Let's discuss superheroes

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Superheroes at their core are a genre of Action fiction so at the baseline the action in them should be real good or there should be a good reason why it is not.

Action Adventure Motion Emotion and Character

>>90956442
>Superheroes at their core are a genre of Action fiction so at the baseline the action in them should be real good or there should be a good reason why it is not.
I fucking wish. The action is the whole reason Ellis' recent Marvel stuff has been some of my favorites.

I think a lot of this is us paying for what were the perceived sins of the 90s.

Prior and into the 90s Superhero comics could handle and balance action, the plots were simpler or the really good ones had amazing action and the plots held it up too.

Then the crash happens, a lot of factors and beliefs and stuff coalesces into a modern era of the Writer and the Art in a lot of mainstream comics lost and still doesn't have the big emotional moments it is more about plot complexity and ironic detachment and I just want simple stories with great characters who know how to move around a page that make me feel something.

>>90956664
Wasn't really a fan of that Moon Knight stuff, the American stuff that is holding that part of it up for me right now is Copra and Copra

The action tends to be much better and more suspenseful in manga. I can't remember the last time I saw superman get in a fist fight and gave a shit about what happened.

>>90957107
This is 100% what is missing, even with most of the stuff people will call good action it lacks that most crucial piece.

>>90957107
>>90957166
Well manga decompress stories by an insane amount as an industry standard so they have more pages to spend by default on extended action scenes. The only way American capeshit or American comics in general could match that is with writers doing wafer thin plots and not many writers care to do that.

>>90957232
I think it is more complex than that, you don't need 30 more pages to make people give a shit about stakes and actually feel something on your pages.

>You are right All for One, there's so much...so much we heroes have to protect! And that's why we don't lose
All Might is the hero we need

>Embrace the silly subject matter
>Eucatastrophe feels good
>Fight scenes are the meat and potatoes
>Life in general isn't all that edgy

>>90957335
Not even /a/ but Manga in objectively superior to Western comics. I say this as someone who loves western stuff.

>>90957335
>where the pacing is atrocious and the characters have no depth and scream for no goddamn reason all the time
why emphasize this when big 2 comics are pretty much that with extra politics by idiots?

>>90957422
>This generic garbage is better than this generic garbage

Lemme guess, their ebin business practices make them better, right? Disregarding the fact that mangaka are all on food stamps because their slave driver industry can't pay a mortgage.

>>90957335
"What lessons could American cape stuff learn from Jap cape stuff?" is a legitimate question to ask and do not imply superiority.

>>90957367
>It's not edgy therefore it's good

Yes because hypersexualized teenagers are nowhere as equally degenerate

Kill yourself

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>>90957422
>capeshit
>all of western comics

>>90957279
That's probably because American cape shit the question tend's to be who has the moral high ground at the rather who's won after a hard fought battle.

>>90957422
>Manga in objectively superior to Western comics
k sur whateva m8

>>90957546
>>90957505
>seriously responding to someone deliberately breaking the global rules

It probably just is a difference in a too hallowed take on the subject matter where as individual comic series in Japan are not beholden to continuity or fan expectations of characters to the same degree.

They can take a more laissez faire attitude with it and treat it seriously in the correct ways.

>>90957422
Please tell me you're joking. Nobody could be this retarded

>>90957584
It's an interesting question faggot.

>>90956412
What we already know. That Jap shit is free of America's baggage.

AllMight is a great Superman take off precisely because he's not Superman.

But Big 2 American Capeshit isn't going to do that.
Y'know unless it's a mini or some shit.

>>90957622
I didn't comment on the merit of the question.

>>90957546
>LEGITIMATE QUESTION GAIZ11!1!

I've been here long enough to know the difference between a legitimate question and weeb faggots trying to get away with posting their bullshit on here because the mods are lazy dipshits who can't enforce dick.

Americans don't need to learn anything from Japan. They're fanbase stateside is exponentially higher than the manga fanbase because normies read comics and only a small minority of neckbeards read manga. Manga has no presence in America and never will.

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>>90957642
The way that series goes deep on the Superhero history is impressive.

It just uses it all as set dressing to leave room for the characters and emotional content.

>>90956412
Personally i feel it could learn about endings.
I mean even long running mangas end, and the things fathers read are different than what their sons read. While west plays a game of telephone with the same characters, desperate to hold onto character popularity rather than story.
I guess you can claim kaimen rider & setai are like that and i guess you'd be partially right but i think a more apt comparison would be something like 'ER' where cast, stories and styles change.
but i'm probably in the minority feeling that way.
>>90957335
>having such an inferiority complex that you think an innocent question about what lessons can be learned from something else is an attack.
Shit an-
>sage in the text box
ah i fell for bait

>>90957706
You're the only one not being conducive to conversation about comic industry practices you goddamn idiot.

>>90957367
>Fight scenes are the meat and potatoes

What is Bleach

What is Naruto and One Piece being so cluttered that you can't tell what the fuck is happening

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All the Amazing Bronze Age bits fused with everything else.


>>90957747
You find One Piece hard to read? That is the first time I have heard that.

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>>90957320
When it gets animated I'm going to cream my pants

>>90957715
>The way that series goes deep on the Superhero history is impressive.
I find that shit to be the biggest waste of time in manga. Everyone gets big extended backstories was a way of having psuedo-depth. That's a real red flag for me in manga.

>>90957794
We I find One Piece hella terrible to look at too. If there's one thing the West had over the east its constructing a page because I have that problem with what a lot manga do actually.

>>90957525
Gotta suffer for your art m8

Watch Shirobako

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>>90957642
It feels like a lovesong to the superhero genre

>>90957706
>normies read comics
?

>Ultraman Manga
It's good, but the actual toku is better. Usually

>>90957876
Worldbuilding and Character motivation are generally not bad things, can be bad if done too much or poorly sure.

But I don't think MHA or One Piece are examples of those.

Also I would rather people experiment with the page design, as long as my eye follows it it can lead to some really amazing stuff.

>>90957747
Bleach was doomed to be a clusterfuck after Aizen

But One Piece and Naruto are simple enough for my 12 year old daughter to comprehend

>>90956412
The series must always end with you fighting a dark mirror version of yourself

MUH BROTHER!!! This whole conflict was a family feud the entire time! MUH BROOOOOOOTHAH!!!

Further vindication that actual crime fighting can be put on the backburner for the sake of petulant in-fighting

Haha! Now I have ALL OF THE POWERS!

You must be under 22 to not job like crazy.

This climactic fight will last for about a year and a half.

>>90957232
>Well manga decompress stories by an insane amount as an industry standard
Bendis.

>>90956412
Keep the same writing staff the whole time.

Most Shonen series aren't decompressed since that term refers to a change from an old way of doing it to a new one.

I guess OPM would be one because it takes that general formula and then slows it down even beyond that

>>90957747
Naruto was shit though, full of retcons, inconsistences, plot holes, etc. Just because it sold good doesn't mean is good, it also doesn´t mean is the norm

>>90957974
I don't think One Piece is one of those that ever does it and I drop MHA pretty early on. But I really think my problem stems from the decompression overall.

I love experimental pages but I've only seen anything good like that from the west.

>>90958088
And Bendis is shit.

>>90958132
>that term refers to a change from an old way of doing it to a new one.
What?

>>90957583
>rather who's won after a hard fought battle.

That goes back to the modern shonen action stuff, since Dragonball, really borrowing from sports manga. Where the story and action are all about growth and development, even if there are setbacks along the way.

>>90958222
A style of story telling becomes decompressed as a change from a style that was not.

Shonen comics did not become more drawn out in how they are allowed to depict action and take their time, that has been built into them since the beginning.

At least it is not the same way people talk about decompression in relation to American comics.

>>90958290
>story telling becomes decompressed as a change from a style that was not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompression_(comics)

>>90957876
In One Piece's case one Mangaka was shocked that Oda could get away with Luffy's eyes being drawn like that

The Artstyle isn't everyones flavour and if One Piece wasn't as Iconic as it was it wouldn't have gotten away with it

>>90958387
I am not sure it works like that.

It became popular because of that style not in spite of it.

>>90958387
I wasn't talking about the art style I was talking about how the pages are designed.

>>90957232
>Well manga decompress stories by an insane amount as an industry standard
You'd do that too if you had to churn out 21 pages every week without breaks, though.

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>>90958196
When I say experimental it doesn't have to mean big and expressive things sometimes it is just small things I don't see in Western art which sure may be because of space constraints.

Stuff on angles
Insert panels
flowing action

I just don't get enough of it outside of WSJ

>>90957706
>They're fanbase stateside is exponentially higher than the manga fanbase because normies read comics
The most popular comic in America probably pulls 100,000 at most. A One Piece volume pulls over a million, and in a country with a third of the population. If we were arguing over sales and fanbases then manga does way better than comics in their respective countries. It doesn't matter how manga does state-side because there isn't any significant attempts at appealing to the west anyways.

>>90958583
As much as he was trolling, he also did specifically mention Manga as sold in America which I don't have good numbers on.

>>90958569
I miss that One Piece style, now is tiny as fuck panels with big ass texts

>>90957320
All For One was right.

>>90956412
/a/ must really suck if you guys keep coming here to make threads.

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>>90958665
>mfw

I feels like when it comics to storytelling, American artists are really backwards compared to the rest of the world.
Japanese artists are way better at decompression and Franco-Belguim artists are way better at concision.

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>weebshit allowed on /co/ because it's vaguely based on superheroes
>meanwhile mentioning western comics in the MHA thread gets you deleted

Really makes u think

>>90958603
Start with comichron

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http://imgur.com/a/WBf07

>>90958723
>Japanese artists are way better at decompression
That's nothing to be proud of.

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Boku no hero, ultraman and kamen rider do what super heroes used to do. Actually be heroes and not just mouth pieces.

>>90958767
It is.
It's a respectable form of storytelling.

>>90958603
Your average top selling manga volume sells about 50,000 units. However the mtrics I saw seem to imply those are direct sales, and those are volumes at 15 to 20 dollars a pop.

Compared to the diamond numbers, which track units sold to *dealers* (that could very well be collecting dust on the shelves) and tend not to be sold for over $5.

So comparing the numbers is really difficult.

>>90958767
Decompression done right is great. It's why it got so popular.

Decompression done wrong can be disastrous, though. Those infinite beat panels.

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>>90958607
I like where it has gone a whole bunch by my favorite Era of One Piece is def the style from Alabasta through Enies Lobby

>>90958848
Also doesn't account for people like me who spend the 25 a year for WSJ and that is all we need to pay for it.

>>90956412
>What lessons could American cape stuff learn from Jap cape stuff?

It's already learned not to make every MC a crying little pussy

Its learned not to make rivals needlessly petty and immune to any consequences whatsoever

It's learned not to make women completely disposable

It's learned that you need to make everything the opposite of what Japan does because Japanese characters are the most unlikeable one-note personalities ever put to ink

>>90958817
Go away Bendis.

>>90958850
Done wrong is all decompression all the time which a lot of manga are guilty of.

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>>90958815
Whatever you say, Kenzaki

>>90957876
The West also has better colorists. As a rule of thumb. Some of the Eastern ones are great, but their industry standard is black and white, while ours is color. So of course since we have more colorists we also have the better ones.

>>90958723
>American artists are really backwards compared to the rest of the world.
I'd say it's the industry as a whole not just on the artists.

Comics aren't seen as acceptable here compared to either, they're labeled a weird niche. Japan targets all age gender/age groups so you get magazines that are full of comics printed on cheap paper that are meant to be disposed of and recycled and you can just buy the volumes of what you like later.

>>90958912
Bendis used to be a good writer.

>>90958912
I honestly can't tell if you are trolling or not.

Like you understand right that according to the stated definition of Decompression in this thread by Wikipedia, comics you like from the 70s and 80s are decompressed compared to their earlier contemporaries.

Bendis wasn't the first guy to slow down the pace of his books.

Simonson was doing it, Miller was doing it Claremont was doing it.

People have been doing it for as long as they saw the use in doing it.

>>90958766
I fucking hate bakugo so much

>>90958724
/a/ has a very strict board culture, /co/'s whole thing is that everything is okay until a janitor or mod gets mad

>>90958815
>everything I know about western comics came from Marvel

You're so gay

>>90958936
>western colorists
>good

>>90958948
That isn't really modern comics fault, you only get to that point if you grow an audience successfully and to a mass media scale when you are starting out and hold onto them.

>>90958948
You can probably blame the CCA nuking just about every genre except cape and ultra-safe stuff like Archie for murrican comics being that much more niche than other countries

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>>90958859
Fight sequences are still well done, though. This is from the latest tankobon. Oda has an issue of including too much in panels not involving 1v1 fights, is what I think.

>>90958926
I really need to watch the 60fps blade some day.

>>90958974
>Simonson was doing it
Oh man I just think of that slow build up the first few issues of Thor where every issue had at least one page dedicated to DOOM

It would great if the mods did their jobs.

>>90958974
Where the hell did I say decompression was new? And I never said it was something that writers should never do I said pretty specifically that decompression is bad when its over done. There are other ways decompression can be done poorly too of course.

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I like how villains are actually punished in western stories

Manga villains can rape, torture, steal, kidnap, assault, murder, and mindfuck all they like and will get away with a pat on the head after saying "I-I-I was soooo lonely and misunderstood so I lashed out!"

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>>90958993
Laughing crying emoji

>>90958569
>>90958859
Eh, that's not very experimental. And hell I never knocked One Piece for it's fight scenes.

>>90959086
>I like how villains are actually punished in western stories

By staying around for decades because they're corporate IPs and need to remain in view for toys, video games, television, and movies?

>>90959034
>no backgrounds

Wew lad

>>90959086
Wow look at this liar

>>90959086
What?

Every superhero has a rogue gallery that refuses to be locked up and just comes back with no real punishment.

Manga villains usually die at the end since their stories are done and over with.

>>90959086
What the fuck world do you live in? Most manga villains that do that get fucking killed and they actually stay dead too.

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Mahvel and DC are too whipped by people that don't by their comics to ever do anything like this.

>>90958724
/co/ is very liberal.

And as such believes everyone deserves inclusion. So shitposters from all over the website are free to make everything suck.

Think the difference between Japan and Sweden.

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>>90957642
Even more cynical takes on the genera still try to work off why Superheroes are so popular, and still remembers to balance those things with a healthy dose of optimism.

S2 never. Still mad.

>>90959086
Who does this other than Naruto? And One Piece? And Bleach? And Dragon Ball Z?

>>90959062
its comic related though

>>90959157
>>90959168
>>90959179
You guys are too easy

>>90958985
Maybe this thread should fuck off there then seeing how it's clearly the better board.

>>90959155
Same as in the Alabasta pages he showed. It's a way Oda has of taking away background when doing fights so that your attention is not detracted.

His backgrounds are usually hyper detailed.

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>>90959155
Unless you're thing is doing scenery porn that's fine. If action continues to take place in an established location you don't need to draw the background into every panel

>>90959155
this is also a nonsensical complaint

>>90958984
Honestly why I dropped the manga

>>90959086
>Villains in capecomics
>Punished
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
At least in Manga they die most of the time

>>90959197
No its not. Capeshit is a genre and doesn't belong to one medium exclusively.

>>90959062
We are talking comics, though. Unless you want to argue manga are not comics or that comparing them to American comics is outside the boundaries of /co/.

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>>90958886
Nah. Female manga characters are usually better written. Though the Batgirls are pretty great.

>>90958984
>>90959245
Baron of explosions is fucking great, are you gay?

>>90959252
American and Japanese comics are not separate mediums

>>90959268
>Index
>good writing

what are good american action comics rn?

i can never get into manga even if it sounds cool like that x-men rip off people always post

>>90959086
U wot bruv? Manga villains get fucking murked

>>90959252
see >>90957736

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>>90959126
Experimental is probably the wrong word, it just flows and works so well that it reads as different from most of the stuff I see when it comes to action these days.

>>90959285
Maybe so, but this is a western comics board. Not /a/.

>>90957794

I sometimes have a problem with reading one piece like that too. I usually only notice reading pages out of context though.

>>90958997
I'm including everyone from France on towards America there. I'm not sure if artists like Stjepan Sejic counts though. Where does he live?

>>90959331
Copra

>>90959331
Right now as in currently ongoing? Gee I don't even know.

>>90959222
Does anyone have a modern example of a fight scene like this?

They used to be pretty common with Jack, who loved to do The Thing fight scenes, but nowadays I rarely see them.

>>90959278
It's just a refugee shitposter.

>>90959361
And this thread is about Western comics and you should only have a problem with it if you find them perfect and without flaws that can be improved upon.

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>>90959308
Index? No

Railgun? Hell yes

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Legit question: Does Japan even do super hero themed Villain manga? Villain ongoing comics usually come out by the dozen in America get I honestly have not seen a manga starring a cape-themed villain.

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>>90959222

They both do this, but a page full of exposition is just boner killer.
Space that shit out.

>>90959378
"Like this" as in a beat by beat action sequence?

>>90959426
Man I wish IDW had a better option to read that stuff, something more like those EXTRA THICK Usagi Yojimbo collections instead of their 7 issue $50 hardcovers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBTe8Sz7uC8

I don't get all the rage, superheroes are cool in general

>>90959480
That would be what I'm looking for, not necessarily on a 3 by 3 grid, though.

>>90959423
>Villian wank rags

This is why DC and Marvel have been going to shit

>>90959222
There is a really good bit in the Animatrix special features of all places that has Todd McFarlane talking about motion in Anime

And he says that in the West they have a tendency when doing Superman or Spider-Man to always be drawing the buildings behind them because they don't have confidence in the readers if they establish him flying that he is still doing that in a single panel from that.

That was in 2001 makes me laugh in how true it still is.

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>>90959371

i already read Copra.

i was hype for JrJr Suicide Squad but so far it's let me down with action

>>90959423
Can't remember the name of it, and it was a comedy, but there's one about this guy who applies for a henchman position to support his large family of younger brothers and sisters. Immediately signs up for a special division where they test all their new tech and other stuff because he gets a huge pay bonus. Gets him assigned to one of their elites as well. I liked it.

>>90959034
manga fights are generally terrible

however you have great action like DBZ

>>90959567
Like for me right now it is Copra and WSJ and whatever small press stuff or reprint catches my eye.

>>90959542
You better not be dissing the original Suicide Squad or Thunderbolts, anon.

Western comics are very niche and overpriced

There's just no cultural hunger for it

>>90959532
Not many writers or artists have the structural discipline to put together action like that anymore

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>>90959532
I can think of a couple.

>>90959584
All Rounder Meguru

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>>90959600
and a bunch of reading into older stuff that will probably never get translated.

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>>90959606
>>90959600
Don't be silly.

>>90959591

imma get that WSJ sub one of these days just because it's such a good deal .

>>90959596
Well it is more that hunger is being satisfied films so the comics don't need to provide it and can be a Very Special Episode of the week.

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>>90959645

>>90959338
Sometimes yes, sometimes not
Dragon Ball: villain who comited multiple genocides regrets nothing, is never punished and gets to fuck and marry hot rich woman

>>90957619

Name a big 2 DC/Marvel main comic that's any good. Captain Yaass? Supercuck?

>>90959606
>>90959645
Now this is weird maybe it is just because I read too much action but this comes off as slow and trudging to me and as such becomes rather boring.

>>90959222
>>90959225
>a colored background providing contrast to the other colored characters so the eye doesn't have to struggle to identify anything
>compared to everything being in black and white so you have to actively look to differentiate between people and effects

Come on guys

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>>90959683

>>90959593
No I'm dissing the influx of shit like, Harley Quinn as the 4th pillar of DC, Dan Slott's Saga of the Superior Octavius, the shit that creates the calls for Poison Ivy to get an ongoing or a 12-issue mini for Bane.

That kind of dull drek

>>90959596
*American comics

>>90959711
Focus on things like background especially on parts of series where that is not the focus is a nonsensical complaint and a distraction from what the comic is doing.

It is lazy.


>>90959700
Ultimates 2 is really good right now, but not for reasons of this thread, action isn't bad tho

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>>90959268
>Female manga characters are usually better written.

Name ten.

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>>90959532
And people have the guts to say Quitely sucks. Makes you think, huh?

>>90959645
>not many

>>90959278
He's a textbook sue.

>>90959765
that isn't the Quitely I would go for but when he is really trying hell yeah.

>>90959765
It is very multicultural of you to read a comic book meant for ants.

>>90959268
you know damn well thats not true

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>>90959719
>>90959705
This is ideal visual storytelling. You may not like it but this is what peak comic looks like.

>>90957422
people like you make me sad to admit i like manga better than US comics
>>90958766
>Considering that
I kinda hope it palys out like that, but i feel like she would get more face time if that was the case.

>>90959410
lol

>>90959773
There are more artists in the industry with actual chops than there are who are complete hacks.

>>90959818
Why, thank you. Couldn't find a bigger version and since all we cared about was the action sequence and not the text I said "fuck it".

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>>90959815
I would go for this to show off Quitely being a master of space and motion

>>90959835
What kind of bullshit statement is that supposed to be?

>>90959861
>kinda hope it palys out like that, but i feel like she would get more face time if that was the case.
You know damn well there's no fucking way any of that's gonna happen.

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The perspective in this always knocks my socks off.

>>90959893

i hate when manga has multiple "steps" in one giant panel during fights

it never comes across as kinetic as intended

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Remember kids, anime is allowed on every board because way back long ago, 4chan was ONLY a single anime board!

Make sure to bring up this little tidbit every time you're challenged! It's important to emphasize how we must continue to abide by this unwritten rule even after this website has transformed into an entirely different community since 2003!

Also, fuck ponies! They're not cartoons. But anime is because I said so!

>>90958766
fuckind end yourself

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How my comics move is generally more important to me than what they say.

Look at the way this is laid out and weep!

>>90959893
whew, that page

>>90959596
>Western comics are very niche and overpriced
So is mango
>There's just no cultural hunger for it
Same. Watch the GitS movie completely tank opening weekend.

>>90959893
It's an old Twitter meme. I don't know why >>90959835 brought it up.

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>>90959963
Never gonna get to read this stuff in English

>>90959893
>What kind of bullshit statement is that supposed to be?
It's supposed to be slow that's the type of scene it is which leads into the conclusion of the comic. And the artist really does an excellent job with this scene.

>>90959893
>>90959915
Now this is good shit.
>>90959963
Is this good? Never even heard of it but this spread alone makes me want to pick it up.

>>90960045
It doesn't exist in print except for trades from decades ago in Japan

>>90959893
>>90959915
I am not a big fan of these pages at all.

>>90959764
Please. Naming even one is already European extreme mode.

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>>90959086
Daily reminder that he got away with everything.

>>90958815
Kamen Riders don't really fight crime or anything like that. They just fight the evil organization that had a hand (accidental or by design) in creating them.

>>90960129

Isn't he a chick now or something?

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Another thing a lot of the time I think plots in Western Superhero comics aren't typically designed with Action as the solution to them.

This is because if you are a writer they probably want to have some impact on the conclusion beyond make this look amazing.

>>90956412
No femi-nazi
No political correctness

Much action

>>90959764
>Yukino
>The Major
>Asuka
>Nami
>Riza
>Akane
>San
>Misaka
>Lain
>Fuu

>>90960283
who???

>>90960164
Don't gender Orochimaru

>>90956412
>Lessons from Japan

Don't end up like shonen.

Seriously. Manga covers more genres than the west but within those genres there's extremely little variation. Japan is the only country that's so much a hive-mind that demographics ARE genres to them. No one else turns "10-18" into a genre.

Cape comics>>>Shonen. You have team books, cosmic books, street level books, quirky cute girl books, grim avenger books, dense crossover mythology books.

Shonen just has shonen, just the same bundle of cliches repackaged again and again. The same giant food loving manchildren with dreams of being the strongest/hokage/king of the pirates/guy who eats his ultimate course/All-might 2.0. The same fetishization of youthful bloodshed and "I can't give up..my nakama needs me..." that Japan grabbed onto in WW2 with both hands and has never let go of.

There's a reason cape comics aren't taking anything form Shonen and a reason why Shonen is taking as much as they can from capes with MHA/Tiger and Bunny/Samurai Flamenco.

>>90959764
Ok I'll try. Seriousy. If you disagree do tell me but I'm really gonna do my best. I have very little manga knowledge.
>Misato Katsuragi
>Yuki Nagato
>Kaoru Kamiya
>Anna Kyoyama
>Kagura (Gintama)
>Tsukuyo (Gintama)
>Bulma
>Casca (pre-retardation)
>Biscuit Krueger
>Cheadle Yorkshire

>>90960325
...sasuga, pleb

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>>90960283
>Asuka

Holy shit

>>90959700
>He doesn't like Supersons
I'm so sorry for you.

>>90957572
>edgy response to prove edge isn't bad

right back at you

>>90957422

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA

And I like manga.

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Since this devolved into a storytelling thread, I want to remember everyone that Métal Hurlant had the greatest panelling ever made.

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>>90960283
>Yukino
>Asuka
>Akane

>>90960344
>Shonen just has shonen, just the same bundle of cliches repackaged again and again.

How do you say this after remarking on all the surprising different genres of superhero comics with a straight face?

>>90957107
I feel the same a about manga, I can't even tell if a blow is meaningful or not during the fights

>>90960344
>Shounen is a genre

0/10

Shiki, Death Note, Detective Conan, Gurren Lagann, Your Lie in April, and Nozaki-kun are all shounen faggot

>>90959338
>>90959697
>>90959086
Villains don't die in cape comics but they tend to actually be treated as reprehensible human beings unless they're X-men villians.

Even when they do "reform" and join the heroes they're treated with suspicion and have to prove that they're really a good guy. Plastic Man is only a criminal in his origin story but he carries his time as a crook like a cross. The Thunderbolts had to come clean to the public and Abner had to do jailtime for the team.

It's different in Shonen. In Shonen big murderous assholes are treated with kid gloves. "They're so brave, so misunderstood, if only we could be friends...."

Yu Yu Hakusho and Younger Toguro. Fist of the North Star and EVERYONE. DBZ and Vegeta and Buu. Naruto and Sasuke. Saint Seiya and EVERYONE not Hades or Deathmask Cancer, with particular notice given to the Mariners who were totally fine with flooding the world and killing everyone.

>>90959764
Oscar, Fujiko Mine, The Major, Revy, Genkai, Beatrice (Umineko), Ryoko, Jolyne Cujoh, Kei & Yuri, Lina Inverse, Kaname Chidori, Nami, Nico Robin, Lucy Heartfilia, Ezra Scarlet, Misa Hayase & Lynn Minmay to name a few.

If you go into shoujo manga then it's not even a contest. Only Western girls that compare are some of the DC heroines and villainesses.

>>90960534
Gurren Lagann isn't a shonen.

>>90960568
>Nami
>Robin
>Lucy
>Ezra
Haven't been well written in over 300 chapters, anon.

>>90959995
>>Western comics are very niche and overpriced
>So is mango

The is factually false. Especially the price part baka. And if GiTS does poorly it would have nothing to do with it being based off a manga, it would be for whatever reason some movies do well and some don't.

>>90960486
He's write though. There's manga with tons of different subjects with remarkably the same archetypes, the same tone, the same storytelling techniques. I was reading a manga about ballroom dancing recently and I had Hajime no Ippo flashbacks.

Why is it that every time I say this one /a/ I basically get a bunch of affirmative nods but on /co/ people will argue to the end of does that manga doesn't incestuously cling to one another's cliches.

>>90960666
I wasn't saying Shonen doesn't have cliches, I was saying to say that is why SUPERHERO comics are somehow above it is LUDICROUS

>>90960661
>Especially the price part baka
Bullshit. If I actually paid for my entire pull list every week I'd be too broke to do anything else.

>>90960633
Still got over 10 in there even excluding those.

>>90960666
A lot of shounen can fall into the same traps, Satan, but that doesn't mean they ALL do. As far as I know Steel Ball Run never fell into cliches and is a totally different beast to other Shounen like Eyeshield 21.

Same with cape comics. You can't say Superman For All Seasons is the same as Flex Mentallo even though they're both cape.

>>90960749
The response to this is that at the point SBR was coming out Jojo was no longer running in a technically Shonen magazine and was also monthly.

>>90960579
Yes it is

The target demographic is boys

>>90960749

inb4

>SBR
>shounen

>>90960774
Yes but it was an animated serie before a comic.

>>90960696
>>90960749
Oh, yeah its not fair to anyone to try to box them all in and compare the two.

>>90960666
Stories build on each other. It's life.

>>90960826
Again

The point isn't Shonen is bad unlike Superheroes because it is fueled by formula and cliches

The point is that they both are even if those formula and cliches are different.

>>90960534
It's such an inbred genre that anything that even peaks slightly above expectations is going to be an instant flavor of the month success. Look at Death Note getting a movie deal.

>Naw its okay here are a handful of obscure exceptions to the formula. Ignore the giant pool of regurgitated cliches bubbling over behind me.

There's a world of difference between something like Ultimates and Kurt Busiek Avengers, or between Snyder Batman and Tomasi Superman. I don't have to go to the extremes and pull out Grant Morrison Animal Man or Jonah Hex or Punisher or stuff from the far ends of the cape genre. You do however. You have to extend to the very ends to find stuff that breaks the mold.

>>90960579
>Muh Nakama
>Fetishized youthful bloodshed
>Bad guys accepted as members of team good guy and forgiven for being utter fucks
>Blue haired submissive waifu princess
>Muh Ki/Haki/Cosmo/life force/Spiral power

It's shonen.

>>90958241
except they don't, Dragon Ball don't give a fuck about philosophy or anything close as "who has the moral highgrounds".
Go read Batman vs Superman to see what is a hard fought battle where the winner might not be the righteous one.
The only manga where you can get close to this is Saint Seiya, and even there you have a clear "good side".

>>90960902
Shonen isn't a genre, it only mean "this comic has been published in a Japanese magazine who's demographic is the young male audience".

>>90960840
Its not very good building if they look at a crappy wall and then build another wall just as crappy.

>>90960875
>The point is that they both are even if those formula and cliches are different.
Well then no I that's not the case. Capeshit is actually pretty diverse.

>>90960818
Valid point

>>90961001
And so is shonen comics, the ways in which they are diverse is why different people read different versions they are still both built on formula and past ideas.

That is how art functions over time generally in a mode or style or from an individual magazine.

>>90960919
>>90958241

Cape comics have a long tradition of showing that its protagonists have feet of clay. Superman gets criticized by other characters in his book. The same for Batman and THE SPIDER-MENANCE and the X-men. Cape comics are also more comfortable having their characters toe the line on what is morally right or wrong.

Shonen characters don't have that kind of critical self-awareness. Spider-Man will fret about being seen as a freak and the JLA will fret over whether they do too much or too little for humanity but Luffy and the Straw Hats aren't going to sit down and talk about whether or not they're' doing the right thing and no one is going to call out Kenshiro for brutally exploding goons into paste while he gets misty eyed over "muh worthy opponents" like Souther.

>>90960987
My point is that Japan has transformed a demographic into a genre because they're culturally very homogeneous and collectivist.

You talk to a Japanese person and they won't mind telling you that they culturally value sameness and safety over exploration and risk. In many ways it makes their society the safest and most stable on Earth. But it's got its negative sides as well (like a suicide rate greater than the US homicide rate+suicide rate).

>>90960902
Shounen literally means "Young Male"

Shounen can be drama, suspense, action, horror, comedy, slice of life, or thriller

>>90960902
I don't remember those things happening in Baby Steps or Detective Conan.
>>90961124
You're a moron.

>>90961035
It might just be me but dude you are frustrating to talk to.

>>90961188
>You're a moron.
He seemed to make some good points to me.

Wow, didn't realize Haruhi Suzumiya was a battle shounen

Thanks /co/!

>>90960564
Saint Seiya was basically people learning that violence doesn't solve everything, that's why murderous people weren't looked down

>Cape Comics decide to really experiment and break the mold

Watchmen, Animal Man, Flex Mentallo, Transformers vs GI Joe, Ennis Punisher, Astro City, Sandman (Grant Morrison has an essay on why its a superhero comic).

>Shounen decides to really experiment and break the mold
Death Note. Detective Conan. Haruhi.

Are we seeing the problem now?

>>90958088
Bendis is fucking shit, anon.

>>90961283
>Haruhi.
Neither shonen nor a manga.

>>90961124
I (mostly) agrees with you, I'm just saying that your use of the word 'shonen' is incorrect and that many peoples will dismiss anything you say because of it.

>>90961283
I don't go to Shonen Comics for experimentation because I don't need to.

A lot of the experimentation in Cape comics comes out of the strangehold they have had over the market and individual creators desires.


That is also a very questionable claim because you have the full dataset of Superhero comics and only the dataset of Shonen material that gets translated and comes over.

>>90961318
You know what we mean

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>>90956412
>what looks like a post-Iron Man boom Ultraman
looks boring.

>>90961318
It was cited by another anon as an example of a shounen book that breaks cliches.

>>90961342
It is incorrect but only in the most pushes-up-glasses ACTUALLY pedantic way.

Yes, it refers to the young male demographic. Yes, it literally means young boy. But everyone knows what you mean when you say "A Shonen book". The mental image is Bleach/Naruto/DBZ/Saint Seiya/Fist of the North Star/JoJo etc with maybe some outliers depending on your personal weeb power level.

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Western comics as a whole have bigger pages that gives them more leeway with the space and size of their panels. That's why similarly sized issues feel larger and more story-dense than manga chapters. When manga use larger panels it severely cuts down on the speed of the plot. Vagabond is probably my favorite thing I've read, period, but it also has 3 chapters straight of 2 guys staring at each other before they fight.

>>90961446
I tried to get into the Ultraman manga but I just couldn't.

Small hero.

Glasses wearing cool-guy rival.

MIB stuff.

High School kid hero who just wants to fit in and totally wasn't cribbed from Guyver along with the new arm blades Ultraman has.

I just want to see a giant Ultrabrother karate chop some monsters. Was that too much to ask for?

>>90961283
That shounen is more of a nomenclature for things aimed at people under 17 while capes have a wider age-audience?

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Speaking of mold breaking there is a pretty spectacular one running in WSJ right now

It doesn't fit into this thread because it is really action oriented but has been real good so far.

>>90959600

It isn't the writer's fault, it's the artist's.

There was a fairly large round table discussion with working artists, and most of them said their biggest gripe was when the writers tried to get them to do this. They would actively complain about action being translated within the panel or from panel to panel; this is because they don't like drawing fights. They'd rather draw other shit.

>>90961283
Wow, it's almost like an entire country's comicbooks have more variety than manga with a young male demographic.

>>90961573
That's...actually a really astute way of looking at it.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head. Capes target a wider age range.

>>90961548
That volume of Vagabond is my favorite single comic ever made that VIZBIG #9 is so perfect

>>90961593
Source?

>>90961590
I'm probably never gonna pick up a WSJ manga ever again.

>>90961613
>Cape comics
>The only American comics

Oh you. That's like saying the only Japanese television is soap operas.

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>>90961618
I always feel sad that none of the pictures I post online have the same clarity and resolution of the actual volumes. I'll post more though just because I love the art.

>>90961616
It is rare Superhero comics are aiming for someone older than 17.

Very rare.

>>90961699
Bullshit, dude. The majority of capeshit readers are grown ass men and have been since the 90s.

>>90961283
Comics will never create anything as beautiful as Otoyomegatari or as realistic as Natsu no Zenjitsu

>>90961637

>>90961637

Bendis' book on writing.

It's a fairly useful tool for literally anyone trying to get into the industry, also Bendis doesn't do most of the writing in his own book. It's just interviews with advice compiled from editors, other writers, and artists.

All very useful stuff. The three chapters Bendis does write are terrible and useless.

Basically most artists want:

>Bar scenes
>Exposition heavy stuff
>Repeat panels
>Full script not Marvel style

They simply don't want to do action.

>>90961754
Intended audience not actual one Anon

>>90961665
A mistake on my part, but cape-comics are a way of differentiating the characters and subject-matter, while shounen is specifically just a demographic of young boys. You could have any genre with superheroes, but things that appeal to young males (and fujos) number way less

>>90961763
This makes more sense because its skews towards the artists he has worked with in his career

>>90961446
>>90961570
Toku fans are such dorks.
>I like seeing some costumed guy beat up other costumed guys on top of a miniature!!
Pfftt

>>90961699
HAHAHA

Children don't read comics anymore.

I think it's hilarious that people on this board think that cape comics have more variety than manga. Maybe if you said comics in general but manga literally has sports series, crime series, sword & sorcery series, rock/idol group stories, horror series, slice of life stories, etc. Basically anything you can think of is a genre in manga. It's as diverse as Western movies.

Manga has stories entirely about guys playing mahjong, a loser with a gambling addiction, girls at a high school, teenagers forming a rock band, and a young girl trying to learn magic.

Capeshit may have variety but they all end up being superhero stories at the end of the day.

>>90960163
>Kamen Riders don't really fight crime or anything like that.
Have you never heard of anything Kamen Rider beyond the Showa era? They've got tons of guys who just fight crime like Accel and W.

>>90961760

Chris Ware and Acme Novelty Library.

>>90961773
You act like companies are ignorant of who their market is. What makes you think that any capes are targeted directly toward teenagers?

>>90961815
I know. But it's what I want. I want Ultraman to go HEYYECH and judo flip a giant monster before shooting lasers at it.

>>90961785

That's the thing, even guys like David Mack and Alex Maleev said this. Maleev literally says, "I like to draw people speaking in a bar. I don't like to draw hundreds of aliens descending from a spaceship.

This is the most direct answer I can give you. I love the really dark, noir way of telling a story. When there is a huge fight, it's the last thing I want to illustrate. It is usually the last page I'll draw--because I have to, the deadline is tomorrow and I have to do it."

He echoes what a lot of other guys in there say.

It comes down to the artists my dudes, not the writers. I am certain a lot of writers would LOVE to have full-on choreographed Bruce Lee style fights spanning five or six pages, but the artists just won't do them.

>>90961699
I don't know, man. Maybe in the 70s but today we have the villains winning, murder everywhere, suicides, death at every corner.

The main Spider-Man book has become a gore-fetishist's wonderland with how it handles itself.

>>90961932
Uh huh and all those books are rated on Comixology and most M/DC books are 12+ (which is the same as most Shonen comics) with some going up to 17+ and very few going over that.

That is all I said.

>>90961927
It sounds like he just doesn't like to do huge scenes with dozens of figures rather than action scenes specifically. That's hardly something you can blame the artist for especially since these things are usually mandated by the writer's script.

>>90961927
> full-on choreographed Bruce Lee style fights spanning five or six pages, but the artists just won't do them.

This requires a little known skill called storytelling

>>90962020
>>90961932
>>90961699
>>90961616
>>90961573
....I think the plan is to somehow trick someone into admitting cape comics are more mature than shonen or something but I'm not sure.

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>>90961932
It's so ass backwards too. This book is +12. You know how you can tell? The curse word is censored.

>>90962109
Comically edgy

>>90962137
Of course it was comically edgy, Seige was a train wreck. Why the hell would you elect the Green Goblin?

>>90962109
In some ways that is being honest to the want of 12 year olds

They want the gross weird shit that people tell them they are too young for.

>>90962020
>most M/DC books are 12+
Age ratings aren't the same as the target audience. Or appropriate audience truthfully speaking.

>>90962031

In the entire interview involving 14 artists, only two of them say they even enjoy action. Simonson and Irving. Which makes sense because they are the two oldest artists being interviewed, and probably drew the shit that everyone is praising at some point.

>>90962210
Do you happen to have a full list?

>>90962187
But this logic Nightmare on Elm Street is for 12 year olds.

>>90962053

Do you know how easy it is choreograph an interesting fight if you use Kung-fu rules? Just watch a couple Bruce Lee movies, or old Jackie Chan. Hell, watch the fucking Raid: Redemption.

>>90962236

Michael Allred
Chris Bachalo
Mark Bagley
Mike Deodato Jr
Adam Hughes
Frazer Irving
Klaus Janson
David LaFuente
David Marquez
Sara Pichelli
Bill Sienkiewicz
Walter Simonson
Jill Thompson
Skottie Young

that Ultraman book is trash so hopefully nothing from that

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>Japan doesn't have a problem with a lack of creativity because this weeks cheap ass phonebook collection magazine published Chingchongbingbong, a manga about how my little maid dragongirl sister can't be this cute or some shit

>>90962247
clearly they are the same thing after all.

>>90962310
Thanks

>>90959268
All depends on the genre and demograph of the manga.

Early Shonen is quite bad at writing females, but this has been getting better lately. Hell even Fairy Tail as bland and fan-servicey it is has some pretty strong female characters.

>>90962381
>strong female characters
I'm sick of this meme. Good characters aren't necessarily 'strong' characters.

>>90962436

It's just an adjective, Anon.

"Strong" is meant to denote, "well-written" and not actual physical strength.

If I said, "the plot doesn't get any help from its weak characters." What would you think I am saying?

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Enjoy this Spike Spiegel as hell sequence, I am enjoying this thread.

>>90962381
Valid point.

Shoujo heroines BTFO western heroines by a long shot. The Japanese aren't scared of portraying girls as actual girls AND human beings rather than soapboxes.

>>90962381
>Early Shonen quite bad at writing females

I actually sort of liked how females were written in Fist of the North Star. They had a power and nobility that was unique from the guys. Like Lynn who was willing to walk on hot coals and inspired a village to fight or Yuria who was the only person on Earth Roah couldn't bring himself to physically harm because of the nobility of her spirit.

They couldn't ATATATATATAT like the men, and it's a presented as a character flaw that Mamiya wants to fight like a man, but they had their own strength, a feminine strength that had a nobility all its own.

>>90962436
Passivity and submissiveness has been demonized for female characters. Unless they can beat up the bad guys like the male characters they're treated as bad characters.

>>90962512

>open carries while eating ice cream (weirdly) from a Styrofoam bowl

What the fuck is going on here?

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If we are talking Females in Action Series specifically

Deunan
Nausicaa
Gally

And a bunch of the supporting players in those series.

Speaking of Appleseed this bit right here is legendary.

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>>90962627
Wild 7 is a team of mercs who go around the world doing jobs as far as I can tell from not being able to read it so that guy is just always ready to go.

>>90962268
And yet here are today where mediocre action sequences abound

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This page and its use of past injury just perfect.

>>90962557
Anon that wrote >>90962571 here. I sort of agree with you but it really depends on what you're comparing. If you compare your average shoujo heroine to the current crop of quirky ethnic soapbox girl who can do no wrong and never encounters any real threat you're absolutely right. But western heroines tend to have a larger range overall. Just look at something like Geoff John's JSA. Courtney was not Peej was not Judomaster was not Liberty Belle was not Cyclone.

>>90962668

Because, once again, the artists don't want to draw them.

It's no different than wanting to have your plot show off ridiculously intricate, or realistic Sci-Fi machines but the artist goes, "I don't really like drawing those, so I'm not good at it." This forces you into a corner as a writer because you have to write what the artist can draw, but if the plot requires you to have Sci-Fi machines and they have to draw said Sci-Fi machines: expect mediocre craftsmanship.

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>>90957642
>AllMight is a great Superman take off precisely because he's not Superman.

All might its a corny ass character, nobody is going to be inspired by him in 10 years, prove me wrong.

>>90956412

Visuals are honestly the most important thing. Western cape comic action scenes tend to look like total shit compared to manga.

>>90962557
>rather than soapboxes
Here we go. An anon that was offended by an out of context page of something.

>>90958817
telling a story slowly its not such a hard thing to do or to come up

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>>90962755
That's the point. He's corny, he's larger than life, and he's classic. The character is an homage to the silly silver age hero. But more importantly he's portrayed as a person.

Superman is fucking Jesus. He's nowhere near as popular as he used to be, his only relevance is through his relationship with Batman and nostalgia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFbPbiBhipw

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God Shirow was so good

It is a shame GiTS steal such a large part of the spotlight from his other early work.

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>>90962755
That is probably for the best actually.

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>>90962878
>Homage to the silly silver age hero
>Superman is fucking Jesus

What do you think Superman was like in the Silver Age?

>>90962878
>Superman is fucking Jesus. He's nowhere near as popular as he used to be, his only relevance is through his relationship with Batman and nostalgia.
Superman is a man raised in Kansas, USA who worked at a newspaper and was able to get the girl of his dreams in both aspects of his life. Now, I haven't read the whole new testament BUT I'M SURE there's a difference there.

>>90962878
If only his arch nemesis wasn't such a trite cliche.