Can we agree, now, that this wasn't actually a very good book?

That last arc is amazingly written, in my own personal humble opinion

As long as we can agree you're a faggot op.

It's great but it is overrated.
> Art is good at times but is inconsistent.
> Bruce taking on the pure sadist gang bangers as his person mob of Robins was retarded.
> Writing didn't match the art with "rubber bullets" and yet we see a explosion being caused by the muzzle flash from the tank cannon and mutants flying into the air.

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>>91109746
Overrated Wankfest books that are not nearly as good as the fanboy jerking them off to be thread? Okay got this shit right here.

>>91109746
No because I like the way it makes fun of talking heads.
>>91109879
Now this only had one good scene, the one with Orion looking like his dad.

>>91109746
>it's the same indiean who posted this same thread the last 5 times

Cant agree because it is a good book in my opinion, i do aagree OPs a faggot tho

>>91109746
no

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>>91109913

If we had a jack general we could get more quality threads such as this.

>>91109746
I mean, it's not how I picture Batman being, but it's just so sincerely nutty that it's still fascinating.

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>>91109913
From Indiana

>>91109746
It was pretty great
>>91109879
Waid is incredibly overrated

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>we've reached a level of contrarianism so deep and shitty that people have convinced themselves that Dark Knight Returns and King Come are bad books

Don't even know why I still come here.

>>91109746
It was good and necessary at the time as a hard character reset, but it has been held up as a sacred cow for much too long at this point.

>>91109746
one unpopular opinion i have and often dont tell people is that i hate frank millers work, i've read through all of it but i only find some costumes appealing, i hate the way he writes batman and superman, i hate his OC characters, i hate that it all has a lot of influence in other stories or portrayals of batman, i hate frank millers art. frank millers work just isnt for me so in my opinion, i find its all over hyped and crazy overrated

>>91110012
>King Come

>>91110053
Wow a typo what a shitty dude I must be

Go take your medicine you little sperg

>>91109746
I liked it well enough.

>>91109746
>>91110018
Underage should be banned.

>>91110065
>typo
I don't think leaving out three letters in a seven-letter word counts as a typo.

>>91110012
The thing Kingdom Come tries, other books do marginally better and I hate that only Kingdom Come is praised while those get overlooked.

>>91110103
funny enough, i like alan moore and gaimen even though they are also veiwed as overrated, i just cant take to millers writing or style

>>91110120
no, he was talking about the Giant Ape Porno comic "King Cum"

>>91110129
Let's talk about those other books right now then.

>>91110129
What are the books you're referring to? I'd be interested in reading these.

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>>91109746
It ruined Batman. Genuinely ruined. Regardless of whether it is an actually 'good' story or not, it derailed Batman's character so badly that 31 years later he still hasn't recovered.

>>91110129
This is the exact post I would make if I wanted to shit on something without having an actual reason for doing it

>>91110148
>>91110171
Supreme and Flex Mentallo are a better reconstruction and bridge to the normalcy, both delve deeper into the philosophy of that era's comics. When Flex Mentallo uses a mouthpiece characters to convey Morrison's opinions, it's very self aware of what it's doing and in that it becomes hyper metatexual. It knows it sounds pretentious, it knows it's author complaining about the present and wants to live in the past and it knows nobody has to follow the book and author's ideals because they're very much his that maybe shared by a lot of people but aren't the norm.
When Superman comes in a panel and yells how the world should be, it just will never ever work without winking and showing self awareness. Superman is not supposed to be that blatant of a mouthpiece.
In case of Supreme it was just Moore realizing he set up a bad precedent with his Pat works and just wants to write a love letter to the era of comics he thinks are the best and his favorite.

>>91110238
>>91110392
Feel free to disregard my opinion though. At least I can have opinions and won't just blindly follow the masses and not point out the absurdity. Call me a contrarion and be done with it.

>>91110392
>>91110428
No need to be so defensive, I too really like Flex.
Never read Supreme though.

i just reread the Dark Knight series and yeah it's not as good as i once thought it was.

>>91110463
It's fantastic, it can easily feel like a proto All Star Superman. If you want to read Moore write Superman, go for it.

>>91109746
ITT: contrarian cocksnots whoring for attention.

>>91110534
But I've already read Moore write actual Superman. I'll see about it.

>>91110546
There's never enough of Moore's Superman.

>>91109746
As always Zack Snyder did it better.

>>91109746
ill agree the ending with the "bat boys" is retarded, but i liked the story up until that point

>>91109746
Was anyone reading comics when this came out? This book probably saved the comic industry. It's hard to understand that today

>>91109746
No.

I mean, there are elements about it that are dated today for sure. 80's cold war, ROnald Regan, Mohawks, a 6 foot transsexual Neo-Nazi.

I liked Batman Year one more but I thought TDKR was alright though it did had its fair share of problems.

Dark Knight Strikes again is a massive piece of shit though

Dark Knight Return's is a classic as with all classics it isn't perfect but to say it isn't a good book is madness. What I will agree to though is the fact that it have influence the direction of Batman too much but that isn't the fault of Frank Miller or his work. Kingdom Come is fucking garbage in comparison.

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>>91109746
Can we all agree, now, that this is actually an incredibly good book?

>>91110237
What would you like batman to be? I hated the wacky adam west caped crusader shit. I think batman comics overdo the whole
>muh parents are dead
bullshit, but that isnt exactly miller's fault that the trend took off

>>91114963
This Anon gets it, DKR is a contained story and should only be judged as such.

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DKR is a perfectly fine entry-level book for more adult-oriented cape fiction, alongside Killing Joke and Watchmen.

>>91115045
Thats my favorite panel in any comic

>>91111126
>80's cold war, ROnald Regan, Mohawks, a 6 foot transsexual Neo-Nazi.
>2010's cold war, Donald Trump, sidecuts, a 6 foot transsexual Neo-Nazi

idk man seems pretty relevant

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I can't believe people compare The Dark Knight Returns to Kingdom Come dear god what is wrong with these fags

>>91115201
Eh, they're both futures gone wrong. Kingdom Come was a kinder rewrite of Alan Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes, one of the edgiest pitches he's even given.

>>91115272
>Eh, they're both futures gone wrong.
you just describe literally every else world story ever.
The fact that Superman fans praise KC is the reason I came to the conclusion that I will never be a big fan of Superman as a character(I don't hate him just not a big fan)

>>91109746
>constantly hear this to be praised for years
>finally get myself to read it some time ago
>it wasn't as good as I expected after all I heard
>but I still loved it minus the ending
>go read TDK SA
Ok, I'm actually curious: what the hell happened?
I don't mind the change of art style, but the page composition is a mess, the dialog is cheesy as fuck and the writing makes no sense.

Do I have a really bad case of shit taste and I'm just not seeing a certain depth that I should be getting? Because I'm at a loss here.

>>91109746
There were many instances in the book where I thought "wow, this is legit a great moment, but this moment would be so much better if the art wasn't total ugly shit".

>>91115508
Miller went insane after 9/11 and there was no editorial oversight due to his past successes. Or at least that's the common consensus.

>>91115635
>Miller went insane after 9/11
Weeeell, that's not strictly true. Sure, 9/11 did a number on him (not to mention Rick Veitch and Jim Steranko) but he was also going through a pretty rough divorce around that time. Plus, he got mugged in New York back in the 80's, which messed him up quite a bit.

>>91115508
he got way more experimental and abstract with his art after 9/11

Can we all just agree that DKR has no sequels, everyone would be better off this way.

>>91115508
nobody likes TDK SA so I don't really know what you're getting at

>>91115946
DK3 is pretty good

>>91109746
The story was good, but Miller's art was ugly. Would've been better with a great artist like Jim Lee, Frank Cho, Janin or Reis.

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>>91116000
you're an idiot also kill yourself

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>>91115976
>DK3 is pretty good
Define "Good" it is OK but Good NO. the only reason it is serviceable is because it doesn't suck as hard as TDK SA

>>91109746
No we cannot.

>>91115976
Not really

>>91109879

But Kingdom Come is great.

>>91116118
No.

>>91116118
it's just another edgy 90s story under a veneer of Silver Age wank that people adore because it doesn't look like what they think a comic book should look like, and it's in every library in the country so it's a lot of people's first comic book

>>91110392
>Superman is not supposed to be that blatant of a mouthpiece.

You don't know anything abut Superman, then?

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>>91116118
Explain thy self Plebeian

>>91110140
So, you like some great things, and hate other great things.

That must hurt like hell.

>>91109746
I like Beyond more as an "ending" for Bruce and think that Frank Miller is overrated

But this book is good

>>91115976
>>91116118
Both are terrible.

>>91116065
butthurt millerfag

>>91115011
Precisely; lesser writers trying to ape Miller were/is the problem. They only got the edge, and not the depth.

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>>91116000
>Janin
>fucking Janin
almost had me, anon

>>91115500
There are plenty of elseworlds that don't take place in the future. The Batman Vampire trilogy is certainly a bad end, but it takes place in the present.

>>91116335
>Implying the other artists mentioned aren't thrash.

>>91116470
Poser tracers are a special brand of trash.

>>91115500
That's dumb reasoning. There are Batman fans that think Hush is the best story ever but I don't hold Batman as a character against that.

>>91116338
Alright anon you keep splitting fucking hairs to justify you mediocrity but the point remains Kingdom Come is garbage especially when put next to The Dark Knight Returns; which was one of the first comic to take place in a future setting that wasn't really as depressing as other comics like KC and KC is just the TDKR but for Superman hence forth more mediocre and relied on bring down the world and every other hero so that Superman can look good in comparison.

>>91115969
I'm just surprised at the amazing change that happened on every aspect regarding the previous comic.
It's one of those moments where I think something is bad, but in a way that makes me unsure about my own judgment.

>>91116470
at least they all draw their own work instead of tracing over poser

>>91115685
>but he was also going through a pretty rough divorce around that time.

No he didn't, he got divorced in the mid-00s, years after 9/11 and DK2 was over.

>>91109746
Yeah it's pretty much 'normies first batman story'

>>91116500
It makes far better use of characters and has Alex Ross on art.
You're objectively wrong, anon

>>91116512
Doesn't make them not thrash.

>>91116691
Why do you like Janin's art so much?

>>91116671
Alex Ross isn't a good comic book artist

>>91116754
Forget it anon, they'll still try to argue that Frank Miller is a worse artist than Alex Ross because they only pay attention to the superficial

>>91109746
Yeah, I don't know what the fuck this shit was.

>>91114801
Damn, I had forgotten how bad it was.

I'm always surprised at how little The Cult is mentioned when TDKR is talked about. Miller owes it a lot

>>91116754
This. That said, he still is a wonderful artist.

>>91116118
don't listen to these contrarians Kingdom Come was awesome

>>91117247
I loved the cult but wasn't the cult after TDKR?

>>91117308
I guess its the other way around then, thank you. still little mention of it damn

>>91117247
The Cult was done after DKR, how do you not know this?

>>91116671
Are you retarded Anon? Alex Ross art is not better than Millers but anyway that is subjective but you show your true Autism when you said that the characters is KC are used better are you sure about that because Batman was an Authoritarian madman, Wonder woman was a failure that depended on Superman Jon Jon'z was made useless to make Superman relevant and lets not talk about Captain Marvel who was just a glorified plot point and the flash could not stop yet he could'nt stop all crime seriously! You can go fuck yourself if you think those where good portrayal of those characters as I said Mark Waid made the world a mess just to have Superman seem like the only one that can fix it. I will say though Miller did the same with Superman to a degree but at least it was only him and he at least seem to have his reasons for doing what he did and most importantly at least he wasn't a pussy in that story unlike Kingdom Come where he gave up on humanity because *In Joker Voice* He had one Bad Day.

>>91117376
Yeah I love that story especially the fight with deacon Blackfire reminds me of the Mutant leader in TDKR

>>91109746
It is a really good book, but like it always is with these, you have higher chances to be disappointed when you're told something is the best thing ever. Which is worst when what you discovered first were the hundreds of other things inspired by it.

>>91116740
Stop projecting.

>>91116493
The problem isn't with how bad the story is(which it is) but with the characterization of Superman himself. Hush may not have been the best Batman story but Batman wasn't characterized poorly in that comic but the way Superman is characterized in Kingdom Come and how it is praised as a good Superman story leads me to the conclusion that Superman just isn't for me, nothing against his fans or the character himself but all that comes to mind when I see KC Superman is that he is a coward nothing more and nothing less.

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>>91109746
It's a good book that, along with Watchmen and a few others, ruined comic books for a long time.

It's responsible for the grimdark 90's where everything had to be full of guns and blood and gore because "comics were grown up now"

It's responsible for now where comics constantly have to be pushing a political message because "comics are grown up and about more than just big burly men punching other big burly men in spandex"

It's responsible in part for the batgod meme in which Batman can do anything because he's Batman. Effectively turning him into a mary sue who can do anything because "oh he trained to do that" is used as a hand wave. The book didn't invent the idea, but it made it very prominent.

It pushed forward the idea that Batman and Superman should be at loggerheads. That Batman can win against him and has legions of batfags wanking over it even though in order to do so he needed to be weakened by a nuke, be basically deprived of solar radiation AND have Green Arrow fire a Kryptonite arrow at a bloke who was doing his damn hardest not to one shot Batman. I'm ok with Batman beating him, I'm not ok with batfags wanking on about it.

It's a very enjoyable book. I'm a big fan of it, and I don't think everything that fell out from it was bad, but for too long its been held up as the template for what Batman should be, when in reality the entire point was that it was the end of the road nightmare.

>>91117673
I don't need to project on anything since you've confessed to liking Janin's art.

all I got out of this thread is interest to read Kingdom Come

>>91117757
>It pushed forward the idea that Batman and Superman should be at loggerheads. That Batman can win against him and has legions of batfags wanking over it even though in order to do so he needed to be weakened by a nuke, be basically deprived of solar radiation AND have Green Arrow fire a Kryptonite arrow at a bloke who was doing his damn hardest not to one shot Batman. I'm ok with Batman beating him, I'm not ok with batfags wanking on about it.
You were right until here. Why you butt hurt Supermanfags need to dwell on the fact that Superman can loss to Batman is beyond me the motherfucker have so much exploitable weaknesses a fucking child with a rock and a decent left hook can stop him did you bitch this hard when Batman handed him his ass in Red Son or Endgame because he didn't use green arrow or a fucking nuke to do it and the Superman was holding back meme didn't stop him from getting his ass kicked plus its not like Batman was trying to kill Superman either. You Supermanfags need to get over yourselves Batman being able to beat superman doesn't mean anything and it doesn't make Superman less cool, bad storytelling did that.

>>91117979
It's "Mark Waid and Alex Ross hate on Gen X" with a lot of difficult-to-discern panels because there are a dozens of people in each one.

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>>91109746
I think we can all agree that OP is a fag.

>>91117979
Do it and come to your own conclusion on the book. I still maintain it is Shit but you may like it to each their own.

>>91117757
no the majority of comics books are shit with garbage writers, and this would be the case with or without moore's or miller's work. If not for them, DC and Marvel and all their hack writers would have latched on to some other stereotype or style and put out a generation of garbage just the same.
It's not their fault that people circlejerked and copied their stylings. I bet that even if they didn't get popular, comics would have gone through the same grimdark edgy phase following a whole ton of culture and media from the 90s, but maybe with different superheroes. The edgy 90s xmen was to appeal to the same teenage crowd that watched movies like Matrix, AVP, and Terminator.
Not to mention that if comics followed the happy saturday morning cartoon adventures style like in your pic, the novelty would get old really really fast and comics probably would have died as a medium those several times DC and Marvel came close to the edge.

>>91118240
Matrix came out in 1999 and AVP came out in fucking 2004

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>>91118065
I don't give a shit if Superman wins or loses vs Batman. It does irk me that batfags and writers treat the fight in TDKR as though he could take Superman 1V1 with very little preptime any day of the week anywhere you like with little more than a bit of Kryptonite.

If it were that easy, Luthor would have beat him years ago.

It's the batwankery that ignores what happened in the book that I can't stand, not the batwankery about him winning.

>>91117979
You should. It's a good book.

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>>91117522
>Alex Ross's art is not better than Millars

The bloke does for me, THE definative Captain Marvel

>>91120635
>Ross
>not Beck
kill yourself

>>91120695
The definitive "modern" Captain Marvel then sorry

>>91120721
>not Doc Shaner
still kill yourself

>>91120737
He's probably slower than Ross is.

>>91120799
he's been doing an ongoing for like a year now

>>91120808
You mean four and half issues and delaying 3 of them.

>>91117757
>It's responsible for now where comics constantly have to be pushing a political message
What are the x-men? Wonder Woman? Superman talking about being tolerant with kids?

There's always a bit of politic in art. The fact that most superheroes in comics are portrayed as self-made-man in superheroics (even Bruce Wayne trained hard to be Batman, as if his family's money didn't matter) while the few superheroes in manga are associated with the state or a big organisation reflect both countries dominant ideology.

Grimdark was a big part of the 80's and early 90's movies. it was just a matter of time before it appeared in comics. It would have happened even without Moore and Miller.

>>91109746
Bait-O-Meter: 8 out of 10

See, now this is a solid effort here! A quiet, straightforward poke at a longstanding and unresolvable debate. Stir the shit a little, and let /co/ do all the heavy work itself. Nice.

>>91118240

>being THIS WRONG

I'm genuinely impressed.

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>tfw you unironically liked this

How shit is my taste, /co/?

>>91123378
not very, it's pretty good

>>91123378
The ending was disappointing, but the entire thing was gay enough to be an 8/10.

I wish they had an entire series of heroes teaming with their arch enemies, though I don't get why it's called Europa so I dunno what name theme you'd do for the series.

>>91125604
1) it's set in Europe
2) it used a bunch of European artists

>>91125671
so they aren't on that moon

Bitch. why did you say 101 dalmations. i dont care you were forced.

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>>91117247
I love the Cult, that whole period of late 80's/early 90's Batman is my preferred era.

Alan Grant is my favorite Batman writer

>>91109746
It's 50% better if you take out the talking heads.

>>91125840
If you don't care about storytelling I guess

>>91109746
No, it's excellent. It's just not definitive Batman. A great elseworlds tale with spectacular art.

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>>91110392
>Superman is not supposed to be that blatant of a mouthpiece.

>>91125840
I rarely see an opinion this bad, holy shit. The talking heads allow Miller to tell 8 issues worth of story in 4, while giving a clear picture of what Gotham has become in Batman's absence. They also are often hilarious.
>-wha? No I'd never live in the city

>>91116470
Cho is pretty good competent paneler and page composer, he actually can draw kinetically, and does great shading and hatching when he's assed to. Sameface issue for sure, but if that's the worst of your problem's you're a pretty good artist.

>>91110237
And you want him to "recover" so that he can do what exactly? Feature in more completely forgettable comics that pander to a different set of notmuhfags than the ones the current completely forgettable comics do? TDKR and Year One are worth 100 years of that

>>91109746
The Dark Knight Returns is more of an achievement in technical execution than "OMG BEST STORY EVERY".

>>91126164
Cho is stiff and boring as fuck without cheesecake

Does anybody have the pages where he redrew some DKR

>>91126272
I thought his more recent Hulk book had some good fights.
His DKR redraws are shit though, definitely.

>>91120635
>Favorite artists' only story and best known story featuring favorite character is about him being brainwashed and doing nothing but punching

>>91126403

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shazam!:_Power_of_Hope

>>91126403
>what is Justice
>What is Power of Hope
Fuck off casual

>>91126272
his work on Totally Awesome Hulk was pretty good

>>91126485
That's just Shulkie's thighs talking.

>>91109746

OP is a trolling faggot.

Enjoy your (You).

>>91118087
this

>>91126197
But Year One and TDKR are nothing alike.