Do you like the DC Cinematic Universe Johnathan Kent, /co/?

Wasn't really blown away by him

>>90824622
Yeah, I think he was the first Pa Kent, in a long time, that wasn't two dimensional and actually portrayed the struggle that would go into raising an alien with super powers. He wasn't perfect, but he was undoubtedly human. He had to consider what was right and what would protect his son, to the point where he was willing to lay down his life to keep the world and him safe.


Best Pa Kent since Smallville.


Also not enough people talk about the Secret Identity influence on MoS and BvS.

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>>90824725
>Best Pa Kent since Smallville.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were a sane person just giving your offbeat opinion and then you had to speak positively of Smallville

>>90824622
I really do, but unfortunately, Man of Steel's confusion in the message it's trying to deliver with his character is contradictory and goes against what Clark eventually does. Also, the death of his character was rather forced, in my opinion. I understand what they were trying to do, protecting Clark's true nature from the world and all, but the way they had him go down was more comedic than it did seem impactful.

But yeah, I did like Kevin Costner as Pa Kent a lot, and I was glad to see his "ghost" in Batman v. Superman in spite of how odd it was for the writers to insert him in like that.

He did great, he seemed like a nice man who cared about his family...

I mean, the part where Clark learns he's not of this world was emotional. Costner did great with the whole "you are my son" bit with little Clark.

>>90824863
Oh, but he wasn't good enough to save the movie though. He just did a damn good job in it.

>>90824822
Smallville had about 3 seasons worth of great/good content spread out across 10 season. But come on, their Pa Kent was excellent


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5C4sGh-SU

>>90824622

maybe

>>90824863
> but unfortunately, Man of Steel's confusion in the message it's trying to deliver with his character is contradictory and goes against what Clark eventually does.

In what way? Pa Kent's whole thing was that he didn't want Clark to reveal himself before he, and the world, were ready. Turning yourself over willingly during an alien invasion is probably the best first impression you can make.

As someone who genuinely enjoyed MoS and BvS, i do not like this version of Pa Kent

>>90824902
>still this triggered by the maybe

fuck off, he knew Superman revealing himself would change the balance of the world, and it did and does in every iteration of Superman.

>>90824952
why?

>>90824622
I do, his dead wwas retarded

>>90824622
Look son, to this day I am haunted by the screams of drowning horses. No matter what you choose, people will die and you will be tormented by it forever. So maybe it doesn't matter and you should just do what you want to do.

>>90824963
If it's going to change anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to be a little more proactive and prepare for it (like in most versions of the Kents) than shuffling your feet and keeping your eyes on the ground like you're trying to avoid the inevitable?

>>90825057
How do you prepare for it?

>>90825057
He did prepare for it, him and ma kent were teaching him how to use his powers and not lose control. He doesnt keep his eyes down at all, but he does have an idea of the consequences should they act too soon.

>>90825056
>this is what idiots got out of his speech

I'm sorry that most media is just too hard for you to understand and appreciate. Maybe in the next life.

>>90824822
Smallville had a lot of good writing for that kind of show and a lot of nods to the source material, you can tell that they put a lot of effort into it.

The best part is that girls loved the show too, so its like a a bridge between geeky shit and girls

>>90825057
>like in most versions of the Kents

what? the only proactive thing was making his suit.


Pa Kent wanted his son to be a good pesorn and to grow up knowing he will change the world and that isnt as pretty as it sounds

>>90825056
are you literally stupid?

The speech was about how not doing the right thing when you could will haunt you forever.

>>90825209
>I didnt understand the movie.jpg

The tornado sequence could have worked if they quickened the pace.
Had Pa say outloud "no protect you mother" to Clark to explain why he couldn't go after the dog instead.
Have Pa get to his feet out of the car & Clark get to the overpass simultaneously so it doesn't seem like Clark is just standing around doing jack shit forever.
Have Pa wave him off and Clark hesitate only for a second and Pa is immediately swept away.
As it is, it meanders way way too fucking long, it comes off like Clark could have just ran over at a normal human level and got him.
And I say that as someone who loves the film, it was unquestionably the most incompetently handled scene in the film.

>>90825196
in MoS they helped him control his strength and super vision

>>90825287
Clark didnt know he had super speed at that time, and you really must not know what its like to try and run in a tornado.


AND Clark was supposed to protect the people in the overpass (lots of debris during a tornado too), and him following his father's wishes was meant to be him "apologizing" for calling him not his real dad not a moment earlier

Costner's perfect, it's just that his logic about protecting Clark is poorly justified at the script level -- the film doesn't sufficiently dramatize what he thinks he's protecting Clark from -- and then his death is fucked up just as much at the directorial level.
The actual blocking/staging of the circumstances setting up his self-sacrifice is so unconvincing that his death seems goofy.
Snyder made the same mistake with Zod's killing at the end: in neither case did these decisions (that everyone in the film had to expect to be controversial among fans, and even many non-fans) seem like the only possible option at that time. Just from the immediate visual information about what was happening right at that moment in each scene -- let alone fan head-canonish speculation about what else Superman could have done to save the day, based on knowledge of his powers from the other films and comics -- there were clearly a bunch of other things Superman could have done other than inviting death, first through negligence, second through direct action.
That both sequences involved so much planning and thought because of the effects involved, but could still be so stupidly staged as far as story logic goes is shocking.

I think Snyder's not a bad director, but holy shit does he have his blind spots, and they tend to undermine everything else he does.

>>90824940
I'm more or less talking about how one moment, Clark feels he can't help people, but the next minute, he saves people in a shipwreck. Then, when he actually does help people, he doesn't seem like he wants to.

I feel like the whole conflict of "should he or shouldn't he" is very blurred and needed to be more explicit in its message, hence why a lot of people who did notice it say it's not bad, and that people are just not smart enough to look at it.

In all honesty, Man of Steel really should have been a good movie, but the tone, the uncertainty, and the radical differences upstage the overall story. Then, Clark himself is a bit more bland. I feel like he's just there to have all of these conflicts thrown at him, as he just sighs, rather than strives onwards with hope.

I was willing to give it a second chance, but then Batman v. Superman happened, and it just proved to be a mess in what it was trying to do, overflown with way too much setting up, way too less on telling an actual story, and too many brow-raising moments (Clark dying for no good reason other than to be dramatic).

>>90825287
It's not even the pace as much as it was the execution. In Man of Steel lies a great movie, but the result is unfortunately a million times worse than what it should have been. I think a rewrite with the idea on "HOPE" would hope, rather than being an awkward coming-of-age, super-hero, action-blockbuster, art film. It's ambitious, but not well-thought in terms of presentation, thus having the story (be it symbolic and internal for Clark or regarding the actual invasion) being rather muddled and off for those who expected a simple "Superman movies, but hopeful".

Man of Steel could be fixed so much, because it could've been great, but some of Snyder's choices (and Goyer's often mediocre capabilities as a screenwriter) set a good final product into looking like a mediocre sci-fi film with a mopey-tryhard story, when really, it can be so much more

>>90825287
(Was busy writing my own fucking blog post while this was posted, but wholeheartedly agree, obviously)

It's as much a directing/editing problem as it is a script issue. That this sequence had to pass through so many hands and sets of eyes (let alone all the focus group testing), and still end up so lame-brained for such a crucial scene is fucking bizarre.

>>90825394
There is a few other things he could have done to advert Zod killing the 1 family but that would not have stopped Zod period and taking him out of that room & risking loosing the headlock would have been incredibly negligent. The instant he is out of the headlock thousands of lives are in immediate danger again.

>>90824717
Fpbp

Didn't Synder say some silly DM shit like he changed nothing about Superman in his films and if you were real fans you'd know that?

Why do you guys still talk about this film? It's a big Hollywood middle finger to Superman.

>>90824863
I really do, but unfortunately, Man of Steel's confusion in the message it's trying to deliver with his character is contradictory and goes against what Clark eventually does. Also, the death of his character was rather forced, in my opinion. I understand what they were trying to do, protecting Clark's true nature from the world and all, but the way they had him go down was more comedic than it did seem impactful.

>>90825394
>Costner's perfect, it's just that his logic about protecting Clark is poorly justified at the script level -- the film doesn't sufficiently dramatize what he thinks he's protecting Clark from -- and then his death is fucked up just as much at the directorial level.

THIS. FUCKING THIS.

>>90825755
>It's a big Hollywood middle finger to Superman.
Putting Superman in a context were he is flawed and the world around him is flawed so he has to struggle, put in real effort and overcome & inspire hope rather then inspiring hope simply out of existing isn't a middle finger to the character.

>>90825755
Even more because it was made as an actual middle finger to the family of Superman's creator.

This thread is just the safespace for paid shills.

>>90825946
Execution matter.

Most Superman stories do it better. I heard that American Alien was way better in this regard, but I still have to watch.

>>90825939
Meant to put a ">" in front of the first part of that post. Sorry.

>>90825995
American Alien has him be a childish selfish fucking brat that doesn't give a fuck about helping people.

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>>90825946
Except it didn't work out that way

Instead he blew up a city, broke a guy's neck, and is arbitrarily either feared as a demon or a savior depending on whatever's convenient for the next plot development in a movie series that takes Superman's years of existing backstory for granted without establishing a grounding for it's own plans

A down to Earth Superman story with a sociological look at things and real stakes is hunky dory but it also has to be good

>>90826076
>Instead he blew up a city
No he was on the other side of the planet when the world engine did that, he had no part in it.
>broke a guy's neck
Saving thousands if not millions of lives.
>and is arbitrarily either feared as a demon or a savior
As exactly what would happen in real life as humans are inconsistent indecisive mother fuckers.

>>90825946
Yes it is when it comes from the context of thinking Superman as a concept is outdated, campy and a character that they felt they needed to apologize for and change. Have you read their interviews? That's how they think of him and they never acknowledged Superman already existed in a realm that surrounded him with conflict.

The middle finger is also jammed in when his dad dies to teach him his decisions have consequences and he should ignore even family in danger to protect himself when Clark immediately throws that life lesson away to stick his mysterious key into a mysterious space craft not knowing what would happen. When the Ursa here said that having a sense of morality made him weak and them strong without it, Clark didn't say shit. There's alot of examples I can point out that is a middle finger to Clark's capabilities, intelligence, moral compass, and he concept he already was. This film came from people who didn't read his shit and one who wrote a few Superman comics but still thought he's outdated. This film did Superman absolutely no justice or favors. Everyone still likes the DCU one much better.

>>90826076
>Instead he blew up a city
No he didn't and while that city was destroyed he prevented the entire human race from ceasing to exist.

>>90824717
He sure got blown away, though.

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>>90826130
If only the actual movie went to half as much effort in justifying the shit that happened in it as you do

>>90825472
>I'm more or less talking about how one moment, Clark feels he can't help people, but the next minute, he saves people in a shipwreck. Then, when he actually does help people, he doesn't seem like he wants to.


What are you talking about? How does he ever seem like he doesn't WANT to help people? And don't say his facial expression because thats a retarded argument.

The argument is never whether or not Clark SHOULD help people, its whether or not his presence ends up doing more good than bad in the long run.


>Clark dying for no good reason other than to be dramatic

But he didn't die for no good reason at all, he died to save the world, showing how easily he is willing to sacrifice himself for the world and proving to everyone (Batman, Lex, Lois, the people, the press, the government) that he is not a god or a demon, just a man trying to do good.


AND it shows to Batman that men can still be good, bringing him back.


Honestly, saying he died for no reason is like the stupidest complaint about the movie and shows you didnt even observe the most basic of plot points.

>>90825946
How did Superman inspire anything?

The entire planet wouldn't have the casualties they had if Clark died in space as a baby. If you make a film where it's better for the Earth if Superman died as a baby then that's a giant middle finger to the character.

>>90826156
>Yes it is when it comes from the context of thinking Superman as a concept is outdated
Bline idealism coming from a flawless mary sue is the definition of outdated, it is alienating and unrelatable.
In the real world it doesn't help anything it just causes more problems.
>and a character that they felt they needed to apologize for and change
What works in 1 context doesn't work in another. That doesn't equal a apologetic change, its just a valid form of adaption.
>and they never acknowledged Superman already existed in a realm that surrounded him with conflict.
Conflict without consequence, weight or ever allowing the lead character to make mistakes or fail in anyway.

>>90826265
>Bline idealism coming from a flawless mary sue is the definition of outdated
Hi Synder and Goyer. I don't know why or how you became in charge of the movie verse but you are the worst thing to happen to Superman since TDKR. Fuck you for shitting on an international icon and getting paid handsomely to do it.

>>90826156
>and he should ignore even family in danger to protect himself
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, he wasn't fucking protecting himself.
This was NEVER fucking about just protecting Clark.
LISTEN TO THE FUCKING MOVIE.
He said "there is more at stake then our lives or the lives of those (directly) around us"
It was about concern that going public would cause more deaths then Clark could hope to save.
>when Clark immediately throws that life lesson away to stick his mysterious key into a mysterious space craft not knowing what would happen
Over a decade transpired in between Pa's death & the discovery of the craft.
The craft was out FAR fucking away from civilization it was immeasurably better that it be activated properly by him, then be incompetently activated/tampered with/dissembled by the military.
>When the Ursa here said that having a sense of morality made him weak and them strong without it, Clark didn't say shit.
He doesn't need to say anything, he has nothing to prove, he knows she is wrong that is all that matters.

>>90826363
PS. You should have had Batman raped in your film after all since you said it was possible. It was unrealistic that Batman wasn't raped in your ultra realistic film.

Horse killer

>>90826180
I'm not justifying anything, it is what factually took place on screen.
A full power Kryptonian can kill the entire human race by hand, Zod saying he intends to kill them all 1 by 1 out of spite isn't a outlandish boast, its a factual possibility.

>>90826196
Strongly second everything you said here.

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>>90824622
He was amazing.

>>90826249
Zod was making his way to every colonial world, he may have made it to earth regardless.
Same can be said about the Joker existing because of Batman, many if not most villains do what they do because of the heroe's presence. Why the fuck are you only holding it against Superman this 1 time?

>>90826363
>but you are the worst thing to happen to Superman since TDKR
No having all writers/creators walk on egg shells around the character and refusing to ever challenge him or have him grow is the worst thing to ever happen to the character.

And having Superman compromise for the greater good isn't bad writing.
He worked for the US government to save his friends fucking lives. They would have been hunted down and murdered had Clark not compromised.

>>90826398
>It was about concern that going public would cause more deaths then Clark could hope to save.
It was also about teaching Clark to value himself over others. Hence the whole let a bus full of kids die. And again, Clark continuously invalidated his dad's death, exposing himself to save others. Invalidated it by activating an alien ship he didn't know anything about. Had no back up plan for the worst case scenario and guess what? At the end, Superman called a bunch of aliens and an incalculable amount of people died. He could not take a bigger shit on his dad's grave and his "Your actions have consequences" message. He could have tried to steal the fucking ship than activate it.

>He doesn't need to say anything, he has nothing to prove.

This is fucking Superman. He, Superman, has nothing to say when an enemy says having a sense of morality makes him inferior? Really? Again, I don't see why people argue about this film, it's just a middle finger to Superman and a finger popping to people who never liked, barely skimmed, or have their own notions of who the character is. One thing you fucks can't mentally tap dance out of is this attempt failed.

>>90826527
Okay but the ship could have easily been a bomb and took out the Earth. The point being he unnecessarily risked the entire planet with no back up plan and people died. What's certain is what happened in the film and what happened is tons of people died when they would have lived if Superman died as a baby. That even includes his goddamn dad lol Jon wouldn't have known to go back for the dog had there been no Clark.

>>90824622
Not really

He went back and forth from "you have the power to make the world a better place" to "what the fuck were you doing saving those children?!" so often that it's no wonder why Clark sucks

I think all this repetitive inane arguing over an objectively terrible movie on multiple levels is a perfect microcosm of why the world at large is going to absolute shit.

>>90826629
>It was also about teaching Clark to value himself over others. Hence the whole let a bus full of kids die
No it was fucking not.
If he saves the bus but reveals himself and Muslims murder a thousand people to spite the being that proves their god wrong then it factually would not have been worth it.
It had NOTHING to fucking do with selfishness in anyway.

Have you considered that the film is trying to say that Pa was in the wrong to a extent?

He didn't die to keep Clark from going public ever, he died so Clark wouldn't have to do so YET when he was still young and incredibly unprepared mentally.

>At the end, Superman called a bunch of aliens and an incalculable amount of people died.
If a serial killer sees me by a new car, follows be home & murders all my neighbors is it my fault?
Clark did nothing fucking wrong, he was out in the fucking arctic there would be no safer place to activate it. It's a thousand times better then letting the military reverse engineer it.

>>90824940
>In what way? Pa Kent's whole thing was that he didn't want Clark to reveal himself before he, and the world, were ready.
The massive problem is that we were never told what he meant by "ready".

And I can't help but feel what he meant was "never reveal yourself unless some other alien already showed up".

And what we got was Zod.

>>90826076
>Superman killing the same character he killed in the comics, for much better reasons, is a middle finger to the character

kek, you casual

>>90826793
Going to absolute shit? That's to our male overlords we're looking at environmental existinction of our species in the next 35-40 years at best. Mind as well argue about something objectively horrible on every level because there's nothing we can do otherwise.

>>90826468
Thanks broskie

>>90826715
>Okay but the ship could have easily been a bomb and took out the Earth
Preposterous and the military fucking with the ship would have risked that even worse.

>>90826715
>Okay but the ship could have easily been a bomb and took out the Earth
Even if it was booby trapped from intruders, why would using a key from their own species be what set it off?
You see how fucking retarded your being.

>>90826890
>The massive problem is that we were never told what he meant by "ready".

Because Pa Kent knows thats Clark's choice to decide, not his. He isn't a despot, just a parent. When Clark does decided, he decides its when his revealing himself will do the most good and (at least in that moment) spare the whole world.

>>90826880
>If he saves the bus but reveals himself and Muslims murder a thousand people
Stopped reading right here.

He's the Pa Kent nobody wanted. The most unsure people want Pa Kent to be is "don't worry son we'll figure it out" not an understandably confused regular jagoff who just so happened to adopt Alien jesus and is panicking because he's not just raising a kid he's raising a kid whose very existence will change the course of history. But like everything else in MoS that's not what they wanted from a Superman movie. So you have a mediocre movie but then you fill it with decisions that go against everyone's ideas of what Superman should be which is why I think there's so much vitriol aimed at the DCEU.

>>90824622
I thought he was good until he died. He may not have had the best message but he seemed like a good father figure.

>>90826970
Then your willfully blinding yourself to Pa's concerns.
That was just a random example.
Pa said it himself that both science and religion would be thrown into disarray by the reveal.
We have had genocides over far smaller fucking things then godly powerful aliens existing.

>>90824622
STOP

>>90824622
No. He was a cynical, paranoid, uninspiring dick.

>>90826196
>And don't say his facial expression because thats a retarded argument.
Don't get hostile, please. I'm just stating my mind. And I say he never wants to help people because he's never shown to be GLAD he is. They instead opt for him to do things because he feels like he HAS too, but then, next film, "you don't owe this world a damn thing". It's unclear. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and state that they really make it seem like he doesn't want to help people in the second film especially. The scenes (rather sequences the more I think about it) where he's shown after asaving a rocket ship, or dragging a ship, rescuing people from a flood..the way it's executed is off. Those whole moments could have been entire scenes where Superman tries his hardest to make a difference, and we see how he feels about helping them when said scenes are over.

>The argument is never whether or not Clark SHOULD help people, its whether or not his presence ends up doing more good than bad in the long run.

When you start asking those questions, it should be in the second film, not the first. Look at Spider-Man 2. It's flawed and dated to most, but it at least had Peter Parker wondering "Why the fuck should I put myself through this?" Man of Steel pushed too many questions for being an origin film, and while some may call that ambitious, it ended up being too bloated, getting in the way of establishing SUPERMAN. First, have Superman save Earth from an invasion, poise the questions on his identity, more about who he is rather than his impact. You can keep the big DBZ fight a the end, have the sequel questioning his repercussions, where it's appropriate to ask "whether or not his presence ends up doing more good than bad in the long run."
Snyder had good ideas, but he felt too confident in them, and the movie suffered.

1/2

>>90826944
So you're telling me that only humans would be capable of having a self destruct option? Okay, my actual point being Clark didn't know what the fuck he was activating, he took no heed of possible danger for him or the planet, he took no heed of his dad's DYING message of "Your choices have consequences", he had no back up plan, and the ship could easily do anything for all he knew and what happened was that people actually died. There would be no defending if the ship destroyed the whole planet (Technically Zod almost did) or activated more killer robots like the one that attacked Lois or whatever. He could have stole the fucking ship. This film is made purely for idiots.

>>90826196

>>90827077
cont'd
>But he didn't die for no good reason at all, he died to save the world, showing how easily he is willing to sacrifice himself for the world and proving to everyone

Now you see, think about the actual situation. He’s Superman, right? He’s carrying a Kryptonite spear made by Batman, and decides, “Hey, what if instead of me actually killing myself with Doomsday, I told Batman or Wonder Woman to through it while I hold them off?” But he didn’t. What they could have done is this:

Superman gets Bats to wield the spear while he and Wonder Woman hold off Doomsday. Then, as Superman and Wondie get the tar beaten out of them from Doomsday, Batman throws the spear, or sneaks on Doomsday amidst the battle.

If you still wanted Supes to die (even though it’s way too soon for him to die in the cinematic universe they’re pushing so hard for), you can have Superman in a position where he’s being pummeled, and Batman can’t use the spear unless he kills Clark too. Presumably Clark is about to have his arms torn off (he’d be in the pose of Jesus of the cross for symbolic reasons that Snyder loves so much). In order to bring Doomsday off his feet, Clark then uses his heat vision to knock him on his back...but while he does, Doomsday still hangs tight to Supes’ arms, and he’s not letting go. Clark can’t get out, Wonder Woman is defeated, and only Bruce can help...at the cost of Clark’s life. He looks at Clark, who nods. Bruce shakes his head. Even though he's killed countless men, now he can’t do it. He should but can’t. His arm trembles...until the good arm of Wonder Woman holds it as well. They both throw the spear together, it penetrates through Superman, killing Doomsday.

The reason why I say he died for no reason though isn’t just because it could’ve been done a million different ways, though, but because it’s too soon to kill off Superman. Its only the second movie. They should’ve held their cards.

>2/2

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>>90826629
>and a finger popping to people who never liked, barely skimmed
Try again fucker.

>>90827077
>it should be in the second film
No it fucking shouldn't.
It would be negligent for Clark to just rush into it and not consider the ramifications till after it is too late.

>>90827077
>"you don't owe this world a damn thing"
Its a mother just wanting whatever will bring her son peace.
>the way it's executed is off.
No it's not, the sequence wasn't about Clark, it was about the world reacting to him.

>>90827222
>have their own notions of who the character is
And your notion of the character is as garbage as MOS.

>>90827148
>He could have stole the fucking ship.
No he fucking couldn't, he is strong but he is not even remotely strong enough to break it out of all that ice and physically carry it anywhere. Its as big as a fucking battlship.

>>90827324
>Its a mother just wanting whatever will bring her son peace.
Peace for a son who just is the sole person responsible for summoning aliens at a whim. He owes all those people their lives back. There was zero reason to activate the ship. This Martha is a massive sociopath if she thinks otherwise. Disgusting.

>>90827148
>So you're telling me that only humans would be capable of having a self destruct option?
No I am asking why would they program the self destruct to go off when their own species key turned the ship on?

>>90827156
1.) It would be cowardly.
2.) DD could dodge a throw.
3.) Batman doesn't have the strength to thrust it deep enough to kill DD.
4.) Wonder Woman holding DD with the lasso is the only thing restraining him and his shockwaves.
5.) It's Zod, he was reborn specifically to kill him, its his responsibility.
6.) Batman can't get in close or would die by DD's arms flailing or the shockwaves.

>>90827405
What kinda of question is this. Do our own species keys not work when activating a bombing sequence or self destruction? Trump or his guards have a suit case, I believe they call the nuclear football, to launch nuclear warfare. The suit case has a key from our species to open said suit case. Clark didn't know what he was activating when he stuck his key in. He just saw a hole and then a city was flatten later.

>>90827332
My notion is that he is a hero who inspires hope.
There is nothing garbage about me wanting him to struggle & endure hardship and overcome rather then mary sue his way through every problem.
That is basic character writing 101.

>>90827393
>There was zero reason to activate the ship.
Personal level = To discovery his origins.
Big Picture Level = Keep it out of the hands of the military who would likely use the tech for weapons.

>>90827077
>>90827156
so because Superman never flat out says he likes helping people and never makes the correct facial expression you assume he doesnt like it? How about the fact he KEEPS DOING IT over and over and over again despite no one ever saying he has to. No one has ever put it in his mind that he has a duty to these people, he keeps doing it of his own volition. His actions show that he wants to save people. That is one of the big points of BvS, is that in the end, Superman says and does more to influence the narrative through his actions than Batman or Luthor can do through their words.

>>90827495
Yes but Krypton doesn't have infighting amongst themselves in that era. there would be no reason for them to booby trap the ship against their own species.

One thing I do think is amazing about BvS and MoS, is that we are having the very debate the citizens in the movies were having. We are arguing about the very issues that Pa & Ma Kent, Luthor, Batman, and the Senator were talking about themselves.

>>90826043
Not really.

American Alien is better than MOS and BvS in every regard.

>>90827657
>people talking about a movie discuss what the characters were saying on the movie

Fucking blew my mind.

Is it your first discussion about a movie?

>>90827280
Was it negligent of Peter Parker to suddenly becomes Spider-Man? Was it negligent for Green Lantern to immediately assume his role? Is it negligible that Barry Allen used his speed to help people? I'm not saying we have to have him jump in the costume right away and fly around, but rather, have him see that he can help people. There's nothing wrong with that. A man who's always wanted t help finally steps up to the occasion. He realizes he can do so much more, and does. And you know what? Clark was already pretty negligible in the movie. That whole destruction of Metropolis was insane, but I'd be willing to forgive it since he's rather verdant in this whole thing of fighting bad guys, and because of that, he's inexperienced and things break! He's playing with friggin' fire, you know? It's Clark's coming of age story...he has room to be negligible enough, and all can be repaired in a second film if the first one is good.

>>90827324
>Its a mother just wanting whatever will bring her son peace.
Alright, I'll give you that.

>>90827576
Okay, look, I want to agree with you, but this is film. You gotta show that he's doing this and feels some sense of reward to balance out all the moments he complains. Instead, the movies treat it more like he feels OBLIGATED because he is able to do these things. His actions show him helping people, sure, but they are only snapshots rather than actual segments. I want to see what happened when he saved the rocket, and see what the people reacted to after it, not hear them discuss if its right.

The movie takes the term "show, don;t tell" too literally, or not literally enough. It's either talking about things we should see, seeing things that should instead be talked about and seeing only a moment of things that need to be seen.

>>90827665
Yes because Clark partying on a billionares stolen boat and burning people's arms off is soooooo much more faithful to the core of the character then a version who would kill or die to save 7-8 billion innocent lives.

>>90827732
Are you really being a dick with a kid that couldn't control his powers? Also these were way better moments to humanize Clark than anything on the movies of Zack "suckered punch" Snyder.

>>90827730
>You gotta show that he's doing this and feels some sense of reward to balance out all the moments he complains.

When does he complain? Like ever? The only time I can think of, that comes even close to complaining, is right after the terrorist attack at the Senate building where he thinks his presence caused such a terrible event to happen and he briefly loses hope.

>Instead, the movies treat it more like he feels OBLIGATED because he is able to do these things.

HOW?! You are literally just projecting this because he didn't make the right facial expression for you.


>His actions show him helping people, sure, but they are only snapshots rather than actual segments.

What do you mean? There is like over 20 minutes of Man of Steel dedicated to Clark just wandering around helping people. If he saved people for an extra five minutes then you would believe he is doing it for the right reasons?


> I want to see what happened when he saved the rocket, and see what the people reacted to after it, not hear them discuss if its right.

But them discussing if its right IS their reaction to it.

>The movie takes the term "show, don;t tell" too literally, or not literally enough.

So you dont even actually know the point you are trying to argue?


> It's either talking about things we should see, seeing things that should instead be talked about and seeing only a moment of things that need to be seen.

Nah.

>>90827730
>Was it negligent of Peter Parker to suddenly becomes Spider-Man? Was it negligent for Green Lantern to immediately assume his role? Is it negligible that Barry Allen used his speed to help people?
The ramifications of Aliens existing is far different the the public's reaction to any of the above.
> That whole destruction of Metropolis was insane
That Clark had no part in except the crashing of the scout ship.
>he's inexperienced and things break!
The only thing that was damaged from his inexperience was the 711 in Smallville.

>>90827809
>Clark being irresponsible as a teenager and losing control, spitting in the face of everything Pa Kent taught him is more faithful

wew lad, its like you've never read Superman before 2015

>>90827700
Yeah you're right, I was totally talking about whether or not the force was real after Star Wars, and I was definitely talking about whether or not Spider-Man is a menage after the Spider-Man movies.


Goddamn you are a retard.

>>90827952
Yeah man, we are totally talking about how Krypton is real too!

Jesus, are you underage?

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>>90827837
You just reminded me how much better their Pa Kent was compared to snyder's.

>>90827479
>1.) It would be cowardly.
If everyone except the bad guy is able to live, it’s not cowardly. It’s rational. Why let anyone die when they don’t need to. Now of course, I then go on to write how you could still have Superman a martyr, but the fact is Superman, there were a millions ways around Clark’s sacrifice at the very moment it occurred, and that dying just because it’d be “uncowardly” is not logical. Why would you kill yourself to save the day when you can do it whilst letting everyone live?

>2.) DD could dodge a throw.
Not if he’s distracted, pummelling Superman, who I aid would be holding him off in the suggestion I posted.

>3.) Batman doesn't have the strength to thrust it deep enough to kill DD.
And Wonder Woman assisting him in a throw with her super-strength wouldn’t help?

>4.) Wonder Woman holding DD with the lasso is the only thing restraining him and his shockwaves.
Doomsday should have dodged that throw, in that case. Just like he should’ve dodged that kryptonite gas that Batman shot. Maybe Also, Clark could’ve stabbed Doomsday from any angle he wanted to. He could’ve flown behind Doomsday to stab him.
5.) It's Zod, he was reborn specifically to kill him, its his responsibility.
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean the story DEMANDS Superman has to die by Doomsday.
6.) Batman can't get in close or would die by DD's arms flailing or the shockwaves.
In that scene, yes, but you’re forgetting that I wrote a whole ALTERNATIVE SCENE in that post that says how it could’ve been done differently, making even Clark’s death happen in a much more inescapable manner so that he HAD to die because he had no way out at the one opportunity for Doomsday to die.

>>90828044
we are having the discussion, as the characters did, of whether or not Superman is good, whether his presence is causing more harm than good, and whether or not his attentions are good, literally the same things Batman, Lex, The Kents, etc. are all thinking/talking about.


Never did this same kind of discussion come around whether Spider-Man is a menace, whether or not Wolverine is a good, etc. Say what you want, but Terrio was really able to hone in on the zeitgeist around MoS when writing BvS.

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>>90828102
So much fucking better.

>>90828102
so you dont actually have an argument? You are just shit posting about the same shitty comic? You do realize that Clark getting drunk on the boat is him spitting in the face of everything his parents ever taught him about restraint and responsibility. Hell, he could have killed a guy if that guy he punched didn't just happen to be deathstroke.

Also MoS Pa Kent did the "you are my son" thing better:

https://youtu.be/tEfoNXQDWBs?t=112

AND had a better Ma Kent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfpZD2ggx0&

>>90828190
>>90828102
>samefag admits he has never read a superman comic before 2015

stay casual

>>90828133
Okay, I got it, you are underage AND retarded, because these kind of discussions always show up on almost all of these movies. Talking about the in universe reasoning of the characters is not fucking new, and you are saying that the shut way to make characterization somehow warrant quality discussion because most people think that it is garbage.

>>90828114
Goddamn you are retarded. Your whole post boils down to why didnt the characters think as perfectly rationally as I wanted them to in the heat of battle.

Go be autistic somewhere else and ask why Batman didn't set it up so he could save Harvey Dent perfectly without him becoming Two-Face.

>>90828218
>samefag

I wasn't pretending to be more than one person.


And as I can see, you doesn't have arguments. Poor little nerd, I certainly read more comics than you.

>>90828284
You look mad.

Hilarious this autism of fanboys.

>>90828243
Its not just in-universe you idiot, people here are having the same opinions as the characters in-universe. As in people here, in real life, do view Superman as being uncaring and awful just like Batman did while crazy and Luthor does. While other people view the exact same scenes, the exact same events, as him being heroic like post-crazy Batman does, like the Senator does.


No one in real life seriously sides with JJJ.

>>90828285
You still never argued against
>>90828204


stay casual though kid

>>90828327
This is called, "talking about a movie".

And it's only happening because of poor storytelling skills. You sure is retarded, we get better discussions about topics like this on X-men threads, or even Civil War threads.

>>90828319
>I dont have an argument
>but my autism about people acting perfectly rationally and how I want them to is fine I swear!!!!!!!

kek

>>90828379
kek no, no one has ever actually argued for the extermination of the X-gene.

>>90828391
I'm not even the same anon, autistic fella.

>>90828379
yeah you are right, thats why I see so many threads asking about whether or not JJJ is justified.


keep trying kid

>>90828406
Geez, you sure are new.

>>90828444
nah, been here since Civil War and Darkest Night storytimes, keep trying to fit in though and pretend like you know what you are talking about.


The threads you think you are referring to are done partially in jest, as thought experiments, or as in-universe arguments.

This is people actually taking on the opinions the movie predicted they would have.

Smallville version was way better.

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>>90828361
Your argument is "not muh" while acting like Superman had never got drunk before.

But I'm pretty sure that you as a Snyder fag would atherosclerosis have Clark spending his childhood and teenage years cowered in a dark room. It must be relatable to you.

>>90828424
>why people don't believe that the ironic comedic element is serious guyz????

Nigga,the script was so bad, that it went against to what the writers intended to pass. This is called being a shifty writers.

Theyadequate a Superman that is a death away of becoming an homicidal overlord, and you are surprised for people saying that it is shut direction to take the character.

>>90828553
That is not my argument at all, my argument is that him doing that as a teenager, right after leaving the kent farm, is him basically ignoring everything he was ever taught and a big middle finger to his parents. Also if Deathstroke was not super-human, he would have killed him with that backhand.


Even in your pic, Superman is a grown ass adult.

And I like Clark going out doing things, thats why I liked Snyder's version so much. We see Clark acting like a normal child, with bullies and such, we see him reading things that are way beyond his skill level (showing his kryptonian brain) and even going out exploring the world, learning about people and how things work.

>>90828490
>The threads you think you are referring to are done partially in jest, as thought experiments, or as in-universe arguments.


Which is better than what we have here.

>>90828624
>that it went against to what the writers intended to pass

Nah, nice fiction though


>Theyadequate a Superman that is a death away of becoming an homicidal overlord, and you are surprised for people saying that it is shut direction to take the character.

No, he was specifically a Batman murdering his wife away from it and this was just in Batman's paranoid dreams. We have no idea if Future Flash came from that future or a different future or what.

>>90828646
How much they are paying you shillanon?

>>90828651
>Yeah I was wrong but I'm still right!!!!!


its okay to admit you were wrong

>>90828706
>I don't have an argument but you're a shill!!!

The lowest of lowly arguments. You would have been better not posting at all.

>>90828700
>Batman murdering his wife

>says that the other is making fiction up

>bring "this" up

Why snydercucks are always confusing their fanfiction and headcanon with the movies that they defend all day on their sad lives?

>>90828706
>how dare someone be passionate and defend art they like on a board dedicate to art forms!!!!

you are autistic

>>90828747
How is that fan fiction? In Batman's dream sequence, Superman flat out says he did it because Batman killed Lois. And once again, its literally Batman's head canon and his paranoia being given form.

>>90828624
>>90828747
We don't have the specifics of that future scenario.
All we know is Superman goes full murder mode and presumably teams up with Apokalips and blames Batman for the death of Lois.

>>90828792
We know that, in Superman's eyes, Batman killed Lois.

>>90827815
>HOW?! You are literally just projecting this because he didn't make the right facial expression for you.
I really don't get why you think that. I don't think it's because of Cavil's face, I think it's because of the way the story, dialogue and everything else is structured. If the film can never elaborate on what he gets from helping people, what he feels other than the burden, we wonder why he's still doing this. The whole film ends up making it look that wya, intentional or not, because the scenes where he's lamenting over how he's so stressed and laments about being a hero outshines where he's happy with himself for helping. I wish he was more like he was in the interrogation room scene. He knows everyone's stressed, and while he smiles, he's still queit, humble, and serious.

>What do you mean? There is like over 20 minutes of Man of Steel dedicated to Clark just wandering around helping people. If he saved people for an extra five minutes then you would believe he is doing it for the right reasons?
>But them discussing if its right IS their reaction to it
Lemme give you an example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0lQxUqmnfU

See how we just see him there, doing things for a sequence? That's as much as we get to see him do actually saving people. In everything else, there're whole scenes dedicated to what would be an equivalent of just one of those parts where he saves the day. Instead, they use it to talk. They show little, and primarily tell to show he's not a demigod or whatever. Well, how come we can't see it through Clark himself? and when we do (which in BvS is very seldom), he's unhappy doing what he does, or appears to be. Basically, I want to know what the hell happens and see for myself him saving people, not him walking out of a burning building carrying someone over voice over about how ccontroversial he is...I wanna see the whole scene of him rescuing said person so we can see it in detail. It's the "show, don't tell" rule.

1/2

>"STOP, invincible son! You are a literal god among insects, but the planet isn't ready for you yet. I hope that in the past 18 years of your life I have taught you the morals needed to not abuse your gifts. I did not intend for this to be my final act on this Earth, but I'm somewhat glad it is. Even if it pains you, you must wait before revealing yourself to the world. I do not know when that time will be but I feel inside that one day the existential shock you gave me and your mother when we found you will be delivered to the whole world one day. Because if you exist then who knows what could be out there? Unlike you however the shock may be followed up with a legitimate threat and at that time I pray you will there to protect your mother and everyone else on this rock like the good man we raised you to be. Please be strong for them both, my son. Endure all the death from human threats and natural disasters because they are preferable to you revealing your presence. Let it strengthen your resolve to one day protect us all. As I stare into eyes here with this tornado roaring behind me, I just want you realize that you were sent to this planet for a reason and saving me isn't it, but above all I want you know that I love you."

>>90828816
>So you dont even actually know the point you are trying to argue?
I’m trying to argue that the film presents Superman poorly and this gives people the wrong impression of it; this is because the film does not succeed in telling the story as it is due to the choices made being odd. It rather speaks about certain things instead of showing them and does not let the audience decipher it for ourselves. A good film doesn’t always have to tell you this or that all the time. In Ridley Scott’s “Alien,” did anyone ever have to explain the creature’s life cycle, or did you figure it out on your own? Did you ever need anyone in The Dark Knight, did the movie ever have to tell you the Joker was evil, or did the character himself display his villainy enough on his own without having others constantly say it for him?

>Nah.
I'm asking you to at least CONSIDER it. That doesn't mean you have to dislike the movie nor is there any shame in liking it if it is flawed. Really, just think about it. Anyone can just say "I disagree with you, or 'nah'," but you gotta be open-minded. Look at the film from the others perspective. I'm not trying to antagonize you or anyone else who likes the movies, I'm just saying why they shouldn't be upset at people for disliking them, and why the films themselves are most likely flawed (or at the very, very least, perceived to be).

2/2

>>90828816
>If the film can never elaborate on what he gets from helping people, what he feels other than the burden, we wonder why he's still doing this.

But you are making it up, never does he say anywhere that it is a burden.

>because the scenes where he's lamenting over how he's so stressed and laments about being a hero outshines where he's happy with himself for helping

But no where does he lament about being a hero, the closest he gets is wondering if his presence does more harm than good.

>I wish he was more like he was in the interrogation room scene. He knows everyone's stressed, and while he smiles, he's still queit, humble, and serious.

You mean like in the senate scene?


>See how we just see him there, doing things for a sequence? That's as much as we get to see him do actually saving people. In everything else, there're whole scenes dedicated to what would be an equivalent of just one of those parts where he saves the day.


So literally just not long enough for you? And thats not true, it opens with him saving lois and ends with him saving the world. We also see a whole wall of headlines in Wally's house and constantly have people talk about him saving people. And again, in MoS we had over 20 minutes dedicated to showing Superman saving people. They don't need to re-explain that he saves people every movie, just like in Spider-Man 2 and 3 they didnt need as many scenes of Peter just saving random people and focused on his dispute within himself and between him and his villains.
>Instead, they use it to talk. They show little, and primarily tell to show he's not a demigod or whatever.

What do you mean, they ARE showing us how the world is reacting to him. People express themselves through words, they are having discussions debating the merits of Superman and showing every view the world could have.
>Well, how come we can't see it through Clark himself?

We do? Like even in what you linked, we see him uncomfortable with the praise.

>>90828816
>he's unhappy doing what he does, or appears to be.

Look at the very clip you linked, Superman is smiling when saving the girl until people start praising him like a god. Again, if he was so unhappy, he wouldnt keep doing it. You are projecting.


>Basically, I want to know what the hell happens and see for myself him saving people, not him walking out of a burning building carrying someone over voice over about how ccontroversial he is...I wanna see the whole scene of him rescuing said person so we can see it in detail.

What the fuck why, you see him save the girl. why do you need every detail? How does that in anyway change the world's views on him. The movie isn't about your view of him, its about the many different views people have of him.

>>90828906
>It rather speaks about certain things instead of showing them and does not let the audience decipher it for ourselves.

No, you just think the movie should be doing something other than what you want it to do. It shows us what the world's views are, it shows the actions he takes that the world establishes these views on, it never tells you, the audience, how you should feel about Superman.

>>90827818
>The only thing that was damaged from his inexperience was the 711 in Smallville.
Metropolis was ruined, and while I know he didn't mean to intentionally ruin it, he still was in a battle he was unfamiliar with having ever before, and as a result, was less cautious. It was his first time fighting on a scale that large, and he wasn't mature enough to balance saving the city or defeating Zodd, and I'm okay with that as long he learns from his mistakes and improves. But, seeing as he died...whoops.

>That Clark had no part in except the crashing of the scout ship.
I'm not saying that the destruction is awful. I'm one of the few who got behind that. I actually think it's better his first fight was messy, and yes, I do acknowledge that.

>The ramifications of Aliens existing is far different the the public's reaction to any of the above.
Then make him become Superman BEFORE Zodd and co. arrive. In fact, it'd be neat if Clark, starting to become a hero on Earth doing smaller things first attracted General Zood to the planet. Then, you can have the whole "is he doing more harm than good" debate, and further elaborate on the topic in the sequel after his first big fight, which proved to be messy (and that he hopefully grows from to do his best so it never hapens again).

>>90828284
I'm just saying that their irational thinking is undoubtedly one of the many reasons while the film could be seen as flawed. And really....why didn't Superman stabe Doomsday from the back? Is there a reason he couldn't? Why'd he HAVE to die when everyone could've lived? Why make Clark die so early in this whole universe, too? Why not spend more time clearing up who he is for audiences, because clearly, the large majority is still fuzzy on it.

>it never tells you, the audience, how you should feel about Superman.
Not on a personal level, no...but in everything else? Yeah, I think they do. Again, everyone else is more defined than he is for that reason.

>>90829235
>Why make Clark die so early in this whole universe, too?

Snyder doesn't care for Clark Kent or his supporting cast.

>>90829235
>Then make him become Superman BEFORE Zodd and co. arrive

Dude he was literally searching for the scout ship. Which alerted Zod.

>why didn't Superman stabe Doomsday from the back? Is there a reason he couldn't?

The reasons as follows
-Heat of battle
- Location of the heart
-KRYPTONITE POISONING

>>90829235
> I'm okay with that as long he learns from his mistakes and improves. But, seeing as he died...whoops.

But he did improve, never did anything like that happen again. Even with his fight with Doomsday he made sure the city was clear.


>I'm just saying that their irational thinking is undoubtedly one of the many reasons while the film could be seen as flawed. And really....why didn't Superman stabe Doomsday from the back? Is there a reason he couldn't? Why'd he HAVE to die when everyone could've lived? Why make Clark die so early in this whole universe, too? Why not spend more time clearing up who he is for audiences, because clearly, the large majority is still fuzzy on it.


The majority really arent fuzzy on it, its just a few who harp over this. They were thinking rationally, Wonder Woman had Doomsday bound so he couldn't escape, Batman was weakening him with his kryptonite, and Superman knew he was the only one fast enough to get the spear and come back, and he is fucking Superman, his first thought is saving the world not protecting himself.

You just wanted them to act autistically rationally, and think and act how YOU wanted them to.

>>90829291
>Doesnt care for clark
>makes him the reason for the Justice League and everyone else being a hero again

kek what? Your own logic is breaking under the weight of its retardation.

>>90829373
I'm talking about the civilian identity, fanboy, not about Snyder doubling the Jesus imagery....again.

>>90829373
Why are Snydercucks always writing in such an insecure manner?

Also shit reading comprehension.

>>90829408
I think Snyder understands that Clark and Superman are one in the same and aren't separate people.

>>90829235
>Why make Clark die so early in this whole universe

Face it, death of superman is a shitty but effective story of Superman. Also it proved how selfless and ' just a guy ttying to do the right thing' kinda guy Supes is to the earth.

When he resurrects in JL he will become the Jolly ol' Supes we all like

So go rewatch MoS and BvS and stop whining abou NOT MUH

>>90829445
>shit reading comprehension
>when there was no context at all to know he was talking about the civilian identity


idk man, you are the one who seems insecure, especially when the guy who posted it

>>90829408
already responded to it...

>>90829373
>makes everything revolve around superman
>when it is basically "batman extended universe"
>and superman is (after galdot) the least charismatic character in it.

>>90829453
Are you really autistic? Having a "civilian" identity has nothing to do with it. Anon is talking about Superman doesn't having friends apart from his mother and his first girlfriend, and barely talking with any other character.

>>90829479
Boy, you look mad.

>>90829482
Even SS ( batman extended universe) form b
to response beings like Supes and people still complain. my fucking god....

Since everyone under the overpass is already dead, I really don't see why Clark didn't at least save his dad.

>>90829573
It was Batman that had a cameo there, along with his villains being the center of the marketing.

Batman will show up on WW too.

Harley got an spin off based on her.

Nightwing will have an spin off.

So far, Batman will appear on everyone of their movies.

>>90829477
But the friggin Death fo Superman in the second movie is a waste... You think that'd come later, right? That's like having The Dark Knight instead being a poorly adapted Knightfall....or The Dark Knight Rises after Begins. And I'm not complaining about NOT MUH, because I think both films could've worked the way they were had more changes and better hindsight been applied. Like, Man of Steel could have been great with it's structure, but it's just these strange choices that confuse people. For example...I'm okay with the end. I understand that Supes killed Zodd. He had too, really... I just think it needed to brew in the crockpot for a little longer.

>>90829353
But he did improve, never did anything like that happen again. Even with his fight with Doomsday he made sure the city was clear.
This I actually do agree upon.

>You just wanted them to act autistically rationally, and think and act how YOU wanted them to.
So you're telling me that Superman knew he didn't have to die to kill Doomsday with the Kryptonite, but chose to? Because that's not good writing, unfortunately. If it were better, they'd have put Superman in a situation where he'd be trapped. Like said, if Doomsday was about to kill Clark and win, he could've given one of them a nod, motioning them to kill him to kill Doomsday. There's just a million ways that they could've done the final scene and sacrifice of Superman more meaningful instead of him deciding to kill himself when he doesn't need to.

I think the problem is Snyder ironically thought too hard rather than didn't think hard enough. I mean, the latter definitely happened in some areas too, but I can tell Snyder really did put his all in the film...it's just that he should've re-evaluated more of his choices.

>>90829695
After BvS theatrical cut and SS, i just want a director driven , WB infuluence-free movie about ANY character.

There is talks about MoS 2 with Matthew vaughn - so at least they are taking Supes seriously.

And we are getting WW ang Aquaman movies.

>>90829888
WW looks awful, like SS and BvS.

>>90829519
he does have friends though, Pete and Lana both come to his funeral. They just werent focused on much in the movie.

>>90829864
>So you're telling me that Superman knew he didn't have to die to kill Doomsday with the Kryptonite, but chose to?

No, just his death was never on his mind, his mind was focused on protecting people and he did that as best and as quickly as he could.

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>>90830063
Seriously nigga? "They never talk or have fun, or friendship moments, but they showed up on the funeral so it's okay and clark's supporting character are well represented"?

>>90829864
>But the friggin Death fo Superman in the second movie is a waste... You think that'd come later, right?

No. Death os superman arc done bc sales were dropping and its just pure shock-value. What made it memorable (in my humble opinion) stories that came after.
Movie used DoS to compleate Clarks character arc. When he comes back He will be like mix of Superbro and Superdad (Superman Reborn)

>I just think it needed to brew in the crockpot for a little longer.
>I'm okay with the end. I understand that Supes killed Zodd. He had too, really...

Again no. you did not undertand the end of the movie...

Zod says Supes took away the only thing Zod had by destroying scout ship.Supes pleads the guy to stop. Zod tells him NEVER. there is literally noting more to say.

>>90829969
Im not super hopefull or anything , WW1 scenes m,ight save it. We shall see.

>>90830098
Okay. So he was just stupid due to bad writing. Gotcha.

>>90825960
Fucking this. Now I'm sad.

>>90824622

Yeah I think he had some good lines and moments and was a good character, but his decision to sacrifice himself was unnecessary and I think they could have used him being alive for the rest of the movie. I'd like to see him and Zod talking.