Biggest Mary Sue in Marvel

>>90781587
Its a tough call considering how many there are over at Marvel
>Miles Morales, can one shot everybody with Venom Blast and constantly gets his dick stroked for doing nothing
>Moon Girl, smartest person in the Marvel Universe because fuck you thats why
>Riri, built an iron man suit for shits n giggles and got praised for doing jack shit in Civil War 2
>New Hawkeye

>>90781679
>>90781587
No wonder why /co/ don't like these characters.

>>90781679

leave katehawk out of this, she is a good girl

>>90781934

i like kamala, she actually has a personality

simon baz and jessica cruz are way better than any of marvel's modern minority heroes tho

>>90781679
I'd add Wiccan, who's superpower is reality bending to make his life like bad fanfiction.

Depends on who's writing and when. Right now? Yeah probably America because the writer is obviously using that book as a mouthpiece and literally has a page talking about how everyone likes her.

Not because of her powers, or her lesbianism or whatever. Just because the current writer is a shit.

Ever? Probably something Claremont wrote his fetishes into.

So many forced mantles...


I'm going to go out on a limb and say Fem Thor.

If Miles Morales counts, him too.

>>90781934
Bait as it might be, we can't stand every new is a minority just for the sake of it.

Or how these people are all powerful, super this, greatest that ever for no particular reason except Marvel can say their fictional universes greatest "blank" is anything but a straight white male, and is in fact probably a minority female lesbian just to be extra social justicey.

>>90782206
Plus he was created to be a Heinberg's perfect self insert. Gay, Jewish, the son of one of his favourite characters, hot space prince charming boyfriend, plus the power to do fucking anything he wants because "fuck off, I do what I want".

I really, really hate Wiccan.

>>90781705
>>90781934
Hey fuck you, I like Robbie Reyes and Kamala before she went full retard

>>90781679
Miles Venom Blast is super overpowered for sure. Bendis sure is stroking himself off over his OC.

Moon Girl was originally a white woman under EC Comics. Black washing anyone? I hate her costume and stories. My man Devil Dinosaur got dragged in as well. :(

>>90781934

If they made original characters that are minorities and aren't Mary Sues I wouldn't care.

>>90782439
I love Robbie Reyes. I wish Marvel would give him a good writer and not make shit stories about him

>>90782485
>Implying anyone these days gives a shit about original characters that don't have a legacy name attached to them, black or not

>>90782547
>I wish Marvel would give him a writer and actually make stories about him
FTFY. If you havent noticed, hes barely appeared in his own solo book, which has just been canceled

>>90782563
I really liked Echo/Ronin from the Bendis run of Daredevil.

>>90782636
I know! I was super excited when they announced his new book. "Four on the floor" is the worst ghost rider comic arc I've read.

They shafted him. Now we have to wait another two years for a ghost rider run. There's actually some interesting nuggets in the story though. I want to know more about his power increasing.

>>90781679

Miles isn't that bad since he actually comes off as likable and down to earth. He's a very pleasant, enjoyable character who, IRL, would be bearable to hang around at the worst. Just nerf the venom blast already and he's pretty much fixed.

America Chavez is by far the worst. Everyone fawns over her despite her not having any real likeable or enjoyable personality traits. That opening montage of her book where everyone kisses her ass is just embarrassing, especially when she goes and acts like a complete tard for the entire issue, disproving all of that buildup.

As for the rest of Marvel really you can argue that a lot of characters get more than what they deserve in terms of storyline pushes, but I don't see that as a flaw with the characters, I see that as an unfortunate result of event culture. Kamala and Miles and everyone else shouldn't be front-and-center in massive events until they've already had a chance. Miles being a major player in CWII and fucking Secret Empire after Secret Wars was just overkill, for example.

>>90782318
Whereas his mother had to struggle with her powers, Wiccan has total control and it's a cake walk for him.

It's high time sneaky old Uncle Chthon paid Billy a visit.

>>90782703
Anon do me a favor and describe Miles character

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>>90782485
Geez, i wonder why marvel doesn't create more original characters instead of legacies.

>>90781587
her name is america chavez, not mary sue

you even said so in your post

idiot

>>90781679
Kate is okay but otherwise this is correct.

>>90781679
Would /co/ like Moon Girl more if she was a sidekick to Moon Knight

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>>90781587
It's Doom.

>>90781934
Pet peeve alert.
It annoys me Americans use "mayo" as a "whiter than anything" word. Proper home made mayo is pretty yellowish, but I wouldn't expect fatsos on the scooter line of the McDonald's drive-in to know that.

>>90782739

Just a humble, ordinary kid who wants to do the right thing with the incredible amount of power he's been given. He's very friendly, outgoing, and supportive of his peers. He's also down-to-earth and realistic, kind of like the mythical "boy next door".

In other words he's basically the classic teen hero archetype.

>>90782747
You're ignoring characters like
Sentry
Silk
Runaways
Maria Hill
Fantimex

Marvel can make good new characters when they try.

Don't even bring up that dumb ghetto character. I hate the Nuhumans

>>90782805
You basically described 90% of superheroes. Now tell us how Miles stands out among the rest.

>>90782755
Nice b8 m8

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>>90781587
>Who is the biggest Mary Sue in Marvel /co/?

Groot

Look at this motherfucker. Look at this shit. I fucking hate this motherfucker with all of my heart. I am so fucking sick of his bullshit pessimistic attitude, his "clever" quips, and everybody kissing his fucking ass because "xD he's a cool tree guy". Fuck Groot, I would throw him in the goddamn wood chipper and repurpose the remains for toilet paper which I would wipe my asshole with and flush down the toilet, right along with the shits, because Groot is nothing but the goddamn biggest piece of shit to ever fucking exist

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>>90782856
>sentry
>silk
>good

>>90782856

I don't dislike Silk but come on dude, not having "spider" somewhere in her name doesn't mean she's not girl Spider-Man

>>90782883
not the same guy, but I saw a panel where he was talking about how he didn't /want/ to be known as the 'Black Spiderman', he wanted to be 'Spiderman'

so he has a modicum of self-awareness

>>90782801
Doom is great but constantly gets his ass kicked by everyone. He's powerful but no Mary Sue

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>>90782886
On that note: new challenger.

Blue Marvel as Kevin Grevioux's "I thought this character up as a kid. Does it show?" is a strong contender because of the fine powerlevels obsession.

>>90782883

He doesn't have to in order to avoid being a mary sue. Hell, being generic makes him the opposite of that.

>>90781587

Two possibilities:

1. All of them. All capeshit is Mary Sues. That is the fucking point.

2. None of them. That term only works for fanfiction.

Every new marvel character is a mary sue.

>>90782805
Not really helping your case anon. Hes basically a less interesting Peter, if that

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>>90782907
This motherfucker is bomb as fuck.

>>90782805

That's not really saying anythin, at least not when it comes to having a protagonist that actually engages you.

At least back in Ultimate he had the stigma of being seen as a Spider-Man knockoff and having to struggle with honouring Peter's memry. Here in 616 he's got nothing, one day he dressed as black Spider-Man and here we are.

>>90782964
Blue Marvel is trash

>>90783021
>>90782984

Again, not a mary sue, though, which is what we were discussing.

>>90782931
He saved the multiverse and was told by some cosmic entity that if he ruled the Earth it would be the best place ever. And they were right.
Maybe he jobs a lot (on the count of being a villain), but that's due to his one and only character flaw: hubris. And even that is just another way of saying too ambitious, which is barely a flaw.
He also has a win over his arch-enemy that no other villain could claim: Reed owes him his daughter's life, and she loves Doom more than her dad. No amount of jobbing can erase that.

>>90782969
I always measure powers of superheroes to each other. If you compare a hero to a human yeah they all op.

>>90783060
Mary Sue is not a powerlevel thing you retard.

>>90783034

I don't think the guy who asked you to describe Miles was talking about the mary sue thing, but your claim that he was enjoyable.

He's not a Mary Sue that's for sure, at least not when pretty much every new character gets the same "suddenly showed up and the entire world loves them" treatment. He's just uninteresting.

>>90782103
ayyyyyooooo

>>90783113

He's enjoyable in the sense that he's not fucking America Chavez

the bar is very, very low for Marvel

>>90783036
Still not really a Mary Sue. All his stories have always felt good, and not forced or ham fisted. Hickman really did him justice in Secret Wars.

>>90781587
>America Chavez
seguro que en venezuela la adoran cuando no se estan muriendo de hambre

>>90782747
ain' no one wanted mosaic tho

>>90783090
>Mary Sue is not a powerlevel thing you retard.
It's a fanfiction character that gets the fanfiction story focus instead of the canon characters. It's about how a character takes the focus.

All protagonists are Mary Sues because of course the damn story is about them.

Now in a big arc, if a brand new character starts taking away focus from established characters, yes I can see that as being Mary Sueish. But they can't be Mary Sues in their own titles because the titles are supposed to be about them.

Also, in a canon work, eventually it just becomes about how new characters eventually displace old ones a lot. And sometimes what's actually happening is a story should have just ended a long time ago because there's really nothing more to say about it and people get bored.

>>90783163

Well I can't argue with you there.

>>90783163
Marvel is going down the shitter.
All the writers just write glorified tumblr fan fiction. I stopped respecting Marvel when CM Punk wrote a comic.

>>90783172
>All his stories have always felt good, and not forced or ham fisted.
That's like, your opinion, man.

>>90781934
I'm not white and I hate these fucks. I liked old KAte.

>>90781587
I think the thing that bothers me about America is that I don't get what exactly she's supposed to be representative of.

Sort of the same thing with Robbie Reyes. A California Mexican who has a muscle car and is just above his environment. No cousins that get him in trouble or issues with his da and uncles trying to provoke his machismo.

People aren't stereotypes but you have to include broad strokes a little bit

>>90782936
Did she turn Groot gay as well?

>>90781679
At least katehawk has flaws. She consistently fucks up, jumps into situations without full understanding of what's going on, and makes assumptions.

Only things she's really good at is shooting a bow and being plucky.

>>90782936
Racist as fuck.

>>90781587
I can deal with bullshit ridiculous powers; I can't deal with retarded writing and authors who apparently forget what their character's main fucking power is.

America Chavez broke up with her girlfriend in the space of a fucking page becuause said girlfriend didn't want to leave her entire life in NYC behind so America could go to SUPER SPECIAL COLLEGE FOR SPECIAL PEOPLE. America can fucking teleport whenever she wants. This isn't even the only plot hole in the first issue, and I guarantee you it was only done so America could get frisky with another girl next issue guilt-free.
A USA-themed intergalactic brown lesbian superhero should be the raddest shit ever but Gabby Rivera somehow managed to fuck it up.

America is particularly bad because she is literally appropriating a culture and people still claim she's representative

>>90782964
>I thought this character up as a kid. Does it show?

Blue Marvel really only exists to be a black power fantasy, doesn't he? A star athlete ex-marine super scientist who becomes one of the earliest and most powerful heroes on the planet and befriends an all-seeing cosmic being, but white people are still oppressing him somehow.

>>90781587
>the biggest Mary Sue
Did the meaning of this word change all of the sudden?

>>90781679
>got praised for doing jack shit in Civil War 2

Didn't everyone do jack shit in Civil War 2?

>>90783206
It's mostly about self insertion into the universe, which can happen in comics simply because there's so many authors rotating in.

Calling a character a Mary Sue because you don't like that they take attention away doesn't cut it. I hate X-23 and they shit her into everything. She's still not a Mary Sue. Well not in that sense. I don't know how she's written now. Even taking the mantle of Wolverine doesn't make her a Mary Sue even if it is retarded.

Miles isn't a Mary Sue. Until a black guy comes in and writes him beating up Peter and fucking Mary Jane and everyone loves him for it.

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>>90781587
Nick Spencer

>>90781679
Nah, I think America really hits about every trait possible for a Mary Sue. Presented as uniquely gifted, everyone loves her and cannot stop talking about how great she is, her negative traits (being a cunt) are shown as positives, even has the ultra special unique background (brown lesbian from a universe full of brown lesbians that was a utopian wonderland).

Miles shows up a lot but isn't shilled in universe as the greatest hero ever. Moon Girl doesn't quite have the shilling though she's probably the closest. Nobody remembers Riri anymore. Hawkcunt is basically Forced Meme: The Character.

The only one who maybe matches up to America is Moon Girl but I'd say America edges her out and actually is an unexaggerated Mary Sue. Or I guess Maria Susana.

>>90783180
You're proving his point. Mosaic's an original character, something fans say they want out of Marvel's minority characters, and nobody even bothered to give him a chance because "lol who cares gonna go read me X-23verine and then yell NOT MUH some more".

>>90784196
Haha. Spencer BTFO.

>>90784284
That's what I think. I read America #1 and it read like dog shit. She is literally a Mary Sue.

>>90782747

>he's inhuman

That was the first nail the coffin. Inhumans are a tainted brand because they're against x-men

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>>90781587
You just don't get it, /co/!

>>90781587
It used to be that I called Whor the biggest Mary Sue but Marvel outdid themselves with Moon Girl and Riri. Don't know about Chavez but I'll be avoiding her like the plague.

>>90784580
This garbage cannot flop quickly enough.

>>90784580
While still forced, I did buy the explanation someone on here gave for it. That we do have language like "holy shit" related to body functions and gendered ones wouldn't be as odd for them.

But I do wonder why they menstruate if it's an all female society. Seems like reproduction should be vastly different.

>>90782801
>muh european food
Nobody gives a shit.

>>90781679
How's the new Bishop Hawkeye? I liked the Fraction run though the Bishop parts were pretty meh.

>>90781679
>>Riri, built an iron man suit for shits n giggles and got praised for doing jack shit in Civil War 2
Not
>shits and niggles
I'm disappointed, anon.

>>90784735
As a woman, getting rid of menstruation would be a top priority in any utopian society. It's messy, annoying, and costly in terms of bodily resources.

>>90782969
You're an idiot.

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>>90781587
Who else

>>90782856
>Sentry
Fuck off, m8.
He was good only as a part of Jenkins' non-canon mini.
When they brought him to 616 he was a pile of shit no one knew what to do with.

>>90784196
>>90784422
Not really, the 'slam' was so shitty that when I read it I thought it was a picture of the first guy getting BTFO since I don't know how twitter works.

>>90785081
I love whenever brings up 'the right way' to make food, or 'the best' kind of whatever dish.

It always ends with people being confronted with the fact no one outside their area gives two fucks about their local oodle kaboodle recipe, or has ever heard of their 'world famous' and variant of something.

>>90781587
>Mary Sue: Any character i do not like

>>90781679
So by this logic if they were all White they would cease to be Mary sues

>>90781934
Pretty much. Their only argument against these characters is "hurr , they ain't White". Then read something else, you know like the 50 billion White super heroes that do exist?

>>90782964
Like Superman the original Mary Sue

>>90785256
In my experience whenever men talk about genetic engineering they always go on about greater strength, super-intelligence and the like. For women the first thing out of their mouths is usually "GET FUCKING RID OF PERIODS."

>holy menstruation
You mean like how in the middle ages diseases like Smallpox were just "god's will"?

>>90781934
>implying /co/ is even 80% white

There are a lot of non-white people here. Hell, I'm not white and I hate America Chavez.

>>90782922

He's a black kid in a black costume, he'll always be the black spider-man. He could have been ultimate spider-man but that universe doesn't exist anymore, he really needs his own code name

>>90785554
Oh put it back in the deck you baiting faggot

>>90785654
*and creating catgirls

>>90781587
Oh snap, I've been waiting for this.
My vote is simple, the shittiest retcon of a character.
Blue Marvel
But fuck the new Marvel PC squad. I can't think of a single interesting new character or story like these.

>>90785386
So you're an idiot?

>Threads like this are why /co/ is fucking unreadable these days. Used to be able to blame it on summer but this faggotry is a year round thing. All because fags don't want to stay on their contaminant board and feel the need to politicize every fucking thing.

>>90785720
Just imagine if your father had only shot you into a condom , a napkin or onto your mothers tits, we could be spared your faggotry.

>>90784580
Oy vey

>>90785591
>>90785591
It has more to do with politics and culture clash then racism friend. When you tell the majority to get out of the way it's your turn, it's not going to end well for you.

See: Our current president

>>90785822
How am I the faggot in this situation?

>>90782777
Absolutely fucking not. Moonie needs to stay away from all this legacy shit as much as possible.

>>90785908
You'd know if you had anything approaching self awareness

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>female character is good at anything

>OMG MARY SUE

>minority character is good at anything

>OMG TOKENISM

>white male character is good at everything

>HOLY SHIT SUCH A BADASS, BEST HERO EVER, MORE COMICS ABOUT TONY STARK INVENTING 50 PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINES A DAY PLEASE

>>90782883

Having a generic personality doesn't mean he's devoid of one.

>>90783036
>she loves Doom more than her dad

Ouch. That's painful.

>>90785956
Shit characters
Everybody loves them
Have immense power
Ham fisted into stories because "lol lets be pc"

Fuck off mate

>>90782747
Meh, fuck the Inhumans.

>>90785956
Look /co/ is easily baited, but at least try anon. These characters are shit and Marvel has been shit for some time unfortunately

>>90785956
In America's comic she is portrayed as this perfect being who is constantly being praised by veteran heroes and characters who never met her, it's so integrated into the issue there's an entire page where it shows random people flat out worshipping her.

She pretty much acts like a cunt the entire issue, in particular with her girlfriend yet at no moment the plot, the tone or the dialogue puts a shade on any of her actions. She is portrayed as a perfect being, adored by all and who can't do no wrong.

The only moment in the entire issue she is taken back a notch is when she can't complete the bizarre as fuck test the teacher gives her. And she pretty much no sells it as soon as that thing ends, doesn't get her bothered at all or anyone cares about she failing to do as the teacher asked. In fact, I think she asked a general question to her class and then turned the question on her way because America got late, I'm still counting this as a "flaw" and "problem" she had to face.

The only other thing in said issue that even gets close to a character imperfection/conflict is America longing to hug her two mothers in a panel.

Is she a Mary Sue though?

I'd nominate the entire comic as an author strange power fantasy. Everything is weird, but very specific and not a single character bats an eye for the "radical women and intergalactic tribal revolutionaries" class, or the fact that the very first people America randomly meets in college was a raping band of Lesbians who sang about becoming doctors and biologies, one page after a map that shows that said faculty has no classes on the things they are singing about.

>>90782907
>Sentry
>Not good

Better than pretty much most legacy characters being pushed over on marvel recently. All of his mini series were well crafted and explored his character well.

>>90785081
Then don't eat or talk about mayonnaise.

>>90785491
I'm talking original, not some fancy variant. That's the thick paint-like paste you guys eat.

>>90782736
Ewing did make him suffer a bit

but there needs to be more

>>90782922
Why the fuck does he want to be know as "Spider-man" now that he is in a place where that name and his legacy has a completely different context?

I know the answer because Bendis can further the legacy of the character and secure a paycheck, but I'm posting this question anyway.

>>90781587
Captain America

>>90786145
The "she's the best

Sue, Wanda, Ororo, and Janet had to work their asses off and wade through shit, meanwhile these new bitches get praised without having to fight for anything.

>>90786114
Not that person but while lots of characters are bad, that term, "Mary Sue", is pretty much worthless now. It was at one point such a common and incredibly specific fanfic phenomenon that it had utility when talking about fanfic. Basically a fan writer putting themselves into the story and having their favorite characters fall in love with them and be in awe of them and it was everywhere. Ironically now though that's mostly been replaced by "ReaderXCharacter" fics which I guess are at least straightforward and honest about just being about inserting into the canon.

Meanwhile "Mary Sue" came to have so many sometimes strongly conflicting definitions that it became utterly worthless. Instead, say what your problem with the character is. Is the character just like the creator, like most of Woody Allen's characters/protagonists? Then say that. Do you think the character is OP? Then say that. Is the character boring because they seem too perfect? Then say that. Is the character VERY flawed, but the other characters don't acknowledge it? Is the character a new character and you think the writers are focusing too much on them at the expense of more established characters? Then say that. Is the character the original protagonist but you think the other characters' lives still revolve too much around them to be believable? Then say that. Do you think the character is a cheap excuse for audience self-insert like lots of anime harem protagonists? Then say that. Do you think too many other characters fall in love with the character to be realistic? Then say that.

>>90783036
> Doom saved his daughter.

> Death's Head saved his son.

Reed should be more grateful to bad guys.

>>90784580
>Can't help but hear that in Phaelous's voice.

Imagine you start a job, and the manager gives you Employee of the Year, on your first day.

That's what Marvel does with these characters.

>>90786688
This

>>90781587
Its got to be the YASS QUEEN. Sure she's great and all, but she's the leader of Alpha Flight, the leader of the Ultimates, the leader of the Avengers. And she's "the most popular hero on earth"

Sure she has the occasional moment of weakness, but considering how hard Marvel is pushing her to be the new face of their comics (no matter how bad her runs sell) just shows how much of a Sue she is.

>>90781587
she looks cute here

>>90787179
We appreciate your input, anon.

>>90781934
But I'm not white and I NOPE'd hard at the second page of America #1 storyme

>>90781934
Not being white makes you love shitty writing? I guess I need to get with the program.

>>90782936
>doesn't like Latverians
Groot a shit.

>>90784580
THAT'S NOT HOW PUERTO RICAN PEOPLE TALK
THAT'S NOT HOW WOMEN TALK

>>90785783
Who are you quoting, newfag?

>>90782805
That's 90% the description of Padme in the RLM reviews.

>>90786211
This is the only correct answer. Everyone in the marvel universe think Steve is always right about everything and that's why captain Hydra has been able to get away with so much. But he's a white guy so it's all good.

>>90786624
Yeah, Mary Sue is like the term lazy people use to avoid attempting critical thought.

>>90787449
One of the original heroes. He's been fighting the good fight since WW2. He's been the moral center for the MU since forever. Stands up for America and Justice. He's the leader of the Avengers and a founding member. He also sacrificed his life for the greater good

No though it's just because he is white. You're a fucking moron.

>>90783516
His Uncle is constantly trying to get Robbie to constantly commit murder and berates him for not taking action
If anything I'd say it's a neat spin on the familial stereotypes for hispanic characters

>>90781934
Black guy here. Marvel;s new female characters are incredibly obnoxious and narcissistic.

>>90786624
Labels make life easier. Labels define us. What you would rather do is describe a person by listing their genetic code, since that would be more accurate than saying "He's a man" or "She's white."

Words change meaning over time. That explains why we use the word "faggot" to describe someone like you, rather than a bundle of sticks.

"Mary Sue" may have meant something specific at one point. But that doesn't matter now. What matters is that Marvel sucks and these characters are all bad.

>>90782747
Maybe they should make some good new characters.

>>90787632
Words also sometimes "evolve" into a meaning so vague that it's lazy and that's what "Mary Sue" is. It's like "bad". "That character is bad." Okay. Why? Also, you mean "evil," poorly written," what? That's the whole point.

>>90785654
>For women the first thing out of their mouths is usually "GET FUCKING RID OF PERIODS."
The simplest thing to do would be to engineer a new race of genetically and sexually functional futanaris.

>>90785256
Seconded.

>>90782747

In principle you're right. You make a perfectly valid point. This said, tying this character to the Inhumans when Marvel has done everything in their power to make their fans hate anything Inhumans-related was a pretty foolish decision.

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>>90781934
But /co/ loves Black Manta

>>90784284
>Hawkcunt is basically Forced Meme: The Character.

She was great in Matt Fraction's Hawkeye series, in large part because she was depicted as kind of arrogant and prone to getting in over her head. Believable flaws make characters fun and interesting. Nonsense like the bit in America #1 where Kate is described as "the REAL Hawkeye" badly misses the point of the appeal of the character.

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>>90782886
this

i bet they are going to turn him into that shitty "kid form" he's going to be in gotg 2 for movie synergy

jesus

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>>90786604

Yeah, but she literally WAS the Young Avengers!

>>90784284
>brown lesbian from a universe full of brown lesbians that was a utopian wonderland
That's...

That's an exaggeration right? This isn't a real thing right?

>>90787266
t. White boi

>>90789661

kate is exempt because Young Avengers is the best.

>>90789789
Well they weren't all brown lesbians, some of them where white.

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>>90789789
No, no it is not. Look up utopian parallel should tell you all that you need to know.

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>>90789653
No shit Sherlock.

>>90789604
Manta is such a fucking asshole, and god help me I love every minute of it.

>>90787390
She's not actually Puerto Rican, or any real world kind of Latino, she's from fan fiction land as envisioned by a gay reality warped. Why he would create a lesbian utopia and such an pleasant person as america instead of beefcake universe is beyond me.

>>90782642
David Mack created her

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>>90781587
Depends on the era.

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>>90782964
>>90783028
>>90783933
>>90785603
>>90785729
You all have terrible opinions and should feel bad.
Blue Marvel is literally the best Marvel hero created in the last 15 years.

>>90790516
I hate that page.
It somehow made me dislike Cage's character as well Blue Marvel.

>>90789604
Manta is one ball of hate and I love every second of it.

>>90790516
>"you ran with the bloods"
>not the rivals
How the fuck do you not even know the origin of a character you're writing?

>>90785956
I thought zorro was Asian?

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>>90783657
Don't forget cute

>>90786634
Reed is actually pretty consierate to his villains.

>>90790611
Please -- this doesn't even qualify as a retcon. Rivals are Bloods now, who cares?

>>90789661
Wiccan is the core of the team more than Kate, desu.

>>90787390
>>90790182
The author is puretorican though. And yes, she make us look bad.

>>90787390
>THAT'S NOT HOW WOMEN TALK
Basically every white female comedian has talked like this at some point.

>>90782703
>especially when she goes and acts like a complete tard for the entire issue, disproving all of that buildup.
that might be wanted- like Carol is publically a super-loves hero but "in the business" they all hate her guts

>>90785956
The thing is white characters have to struggle and get their ass beat. Batman, Superman, Real Thor, Iron Man, they've all have gotten total brutal ass beatings at one time or another.

When did Kamala get an ass kicking? When did America? When did Moon Girl? When did Riri?

These minority woman power fantasies are never seriously threatened, unlike white superheroes who constantly face life or death situations.

When was the last time Kamala fought tooth and nail for her life? Now compare that to Batman. Or Captain America. Or Superman, or anybody.

>>90786624
>>90787489
>>90787632
>>90787772
>What does Mary Sue mean

Fanfiction can't do any-fucking-thing right. Even the terms it invents are garbage.

People should just use the term "writer's pet" which is what people that read books use to describe a character protected from the realistic consequences of their actions by the author.

>>90790090
Imagine the shit storm that would happen if America was a boy from an all-male mostly white utopian society.

>>90784735
>Prodigy! What the holy semen are you doing here?

Yeah it doesn't work for male gendered stuff either. Just don't do it.

And "what the holy shit are you doing here" wouldn't work either, for fuck's sake.

>>90787795
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

>>90791133
Mary Sue has the problem that everyone who uses it tries to broaden the definition. It started out as a very specific, recurring archetype of Star Trek fanfic OC. Then people started applying it to fanfic in general. Then they started attempting to shoehorn it into official works, and that's where everything got fucked up, because practically none of the original definition works anymore.

>>90785729
In his original mini, I agree.
But under Ewing he developed as a character.

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>>90787795

>>90791099
Female characters NEVER suffer like male characters do. Male characters can get lingering close ups of getting punched in the face, their bones broken, their friends and family taken from them, the bad guy threatening everything they ever loved.

Women characters get a quirky attitude and the unconditional love of everyone around them.

Maybe each gender gravitates toward different power fantasies? Men want fantasies of struggle and conflict wile women want fantasies of acceptance and being loved and valued?

I don't know. But the men's fantasy tends to far, far more entertaining to read than the women's.

>>90781934
>implying white guys even browse /co/ anymore regarding its current state

>>90783036
Reeds a shit though to be fair. I dont think anyone prefers him to Doom.

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>>90791217
>>90791099
>>90781587


This is Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison is a clone of Thomas Edison who is also a bird.

This is the kind of threat "quirky modern minority girl" characters deal with.

>>90785956
Tony Stark has always been written as an asshole who most people distrust, an alcoholic with authoritarian tendencies, and since the movies, a charismatic but terribly unreliable person.

He's been a dictator and a villain, and some of his plans have failed catastrophically, for him and those around him.

Compare that with the current female or minority characters we're talking about.

Now compare these characters with older female or minority characters.

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>>90791291
This is Bane. Bane put his enemy in a wheel chair.

This is the kind of threat traditional white male characters deal with.

Any fucking questions?

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>>90791309
This.

When Marvel lets Riri/Kamala/America look like this then they can stop being shit characters.

>>90791291
I have a story with a female character who suffers from loss and painful beatings in combat. I want to pitch this to a comic book company, I guess they'll neuter it...

>>90791328
>>90791291

Huh. I put some thought into this, and it's kinda true. Wonder woman has cool villains but she's a white woman. Static Shock has cool villains but he's a black man.

Yeah, if it's one thing we've learned, is that a hero's only as good as the villain in a story. And that highlights the problem with Marvel's minority mandate.

>>90791328
Why does he wear the mask?

>>90791291
I wouldn't mind that if the characters themselves weren't quirky. Would make for some nice contrast, even. See: Kaine.

>>90791425
Shit really needs to fucking stop.

>>90787138
>she's the leader of Alpha Flight
America is leading Canada?

>>90791309

Marvel has forgotten WHY people liked their heroes. It's because they're written like people, and they make mistakes LIKE people.

The new minority heroes instead have a combo of DC's approach to heroes (night flawless role models) + Marvel's tendecy to make some of their heroes annoyingly mouthy (like Spiderman without the charm). The result is something you want to strangle but can't because they're behind a force field.

>>90791400
>Wonder woman has cool villains
That is a boldfaced lie.

>>90791450
>>90791291
The thing with characters like Kamala is that on one hand they're supposed to be newb heroes trying to earn respect and figure things out. But Marvel insists that they're also equal to established characters. Kamala got on the Avengers for having 1/100 the qualifications of other heroes.

And then she tries to grab Radioactive man with her bare hand on her first team outing and burns herself like a tard.

>>90791473

I didn't say ALL of them are cool. I'm saying she HAS cool villains. Exact number is debatable yes, but I'd rather take EGG-FU over this >>90791291

>>90791456
Someone get this hothead out of here.

>>90791486
This stuff writes itself. Marvel is just sitting on wasted potential.

>>90791465
They needed characters to prop up Carol, and since she has no real supporting characters they just took a group that no one was using and threw them under the bus.

>>90791504
>>90791486
>Kamala runs into Electro/Green Goblin/Carnage

>She gets the shit kicked out of her.

>She tries to fight back and handle it like she does her other threats with quirky bravado but its not working

>She thinks she's going to die

>Other heroes save her at the last minute

Suddenly its not a game anymore. Suddenly its not fanfic fantasy team up adventures. Suddenly being a superhero is very real and very dangerous and Kamala has to decide what it means to face life-or-death trials every day.

Could this work as an arc?

>>90791577
I'd read it. Don't know if her audience would though.

>>90783206
That's not what a Mary Sue is though you fucking underage.

A Mary Sue is a self-insert character that is presented to the reader as perfect, has no true struggles or character growth, and who's story is blatant wish fulfillment without any semblance of genuine plot, with said wish fulfillment usually centering around the She's interactions and relations with fan favorite (or fan hated) pre-existing characters, and often said relationships are so blatantly meta that they completely warp other characters personalities and as well as the entirety of the pre-established story world around them.

The term comes from an old Star Trek fanfiction wherein a self-insert named Mary Sue committed all the above sins in such a spectacular manner that her name became the much misused by-word that it is today. Mary Sues are not exclusive to fanfiction, however, and can be a problem in any piece of fiction, especially in pre-established fictional universes.

Mary Sue is a word that has been used so much that tards just use it to mean "character I don't like," much like how people now use triggered to mean "u mad" instead of "literally shaking." in short I want normies fucking out

inb4 someone says this describes all capes, read fucking comics

>>90791625
This is why Mary Sue is a shit term. EVERY TIME someone uses it people throw bitch fits over its meaning and definition.

Bad character. Uninteresting character. Writer's pet. Mary Sue wasn't a term used during most of literature's history. Literature critique didn't NEED the term Mary Sue. It still doesn't need it.

>>90791469
>DC's approach to heroes (night flawless role models

Where'd this idea come from anyway? I mean, sure, Superman is the ultimate role model (and there's a lot to be said about the more flawed Superbro and the way he was received by fans), but I struggle to think of another DC character (outside the golden and maybe silver ages, of course) who is treated as anything near flawless.

Batman is consistently written as an insane man fighting an insane world, a necessary evil.

From the GLs, they're all terribly flawed but brave people. Hal is reckless and stupid, Guy is an absolute asshole, Kyle alternates between lack of self-confidence and a messiah complex, John is arrogant and single-minded, Simon is full of self-doubt, and Jessica has panic attacks daily.

Aquaman, Wonder Woman, the Hawks, Martian Manhunter and others work on completely different moral codes to our civilization, given their origins. They've all been written inconsistenly over the years, but a constant concept is that they don't fit in the world they're trying to protect, unlike Superman, who despite being an outsider in origin, has completely adopted the world as his own.

And so on and so forth, DC is more idealistic than Marvel, but I don't know where the "flawless heroes" thing comes from.

>>90791625
>The term comes from an old Star Trek fanfiction wherein a self-insert named Mary Sue committed all the above sins in such a spectacular manner that her name became the much misused by-word that it is today.
A Trekkie's Tale was a parody though

>>90791664
>Where did the flawless hero thing come from

Way back in the Gardner Fox JLA days everyone was basically written with the same voice and personality. The JLA member with the most personality was Snapper Carr.

I love the old Gardner Fox stories. They're adventurous and fun and entertaining. But everyone was the exact same character with different power sets.

Compare that to when Marvel started and you had guys with clearly different personalities. Spider-Man was not Reed Richards was not Namor.

That's how the stereotype came about.

>>90791693
Point?

>>90791577
People were fine when it happened to Jon in Super Sons

>>90791658
nigga if you wanted high quality literary critique what are you doing here?

>>90791658
Dude, in my country, the MS term is a pretty clear term: an almighty character who always comes off at the top and has little to no actual conflicts. Do you think things like this shouldn't be critized?

>>90791741
I don't want high quality literary critique. I want people to stop throwing walls of text at the screen debating over what "Mary Sue" means when there are plenty of better ways to express the same idea.

>>90791768
Too bad autist you don't get to control what people talk about.

>>90791708
Like I said, yeah there's the golden and silver age.

And the Superfriends I guess.

But it's been a long time since then, and it's not the case anymore.

Now, I understand the average person would know DC from Superfriends, Reeve's superman, West's Batman, Carter's Wonder Woman, etc. Even with the new movies, I don't expect them to keep up. Pop culture has that stereotype, and that's what stays.

But we're here, discussing things from what should be a point of at least familiarity with the material, yet I see the stereotype thrown about all the time.

I know I know, /co/ doesn't read comics.

>>90791715
I think it say a whole lot that Superman's 10 year old son has faced way more hardships then Kamala/Riri/America/Moon Girl combined.

DC is showing Marvel how to write the next generation of heroes.

>>90791768
>>90791752
>>90791658
>>90791625
>>90783206
Come on, stop the pedantry, we all know what we mean when we say Mary Sue:

New character, loved by everyone, faces little to no hardship, always comes out on top, is explicitely said to be better than long-established characters, both in general and at their specialties, and often is the key or has the unique ability to solve problems no one else can.

>>90791787
>It's been a long time since then and its not he case anymore

Well yeah. It's a just stereotype that Marvel has real human beans and DC has invincible autistic gods that can't into humanity. Doesn't mean its true.

DC isn't doing themselves any favors though. Normies play Injustice 2 and watch BvS. They don't read Action Comics or Super Sons.

DC has basically tainted their image. You know how people STILL say Aquaman is a useless character that can't do anything? We're going to see people talking about Superman being a boring god autist one dead Lois from going full Hitler for a long, long time.

>>90781934
Kenyan Black Here, just saying I cannot stand what is happening to Marvel, however I would definately kiss Kamala.

>>90781587
Deadpool

>>90791850
That was my whole point, if regular people who only know the stuff from old as fuck media such as Superfriends, or by videogames and hollywood think the stereotypes are true, that's fine, can't be helped.

But memes aside, we're supposed to know better when coming into these discussions.

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>>90781679
>Moon Girl, smartest person

>>90781587
Miles Morales by a long shot.

>>90781679
Someone actually made new Hawkeye enjoyable in the 'Deadpool vs. Hawkeye' run so I'm knocking off points for that.

America's push feels like Squirrel Girl's push, it will linger but it won't impact.

I'm gonna go for Miles.

>>90781587
Karnak

he went from "he can see the flaw in everything but often couldnt do anything about it" to "he can see the flaw in everything and always can exploit it"

it reminds me of the power creep of Wolverines healing factor.

>>90791217
It has happened before, but it is very rare and I really can't even recall the last time it happened. But I do distinctly remember way back in the original New Warriors Namorita got her shit REKT in a fight and it fucked her up for a while.

>>90785081
nobody asked for your fucking input

>>90792127
I think it was "currently smartest person in the Marvel Universe" when they announced that and half the big brains of the universe were AWOL.

>>90793244
Marvel has come up with an official top ten list of the ten smartest heroes. It got posted to their twitter or something.

Moon Girl is on top.
Reed is second.

I am comfortable in ignoring all of that because Moon Girl, just like Carol and America, has a severe case of tell, not show. She's only the world's smartest because "we say so, fuck you". She hasn't done jack and shit to prove it.

>>90782801
stop using so much mustard powder, its not supposed to be that yellow
unless you are making a variation on normal mayo

Does anyone think like really think that white characters are actually going to be run out of town or something? Bawahahahah, yeah right. I don't care all that much about white, black, yellow, green, and different racial identities help tell better stories. The more the merrier.

>>90793305
>Smarter than the guy that recreated the universe

Marvel deserves the ass kicking DC has been giving it in comics.

It's a shame the movies are propping up Marvel. Without them they'd probably be pressured to change their ways.

>>90793360
Anon, see
>>90791380
>>90791328
>>90791291

Our problem is that the latest crop of quirky minority girl characters are expected to be held up as equals to earlier heroes while having 1/100th their qualifications and hardships.

>>90793452
Nah, the problem is people tend to worship these characters as forms of myth or legend (Well, not really but you know what I mean). Most of the Superhero's and villains would have been dead long ago with just one well-placed bullet or whatever. So there has to be a slight suspension of belief when you read a comic, otherwise the older you get the more unhappy you're going to be with the medium.

Why would you want to take years for a character to "rise up" and get better? There simply aren't enough books, artist, writers, executive producers, etc... etc.. to put in the time to make whatever "special' character make absolute sense. If they tried to do that, then comics would be stagnant and the better stories would always be the ones that already have the powerhouses in them.

>>90790450
In what reality can Quill be considered a Mary Sur?

>>90793622
Look at some of the earliest issues of Captain America, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, whoever. Pick just about any run you like or start cold at the beginning. You'll see them bruised, beaten, stressed, their friends and family and loved ones in peril.

You'll see them fight guys capable of putting them in the ground. You won't find armies of characters sucking their dick for no reason, and odds are they'll be considered a menace or outlaw by several.

They won't fight Thomas Edison the chicken clone. They won't go to super lesbian wonder college and talk about mansplaining.

So no, it's not a matter of a character needing time to "rise up". It's a matter of quirky minority girl characters living in bubble realities where nothing seriously threatening or dangerous can happen to them.

White male characters live in worlds that can hurt them. Minority female characters don't.

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>>90784580
sounds like something the boy wonder would say during a particularly vicious cat woman fight

>holy menstruation, batman!

>>90793743
"Quirkyrican"

"Holy Menstruation"

"She's one Bad Mama Jamma"

It's like I'm reading a webcomic where the writer things having characters talk like how no one talks but being slyly aware of it is humor.

Marvel is the webcomic generation of superheroes.

>>90782218
Only everyone likes the way C-man wrote his fetishs in to the X-men. The new stuff is horrible.

>>90793720
I get it, but I don't care. Perhaps when I was younger reading the Old School books was pretty kickass. It's a new age though, so new rules. I don't want to wait forever for characters to get better over time. I mean, some will, but by and large I've read Robert Kirkman's Invincible and that was very similar to the progression you spoke us. However, mainstream comics like DC and Marvel have put up or shut up. That's just how it goes when you're two of the biggest companies in the business.

As issues with female minority characters? Go find a child who still lives with his mommy to have that argument with, I pay bills... so I'm kinda past it.

>>90782805
>humble
He bitches about respect frequently, getting annoyed that Peter would web up villains in "his turf"

>ordinary
>wants to do the right thing
>down-to-earth
>realistic
None of these actually describe anything.

>He's outgoing
Literally the quietist guy in any group he's in.

>In other words he's basically the classic teen hero archetype.
The teen hero archetype is closer to a byronic hero, which is nowhere NEAR Miles.

>>90782922
He could have made a yellow costume.

>>90789604
Manta's the best because he's so real in his absurdity.

>>90782805
>humble
"why can't i be THE Spider-man instead of BLACK Spiderman?" This was in the same issue he one shots black heart the first time.
>wants to do the right thing with the power he's given
He was introduced at first not wanting anything to do with that power. As for doing the right thing, that's questionable. During civil war he shows up to where he's supposed to kill captain america even though he was told to stay far the fuck away from there. Aside from that every hero wants to do the right thing.
> friendly and outgoing
He's awkward if anything, and he sure as hell didn't treat Rich with respect. Or spiderman seeing as he's still wearing his costume even though there's no reason to.

>>90791664
These days it's less that and more that DC characters are high concept caricatures while Marvel was always character focused.

>>90794060
>I want my characters to be on the top from the start and stay there.

Then why even read about them? There's no conflict at that point. You may as well make a book of a stick figure saying "I'm the best!" every page.

>>90783034
Not a Mary sue? Okay shit fuck, whatever you say.

You gonna keep cherry picking the comments that don't prove your point so you can defend that POS character?

He's a Mary sue because
1. everybody sucks his dick
2. he has important roles in things for no reason other than he's bendis' pet.
3. He beats every villian in one shot, including fucking blackheart, TWICE.
4. He's Spider-man only betterer
5. He fucks nearly every woman he comes into contact with
6. He has no character arc or plot points other than the stadard "you're not good enuf 2 b spiderman" until he proves himself by OHKOing some big bad to whcih the person who said that will then say something along the lines of "you r da rel spidermanz"
7. He has no supporting cast other than the fat mexican
8. His character was not affected upon being brought into the 616 because he has none.

>>90794524

You forgot the part where everyone fellates his costume as well, saying that it's way cooler than Spider-Man's, including Spider-Man himself.

>>90791217
>Female characters NEVER suffer like male characters do. Male characters can get lingering close ups of getting punched in the face, their bones broken, their friends and family taken from them, the bad guy threatening everything they ever loved.
Spider-girl nigga read a book sometime.

>>90793720
>Look at some of the earliest issues of Captain America, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, whoever. Pick just about any run you like or start cold at the beginning. You'll see them bruised, beaten, stressed, their friends and family and loved ones in peril.
OR you could pick up early Daredevil and see fucking Mike Murdock

>>90794060
>As issues with female minority characters? Go find a child who still lives with his mommy to have that argument with, I pay bills... so I'm kinda past it.
yet you're visiting this place

People already said Doom, and they are right, because it is Doom.

Fact: anyone who thinks that Doom is complex or well written is an illiterate imbecile that has never read a good book. This is why they can masturbate to the thought of a God sucking Doom's cock. For them, this is the pinnacle of literature.

>>90791217
Women care more about social threats than physical ones. That's why Iron Man was always popular with girls: his struggles are almost entirely internal.

The current crop of "diverse" heroes don't find themselves threatened in general. It's usually inconveniencing at worst, which is why they're dull.

>>90795020
who's complex or well written then?

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>>90795309
Jack Knight.

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>>90791217
What is Emma Frost?

She was put in comma by Phoenix powered Jean Grey a couple of times, put in catatonic state by Mastermind, and she had her students killed like 3 or 4 times, she was in the Genoshan genocide, had her lover killed and she was character assasinated a couple of weeks ago.


Marvel nowadays only pushes females who are Mary Sues, show no skin, arent morally grey, and often have short hair and sidecuts, but it didnt use to be that way.
There has been a kind of war on Sexy Women by Marvel, look at how both Black Cat and Emma Frost became villains again recently.
Many years before her push Carol Danvers was raped by her own son.

>>90791099
>>90791217
People actually do like the women who are fucked up more than the ones that are portrayed as perfect with no edge: http://comicsalliance.com/female-heroes-good-girl-role-models/

>What girls need — and what the Good Role Model for Girls rarely dirties herself with — is ugliness. Ugliness, in this sense, is what makes women human, rather than role models. “Ugliness” is bodies beyond Barbie, but also more than that; ugliness is a heart full of envy, hope, cruelty, anger, and fatigue. Ugliness is an interior life, and thus, an acknowledgment of women as independent beings.

>Ugliness is not present in these comics. Nothing these heroines do is truly objectionable, none of their thoughts too dirty, none of their actions ill-considered. They might trip, but they do not fall, and they certainly never swear upon doing so.

>Ugliness is beloved in men. We worship James Bonds, Walter Whites, Don Drapers, these (straight, cis, white) men who kill and connive. In them, it isn’t ugliness at all — it’s style and depth and daring. Comics love these men. They’re lovably crude clowns, like Plastic Man. They’re gruff malcontents with hearts of gold, like Bigby Wolf. They’re scarred avatars of justice, like Batman. They’ve been filling pages from the beginning, in superhero stories, Westerns, science fiction, crime, horror, and war comics. They’re the lions of the indie scene. They’re snapped up for Hollywood adaptation. These men — these cool, tough, fascinatingly twisted men — dominate.

But I think it's not just women. It's any sort of minority character. Creators get too afraid to do anything with them for fear of backlash and being called sexist/racist/homophobic/etc.

>>90795743
"Comics Alliance" is the site that drools over YAAS QUEEN and AMERICA MAMA JAMA. Fuck them.

>>90795743
And honestly you can still provide this kind of depth and still keep a tone light. Look at Gotham Academy, it's a book about a girl literally losing her mind and possibly turning into a villain and it still manages to be light-hearted and child-friendly. There's no real excuse for these characters to not have real struggles.

>>90795743
>In these failings, the Good Role Model for Girls is a manifestation of the patriarchy she claims to rebuke. Because the thing is, girls know how to be good. Good is waxed eyebrows, D-cups jiggling temptingly above hard abs, eyeliner techniques that might give you an infection but nail that “no-makeup makeup” look that guys just love. Good is AP Statistics and never complaining about the things the baseball team captain yells about your breasts from car windows. Good is always being down for a round of Halo and pizza, and always, unquestioningly, being the one to do the dishes and put away the controllers once the fun is over. Good is the unattainable ideal of womanhood — brilliant, sexy, empowered, but not like, a feminist — that we are fed from the day we are born. It isn’t just the fact that girls are all too familiar with goodness; the crux of the problem is that girls cannot escape goodness.

I knew no article on comicsalliance could be perfect.

It's interesting that the writer nails what's wrong with the "quirky fun girl character" but fails to realize that the reason people are more comfortable making male characters ugly, wrong, flawed, and weak is because men are culturally the disposable sex.

Men are expected to suffer, and be humiliated, and be called out by other people on their flaws, and take it all without a single hint of emotion.

Until society actually treats women like how they treat men we're going to drown in a sea of Quirkrican and Kamala Khans.

>>90795882
Well that's why I quoted parts of it, so you don't have to click to get the main idea. But that particular piece is good even though the rest of the site isn't. No source of media is all bad.

>>90795911
Imagine if Spider-Gwen fought Bullseye.

Imagine if America fought Red Skull.

Imagine if Kamala fought Carnage.

Imagine if suddenly these girls weren't protected from the absolute hell of being a superhero the guy characters live every single day.

>>90795992
Imagine if Hellcat fought Arcade

>>90783995
What is Civil War 2 even about?
Like, in Civil War there was a clear idea of what each side was about (Freedom vs. Safety). Civil War 2 just seems like a clusterfuck of multiple contradicting ideas within both sides.

>>90796426
It was basically the same story that Tom King's Vision run did about acting on things because of future knowledge, but it was written by Bendis and also tried to push a profiling allegory.

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>>90796526
Wow. That sounds like a lot of fun.

>>90783564
It's not gay if it's an alien.

>>90796021
She's fought worse than arcade, she's been around for decades and was part of the avengers and the defenders.

>>90791099
You're seriously comparing grown men with 50-80 years of publishing history to prepubescent and teenage girls, all created this decade?

What about Storm? Doctor Mid-Nite? Mirage? Katana? White Tiger? Misty Knight? Basically every female minority hero I can think of with more than a few years publishing history (and lets face it, there aren't many) has gone through hell and back, if they're even still alive now. Go back to /pol/.

>>90797131
yeah, but look at what happened when she fought him in Leth's book.

The same Arcade that not long ago killed and caused the deaths of a lot of teen heroes, became a harmless, tantrum-throwing joke in that book.

The way they're written currently, that's what would happen if >>90795992
The horrible murderous villains would be reduced to incompetent puppies for the heroes to beat up in a cutesy art style.

>>90797269
>Comparing grown men with teenage girls

Jon Kent has dealt with more hardships than all the Quirk-clones and he's ten.

Also look at teenage male heroes from the past. Spider-Man. Teen Titans. New Mutants.

>What about

You're proving my point. Older female minority characters didn't suck.

>>90797269
I don't agree with that guy in that it's a matter of male characters vs female characters, but rather the way Marvel is writing their new or repurposed female characters.

Consider, for example, just the first run of Jaime Blue Beetle. In that one run, 30 something issues, he was put through the wringer, his family was in danger, he learned humility, responsibility, respect for the legacy he was now part of, overcame huge challenges, gained a great supporting cast, etc.

Compare that to the way characters like America Chavez are written nowadays. I admit she only now has her own title, but she's been around for years, and she's had little to no character development. She showed up fully formed and everyone told us "she's the best of the bestest and you love her". Over and over.

>>90787528
He isn't a founder.

>>90781587

This is the only time in recent memory where you can actually apply the term Mary Sue because she is blatanly the Authors Self insert into a story. She is ignoring previous character of MAC to make her an angry strong brown Puerto Rican like herself.

>>90781679

Nope. Just bad characters.

>>90797467
>look at what happened when she fought him in Leth's book.
No, I won't be doing that.

>>90797467
Arcade was harmless tantrum throwing joke for a lot longer than he was an edgy kid killer, can't fault Leth for that, there are a hell of a lot other awful things in that book that you can fault her for though.

Why can't comic book writers just make new characters instead of rehashing the same shit with a 'slight' spin on it?

>"When I grow up, I want people to know that my interpretation of Spiderman is the best one you ever seen!"

>>90798695
I've only ever seen it posted on /co/. I know it's real, but I don't want to believe it is.

>>90799049
It's Bendis trying to be the biggest kid on the playground, he wants to usurp Lee in some sick way, and he thinks by forcing his "superior characters" he'll somehow become a household name, or do something for civil rights or something.

You honestly, could've made a comppeling character from the trash he introduced, but not with the way he writes them, Like Miles could've had his own superheor identity and struggling with the fact that he's been palced in a world he doesn't really belong in, with most of his family gone, and his girlfrined dating someone else wihtout knowing who he even is. His mentor is alive here and so he doesn't need to wear the spider mask. But nno, his small group of friends and family came with him, nothing changed, he doesn't care about kate, he fucks any white girl he can see, and he's still trying to be the bigger spider-man.

And yes, it's only white women, unless he's fucked with Kamala and I didn't see it, other than that pro porn comic.

>>90795911
You're the reason why the books I read when I was younger got their creative team changed and they immediately killed off 80% of the cast and spent the remainder of the run systematically maiming the ones left. Thanks.

Some books can be light. The problem with books like hellcat is they try to be light and socially deep at the same time so it comes off as lecturing. Like half the times a character snaps at someone for misgendering or being a mean man it reads like someone scolding a dog. Same with Squirrel Girl.

Mockingbird and America read like someone's angry revenge fantasy scribbled on a notebook that irl would never be read but feels good to get out of your system.

I like the most of Kamala's problems are on a small level. You see what happens when they try to bring her into the rest of the MU she gets preachy and you-go-girl.

>>90799285
>You're the reason why the books I read when I was younger got their creative team changed and they immediately killed off 80% of the cast and spent the remainder of the run systematically maiming the ones left. Thanks.

No, comic creators who have no respect for things that aren't part of the traditional status quo is the problem there. You can provide actual challenges without resorting to breaking all the toys.

>>90797660
>his family was in danger, he learned humility, responsibility, respect for the legacy he was now part of, overcame huge challenges, gained a great supporting cast, etc.
Her parents died saving the utopian parallel when she was a kid.
She lost all her community and all her friends. She's slowly rebuilt that with Kate, the Young Avengers, and the Ultimates. She debuted as a fully-formed superhero -- that's like complaining Rachel Grey didn't start off as an incompetent teenager with relationship issues

>>90800072
>She's from the most magical secret dimension outside of time and space and it was almost destroyed and her two superhero moms died to save it in the most tragic backstory ever, but she is still awesome and she doesn't mope about it and she's the greatest hero and everyone loves her.

Yeah

>>90800219
This.
>>90800072
Oh you mean that one thing that was explained over a page? That's like if Spiderman was this perfect awesome hero and the only explanation as to why he isn't a mary-sue, is that we're told hi uncle ben died in one page.

Show, not tell.