Who is more broken/powerful, Azathoth or the Empty Hand?

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>>91090328
Azathoth is the creator of all and nothing in the same time. It stands on the same level like the One-Above-All and the Presence.

1. The universe is contingent on Azathoth's dream-state and Azathoth is contingent on the universe and thus contingent on its own dream-state. Azathoth is dreaming the universe and it is the universe and thus it is its own dream.

2. Azathoth is mindless and non-rational and passively pursues its "goals" in the same way that a ball "desires" to roll down a hill.

3. Also like a ball rolling down a hill, Azathoth's impetus is to follow the path of least resistance to the point of lowest order and energy. That is, Azathoth's impetus is to cease to exist. Since Azathoth and the universe are contingent on each other, this means the universe will also cease to exist.

4. Azathoth is prevented from realizing this impetus by the outer gods who want to exist. They maintain its dreamstate knowing that if it woke up all realities and unrealities would immediately terminate.

5. Instead, Azathoth attains a vicarious annihilation by imbuing his impetus on all living things. Azathoth is the urge to kill and destroy and consume past our means, but also to reproduce because more growth means more death. Reality is Azathoth's temple and every atom within it worships Azathoth.

Everything that's ever happened is just an emergent property of God's eternal self-mutilation.

The Empty Hand stands no chance

>>91090670
The best way to imagine Azthoth is that it is a malignant reality.

>>91090328
Can't the Empty hand break realities and can literally exist anywhere he wants too even other multiverses which he's already destroyed

>>91090953
What's the Empty hands power set?

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>>91091046

>>91091071
He is the villain at the end of the story.

>>91091136
So they're both unkillable?

>>91091189
Kinda. But Azathoth is a level above him. Azathoth is allpowerful. Should it ever awaken everything would cease to be. Also Azathoth is less a villain and more... everything and beyond? He is the dreamer and the dream. Nothing exists but Azathoth.

>>91091281
Oh I guess Azathoty would win but Empty can exist without reality or a set universe so would he just wake him up

>>91091430
Azathoth is solipsistic god. It is not our universe or any universe it is all. The Dreamer of all.
Azathoth cannot be destroyed, as the concept of destruction, just like all others, exists only in its unfathomable mind

>>91091517
That's the problem with incomprehensible forces you can't have a power level fight since by definition they can't be killed and represent abstract forces beyond understanding

>>91091517
If he can't be destroyed he can be corrupted and if there's anything Enpty hand can do is corrupt reality itself

>>91091752
That is what the Outer Gods are doing. Keeping it at sleep.
You cannot corrupt something that has no identity or awareness. Meaning the empty Hand cannot influence Azathoth to act in his plans. ( Except waking him and so destroying everything)
When I wrote that Azathoth is malignant reality I did not meant a alternate reality but reality that can not be subsided. Azathoth permanently exists and is the underlying fabric from which the current universe and all possible universes (past and future included) spring from as temporary nodes of stability.

>>91091717
True. You cannot make a fight between God and Azathoth because they are both allpowerfull.

>>91091920
Exactly all powerful forces can't be killed most of the time so imaginary battles are impossible plus if Azathoth ever woke up than he and everything ceases so it would be best for Empty not to fuck with him if he wants to actually do shit

Here's the thing: Azathoth originated in fiction, and while he is reality, he's still a malignant entity nonetheless; and Empty Hand is basically the meta manifestation of the villain at the end of the story that is always going to exist as long as fiction exists, so they're not exactly the same, but rather parallels.

The Thought Robot still beats both, and creates a new reality if necessary.

The concept of Empty Hand is great and all, but it kinda bothers me that we may have to wait decades before seeing anything done about him, since his very nature implies that he'll only get involved at the end of the story, meaning when DC realizes that they're going under for whatever reason and the comic division is getting shut down.

Or they just pull a bait-and-switch and we see him at an event a couple of years from now, and he ends up just being sealed because unkillable and shit.

It's pretty unlikely, but I really want Marvel and DC to work in tandem again for the event against the First Firmament.

Neither can win. Empty Hand is dependent on the narrative continuing, if he wins he also loses.

By Anons description of Azathoth, by waking he also unravels himself, thus losing.

>>91090328
I'd say the empty hand. As powerful as azathoth is, he exists as a fictional deity, susceptible to a being that waits at the end of all stories.

>>91091281
The empty hand is what awaits after everything has ceased to be. Like the hand of a reader that is left empty after they are done with the story.

>>91090670
What if a really powerful reality bender transports all of reality outside of Azathoth's dream, though, or just makes a copy of it after escaping from the dream.

Plus, if he's only a universe, that'll just mean that the multiverse and omniverse would keep on existing if he woke up.

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>DC actually has a kinda Azathoth character in the Decreator.

>>91092898
As a said Azathoth is a solipsistic god, nothing but it exists. The Blind Idiot God is not a universe, it is THE universe. All of existence is part of its dream, there is nothing outside Azathoth's dreams. Azathoth is not a physical being, force or place. The Almighty Idiot is not Jim Jaspers that you can escape.
The ruler of the Outer Gods is boundless above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level. Azathoth is truly infinite.


>>91092859
>I'd say the empty hand. As powerful as azathoth is, he exists as a fictional deity, susceptible to a being that waits at the end of all stories.

Problem is that Azathoth is the creator-god in a cosmic horror setting. The narrative works for it.

>>91093376
>The ruler of the Outer Gods is boundless above absolutely everything
What about Yog-Sothoth?

>>91093541
Azathoth is the Father, Nyarlathotep is the son and Iok-Sotot is the Holy Spirit.

>>91093648
To be honest a lot of what you've said in this thread (Assuming you're the same guy) sounds like complete wank, and doesn't really fit with what little I've read of Lovecraft.

So, you got, like, some citations or something?

Unlike all the others, Nyarlathotep is evil and wants to wake the old man up. It is his master plan.

>>91092454
But the Thought-Robot is Demonbane who is in turn part of Azathoth.

>>91093775
The wiki implies Azathoth is the progenitor of the other Cthulu-esc entities, but this nonsense about it being the entirety of creation is fanfiction written after the fact.

>>91093775
lovecraft himself actually didnt flesh out the mythos of the gods that much in his stories, they usually only appeared by very brief mention, but the general consensus is that Azathoth is sort of the one above all when it comes to the mythos.

>>91093775
Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,

Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,

But only Chaos, without form or place.

Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered

Things he had dreamed but could not understand, While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered

In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,

Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining

Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law. “I am His Messenger,” the daemon said,

As in contempt he struck his Master’s head.
Of course you are right that this Azathoth is a interpretation of Lovecraft's Azathoth because he liked to keep everything vague. There is no definite Azathoth. Nothing of Lovecraft creations is definite.
Personally I liked Ligotti's interpretation of Azathoth which this is I am presenting. But this interpretation is viable as the one Lovecraft imagined.
I always imagined Azathoth as a parody of the christain god. For me the Blind Idiot God is the very picture of the purposeless, mindless, yet all-powerful reality of materialistic thought.

>>91091517
Ah but therein lies the recursive trap, my friend! For wherein do his ideas spring? Unknowable and infinite? Sure, but is he constrained by the problem of which came first, the chicken, the egg, or the idea of both chickens and eggs? His dream contains destruction, but how can you be certain he isn't dreaming of something that actually exists outside his dream? How do we know the dream itself isn't a shadowy mental realm devised in however many jumbled parts from real things? Maybe he himself is the mere fantasy of something else, even a relatively insignificant man sitting at his type writer.

>>91093956
Yes but this is Lovecraft we're talking about. It's possible the person was merely drunk, drugged, or just plain insane. That "cracked flute" seems a tad suspicious if you ask me.

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>>91094171
>see pic part 1

>>91094121
You think too logical. Could an allpowerful entity create a weight that it could not lift? Yes. Could it lift it? YES.

Also Azathoth is not real. But it represents the entropic decay of the universe.

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>>91094171
> pic part 2

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>>91094398
You, anon, have fallen for the classic blunder of believing that the Old Ones running the simulation of the universe actually know what they're doing. They're government funded, you nit. Half of their "insulation" is just wrapping the wires in an extra layer of duct tape. If you open your eyes and actually study the world around you you'll see all the flaws in the matrix, all the corners they've had to cut. Sure you'll start to go mad as your puny mind struggles to comprehend the errors in their programming code and they'll eventually "correct" you by copy-pasting over you with a random tentacle horror from their porn folder, but at least you'll have actually learned something before you're overwritten.

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>>91094789
Strive for your next breath. Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one. Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

And just where do your capacities come from? Why do you always go where I want and do what I say?

Perhaps you're just running a fool's errand, doing everything as I've planned, never able to change your course. You would do well to believe that I know the outcome of your battle with the Pfhor already, just as I can decipher the chaotic motion of gas molecules in the clouds of Tau Ceti IV.

Or, perhaps, that is not the case.

Perhaps, you are doing what you were meant to do. Your human mentality screams for vengeance and thrives on the violence that you say you can hardly endure. Your father told you as a child to always fight with honor, but to always fight. Do you care about honor, or do you use honor as an excuse? An excuse to exist in a violent world.

Organic beings are constantly fighting for life. Every breath, every motion brings you one instant closer to your death. With that kind of heritage and destiny, how can you deny yourself? How can you expect yourself to give up violence?

It is your nature.

Do you feel free?

Soon, you will be going farther afield.

Does the distance one travels from center make one more free to move?

No. Freedom has two parts: potential and resolution; as metaphor has two parts: form and interpretation. Of course, the two are intertwined. Metaphor lines the road to freedom, as symbols and words are the bricks and mortar of meaning. Freedom is being the bricoleur, the mason.

>>91094398
No no, stupid. See what happens is God creates a weight he cannot lift - AND THEN HE MOVES THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE DOWN A SEVERAL FEET TO GIVE THE ILLUSION OF LIFTING IT. Read a copy of the real bible sometime where God clearly says, "There's a sucker born every minute."

>>91093775

Most of Lovecraft mythos is adopted fanfiction that's constantly in a state of change.

Comics operate in the same way. The only difference is that everyone disagrees on what the "true" canon is. Everyone has their favorite writer or portrayal or arc, and everything not related to that also technically fanfiction.

I love Azathoth's idea. The mindless creator. What a image. Allpowerful yet witout any understanding what it does.

>>91095609
You are wrong, for there is another, greater being known as N'yerGluh-zob the Homeless who slithers through the unknown chaotic mass beyond existence in his self-soiled brown trenchcoat. He sidles up to Azathoth's slumbering form, puckers his crusted lips near an ear analog, and whispers, "Penis penis penis penis penis."

And thus does our reality make a little more sense. Seriously, it does.