Why did Marvel ruin the X-Men?

movie rights

70% vs 100% blah blah blah

>>90451398
>Some five years ago
oh anon, it was far before that.

unless, are we doing another X-men timetravel story? I love to hate those

>>90451398
Blame Whedon.

Morrison spent years fixing them and putting them back to being a race trying to defend themselves instead of superheroes. Then Whedon comes along and doesn't even read the run and goes LEL THEY ARE SUPERHEROES.

>>90451398
Ike doesn't want Marvel to promote a movie franchise owned by Fox.

>>90451567
Technically it was Quesada who via spurious editorial dictates force Morrison off the book, hired Whedon and let Bendis shit on the franchise with HoM.

>>90451398
Marvel went from extremely controlling and protective of the Xmen brand, to using them to springboard their other heroes. They found themselves in the worst extremes and that has affected their stories.

They ruined the X men and the FF because they are too Jew to simply make a fantastic offer to legally buy back the rights to them. They would rather destroy it all than pay money for something they received money for from selling.

>>90451616
morrison wasn't great. i hate fags who say his run is difinitive it was a lesser version of claremont's x-man and he wasn't the only x-writer at the time.

>>90451680
If you don't think Morrison's run is amazing you have terrible taste and a very small view of the Xmen. It put them back to what they were suppose to be. Of course it was derivative but that was the point. He was saying "these are the stories the Xmen should be in."

Please enlighten us on what your favorite Xmen run is. Not Xforce. Not New Mutants. Xmen.

They could probably buy the rights to the FF for less than $1.8 billion and the X-Men for around $3.2 billion. A 5 billion dollar buy back for two franchises that could bring in over a billion per film. Disney paid $4 billion for Star Wars and I betcha they dont think it was a bad deal just 2 movies in.

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Because they don't have the movie rights.

That is literally it.

>>90451741
It's funny how highly praised Morrison's New X-Men run is here, whereas on comicbookresources message board, Morrison's run is one of the most hated.

It all began with schism

>>90451883
>CBR

The place where they have Marvel's cock in their mouths and supposedly let Marvel creators insult the users and ban anyone who talks back?

>>90451398
Movie writes.

You've got to understand though, it's not all money.

Fox are known for being dickheads about shit. Bad faith dealings, being antagonistic about shit, ect ect.

Doing shit like acting like they are open to a deal, being all receptive and coming to the table and hammering out terms, then laughing and going LULZNOPEFUCKU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at the last second.

So unlike Sony, who took the stance of 'We are making lots of money off spider-man, and feel we can make more off spider man movies then selling them back to you. No thank you.' and things just being all business, Disney is actively trying to fuck off fox.

For some time it looked like Fox would simply never surrender the rights to mutants. So fuck it, scorched earth. They already have material for hundreds of movies about them based on existing characters and stories, but we can make damn mother fucking sure they don't have one iota more.

TL:DR
Marvel wants X-men back. But Fox said 'Fuck you'. So Disney/Marvel is actively trying to fuck over Fox.

>>90451741
Not him but fave run is Claremont before inferno

>>90451883
>going on comicbookresources

Those are the type of people who ask where to "start" on a character.

>>90451398
>Some five years ago, the X-Men were one of the most critically acclaimed, beloved-by-fans franchises in comics.

That was despite Marvel's best efforts to ruin them every time they could starting with House of M.
The X-Men franchise has been broken for a long time. Bendis just showed you the rot.

>>90451949
FWIW Disney's also making unrequested live-action princess flicks to keep other studios from using the same public domain characters / stories so let's keep the whole moral upper hand thing in perspective here

>>90451398
Two words: Chuck Austen

>>90452080
Who now exec produces Steven Universe

>>90452078
I never said Disney are great guys.

I said Fox are no just refusing a deal, they are being fucking jackasses about it every time it comes up.

So Disney Corp is shitting on them great heights, doing everything it can to ruin the brand Fox owns. At the very least to stop promoting and coming up with new material for those movies.

Fox isn't just a rival with an unfavorable deal to be dealt with. They are an enemy to crush if possible.

>>90451929
>>90451975
They still buy comics, their opinions are just as valuable as yours to Marvel or DC.

I didn't say that I agree with them though, New X-Men is great by all means, but I'm also a huge Morrison-fag admittedly.

>>90452210
>I said Fox are no just refusing a deal, they are being fucking jackasses about it every time it comes up.


>give us your shit
>no
>please give us your shit
>no
>GOD WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SUCH AN ASSHOLE

>>90452281
No they aren't. The /co/ doesnt buy comics is a meme. Go into a shelf thread. Most anons have thousands of dollars worth of comics.

>>90452301
>corporate contracts denotes actual ownership of an IP

>>90451398
X-Men was clearly still a priority franchise for Marvel in 2012 or they wouldn't have put Bendis on it. (His run sucked except for the first year or so of All-New, but the point is just that Bendis is Marvel's favorite writer and they put him on projects they consider important.) Something changed so quickly in 2014 or so that I assume it could only have been an edict from Perlmutter: X-Men out, Inhumans in.

Other signs were the editorial revolving door that saw several X-Men line editors switched out until it was given to Mark Paniccia, a good editor who only gets books the big editors don't want (he also got Fantastic Four when Marvel was just about to cancel it).

So I don't think any writer can be blamed really. There have been some terrible X-Men runs since 1991, and even good writers like Brubaker do their worst work on it, but it can't be killed by bad runs, just by Marvel starving it of talent & promotion.

>>90452301
>Would you be willing to give us back our shit for enough money?
>Sure
>How much money would like you like?
>Ummm.... 100 million
>Uhhh, how about 60 million?
>No we need atleast 250 million
>You said...
>I NEED TWENTY BILLION
>*sigh*
>FUCK YOU ASSHOLE I'M RICH!!!!!!

>>90451398
Three words: Brian, Michael, Bendis.

>>90452210
So is that why Fox are doggedly sitting on the FF rights even though it's been a constant loss for them whenever they've used them?

>>90452391
Remember when Disney was willing to pay up but Ike the Kike said not to?

>>90451567
>Blame Whedon
fuck off, he went back to Claremont style and made them good again. Morrison is great but his X books sucked

>>90452606
Nobody makes a movie thinking it's going to flop, and letting a major superhero property get away from them wouldn't have been smart in the middle of a huge superhero boom.

Since the '00s FF movie was successful enough to get a sequel it wasn't crazy of Fox to think they could profit more from a new FF movie instead of just letting Marvel take the rights back.

>>90451741
Brood Saga for me. I love X-men in space

>>90451762

100% agreed

>>90452555
I think people love to blow it out of proportion Bendis work on the X men, was it bad ? sure it was but it was not worse than Austen

>>90452311
Shelf threads are the only threads actual comic readers go to, besides Win-O of course. but shelf threads are also elitist assholes at times. If you have too much DC or Marvel you get shit on

not my fault I find a lot of it for cheap as hell

>>90452368
>Other signs were the editorial revolving door that saw several X-Men line editors switched out until it was given to Mark Paniccia, a good editor who only gets books the big editors don't want

1) Mike Marts returned to Marvel and the X-books after he had returned from working for DC for nearly a decade and it seemed that they were grooming him for something big. And then he ups and leaves for a no-name indie comic book company, and he clearly felt Marvel was undermining the X-books since one of his favored tweets was someone complaining about Marvel underbilling the X-franchise because of the movies.

2) Indeed and Mark Paniccia was Robinson's editor on FF. Hardly a Fantastic choices given what we know now about Robinson.

>>90452786
At least All-New X-Men had some decent art (Immonen has improved a lot since the '90s) and a premise in Bendis's wheelhouse. Even the "Bendis Hates the Scarlet Witch" issue was actually better than what Rick Remender was doing with the same character at the time.

Bendis doesn't usually destroy franchises, he just spins his wheels endlessly while you wait for him to leave. (Guardians may be an exception but even there it may be an editorial thing.)

>>90452723
Morrison's run literally aped Claremont. I don't think people like you even read Claremont's run.

Xmen are not superheroes.

>>90452723
The problem is as Whedon and Claremon demonstrated, you just can't go back to writing like it was the 90s and 80s. People's tastes had changed. There is a reason why Claremont's return to the mainline didn't work out and he was flubbed off to writing Excalibur.

>>90452368
>Something changed so quickly in 2014

That was the year Winter Soldier and X-Men DOFP were out. I'd bet it had something to do with Fox deciding to use Quicksilver despite knowing Marvel had plans to use him and Scarlet Witch (Winter Soldier had the cameos and was out first).

Movie rights.

That's it.

Marvel the movies had the Inhumans as their potential X Men stand ins, so marvel the comics decided to shill the Inhumans at the expense of the X Men.

Now that all the Inhumans don't sell after 5 years of pushing and the X Men books are selling poorly after 5 years of being shat on, Marvel is attempting to take the X Men back to their roots so their sales won't be so ass.

>>90452910
I think an old franchise needs to go back and forth between nostalgia and progress. Whedon's nostalgia made sense after Morrison had taken "they're not superheroes" as far as he could. It's like the Avengers goes back and forth between nostalgic stuff and ultra-modern anti-nostalgia approaches like Hickman's.

Claremont is a different matter because he just hasn't been the same since he was forced out in 1991. His style by the '00s was so old-fashioned that Marts was constantly striking out his captions and thought balloons and exposition dialogue.

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>Marvel thinks their comics benefit Fox's movies and not the other way around

>>90451883
>comicbookresources message board
Go back there.

>>90452281
>They still buy comics, their opinions are just as valuable as yours to Marvel or DC.

Not when the board owners curate people's opinions and ban users for hurting Marvel's feel-feels. They even have a rule banning "creator bashing".

I would say Movie Rights, but it's even more than that.
1) Bendis. The fact that he did a ridiculously stupid run, and other writers have to follow his plot threads are mind numbing, such as X-23 dating Angel.
2) Writers just not knowing what X-Men to use, like how Jason Aaron got all those Academy X kids and instead focuses on Quentin Fucking Quire.
3) Avengers vs. X-Men. All of the momentum, all the buildup, all the dark stories we went through and the payoff was "Sorry X-Men, the Avengers are the good guys". Everything after that ruined the X-Men.

>>90453012
Also 2014 was the year when Inhuman #1 was out--that was the book they deliberately put Joe Madureira (who still has a fanbase despite not putting comics work out on a regular basis) on. It was also originally supposed to be written by Fraction but then he parted ways with the project because editorial wanted a specific direction.

And that's not all, according to this:

http://movieweb.com/x-men-days-of-future-past-quicksilver-replaced-juggernaut-in-original-script/

>American Horror Story star Evan Peters was cast as Quicksilver in X-Men: Days of Future Past exactly one one week after Joss Whedon revealed the character held a very important role in Marvel's Avengers sequel, a role which went to Aaron Taylor-Johnson.

And backtracking the links leads to http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/17/joss-whedon-talks-quicksilver-the-scarlet-witch-and-iron-mans-roles-in-avengers-2 which is where Whedon confirmed Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch would be in Avengers 2, with a date of May 17 2013.

So all the drama may have taken root in 2013, leading to Ike's decision to push the Inhumans in 2014. (was Inhuman #1 the first of the push? I can't remember.)

>>90451883
That board seems to be mostly people who got into the X-Men either in their '80s prime or at the height of their '90s fame (with the cartoon and the expanded line).

Morrison's run was deliberately a break with the traditional X-Men style and the way Marvel comics were done in the '80s and '90s. It was a new management saying they weren't going to be catering to that audience any more.

It's sort of like how I got into Avengers with the Busiek stuff, which in turn was heavily based on the '70s prime of the title - so it's not surprising that Bendis and Hickman Avengers aren't really for me, even though I believe that the title needed to change and stop being so nostalgic.

>>90451655
>They ruined the FF
No they didn't. They stopped publishing them after Secret Wars, but at no point did they stop being good.

>>90453292
Man, it's astonishing how FOX made a much better Quicksilver than Marvel's.

>>90453333
Well it helps that they didn't just kill him off right out the gate.

>>90453313
>It's sort of like how I got into Avengers with the Busiek stuff, which in turn was heavily based on the '70s prime of the title - so it's not surprising that Bendis and Hickman Avengers aren't really for me, even though I believe that the title needed to change and stop being so nostalgic.

I get that logic, but at the same time I can actually enjoy Claremont's X-Men and think Morrison's X-Men is kinda decent even if I don't rank it as highly as others do. With Avengers I enjoyed Busiek's run but really cannot say the same with Bendis' run or Hickman's run, even though they had their moments (it's just that there were too many terrible ideas that overshadowed any of the good).

>>90453361
Problem is we don't know if he was killed because Ike got pissed off at Fox, or not. Remember he was still in control of both movies and merchandise, and MCU Quicksilver was like the only one who didn't get an Marvel Legends action figure or a Funko Pop.

>>90453378
Bendis didn't get Avengers, Hickman at least did the rotating cast of B-C and Z listers well.

>>90453330
You don't remember Fraction's aborted run where he quit halfway and they had to replace him with some no name writer who was an artist on Antman. Or the fact that Fraction went full tumblr and starting doing gender identity storylines in the FF book (about the Future Foundation kids) or that he ignored all the development Hickman had given to Reed and the others. Or the fact that Robinson who admitted to hitting the sauce too much got the book afterwards?

>>90451915
Nah, it's been steadily downhill since Decimation. The whole "mutants are an endangered species" giga-arc has been terrible for the X-brand. They should have ended it with Hope fixing things, but instead we got A vs. X and then a doubling down on shitting on mutants.

>>90453361
That's more Whedon's "Kill favorites" syndrome and being unable to kill anyone who is part of the other films. What astonishes me is how Quicksilver's death ultimately meant nothing. Ultron was already on his last legs when he gets killed.

Granted, he probably would have been too broken to be in future films.

>>90451413
This.

If marvel can't have the movie rights, then they are just going to kill off or remove them for a time out of the comic till they can get the movie rights. They trying to put their chips in with the Inhuman hoping they can take their place.

>>90453478
Decimation is the definition of mortgaging the future. There were some really good stories in there but they came at the cost of sustainability

>>90453468
The FF book was really enjoyable. Great Allred art, lots of zany-ness.

>>90453468
Robsinon's book was solid if a bit uninspired, and while yeah, I ended up dropping his F4 after the first couple issues, his FF was solid especially since the Allreds started ghost writing it halfway through.

>>90453478
"mutants are endangered" should really just be translated to "Ike won't let us create more new mutants"

>>90453565
> I ended up dropping his F4 after the first couple issues
Fraction's that is.

>>90453313
Morrison's run was imo, the start of the overly grimdark era. E is for Extinction began with what, half of mutantkind being wiped out? It just escalated from there until House of M and most recently with the M-Pox.

Yeah the X-men has gone through similar stuff before, but nothing on the scale of E is for Extinction and HoM. Ever since New X-men, the X-titles have been harping on the extinction thing.

>>90451398

>5 years ago"

Not only has X-Men not been loved by fans and critics for much longer than that, they haven't been a sales juggernaunt since *2002*. Check the calendar, thats 15-fucking-years.

I'm not sure what shifted. There might not be one good answer, just a shifting market. I would mention that it correlates to the release of the Ultimates which revitalized the Avengers franchise.

>>90453274

It's a lot of things but this anon's got it right. It's a lot of things but mainly these three things are it. But I'd also add.

4) Marvel's mentality of pushing the Inhumans MUST PUSH INHUMANS! They forget that the breadwinners are the X-Men. No matter how much they shove the Inhumans down our throats and tell us that, "Inhumans" are the new X-Men. They ain't. They suck at that.

Did marvel honestly think they could hurt normies knowledge and recognizably of classic X-men with a five year long shit streak of runs? What did they expect?

>>90453709
It's because they are a pet project of Isaac/Ike Perlmutter.

>>90453688
Avengers aren't big sellers either.

>>90453644
Morrison started off with the destruction of Genosha but the central theme of his run was that HUMANITY were the ones on the edge of extinction and mutants were rising faster and faster.

>>90453709
Someone said it best.
Marvel could have easily pushed the Inhumans by having them just be a space royal family. There was no need to turn them into X-Men. The fact that Ike Pearlmutter went "We need to make an X-Men Killer" when the whole reason the X-men were loved was cause of their badass characters. The Inhumans will never have their own Wolverine. They don't have a Storm. Or a Magneto. Hell, outside Maximus, the Unspoken and Lash, I can't name any other Inhuman villains. Marvel should have made the Inhumans more like War of Kings, not the fucking X-Men. Nobody says the reason they love X-Men is cause they are a group who is prejudiced against.

>>90453881
Yeah, but that went completly over the heads of Marvel execs and editorial. Instead they saw an edgy extinction story and decided to run with it.

>>90453688
>>90453861
Avengers sold because they put Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team. That's the sole reason it got so big.

>>90453962
I think the subsequent ones fall back into >>90453567
A few slip through like Goldballs but it's like they want to make sure new characters are available for MCU instead of Fox.

>>90453962

no they just didn't like that direction of the x-men, higher ups just thought x-men work as underdogs

>>90453900
I totally agree.

It was a travesty Hickman reversed it to ply his hamfisted Black-Bolt-as-Paul-Atreides storyline. Even then if Marvel hadn't handed it to Fraction and later Soule they could gone back to the Kree Empire thing even with his harem in tow.

>>90453965
Also because of Bendis who was still widely seen as a good writer back then because of DD and USM. Disassembled lost Marvel a lot of long term fans who never came back afterwards and Marvel traded it for the ADHD crowd with a push for more events to the point it's now non-stop events.

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>>90451398
Because Avengers got more popular and a narrative with both is fucking idiotic.

>>90451929
Yep, that sounds exactly like CBR. Plus, it's over populated with die hard Claremont and X-Men TAS fans. The whole X-Men community on those forums is cancerous.

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>>90451398
GOAT tier:
Uncanny X-Men
Uncanny X-Force
Wolverine and the X-Men

Very good tier:
X-Men Legacy
X-Factor
Generation Hope
New Mutants

Ok tier:
X-Men

How do you go from this...

>>90452910
Maybe it'd help if they weren't eternally saddled with the same fucking cast as the 90s and 80s.

>>90451883
CBR X-Men forums have no taste, think Bendis had a great run, and belive Teen Iceman being outed as a homosexual is progressive.

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>>90454342
...to this?

>>90454342
>Wolverine and the X-Men
>good

>>90453292
At the time (2013) I wondered why Whedon was announcing that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch would be in the sequel so early, usually these things are announced later (Ultron and Vision weren't announced until the following year).

Now I wonder if he was trying to do an end run around Perlmutter's division since there's no way Perlmutter would have wanted these characters in the MCU, knowing Fox co-owned the rights.

Then again I thought Whedon killed quicksilver because of rights and it turns out it was probably just because killing is all he knows how to do.

>>90454322
bullshit. It is because inhumans are muh refugees in amurica and mutants are a local thing. And for the SJW outside stuff is better then the stuff on the inside.

>>90451567
I'd rather blame Morrison for shitting over decades of character development because he felt he needed a strop.

>>90454427
I never said Inhumans were any better.
Fuck them too. Send them back into space or seclusion. M-day all the new shitters while your at it.

>>90453900
>I can't name any other Inhuman villains
Maelstrom, but that's pretty much it, and they haven't bothered to use Maelstrom even once since the push started.

>>90454414
>Then again I thought Whedon killed quicksilver because of rights and it turns out it was probably just because killing is all he knows how to do.

It still could be either. If he was under orders to get rid of Quicksilver he'd try not to blame the higher ups because he'd still want to work in the industry.

>>90454544
Not fucking even. Maelstrom is Quasar's villain. Any heat they have with him is shared equally with the Eternals.
>>90453900
Various Kree fucking shits. Phae-Dorr rings a bell, specifically.
Perlmutter's pushed introduced a few, like Lash & Lineage. Some old king guy too but he might've been pre-existing.