades and was well accustomed to his powers, so he was at no disadvantage. Zod was still adjusting to the super hearing and being able to fly. Shit, they made a point of showing it in the very goddamn movie we're discussing.

>>91167831
If you weren't such an easily flustered baby throwing a tantrum you'd recognize that people aren't "shitting" on Man of Steel; they're discussing the consequences of the action. You wanted a thought provoking cape movie and now when people express those thoughts you can't handle it.
Likewise, "they're not ignoring everything bad Marvel does". Marvel DOES get a pass, but it's not specific to them; it's specific to the GENRE. John McClane can blow up buildings but it's okay because there's electric guitars and the movie shows him off to be a badass. Similarly the Avengers can cause some collateral damage because the depiction and tone support them. That's the action movie convention; you can get away with destruction if you present it in a certain way.

Snyder didn't do that. He intentionally did the opposite. His aesthetic was a conscious choice to show everything that went down in Metropolis as being horrific. It worked. People were horrified. That is EXACTLY what he was going for, what you guys wanted, and now you're complaining about it.

You keep praising the DCEU as doing something different and taking a risk in defying the genre trope of a destructive savior and how realistic it is that said destruction gets noticed, but now when people are actually saying that's what happened you keep complaining and trying to use the trope as a shield. You can't use it as a shield. You gleefully threw it away. And I bet that now that I used the word "trope" that's all you'll focus on too, because you folks are autistic as fuck.

>>91167947
Ok so

1, Zod is determined he wants to destroy Metropolis to spite Superman

2, Zod also have Kryptonians backing him up

3, Clark comes back, almost dead from the World Engine

4, Clark is already at a disadvantage fighting a war veteran of Krypton

5, Clark barely if ever manage to gain an advantage in battle, even when focused 100% on taking out Zod

And now, let me get this straight, you want Clark to run around and hope Zod will chase him around, when Zod has no reason at all to do that when he can stay at the battle location that is to his advantage.

This is your brain on retardation. I really hope you take out that dick from your face so you can read my posts properly because I don't think you can.

>>91168017
>>91168027
See
>>91168040
Complaining about the destruction of MoS is extreme nitpicking meant solely to reinforce the idea that Snyder is le stoopid director. It has no basis in the actual film. It's all retarded wishful thinking that has no place in the film.

Why couldn't Supes punch Zod into the ocean when they were in space?
It takes quite a while for anything to enter or leave orbit from the surface apparently 8.5 minutes for the shuttles, all he had to do was fart in one direction while they were falling and he'd have landed them way outside the city.

>>91168138
Why didn't he just punch him into the rings of Saturn? Like a really hard punch???

>>91168083
>Complaining about the destruction of MoS is extreme nitpicking
No, it isn't. You can't win arguments by disregarding the conversation, you're not 4.
>>91168040
Clark was at no disadvantage, he could have directed the fight else where at any point. Perhaps smallville was inevitable, but the bullshit he pulled on metropolis has no place in a movie about superman.

>>91168177
Why couldn't they just fight in the moon, like in Superman 4? That movie was great, Snyder could learn tons from it.

>>91168083
I'm not debating whether or not Zod deserved to die. He did. I agree.
I'm also not debating whether or not Superman should kill. He can if the situation calls for it.
I'm not even debating whether or not the destruction was necessary. It's a cape story. Buildings are gonna get damaged. It happens.

But the big glaring blind spot you idiots have is one of tone. You keep disregarding the tone. So I'm gonna dumb this down for you.

Snyder said "Feel Bad."
Whedon said "Feel Good."
You're saying "WHY ARE YOU FEELING BAD?! WHY DIDN'T YOU FEEL BAD AT AVENGERS?!"

So I guess shooting a rabid animal to protect others and put it out of it's misery makes you a nazi right?

>>91168216
>Clark was at no disadvantage
Did you somehow just ignore all the points I made? Coming back from near death isn't disadvantage? Fighting an experienced General who by now was becoming used to his new-found powers wasn't disadvantage? Fighting in populated area isn't a disadvantage?

All this retarded wishful thinking that one has to go through to shit on a film that by all means has well established why Clark was forced to fight in a place not ideal to him but having no choice but to do so.

>>91168258
I didn't feel bad at MoS. It was a really optimistic story of a boy growing up to become a man. I don't know, maybe the infantile stories of Avengers is more up your alley if you want to feel good. If that's so, then by all means go ahead. The story in MoS made me feel good. Because despite what Internet shitflingers say, Snyder is an optimist at heart. And MoS is optimistic in its characters overcoming extreme hardships.

>>91168282
>Coming back from near death isn't disadvantage?
Apparently not, considering the fight that ensued. Sure had a lot of pep in him for a dying man that could have redirected the punches to wherever else.

>>91168317
Your reaction is not the same as authorial intent.

>>91168380
What do you hope to gain by dismissing facts to push your retarded head theories?

Clark comes back from near death to battle a General who was bred for the specific purpose of battle. FACTS

He was at disadvantage FACTS

Even when he tries to punch Zod away, he flies right back at him untamed FACTS

You're a fag FACTS

>>91168452
Your reaction is not the same as authorial intent.

>>91168478
No, it isn't.
But at the same time we flat out have Snyder saying he wanted to focus on the destruction of metropolis as a tragedy. We have video evidence that the movie frames Clark killing Zod in the same way that it does Jonathan dying. Are we supposed to be happy Jonathan died?
You want a darker more mature story. That's totally fine, I swear that's okay. But you have to man up and accept the consequence of telling the story that way instead of constantly fighting it and asking to be treated like a child still.

Remember when Steve fought Ultron on an occupied passenger train for some reason instead of just jumping out of the train car in order to ensure the safety of the passengers on it?

Remember when Captain America needlessly killed brainwashed soldiers instead of incapacitating them even though he has super healing abilities and can heal from getting shot twelve times in the chest in under a year?

>>91167759
>Hitler-like people like the Joker
What?

>Be Hitler
>Launch a war that devastates Europe, killing 10s of millions, setting back infrastructure and human capital by about 30 years
>Results in the complete ruination of his own people and nation, their occupation and political division by foreign countries for decades
>Completely buttfucks the West European soul with his legacy, such that they've become self-hating assclowns who crave nihilism and can no longer have rational foreign policies
>Muh 6 gorillion Jews if you believe it

>Be the Joker
>Psychologically and physically torment a crazy man that dresses up as a bat and his lackeys
>Kill maybe a few thousand Gothamites over the course of decades
>Beat that one kid to death with a crowbar

I mean, I know that the Western educational system is completely fucked and all you learn about is WW2, so that's like the only historical precedent you can ever compare anything to, but come on! These two aren't comparable, like at all!

>>91168985
>>Kill maybe a few thousand Gothamites over the course of decades
Yes, how many average street criminals just kill a few thousand civilians casually.

>>91158826

What if Zod where portrayed by a black actor?

>>91169034
Okay, so the two categories in your mind would be:
>average street criminal
>literally Hitler

I'll just repeat it cause apparently you people are just completely fucked in the head by your shitty school system:
>I know that the Western educational system is completely fucked and all you learn about is WW2, so that's like the only historical precedent you can ever compare anything to, but come on!

>>91169109
So the average street criminal only kills a few hundred people?

>>91160653
>But he set out to fight Zod knowing he would kill him.
You're an idiot. He tried to stop him, not kill him until there was absolutely no choice.

>>91168985
Hi Bat-casual
Joker has tried to kill on massive scales many times, like Rock of Ages. Joker does hate Nazis, though that's just ironic humor.
Also a few thousand random people is a fucking ridiculous serial killer spree.

>>91168830
No actually. Which movie was that?

>>91169181
See, this is the problem with how weird and rigid your thinking is. Why is it so all-or-nothing? You seriously don't see how bizarre that is?

>muh average street criminal
>muh Hitler
These are your own fucked up internal categories, not mine. I never said anything in my post about average street criminal and I reject the entire premise of your line of questions.

I put this to you: How does Joker not being an average street criminal catapult him into the same category as Hitler?

>>91169223
I'm not defending the Joker, if that's what you're on about. He should have been executed a long time ago and the only way it works out that he hasn't is because of meta reasons. In-universe there is no reason why he isn't killed immediately by the authorities.

I'm just pointing out to the other anon that there is a massive gap between the Joker and fucking Hitler. And there's something hideously wrong with the education system when it produces people that can only use this one historical comparison.

>>91169075
The krytonians would've put him in the phantom zone already dead.

>>91169290
He gasses and murders as many people as he can, he nuked a city in another universe, I imagine he tries to occasionally in the main ones too. The only reason Joker doesn't match Hitler's numbers is he doesn't have an army and nation at his disposal, but his intention to kill people is about the same, if not nuttier as I don't think he has a specific group of people in mind that he hates in particular.

And again, when you're killing more than a handful of people you're far more than an average criminal, only mass shooters, bombers, and rather methodical serial killers reach those numbers, and they're always tried for the death penalty, even if a few manage to slide into an insanity plea.
Bats literally works outside the law, that's what vigilantes are, any other sane person would have shot the Joker long ago, fuck, Bruce slit Jason's neck for trying to do it, and the Joker killed them all by setting off bombs around them.

>>91158826
No. Killing someone who's trying to murder someone else is legally justified, and not murder.

>>91169337
I noticed you haven't offered a counter and that's because there is absolutely no historical figure who actually matches up with the Joker. Jack the ripper killed what like 8 people? Might as well use Hitler in the sense of "irredeemably evil fucks who don't deserve mercy".

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>>91168027
>You keep praising the DCEU as doing something different and taking a risk in defying the genre trope of a destructive savior and how realistic it is that said destruction gets noticed, but now when people are actually saying that's what happened you keep complaining and trying to use the trope as a shield. You can't use it as a shield. You gleefully threw it away. And I bet that now that I used the word "trope" that's all you'll focus on too, because you folks are autistic as fuck.

>Everyone I argue with on the internet is the same person

>>91158889
It's just an easy way to shitpost and bait. There are seriously so many more things MoS did wrong than Clark killing Zod. The entire hurricane scene for example.

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>>91169494
>hurricane
it was a tornado you tard and read pic related. Literally nothing wrong with it or the zod killing scene.

>>91169585
Anyonewho doesn't think that Pa Kent was poorly characterized, and isn't enraged they wasted GOAT casting is a casual. This is a fact. Pa should be all for Superman.
The tornado scene wasn't OOC though, he would want Clark to protect his identity, it was just poorly executed since no one else is around.

>>91169394
I'm assuming you're a different anon to this one:
>>91169034
>>91169181

Yeah, of course Joker should have been killed long ago. After like his 4th crime spree, some random cop would have gone into his holding cell and shot him in the face. And that cop would have received a promotion and high accolades from everyone.

I'm not debating that the Joker is not an average criminal or is not a monster and should be killed. What I am saying is that Hitler was literally a civilization-ending threat. Europe is still fucked up from what he did, even to the present day.

You say that Joker doesn't match Hitler's numbers because Joker has no army and nation to command, but it's not like Hitler spawned these things out of thin air. He gained control over an entire people by his intellect and will and his ability to manipulate. AN ENTIRE PEOPLE!

Whereas Joker's best efforts to gain followers only ever netted him a few dozen goons and Harley. And no, that time when he turned all of Gotham into clown-rage-zombies doesn't count.

Even if Joker tries to nuke Gotham, which, yes, I'm aware that he has tried to do so, it still doesn't put him in the same category as goddamned Hitler.

>>91169680
>no one else is around

are you retarded? They are in a traffic jam, with tons of people. Clark is protecting a bunch of people. I think Pa Kent event hands him a baby.

And everything Pa kent did WAS for superman, how did you not get that? It was pretty great characterization desu, especially for the Secret Identity story they were trying to tell.

>>91169454
I don't need to offer a counter to an inherently flawed premise other than pointing out the inherent flaws, no. A false equivalency is just a false equivalency and it doesn't need to be humored past pointing out where the things aren't equal.

Of COURSE there is no historical figure who actually matches up with the Joker. Including Hitler. And that was my entire fucking point, was that these two things are not comparable.

This was supposed to be "Junior Superman makes mistakes and learns from them". Can't see how people don't see that.

This was supposed to be the point where he decides he's never going to kill again and that there will always be another way. And where he learns better ways to go about dealing with super powered villains, that part actually happens in BvS when he lures and hits Doomsday away from the big cities.

Yes this Superman did things differently than how other versions of the character would have, but that was the entire point. He was learning why and how to be those other Supermans. This was supposed to be the first step in a long series.

Unfortunately it's cut short people dumb people couldn't see or appreciate that.

Whats wrong with being a murderer anyway?

>>91169694
Nope same anon.
So even trying to nuke cities doesn't put Joker in the same category as Hitler in your mind? That's a rather sad state of being. I only use the Hitler analogy to say that is the pinnacle of a person that you'd shoot on sight, there are far lesser criminals that you'd generally do that too as well, mostly in cases of self defense or defense of another, but Joker is well beyond that kind of criminal, as my example goes, he's far closer to Hitler in this regard, but Bats still refuses to kill or even let someone else kill Joker.

>>91169816
Yeah, and BvS plainly shows that it was a mistake when the literal ghost of Zod comes back to kill him. So this time Superman finds a way and that way requires his own sacrifice.

>>91159741
>how poorly it was handled in MOS.
what was wrong with it, other than the really cringy NYAARRRRGH afterward?

>>91167205
the oil truck crashed into a parking center. we can assume that no people were harmed.

>>91167205
it was a parking structure and there were no people anywhere around him, its safe to assume people have been trying to evacuate the city since the Kryptonian ship appeared above (which is confirmed in the opening to BvS).

>>91169887
Yeah, Joker is well beyond the threshold where he should be shot on sight. And Bats is insane for wanting to preserve his life. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you on this point.

>So even trying to nuke cities doesn't put Joker in the same category as Hitler in your mind?
No, of course it doesn't put them in the same category! Nuking a city is small potatoes compared to fucking up an entire CONTINENT for decades. Europe is STILL at this very moment dealing with the cultural and social backwash of Hitler. We're talking exponentially different amounts of harm inflicted. Are you literally incapable of seeing the difference in scale here?

>I know that the Western educational system is completely fucked and all you learn about is WW2, so that's like the only historical precedent you can ever compare anything to, but come on!
Just fuck me, dude. I used to think when the Americans and Europeans made these crazy comparisons to Hitler it was some kind of public hysteria, but I guess you actually believe in this shit rhetoric.

>>91158826
Zod had killed people and was trying to kill people again.

Justifiable Homicide, at absolute worst.

>>91167597
>>Also why are they quipping when New York is facing a deadly attack killing thousands?

to stay focused and alert, and to unnerve the enemy (in aou). it's gallows humor, it's realistic, and it depicts the marvel heroes as being hyper competent and experienced even in the midst of extraordinary circumstances.


with that said, avengers and aou had good quipping. the quipping in civil war felt like they were being silly for silliness' sake, and being that out of character kind of kills the tension.

>>91167707
>>91168655
the presentation is morally complex because real decisions can be morally complex and snyder / goyer wanted to tell a mythic tale that mirrors humanitys struggles. that even when you do the right thing, sometimes it doesn't feel like it.

by killing zod, superman just ended his only living connection to a world he has always longed for (which is always an illusion, especially since kryptonians weren't super powered on krypton). he didn't just kill a person, him killing zod reflected the moral and ethical crisis of killing by ending something that could have been potentially good if the circumstances were different.

yet if superman had let him live, zod would have eventually gotten stronger than clark and then clark would be responsible for unleashing a super threat against the universe. his hands were tied, and you can feel shitty about doing the right thing.


not to sound like le mature adult here but mos was primarily written for le mature adults who are still reading comics as adults. superman is an iconic character and i think the writers felt like they had to write something for adult fans.

by contrast, green lantern was clearly written for kids and it BOMBED (imho mainly because the villain is such a cringelord that i can see parents deliberately avoiding the film just so their kids never get to see that character ... and also because the entire second half of the film is garbage).

the real irony here is that marvel originally gained its rep by selling more complex comics for a teens at a time when other companies were dumbing down their writing for children, and now that their positions have reversed, marvel is still coming up on top. *

dc just can't catch a break.

*of course, imho a lot of marvel's success is inertia from their initial decent films.

>>91168454
>What do you hope to gain by dismissing facts to push your retarded head theories?
There are no facts here, only a shitty script and an obsessive-compulsive fandrone.

>>91169987
Yes, parking centers are usually empty. Thank you zaddy for u're brilliant kinos.

>>91170144
>it was a parking structure and there were no people anywhere around him
>parking structure
>no people
You keep hitting the fucking home runs, snyder!

>>91165079
there's a large, retarded group on /co/ who don't understand the difference between 'kill' and 'murder'

I literally blame Batman.

>>91172732
Complexity means you're gonna end up with people disagreeing. It's an inevitability that you guys don't seem to want to entertain, given the amount of tantrums that occur whenever it happens.

And Green Lantern didn't bomb because it as written for kids, it bombed because it had eight different contrasting scripts that got jammed together, terrible CGI, and a protagonist that was thoroughly unlikable, and a romantic plot so lacking in chemistry that the most interesting thing about it is the pocket fighter arcade cabinet in the background of one scene

>>91169456
If you wanna be treated as an individual, stop using memes and copypasta as a defense.

>>91158826
>>91158843
>>91158857
Murder is a legal term. If you kill someone, AND IT'S ILLEGAL, then it's murder. If it's not illegal, then you're a killer, not a murderer.

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>>91158826
It was kill or let people die. Do you think he should've let that family die? Or Is that what you wanted to see on your screen?

...damn only recently appreciating the socio.. erm.. political? significance (when I was 5 years old) aspect of wearing red undies over the top of my super hero costume automatically being the coolest thing ever.

also please don't use meme's name in vain in the house of meme...

we don't all have the comfiness to own pc's with lightening surge protection fuses ;p

>>91158826
Didn't Supes in the old Richard Donner film depower Zod before throwing him down a hole to his death?