Why does no one give a shit about comics?

>>91097957

People like you insist in buying capeshit aimed at kids, and that includes mature titles like Deadpool or punisher. The industry can't expand as long as almost all the money goes to spiderman shitty comics. We can like it, we can love our manchildren shit, but let's not pretend it's anything more than glorified shit for kids, we rejected final crisis and we choose blackest night, we don't care about indie shit, only men in tights. Storytelling and art has not improved in 30 years in mainstream crap.

>>91098083
I don't read capeshit tho, I even said that most people tend to read cape shot while skipping over actual original comics. I agree with you

Because a large portion of the fan base are troglodytes who resent anyone trying to get into the hobby

>>91098083
Yeah, you nailed it; the only people who actually buy comics are to blame.
Those fuckers!

>>91097957
Repetitiveness of capeshit, where most of the market is

>>91098083
>we rejected final crisis and we choose blackest night, we don't care about indie shit, only men in tights.
And when I read my capeshit, I'll think of this anon's plight
Because these elitist indiefags will never take our capeshit rights

>>91098188
Those fuckers!

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>>91098083
You leave our lord and savior Frank Castle out of this

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Comics are more popular than you think.

The problem is you; you're looking at the wrong sales charts.

Comics inside the direct market (your local LCS shop) sell thousands of copies, but comics outside the direct market (bookstores and online stores) sell millions of copies.

However, you wouldn't know that from reading /co/, because /co/ is a bunch of plebeian casuals who only care about the Big Two, meaning that /co/ only wants to discuss the direct market (where Marvel and DC dominate) and never discusses the non-direct market (where DC and Marvel are dwarfed by the rest).

For example, pic related is the best-selling comic of 2017, but you'll never see any threads about it on /co/ because /co/ is too busy discussing the latest Marvel Rebirth or DC Generations or whatever other shit marketing gimmick they have coming out next.

>>91097957
Because America has reading problems
The only thing that propels interest in non cape work is when it gets adapted (Scott Pilgrim, Walking Dead especially, etc).
I remember seeing people getting surprised at how The Wolf Among Us was based on a comic

>>91098301
Even if they sell that much why don't people hear about it? I'm not super into anime/manga but I always hear about whatever the next big thing is and all the "geek culture" news sites are reporting on it whereas no one even knows about the next big comic series. I mean I browse a fucking comic book forum, that already puts me ahead of 99.9% of people in terms of interest in comics and no one on here talks about that shit. So if no one on a dedicated comic forum talks about or hears about this shit than how is the general public supposed to?

>>91097957
>Do you think the industry will continue to shrink?
This isn't happening. The industry grows every year.

It's not as big as in Japan because they have this big animation industry that pushes the manga and light novels sales, while here we have blockbusters every now and then that are loosely based on a bunch of stories.

Look at "The Killing Joke". The animated movie doubled the number of sales.

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Japans comics scene is different than ours for a MYRIAD of reasons so complex and spread out over time that it is not something the North American industry can duplicate especially not in 2017

>>91098386
Because comics don't drive the clicks

Comics Adjacent Coverage does

>>91098301
This looks like something ordered for a million college classes on diversity.

>>91098386
>Even if they sell that much why don't people hear about it?
Because your "geek culture" sites are only interested in discussing Marvel and DC.

Go read TCJ if you want news about the rest of the medium.

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Here are the Top 20 comics in the Bookstore Market for 2016

>>91098301
2016 sales

http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Bookscan-16-Top-750_sheet.htm

"March" is behind Dc and Image books.

>>91098480
fuck no.

>>91098480
The point is that indie shit isn't popular and the big sites don't cover it. Of course if you go to some uber niche site you'll find people reporting on it.

i give a shit, faggot.

>>91098563
>The point is that indie shit isn't popular
Indie shit isn't popular as a clickbait """news""" story, but in actual sales it sells more than Marvel or DC.

>>91098522
I said 2017. Sales shot up massively after the inauguration.

>>91098656
>but in actual sales it sells more than Marvel or DC.
lol sauce that shit. I don't believe it. Why would indie shit sell more than marketing power houses like Marvel and DC who have billions of dollars behind them?

>>91097957

If we included newspaper comics and children's books, people do care about the comic as an art medium.

The problem is why a single genre with high barriers to entry dominates a niche industry that is built to serve a niche audience. Why would you ever expect that to be competitive with manga?

>>91098522
Hold on, I misread your post.

I'm going to look for some actual numbers, but here's the BBC talking about a massive surge of interest in March.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38636362/john-lewis-book-sales-soar-after-donald-trump-row

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>>91098461
Not a good enough excuse.

Raina Telgemeier's comics outsell Marvel and DC too, but for completely different reasons.

>>91098801
I wasn't making an observation not an excuse.
I don't care what sells and what doesn't.

>>91098461
>>91098801
holy shit your pleb opinions are ridiculous, March is a great comic and was on the NYTimes best seller list. It has tons and tons of appeal outside of classes

>>91098886
Gotten to

>>91098886
Calling someone a pleb using the NYT Best Seller list is kinda funny anon.

>>91098522
>>91098301
>>91098329
>>91097957
>>91098083
>>91098156
>>91098188


Are you a bunch of retards? I'm serious here, because not even a week ago there was a thread where we examined comic sales, both direct market and in bookstores, and guess what: the comic industry and capeshit are both growing every year. In fact, comics are the only print medium still growing.


Capeshit, especially DC, dominates in bookstores, online, and digitally.

>>91098923
it was the counter the guy who said "it was just ordered for classes" but yeah using proof to back up your claim sure is funny and plebish you fucking tard.

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Because there are very few quality comics and 99% of them are shit.

Look at pic related. Name a single comic book that's better. Or name a single comic book with better art work.
Pro tip: YOU CAN'T

>>91098801
Telgemeier's books dont outsell DC in bookstores. Maybe single volumes do here and there, but overall DC has some of the highest selling books in bookstores.

>>91098522
>>91098743
Okay, here we are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/15/rep-john-lewiss-books-sell-out-following-donald-trumps-attacks/
>Sales for [March] had ballooned more than 100,000 percent

They're not naming actual numbers, but there's a massive amount of sales for March that your link doesn't cover.

>>91098930
Do you expect people to know about every thread that happens on /co/? You fucking mong.

>>91098963
easy, Airtight Garage and Contract With God are both better. Good job showing off your casual levels.

>>91098930
>In fact, comics are the only print medium still growing.
well, clearly the demise of print on general is the fault of capefans.

>>91098963
Berserk is your goto Anon really?

Really?

Sure it looks good but Best?

>>91098981
I expect people not to make retarded assumptions about this board and the industry as a whole without the proper information to do so.

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Graphic Novel sales from Bookscan over the past few years

Note the %s

>>91098945
Class sales don't count on the NYT? And that guy said nothing anout the appeal of the book, spaz.

>>91098994
Is there any comic artist in the West as good as Kaoru Mori?

>>91097957
I do. So there goes your chucklefuck of an argument.

>>91098972
Every DC comic combined sells more than Telgemeier, but a single Telgemeier sells more than any single DC book.

See >>91098522.

>>91099051
Sure but we probably aren't going to agree because how good something is is not generally something two people will completely agree with.

>>91099052
You're a nobody tho so it doesn't matter what you read.

>>91099070
Throw out some examples of what you consider to be equivalent technical proficiency?

Angry anti-cape fags are always good for a laugh.

>>91098930
Some of those posts don't disagree with you. Are you clicking randomly?

>>91099034
>This looks like something ordered for a million college classes on diversity.

is what the anon said. No book JUST ordered for college classes gets on the NYTimes best seller list. Goddamn you dumb faggot, learn to read.

>>91099087
Richard McGuire
Michel Fiffe
Michael Deforge
Aidan Koch
Connor Willumsen
Sam Alden
Julia Gfrörer
Blutch

I can keep going if you want.

>>91099061
Killing Joke has sold more over its lifetime than any single Telgemeier book. My point was that while some months one of her books might sell more, over lifetime sales DC has many more single books that sell more.

>>91099088
What about sad ones

>>91099104
>hurr durr you made one mistake so it was all random

>>91097957

no one likes to read dude

>>91098083
>and that includes mature titles like Deadpool

Oh my!

>>91099147
>My point was that while some months one of her books might sell more
That chart covers an entire year, not a month. And she has been a powerhouse for a few years now.

You can go back and add up all the decades together if you want to see whether or not TKJ still comes out ahead, but AT THIS MOMENT her comics outsell DC's comics.

>>91097957
most people just don't sit and read anymore

>>91097957
People love comics, just not cape comics. Creator-driven stuff that has a definitive beginning and forward progression does pretty well in America.

>>91098694
>Why would indie shit sell more than marketing power houses like Marvel and DC who have billions of dollars behind them?
Because Marvel and DC only have marketing budgets for their movies, not their comics.

March outsold DC and Marvel because it has the power of Trump behind it.

>>91098522
>http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Bookscan-16-Top-750_sheet.htm
Marvel's trades sell like shit, huh?

Only Deadpool and Kamala. Crazy how X-Men, Avengers and the big guys (Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk and Thor) don't sell at all.

People give a shit about comics, just not the ones you want them to give a shit about. It sucks, but what do you expect when most of the attention is either on adaptations and best-seller lists?

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>>91099307
Marvel has always been behind because DC got a major head start on them in the bookstore stuff and they don't have something like a Walking Dead to goose their whole line. Marvel is still rising just so is everyone else.

Here are the 3 of those guys from that 2016 list

>>91098716
>high barriers to entry
This is a bullshit line spewed by people to justify why they don't read cape comics despite claiming to love the characters and being obssesed with the shallow pool of auxillary media. You either read the comics or you don't it's pretty fucking simple. Libraries have them, amazon sells them and there are all kinds of helpful internet guides if you somehow feel daunted.
Fuck this meme and all you faggots who perpetuate it.

>>91099137
From a cursory example of the galleries of these artists, I would say that you're conflating compositional strength and intuitive art sense with technical skill for about half of them, but I'll give it to you on the other half.

>>91097957
>Why does no one give a shit about comics?
Why should they?

>>91099061
That's just not true. Telegmier's books sell like gangbusters at School book fairs and they certainly outsell the single issues but books like Watchmen, TDKR and The Killing Joke always are top sellers in bookstores

>>91097957
Reading is hard.

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>>91099425
I just don't give a shit about highly detailed comic work most of the time and care more about how things flow and move within a page

Adding more detail and more lines to a page isn't necessarily going to make your comic more interesting or exciting it often feels like a cheap trick

I am more curious what people can do with less lines

>>91099412
Why do you dismiss it so out of hand if you have heard it so widespread and from different people?

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This is my favorite bit from the Bookscan

Who appears most on the list name wise.

>>91099522
>detailed art is a cheap trick
Is that the sound of rationalization I hear?

>>91099476
Read the chart covering the past year. Telgemeier outsold Watchmen. Telgemeier outsold TDKR. Telegemeier outsold TKJ. For all time, maybe not, but in 2016, definitely so.

Unless you have a way to specifically separate out the bookstore sales from the non-bookstore sales, I feel safe in saying that she outsold them.

>>91099583
No it is just what I feel from a lot of what I see posted especially here, obviously /co/ is often not a good place for the entire picture but Superheroes and that style is often a death sentence (see all Alex Ross comics)

>>91099583
No fuck off, not understanding the fundaments of page composition and paneling, then compensating with LINES LINES LINES (see: Jim Lee) is a cheap trick.
Get some fucking reading comprehension.

>>91099631
Detailed art requires more skill and time than simple art, calling it a cheap trick is ridiculous. You're rationalizing.

>>91099709
Do you actually believe the first part of your statement?

>>91099699
>not understanding the fundaments of page composition and paneling, then compensating with LINES LINES LINES (see: Jim Lee) is a cheap trick
That's not what he said. He said:
>Adding more detail and more lines to a page isn't necessarily going to make your comic more interesting or exciting it often feels like a cheap trick
Now fuck off.

>>91099714
I do because it's true.

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>>91099522
>I just don't give a shit about highly detailed comic work most of the time and care more about how things flow and move within a page
To me that kinesthetic sense is more compositional and intuitive

>Adding more detail and more lines to a page isn't necessarily going to make your comic more interesting or exciting it often feels like a cheap trick
But I was explicitly referring to the technical artistic skill which you reductively dismiss as "more lines."

I seriously hope you don't consider something like pic related to be a cheap trick

>I am more curious what people can do with less lines
And I am interested in seeing the ability of an artists to combine detail with stylization.

>>91099740
You got a lot to learn about comics then I am happy for what you will find out.

>>91097957
>Why does no one give a shit about comics?
I think in general terms it's gotten better, at least in my lifetime I've seen comic readership on the upswing (I'm 24 and have been reading comics since 2001).

>Stuff like manga is a huge industry in Japan ... getting bigger and bigger alongside anime.
I think the thing is that in Japan people never stop reading Manga. A lot of Adult American comic reader might have read comics as a kid, but then "grew out of them", only to re-discover them later.

>Why then, is it that no one cares about comic books or graphic novels? No one talks about it and all people tend to read is capeshit.

Americans don't read enough in the whole. ANd what they do read is genre stuff like Stephen King, Dean Koontz or JK Rowling.

>People love stuff related to comics like movies and games but no one cares enough to actually read comics. What's going on here? Do you think the industry will continue to shrink? What could be done to induce growth?

The same thing has been happening for years with books and film. How many people see James Bond films, but have never read the Ian Flemming books, or play Tom Clancey's Splinter Cell but never opened a Tom Clancy paperback.

I think it starts in the schools. Get kids interest when their young and they will love to read forever. Make it a chore and they will feel like reading is punishment.

>>91099799
>You got a lot to learn about comics then
No I don't. This is just basic logic.

>>91099086
I am Stan Lee, ask me anything.

>>91098083
You're right Anon we shouldn't buy comics, That'll teach them

>>91099940
You shouldn't buy comics that aren't creator-owned.

>>91099826
>Get kids interest when their young and they will love to read forever. Make it a chore and they will feel like reading is punishment.
This is true. I have yet to meet anyone who still regularly enjoys comics who didn't get into them as a kid.

>>91099916
Y-You're not dying are you Stan? H-hows your health?

>>91099793
You are basically confirming my first statement on this that people are different and like different things about comics.

There is nothing wrong with that drawing but it is meaningless to me out of context

>>91099852
I feel sorry for you then anon.

>>91099522
>Why do you dismiss it so out of hand if you have heard it so widespread and from different people?
I have several reasons
For one, it's objectively false, even if you're completely confused by the concept of modern arcs/runs/shared universe, you can still go back and read the original comics from the Golden Age which are pretty much completely self contained through mid Silver Age, with crossovers only happening in crossover titles. This is not a difficult concept to learn about or understand, it would take about 60 seconds on google to learn, a minute of talking with a comic shop clerk (which some are awful I won't deny it for a second)/librarian or it can be intrinsically understood "Huh, I want to read about this character, I should start at the very beginning!".
>b-but these comics are shit
No they're not, especially not Action, Detective, Captain America or Captain Marvel.

Second is experiential. I started reading big 2 cape comics by reading the continuity steeped weekly series 52. I absolutely loved it, I loved the mythos of the DCU and the way the book explored it, despite knowing almost nothing about it. Things you don't understand or miss tend not to be plot intensive, especially since big 2 comics constantly use expositional dialogue or flashbacks to explain things SPECIFICALLY for these types of readers. It's more like being dropped into an in medias res film than literally starting one in the middle, because you are still starting at the beginning of a narrative arc, unless you have a room temperature IQ and can't recognize that you're in the middle of a story. It's actually a genuinely enjoyable experience to learn and absorb as you go, discover what kind of characters, writers and artists you enjoy.

1/2, hitting text limit

>>91099709
But "detail" is not skill in making a comic page you fucking retard.

>>91100129
But this is all confirmation bias

I like this thing so everyone who tells me they don't is lying because I like it. Don't you see that?

People have different balances of interests and free time and mediums they want to dive in on.

So them wanting a simpler thing to jump in with Comics does not feel like an unvalid want or desire.

>>91100116
You feel sorry for me because I grasp basic logic? Why?

>>91100129
Comics consist of drawn images, you fucking retard.

>>91099018
That spike in 2015 tho.

>>91098963
Vagabond
Gantz
Terra Formars

Not saying they're better than Berserk but all of them have high quality art like Berserk

>>91100085
Because I specifically asked about technical proficiency, since you seem to have forgotten about that fact. Like the way Mori uses hatching to represent the "scales" for lack of a better term that come off when you whittle or carve wood, her skill with light, shadow and perspective with complex geometric figures, and even her grasp of anatomy.

>>91099522
>>91100129
2/2
The third is anecdotal on both sides. I've known about 5-10 people who have said something along the lines of "Well I want to get into cape comics but it's so confusing!" but when I ask them "What did you find confusing, what did you read?", they say "well I didn't read anything, it's to confusing to even know where to start". This is not a statement about entry barrier, this is a statement about their actual desire to read a Superhero comic. If someone said "I don't know where to start with Italian Neo Realists, it's too hard, so I don't watch the films" we don't say that there's a high barrier to the Neo Realist genre, we tell them the truth and say that they don't really want to watch these films. Minutes of low effort work (googling, talking to a clerk/librarian) would solve this "problem". You don't just get to say it's "a high entry barrier" because no one has any desire to actually read the books.
On the other side I have a friend who has a bit of OCD so he literally took every book he could find on the internet from post Crisis DC and ordered the arcs chronologically, and now is reading it all. This took less than 24 hours to set up, and he's just been rolling ever since. He made the "entry barrier" an advantage to how he likes to read. He also set up his chronology as a series of torrents, so anyone else who wants to read in this way now can with no effort. He also took that "Morrison Bat Epic" image on /co/ and made a torrent from it.

Frankly just overall, to claim there's any kind of "entry barrier" to any media hobby is fucking insane when hobbies like skiing, horseback riding and rock climbing exist. Things where you actually have to physically acclimate, not just read.

So in summary, fuck off with this meme, it's not real.

>>91100191
Not that anon but I think he means that ultimately, even though a comic is a sequence of pictures, the detail of said pictures is not a necessary a skill in terms of comics. And he's right. Detail is not needed to make a good comic. Storytelling, transition of action, consistency, timing, and writing are. With those things I can make a great comic with stick figures.
Is wonderful art welcome? Of fucking course it is. Does it make a good comic better? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary? No.

>>91100418
Italian neo realist movies don't form a shared universe stretching back decades.

>>91100486
It's rationalization to claim that detailed art is a cheap trick.

>>91100191
Laying out a page and composing panels are things that can be done at 100% competency with very little detail, drawing 2000 panels on a page doesn't automatically make it better than a classic 9 panel grid. Panels just are shapes used to convey a story, and they don't automatically become better because you use hexagons instead of rectanges.
Mike Dedato draws much more detailed and photorealistic characters than Frank Miller, but he sure as hell is not a better artist.

>>91099412
>Fuck this meme and all you faggots who perpetuate it.
Agreed.

The only time when shit like that matters is when aspie fanboys go on about power level shit and who would beat who.

If seven year old me didn't get confused when I first read a middle story issue of X-Men then why the fuck should an adult get confused?

>>91100525
What does this have to do with what I said?

>>91100073
Fear not, true believer! I am still strong like an ox and I will outlive you all. Excelsior!

>>91100184
No, what I say in the first part of my post is objectively true, starting at the beginning of the publication is a surefire way to avoid all """"entry barrier"""""

>>91100517
That's not true, to 'really' appreciate the genre you have to watch WW2 propoganda Italian films to see where Neo Realism developed from and what its reacting to, have an understanding of the political climate most of these films were produced under (for example, Rome, Open City was mostly filmed in secret, the cameras hidden while they drove around room getting shots), watch the foundations of cinema to understand where the filming techniques used come from and what they convey. Of course this isn't true at all, you can enjoy the films with a cursory knowledge of these things, just like you can enjoy a story like "Joker's Five Way Revenge" by having a cursory understanding of Batman and his mythos.

>>91100558
Well for one, my claim about Dedato and Miller is a direct contradiction/attack on what you said. For another the idea that paneling/composition don't scale with detail is another. How fucking dumb are you son?

>>91100754
>...have an understanding of the political climate most of these films were produced under, watch the foundations of cinema to understand where the filming techniques used come from
This is hardcore cinephile stuff, not something people are normally expected to do.

People can't get into superhero comics because it's a shared universe going back decades with reboots and alternate versions and many different characters and series and whatever else. They have no idea where to start.

>>91100803
>Well for one, my claim about Dedato and Miller is a direct contradiction/attack on what you said.
?

>For another the idea that paneling/composition don't scale with detail is another.
?

>How fucking dumb are you son?
How fucking dumb are YOU?

>>91100882
You've been claiming that detailed art is inherently better right? So how is Frank Miller a better artist than Mike Dedato? How are hexagonal panels not objectively better than rectangular ones? Detail is automatically better because it requires more skill right?

>>91100946
>You've been claiming that detailed art is inherently better right?
I said that 1) it's rationalization to claim that detailed art is a cheap trick, and 2) detailed art requires more skill and time.

>>91100882
>This is hardcore cinephile stuff, not something people are normally expected to do.
Just like having an encyclopedic knowledge of the DCU is hard core comic fan stuff. There's no rule that you have to understand the stuff to understand the story. Fucking hell I literally cover this in my post
>>Of course this isn't true at all, you can enjoy the films with a cursory knowledge of these things, just like you can enjoy a story like "Joker's Five Way Revenge" by having a cursory understanding of Batman and his mythos.
"entry barrier" is a self imposed restriction. Read or don't. Anything else is obfuscation.

>>91101001
So you would say that Mike Deadto is a more skilled comic artist than Frank Miller even though he is worse?

>>91101121
People are confused because they are dealing with something that is confusing. It's time to stop rationalizing.

>>91101151
I never said anything about either of those people.

>>91101184
It's time to stop letting other people rationalize. It's a complete rationalization to say "this is soooo haaaaardddd, I caaaaan't do it" rather than actually just read a fucking comic book.
Supporting people being lazy and ignorant about a medium you claim to enjoy is fucking disgusting. Or are you one of the faggots who labors under the delusion that there's an """"entry barrier""""" and posts on /co/ instead of reading anything. Considering you think detailed art is automatically a display of comic drawing skill, I'd put you in the latter.

>>91101184
You've never rebutted claims around them. Tacit agreement.

>>91101301
You are also being incredibly short sighted to the breadth of comics and how deep you can go without dealing in Multiverses and 70 Year histories.

>>91101301
It's confusing to the point where people don't even know where to start. But I'm sure you'll get a lot of people into the DCU with this attitude.

>Considering you think detailed art is automatically a display of comic drawing skill
I never said that. You are lying.

>>91101380
>You've never rebutted claims around them.
I don't care about either of them, and since I never brought them up I have no obligation to say anything about them.

>>91101151
Not that guy, but this was never about all of the qualities that make one a good comic artist. It was specifically about technical proficiency

>>91101451
technically proficiency in terms of both art and comics can not be as narrowly defined as what it is in this thread.

>>91101422
It's not confusing, you pick a character you like, you read a story. Maybe you consult wikipedia or ask a clerk or librarian if you're really desperate. End of story here is that if you actually want to read superhero comics you will do it. Anything else is an excuse or obfuscation. You want to be a victim of the big bad cape monster so you can decry it without even engaging it, or rationalize (as I said, this is all the entry barrier is, a rationalization, not the other way around) why you don't read the comics when you're such a "big fan" of the characters.
I don't give a fuck if anyone else gets into cape comics, it's a genre I enjoy, and many others do, including friends of mine. If you want to nurse people's (likely including your own) rationalization and victimhood be my guest. I'd prefer to tell them to just read, and I'd be happy to give specific suggestions if they want to know. If telling them to actually do the thing they claim they want to do is somehow an insult? Good riddance.

>>91101399
What with something like a 250+ issue series of self contained Batman stories, Legends of the Dark Knight? or the literally thousands of Golden and Silver age stories free from crossover, reboot and continuity? Once again, starting at the beginning is a very rational choice if you have some bizarre paralyzing fear of reading anything in a shared continuity.

>>91101616
Dedato seems to suffer from Vallejo syndrome

>>91101764
>It's not confusing
It is, and that's why people are confused.

>If you want to nurse people's (likely including your own) rationalization and victimhood be my guest.
This is ironic because you are the one who is rationalizing.

>>91101800
What am I rationalizing?
Here's what I see your rationalization as
Claim
>I want to read cape comics
Rationalization
>but I can't because it's tooo haaaaaaaaard

There is nothing difficult about it, as long as you can read the language the story is published in you can read the comics. They are written at like a 5th grade level for the most part.
>Muh continuity
>muh entry barriers
Both rationalizations as to why you can't do the simple task of reading.

Let's go back to my skiing analogy. This is something with an actual entry barrier. You get on a pair of skis, you fall down, you can't go anywhere. This is an entry barrier. Your claims are rationalizations.

>>91101422
Mind you, this is the guy that thinks Miura's artwork is static

>>91101907
Nope, that's not me at all. Miura is one of my favorite graphic artists, especially for fluid fights.

>>91101925
I love the Frazetta-esque tension and weight Miura imparts into his drawings

>>91101892
>What am I rationalizing?
The confusing nature of superhero comics.

>There is nothing difficult about it
There is. Stop rationalizing.

>>91101979
Actually explain your point or fuck off. Things aren't true just because you say they are. I've offered many ways of getting into superhero comics that are very simple, like starting from the beginning, or talking to a clerk/librarian. Neither of these things are confusing or difficult.
Or just do what I do and jump in headfirst. You literally cannot even recognize what you are missing 9/10 times, and for that 1/10 it will be directly explain another 9/10.
You are such a little fucking faggot. Stop supporting ignorance.

>>91101963
I like his motion lines. I never thought I could enjoy multi kills more than I already did before I read Berserk

>>91102105
>Actually explain your point or fuck off.
I already did.

>You are such a little fucking faggot. Stop supporting ignorance.
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102191
No you did not. You used tautology like "It's confusing that's why people are confused" >>91101800
>>91101184
Or baseless claims like
"Or it's confusing to the point where people don't know where to start"
>>91101422

No explanation faggot. And of course you have no reply to the ways I described that are objectively not confusing, like starting from the start.

>>91102259
>You used tautology like "It's confusing that's why people are confused"
That's how it works. It's confusing, so people are confused.

>Or baseless claims like
There's nothing baseless about it.

>And of course you have no reply to the ways I described that are objectively not confusing, like starting from the start.
It's not that simple.

Stop rationalizing.

>>91102321
>haha tautology is a real explanation get rekt faggot
Holy shit kill yourself.
People get confused by algebra, we call them developmentally disabled, we don't say there's an "entry barrier" to algebra.

>>91102321
Oh and what isn't simple about picking up Action Comics or Captain America #1 and reading til you feel like it?
Once again, give explanation! Mong.

>>91099392
Walking Dead isn't DC either you pleb

>>91102360
>>91102388
Stop rationalizing.

You seem to think that if the DCU is confusing then it also has to be shit, so in order for it to not be shit you have to pretend there's nothing confusing about it.

>>91102407
>>91099392
wait my bad I misunderstood, you were referring to Image from two posts before

>>91102407
He literally says that in his post. Did you fail elementary school?
>> DC got a major head start on them in the bookstore stuff and they don't have something like a Walking Dead to goose their whole line.

That sentence directly says that Walking Dead is not DC.

>>91102443
I thought he meant Marvel didnt have walking dead, I admitted my mistake here
>>91102423


sorry about that, faggot

>>91102422
Nope answer my question and stop falling back to your MUH RATIONALIZATION motte, how is picking up from Action Comics #1 difficult or confusing?
How is tautology an explanation?

>>91102489
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102508
Okay so you don't have an argument, good to know.
How is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1. Until you give me an actual explanation, I'm not gonna stop asking.

>>91102551
You mean you don't have an argument.

Stop rationalizing.

>>91102588
>stop being rational

kys

>>91102621
I never said that.

>>91102588
I do have a very strong argument. It's not difficult to read from the first issue of an old Superhero series. It's objectively very easy to do that and read for hundreds of issues uninterrupted by the """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""entry barrier"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" you've rationalized around the genre. Please explain to me how this isn't true. You read capes or you don't. All else is rationalization.
Fuck off parrot faggot.

>Ctrl + F rational
>29 results
Kek

>>91102634
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102628
Well you claim tautologies are arguments, so you basically did.

>>91102681
I never made any such claim.

>>91102678
How is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1?
How are you operating the keyboard at your IQ?

>>91102702
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102700
Alright at this point I bow out. Fucking kill yourself.
Right here
>>91102321
>>That's how it works. It's confusing, so people are confused.

>>91102735
Stop rationalizing.

>Right here
I just stated a simple fact.

>>91102722
I hope you get captured by a serial killer and tortured for months on end before being found by the FBI, but the serial killer has somehow framed you, and you go to the worst prison in the country where you are repeatedly raped by the biggest blackest niggers on the planet.
Also, how is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1? Seriously, how is this a rationalization?

>>91102768
No, you stated simple tautology, and then used it as an argument. As I previously said, people are confused by algebra, and we call them retards, we don't say there's an entry barrier to algebra.

>>91098083
The non-cape comics I have or am reading is Wonton Soup, Locke & Key, Saga, Calvin and Hobbes, and Morning Glories. Also Mind The Gap, but I'm pretty sure that's been cancelled. For cape stuff I just have DC/Vertigo.

>>91102777
I should get tortured and raped because you are rationalizing? What the fuck am I reading here?

>>91102827
How is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1?

>>91102809
>No, you stated simple tautology
I stated a simple fact.

>we don't say there's an entry barrier to algebra.
There is though.

>>91102852
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102855
Holy shit if you think that there's an entry barrier to simple arithmetic there's no wonder you can't read cape comics.

>>91102881
It's difficult for anon to read from Action Comics #1 because he can't count to 1.

>>91102855
Tautologies are neither fact nor false, they are their own logical category.

>>91102881
>simple arithmetic
"Includes everything from elementary equation solving to the study of abstractions such as groups, rings, and fields." "Abstract algebra is a major area in advanced mathematics, studied primarily by professional mathematicians."

>>91102899
Stop rationalizing.

>>91102912
Whatever.

>>91098083
This isn't an explanation for why comics aren't popular in the States. This is more like /a/ being butthurt that Naruto's more popular than their moe manga.

Reminder that this is basically only in America. In other places of the world, there is comics selling better than Batman and such.

>>91102918
Man once you bust out the definitions in people's answers you know you've completely lost the argument.
How is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1? Why do you continue to rationalize your lack of desire to read cape comics? Either read them or don't. It's quite simple.

>>91102957
>Man once you bust out the definitions in people's answers you know you've completely lost the argument.
What is this even supposed to mean?

Stop rationalizing.

>>91097957
There's a stigma when it comes to comics anon. I used to hide my comics from my girlfriend because from where I'm from if you read comics you're a child

>>91102957
Hasn't most capeshit had reboots and different continuities over the years under different authors? I feel like that could make it hard for someone who wants to get into capeshit to pick a starting point.

>inb4 read them all
That's an enormous backlog to become caught up with. A more likely scenario is that someone who is somewhat interested will be caught in choice paralysis, and decide that it isn't worth the effort and watch MCU films instead.

>>91102975
You had to define algebra to its absolute limits in order to justify the idea that there's an entry barrier to it. Obviously I was talking about the basic level of it, because people aren't considered retarded if they don't understand professional tier math. Basically you have to obfuscate from the point by using ridiculous definitions rather than actually engaging the argument. Just like you do by MUH RATIONALIZATION
How is it difficult to read from Action Comics #1? How is this not simple? How is it not """"that"""" simple as you say?

>>91103036
>Basically you have to obfuscate from the point by using ridiculous definitions rather than actually engaging the argument.
I didn't do anything like that though.

Stop rationalizing.

>>91103023
So they don't actually want to read, but watch a movie? Why is it crazy to suggest starting from the beginning? Social stigmas of IT'S BAD CUZ IT'S OLD?

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Like every book store has a comics section. It's not hard to go get Dark Knight Returns or Court of Owls or All Star Superman or any of the REBIRTH 1 trades or Civil War or Old Man Logan or Thor or Planet Hulk etc etc

and then there's all the stuff without superheroes

>>91103045
You did though, you completely ignored the context of the sentence, then started talking about advanced algebra in a quoted definition to justify an entry barrier.
I really hope you're trolling at this point honestly.

>>91103069
>So they don't actually want to read, but watch a movie?
That's right. They get choice paralysis from 80 years of comics in a large multiverse of comics that they know nothing about, so that means they just don't want to read.

>>91103093
Stop trolling.

>>91103113
You mean they create a rationalization around why they don't need to read but instead should watch the MCU? Fuck off.

>>91103158
>rationalization

Nigger what? Do you have no understanding of psychology?

>>91103180
Honestly fuck off with your choice paralysis bullshit. It's nothing more than an excuse. Tons of people read capes, they don't get paralyzed, there's tons of movies out at all times, yet they can chose the MCU?

>>91103158
Yeah if they were actually interested they'd just start at the beginning and read everything. How hard can it be?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DC_Comics_publications
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DC_Multiverse_worlds

>>91103258
Action Comics #1, it's right there it's the earliest. YOU are over complicating it by bringing in multiverses etc.

>>91103283
>Action Comics #1, it's right there it's the earliest.
Sure. Of course. Just start there and then read all the things. Easy. I can't imagine how anyone could be confused and turned off by the simplicity of it all.

>>91103312
I can't imagine how little you actually are interested in capes if you are turned off by the idea that there is more than one title.
Also yea you can read hundreds of issues of Action without having to read anything else.

>>91103252
>yet they can chose the MCU?
Because it's the comic book stories they know about through childhood or cultural osmosis in a more digestible form than 80 years of comics with all sorts of different continuities and authors.

>>91103325
Yeah, if someone takes a look at this 80 year clusterfuck of characters, series, universes and reboots and has no idea what to do with any of it, it must mean they weren't interested.

>>91103328
Nope, not buying it. How are they not paralyzed by the choice of film, they have no justification being paralyzed by the choice of cape title.
It is a lack of impetus. And that's fine. I don't fault anyone for being disinterested in capes, the genre isn't for everyone. But to claim there's some insane difficulty in reading cape comics is so pathetic. JUST READ.

>>91103366
Frankly if they don't feel spoiled for choice, and aren't at least able to zero in on a character or sub genre, it does.
Also, once again, if they're that mentally stunted that they can't make a decision, just go to the start. Hundreds of issues.

>>91103400
Yes, they must be mentally stunted. Only mentally stunted people have choice paralysis, limited time and a worry about approaching the series in the wrong way. And starting from the 1930s is obviously a very trivial thing to do.

It really is strange that these comics aren't more popular. What could be causing it?

>>91103455
Popularity is so irrelevant, as I said, I don't care if they don't want to read them, I hate you faggots trying to claim it's a fault of the genre and not just straight up disinterest.

>>91097957
>manga is a huge industry
manga volumes are larger and have more content than single issues. i don't bother with single issues either, i wait for TPB (trade paperbacks) to come out

>all people tend to read is capeshit
that description primarily fits the because here in the U.S., people are stupid and have short attention spans. also many of us are poor and don't have the money to invest in things we don't know about. personally, i get around this by paying attention to /co/ and learning about new thing that other people talk about and then buy it used off of the internet then trade it in for other things in the comic book store that i frequent

>what could be done to induce growth?
the sales that exist now from the big two is for kids and teens. both of the big two have cartoons for younger audiences, so they grow up liking something and spend money on it as an adult. the problem then becomes the big two never moving on to mature stories. so now you have disasters like marvel who are haphazardly catering to a younger audience that isn't there.

growth is a question we can't really answer, because it appears that a big comic company like marvel can make all kinds of stupid mistakes and it doesn't matter because they could just be refinanced by disney anyway.

what's going to have to happen is that people stop spending money on either of the big two (especially marvel) until they get their shit together. i don't want to see growth in an industry that relies completely on characters like superman which is from 1938 and refuses to write for adults.

the best we can do is only spend what little money we have on non-capeshit. that's the best answer i think

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>>91103455
>And starting from the 1930s is obviously a very trivial thing to do.
Room temperature IQ

>>91098930
which comic sales? single first issues? be specific

also do you think that's only because of movies for the capeshits? i mean come on. i don't think you're saying that indie stuff is increasing. please provide links and citation

>>91103506
Yes, if people actually had any interest they'd just start reading from the 1930s and go through hundreds and hundreds of issues and all the different characters, settings and reboots.

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-reboot-history/

>>91103539
Yes, it's obviously a question of intelligence. If people are just smart, then they'll start reading from the 1930s.

DC dindu nuffin, it's the people who are stupid.

>>91098431
you just provided an example of a different industry affecting comic sales. not comic sales improving itself

>>91103551
Scan the thread, m8.

>>91099165
>>91099292

that's very, VERY bad. not just for comic sales but for society

>>91103551
Sales for indie comics are increasing. Take >>91099406 as just one example.

>>91103575
>if people had interest they would read about the characters and enjoy them
Y-yes? What are you implying interest looks like?

>>91103575
I mean I figured out a way to get those comics in about 3 seconds, so it's pretty trivial.
Read or do not. There is no try.

>>91103643
>if people had interest they would read about the characters and enjoy them
That's what I said, yes. In no way was I trying to draw attention to the enormous scale, length, complexity and convolution of the DC universe.

>I mean I figured out a way to get those comics in about 3 seconds, so it's pretty trivial.
Yes, the entire problem is downloading the comics. That's all it is. That's the issue people have. When they ask where to start they really mean where the torrents at.

>>91103643
But reading those won't catch you up to where things are today because of stuff like Crisis on Infinite Earths, which is already 30 years out of date in the general continuity of "wtf is going on in capeshit"

>>91103678
But that's something that is intrinsic to the company. You're gonna have to take that element with it if you want to read DC. If you can't accept that and dive in, then you really aren't very interested. And that's okay.

>>91103704
If you only care about continuity you should save the time and money and read wikipedia.

>>91103720
That's right, people just aren't interested. They are just baiting by announcing their fake interest in the series and asking where they should start, because it's just a simple matter of starting with comics published in the 1930s (which may or may no longer be of any relevance to the canon) and working your way to 2017. Really, they should just fuck off with their stupid fake questions. They aren't interested. Fucking retards. DC dindu nuffin.

>>91103641
yeah i saw that. i think certain publishers are relying on first single issues. also it's not taking in to account movies. it's gotten to where people only get comics because they saw a movie

>>91103787
>caring about canon
Surefire way to show you're not interested. Just read wikipedia if that's what you're looking for.
And I welcome people looking for recommendations and will happily send them places. I'd say start at the New 52 depending on the character they're interested in. It's the people who just abjectly claim MUH ENTRY BARRIER I don't find to be legitimately interested.

>>91103787
They're just rationalizing, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

Clearly, this is 100% straightforward.

>>91103813
That chart covers collected editions, not single issues.

>>91103818
>Surefire way to show you're not interested.
I know. Fans don't care about that stuff. It's the fake non-fans who waste all their time with wikias and shit.

>It's the people who just abjectly claim MUH ENTRY BARRIER I don't find to be legitimately interested.
Yeah, why can't they realize the simplicity of starting from the 1930s?

It's really weird that DC and Marvel aren't as popular as manga.

>>91099412
>libraries have them

actually, not all libraries are the same. some of us live in rural areas or the southern states of the u.s. where the economy is shit and bible thumpers burn magic the gathering cards. take it down a notch.

>>91103842
okay what is a collected edition? is that like a special way of saying hardcover TPB?

>>91103869
>Popularity
You keep using that word like it's significant. People don't want to get into it. That's okay.

>>91103925
>hardcover TPB
>hardcover trade paperback

Surely collected edition is self-explanatory. It collects.

>>91103539
lol it's like they think it's totally reasonable for people who like the hobbit should start with the silmarillion

>>91103925
>hardcover TPB
>hardcover paperback
You what.

That chart covers all their releases which aren't floppies, both softcover and hardcover.

>>91103969
ah, so you mean installments of ongoing volumes.

trade paperbacks

>>91103989
And hardcovers.

And OGNs too, while we're at it.

>>91103948
Yeah. The bottomline is that if people think there's anything daunting about it and aren't committed to starting all the way from the 1930s they should fuck right off because we don't need them. Us elite intellectually euphoric fans are all DC needs.

>>91103975
trade paperbacks

hardcovers are made of..... paper

>>91103989
>ah, so you mean installments of ongoing volumes.
>trade paperbacks

Jesus you're dense. You know there's more than one word for things right?

>>91103972
No I merely suggest it as a way to avoid the "clusterfuck" other people are talking about. You can't have it both ways faggots. And how are early action comics at all like the Similarion? Superman is still the star of the comics with the same backstory and almost the same powers (save flying) you fucking mongoloid

>>91104007
>A paperback is a type of book characterized by a thick paper or paperboard cover
>In contrast, hardcover or hardback books are bound with cardboard covered with cloth.
They are not the same.

You asked us to "be specific" so don't shit all over yourself now.

>>91104031
i do now.

>>91104007
>hardcovers are made of..... paper
paperback books mean not hardcover. you can't possibly be this stupid.

>>91104006
No see >>91104033 for why I suggest starting from the beginning, since you complain about approaching any kind of expanded continuity like it's ascending fucking mount Everest.

>>91103925
I'll make it simple for you.

>if a comic is bound with staples
Then the most-accurate sales figures are recorded by Diamond (and the best website to look the sales up is Comichron).

>if a comic is bound with glue
Then the most-accurate sales figures are recorded by Bookscan (and the best website to look the sales up is Comicsbeat).

According to the Bookscan chart, your theory (about all indie growth being just #1 issues) is garbage.

>>91104033
by all means, please evangelize to everyone your method of how DC comics should be read. the other comic publishers could use the sales.

when gaining an introduction to something, people do not want to be bogged down in detail. i can tell you right now that the 1930s and 1940s method of storytelling and way of writing, the words used is going to repel people. i was using the hobbit and silmarillion as an example of how people's exposure to something has to be handled in a coherent way.

>superman is still the main character of the story unlike middle earth

perish the thought that maybe that's why people lose interest. maybe that's too much material about only one single character. maybe stories should begin and end. maybe superman should die. oh wait he already has, thus losing even more literary meaning as a character.

one of the reasons i don't bother reading DC comics is specifically because i would approach reading them the way you suggest because it's orderly. but i also realize i don't want to spend the time on a character from 1938 that's a mary sue from the very beginning.

>>91104006
>us elite intellectually euphoric fans are all DC needs
and movies to attract others
and kids cartoons to attract kids
and theme parks with superhero themed rides

mooby the golden calf is proud of you

>>91104046
Telling someone to "start from the beginning" is the most retarded way to help someone get into comics. There's literally no point in reading Action Comics starting at #1 and going through all 900+ issues. It's not a single story; it's literally hundreds of stories featuring no less than three distinct Supermen as main characters.

>>91104196
>about all the indie growth being #1 issues

i was bringing the #1 issues in reference to the big two, especially DC

>>91104217
but it's too hard to get into the comics other wise? make up your mind?

>>91104229
Floppies aren't covered by Bookscan (because floppies have staples), but Bookscan shows Marvel and DC growing too.

>>91104213
So you literally aren't interested in the cape genre? Its conventions are poor writing to you?
Were you the same person claiming that everyone wants to get into it, but just are barred from it?

>>91104250
people can't search genres concerning titles they are unaware of.

comic book stores do not have pics and lists that /co/ has concerning lesser known stories.

talking to you is like talking to an establishment liberal or conservative that refuses to understand the need for there to be other political parties because not everyone fits the special snowflake brainwashed consumer mold

>>91104250
I never said it was hard. However yeah -- if you just want to figure out on your own where to start with Superman, for instance, it can be tough. But if you're going to recommend someone a place to get started, "just start back in 1939" is about the worst advice you can give.

>>91104286
Why? because you treat canon as god? early Action Comics are fucking great!

>>91097957
Because the majority of comics all up in everyone's faces are shitty version of things people already like. Marvel/DC comics are shit compared to the movies/shows. Every single licensed comic is garbage compared to the source. Why would anybody want to read comics if that's all it appears to be?

>>91104313
I don't give a shit about canon when I'm recommending. And if you like those early issues, then sure ... recommend some specific issues. But telling someone "here: read these 900 issues -- it's the best way to get into superman!" is fucking asinine.

>>91104265
>so you literally aren't interested in the cape genre?
so are you literally playing with a deck that all say ad hominem on them?
>its conventions are poor writing to you?
not all of us are orthodox cultists

i started with capeshit when i was a kid. i liked x-men. i don't follow x-men that much any more and i certainly don't spend money on x-men any more. there was never a time when i felt the need to read the first 20 years worth of x-men. there was plenty to draw from after the late 70s and 80s. now that i'm older i read things other than capeshit. the cape genre is schlock at this point. it has been schlock for quite some time. but worst of all are batman, superman and captain america because those characters are so old. they've lost the value of being "iconic" and are now obsolete or vestigial. batman and superman aren't special because they're batman or superman. they're simply popular because our culture has been saturated with their merchandise

>were you the same person claiming that everyone wants to get into it, but just are barred from it?
no. i am a different person. i take issue with your position that people should read 900 fucking issues of something about one single character, when the writing isn't even that great and the art is heavily dated.

>>91104354
this

no one learns biology by starting with molecular physics

>>91102881
lol so you started with algebra before learning your multiplications tables?

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>all these peoples ITT who see "The West" as "AMERICA! (and a few other countries)"

>>91104581
Is that a WW1 comic?

I really enjoyed reading Le Feu, although I enjoy pretty much of all of the soldier-authors the Great War created: Wilfred Owens, Junger, and my favorite author of all time Remarque.

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>>91099001
It's a ages old tradition to meme about the death of the comic industry. 90s fags had better justifications, however.

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>>91105422