She is to blame for the poor state of current Marvel

I like Kate for the same reason I like Clint, they're cocky outspoken assholes

I just think it's goofy she became a superhero because a homeless man raped her in the ass. Like it's so bad it sounds like a parody.

>>90313324
Yeah, but the Marvel Universe doesn't scream "YOU HAVE TO LIKE CLINT BECAUSE HE IS AWESOME AND THE REAL HAWKEYE".

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Having Clint murder Banner and then putting him on tripe like Occupy Avengers isn't gonna help matters either.

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>>90313285
That's not Kamala.

>>90313285
Would you like some cheese with that whine?

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>>90313285
>>90313639
You're both wrong, it's /this/ cunt.

I kind of like that Kate is just as dumb as Clint is but she's convinced herself that she's way better than him. Her solo arc in Fraction's Hawkeye was basically her getting beat down a little to show that she's not actually better than Clint.

Also, despite being a hip youngster, she has absolutely no idea how to use computers.

>>90313551

what

>>90313639

Kamala is fine. That's the only one that got the tone of classic Peter Parker style slice of life heroism right. Then she was fucked up by the events.

>>90313742
>hip youngster
Young hipster

>>90313787
>that got the tone of classic Peter Parker style slice of life heroism right.

Eh, not mean spirited enough.

It's ok OP her book was a failure
Issue 1 was at 16 with 70,884
Issue 2 was at 102 with 27,049

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>it's a "what singular thing caused marvel to be shit" thread

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>>90313285
Lol what is your only exposure to Kate the hawkeye series where they flanderized her ego?Kate was never better than Clint that was always acknowledge before and after he came back,Whatever she's become now is a symptom of what's troubling marvel not a cause,she was about as superior to Clint as Tim was to Dick,close but far less ambitious and talented

>>90313285
>>it's a "what singular thing caused marvel to be shit" thread
This. Seriously this.
This is what makes me mourn what Marvel once was. It was good, great even. Alas no longer.

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>>90313723
Miles is on his own level of bad. The female hero genre at Marvel is a different beast, because the writers keep reinforcing the same quirky slice-of-life writing style every time. The only character avoiding this has been Black Widow. She-Hulk has been ruined by this recent fad as well. Pic related.

By the way, this picture isn't photoshopped. Only cropped. This was actually published.

>>90313285
the real shame is she was nothing like that when she was first introduced in Young Avengers

>>90313818
>Eh, not mean spirited enough.

That's a good thing, it gets too unbearable after a while

>>90313742
Right.
A major aspect of her characterization in Fraction's run was that she could also be a total fuckup.

But readers and writers only seem to remember those early issues before the book got into that and she was portrayed as perfect.

>>90313914
>She-Hulk has been ruined by this recent fad as well.

Isn't she the quirky Hulk that breaks the 4th wall all the time though?

>>90314011
That wasn't the same. She wasn't "quirky" in the same way that females heroes are "quirky" today. Her book was actually funny and had sex appeal to boot.

Nah man, it was either Civil War or Avengers Disassembled. Marvel's problems as a whole started before Kate got wanked to high heaven and would continue even if she wasn't a thing.

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>>90313894
Reminder Kate ha completely accepted her inferiority to Clint as was willing to drop the mantle but was stopped by Clint being nice and encouraging her to try to get on his level,her being a smart ass about it isn't exactly solid proof she's the root cause of the problem

>>90313998
>and she was portrayed as perfect.
And Gillen cemented the idea.

>B-but she wasn't like this befor-

It doesn't matter. She is like this now, and is actually this version that is popular.

>>90314084

source?

>>90313914
>This was actually published.
im retarded
what's wrong with that picture?

>>90314087
It's weird how influential Gillen's Young Avengers ended up being considering how boring and lame it was.

>>90314117
>source
>kids who never even read her Heinberg years go "b-b-but is that true"

Holy fuck

I'm finally an oldfag now.

>>90314087
No one is arguing that Kate got flanderized but her flanderization into "I'm the best hawkeye" is a RESULT of modern marvel,hardly the cause.Thats like blaming she hulk for starting the slice of life trend of marvel books because she was given one recently

No her costume is too lewd to be SJW. It's Carol's fault.

>>90314160

I haven't read Heinberg's YA in years.
that didn't look like Cheung's art to me.

>>90314145
I'm just amazed Young Avengers got off the ground as a concept.

>>90314189
It helps when it launched it was more concerned with telling a story than letting pandering take center place quite a lot of the time.

>>90314181
>The OP image is considered lewd now.

We've gone too far, I wanna go back.

>>90313787
Kamala isn't fine at all
her book is tumblr-tier writing

>>90314239
That's what someone from /tv/mblr would say

>>90314189
>>90314217
It also helps that Teen Titans and Young Justice proved to them that a ongoing about a team consisting of legacy heroes could be a success.

>>90314239
b-b-but Anon!
it's totally fine and the only problem is that ONLY JUST recently they began to put her in group books and using her as a mouthpiece

>>90314270
C'mon, anon.

Let's be honest here, Kamala's book is less than good for at least a year already.

>>90314226
It's kind of lewd in the sense that it confirms Kate wears no panties.

>>90314270
Ms. Marvel isn't a good book at all, Kamala could be cool if she had an ok writer

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>>90314226
But dem side holes tho

>>90314189
I'm just amazed Gillen's YA is considered good at all;

"Come with me with you wanna be awesome"? For fucks sake. And the idiocy of the first arc is unbelievable.

>>90314353

that Hawkeye/Deadpool mini was great.

>>90313768
Her origin in young avengers has her talk about how she got ass raped in central park and decided to become a superhero. No bullshit.

Except Kate is an actual good character.

>>90314403
It really was bad,worse of it ruined Wiccan and Hulkling by cementing them from one dimensional characters with cool back stories to eternal gay romance cliches

>>90313551
Sounds more like something Image would do.

>>90314403
I'm of the opinion it starts fair but becomes a trainwreck right after the (intriguing, but went absolutely nowhere) GHOST PATRIOT issue.

>>90314461
This shit and Tumblr praising it for it will piss me off until the end of time.

>>90314403
I like Gillen's writing but sometimes it can feel a bit smug.

>>90314501

>that may solicit for Gwenpool/(Real hawkeye)

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>>90314461
>Did you know Wiccan and Hulking are gay?
>'Cause I didn't.

>>90313285

Every time they call her the real hawkeye, it just signals that she isn't the real one. Which is hilarious.

>>90314460
Then you're the target audience for America and Wasp.

>>90314509
Hard to believe he made Godhunter really.

>>90313285
It's not one character that is to blame you myopic fuckup. Think back to the whole OMD thing and imagine that Marvel just sees their characters as product they need to sell so they decided to rollback Spider-Man in the stupidest way to tell the Parker Luck shit over and over. So we establish that Marvel sees them as product, right? Well right now they're putting product in competition with their other product (rather than having it work side by side) and trying to publically rip apart their selling product in favor of the new one, which is actually a pretty bad business move. Remember New Coke?

>>90313285
"All the other characters say how amazing I am" seems to be Marvel way of trying to get readers to like a character.

>>90314532
It's less that they were revealed as gay,heinberg did that first,it's more of how frustrating how hulklings issues with his dead mom and battling heritages and inferiority complex was all thrown out or just used as angst for more romance spiel,same with Wiccan.There gay but the whole"But does he love me or is he possessing me?!?" Sctick has gone on too long

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>>90314546
To be fair she was,Clint was dead and came back secretly with a new name,her being hawkeye made sense,her keeping the name makes sense,Her bragging about being the greatest and Clint also bowing to her presence now?Nonsense

>>90314732

we'll have to agree to disagree. Someone dying doesn't make you shit. There is a presumption that doesn't mean anything.

>>90313324
She's even a bigger fuck up, because she's naive, which he's not, by sheer life experience.

Each one of them has their personal traits, even if they're very much alike to the core: she's very much like the classic, old Hawkeye, much the playful part. He's nowadays a much more mellowed and way less of an idealist, and a bit more honor driven, which is fun.

Both of them still have a lot of temper and a too much big mouth..

>>90313894
>>90314084
>>90314732
Let's get this straight.

This character is DEAD and will never come back. She was totally replaced by it >>90313285

>>90314668
It's funny really, since the reverse works a lot better.

One of my favourite characters is Moon Knight, and all other characters have to say about him is how much of a dangerous nutcase he is. He's seen as unstable, monstrous, and that makes him doing something awesome stand out even more.

Or hell, think back to Spider-Man's debut where everyone was either afraid of him, or distrusted him for the Bugle smearjob. It made him an underdog to root for, and made him look heroic for saving the day in spite of all the shit he had to go through.

>>90313551
She didn't get raped, she was attacked, tho.
And Lemire's run, which is awful and a mess, did recon her in being a Clint shipper since he rescued her when she was like 10 or so.

You need to improve you bait, mate.

>>90314856

you took it, so it worked pretty well cad.

>>90314834
People /still/ hate Peter and think he's annoying as fuck.

Just look at Marvel's other popular characters too.

X-Men are considered dangerous.

Hulk is treated like a monster.

Punisher receives contempt from the hero community for being too aggressive.

There's a reason people like these characters, they're complex and the world around them gives a realistic representation of how people would act to people like that.

>>90314938

people don't shit on deadpool as much anymore. It was kind of funny watching ms.marvel try to talk shit to him as if he didn't just save the day.

>>90313914
>She-Hulk has been ruined by this recent fad as well
No she hasn't. Just because you don't find her recent series fap-worthy doesn't mean it's bad.

>>90314834
>Spider-Man and X-Men were distrusted and had to work hard for their reputation.
>The two most successful Marvel's franchises.

>Carol Danvers and Inhumans are shilled endlessly.
>It backfires big time.

They should have learned by now.

I was outspoken on Kate sucking way back when Fraction Hawkeye was starting, and you all shat on me. You guys deserved this hell.

>>90315026

I feel like the biggest misstep of the Inhumans push recently, is you have this fucking city that crashes into part of New York...and everyone's kinda okay with that after 2 issues?

the anti-inhuman bigotry just disappeared after a few issues as well.

I guess they didn't want to deal with the mutie/inhuman comparisons too much, but they definitely glossed over the hated and feared parts that would have helped build Inhumans as a group to root for.

>>90314938
>People /still/ hate Peter and think he's annoying as fuck.

Most of that in the 00's and 10's is bad writing though. It was more believable when he was in high school, less so for an adult who's been doing it for a long time and teamed up with a lot of the heroes.

>>90315026
Well, DC eventually stopped shitting on the living room carpet. I'm sure Marvel can learn the same lesson soon.

>>90315058

but Fraction had a good handle on Kate.

the only times Kate was really shit prior to this book was Gillen's YA, but except for Loki and Noh-Varr, everyone was kinda shit in that book (and I say that as an unironic Gillen fan)

>>90315107

its mostly the bad jokes and incessant talking.

>>90314886
Because I'm bored enough to get baited. Like now.

>>90313285
Why do people hate Kate, but never complain about the loser who is impersonating Clint Barton since House of M?

>>90315217

I feel like dying and being resurrected might have had some sort of affect on Clint

>>90315217
He's just going over a lot of shit and recovering from it.

It's not the first time he's depressed, right?

You will see! Ten years are nothing!

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>>90314856
Yeah she was ass raped Jessica Jones even asks her who knows and Kate says only her therapist and her. You don't get therapy because someone stole your purse or treat it like a shameful secret.

>>90315217
Because since House of M Clint was written only by Bendis and Fraction, and:

1 - Everyone shits on Bendis already
2 - Fraction's Clint is incredibly OOC, but his run is somewhat a Sacred Cow, so nobody says shit.

>>90315281
If that's from Alias or JJ, I refuse to read it.

>>90315281

I think he was disputing the ass-rape part, not the rape itself part.

>>90315306
It's from young avengers,the series Kate premiered in you pleb

>>90315265
>>90315280
That or Wanda messed things up when she brought him back.
Maybe it's like in X-Factor where Guido was resurrected, but without his soul and became a giant asshole.

>>90315354
I-I'm sorry.

>>90315330
Does it really make any difference?

>>90315330
>>90315382
My bad. I meant the rape part. I was misremembering stuff.

>>90315382

enough for him to take the bait so apparently he doesn't like the thought of real hawkeye taking it up the ass.

>>90315382
He probably looked up her WIKI ENTRY where it says "Katie was ATTACKED when she grew up but the LEVEL OF THE ASSAULT HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED YET".

You know, give it a few years and they'll likely be referring to Miles as 'the real Spider-Man.'

>>90315418
>>90315439
It's ok, guys, don't bully me.

I'm just too bored to do anything, look anything, read anything, download anithing. I'm really easy to bait.

Really, it's Ok. Thank you, guys.

>>90315265
I wonder if that's the case with everyone else who's died and resurrected (not counting something like Infinity Gauntlet).

Spider-Man: died and resurrected in The Other, then it leads to his decisions in Civil War and One More Day
Captain America: died post-Civil War, then after coming back did things like look the other way as his Secret Avengers tortured people, joined the Illuminati, made major blunders in AvX that he shouldn't have, spent the last day of Earth during the incursion beating on Iron Man instead of helping to lead the Avengers.

Any other possible examples?

>>90315455

I hope bendis tries this bullshit, it might be the think finally takes that hack down.

>>90315455
After the inevitable implosion of Peter under Slott, I don't doubt it.

>>90315523

I feel like this is giving them intentional abilities that these writers do not have and would be one of the greatest writing twists that spans a decade. It's just not possible.

>>90315592

>All spiderman movies feature peter
>him ever not being the real spiderman

>>90313285
A lot of Hawkeye's sales and fandom came from girls who liked oggling Hawkeye's booty.

They lost the female readers by switching to a female hawkeye, ironically.

>>90315645
>Peter dies in Infinity War 2
>Donald Glover takes over the franchise as Miles

>>90315508
I'm actually more making fun of the Wikipedia-line of writing than anything else. I'd love nothing more to run some 'pop culture' site where stupid silly entertainment shit is referred to in verbose dialect and stuff like "we don't know how far does the assault go" if you're watching a stoner comedy and someone in it said they were raped in the ass.[/spoiçer]

I'm a long time fan of Marvel and have never read anything with Kate in it, I only know about the character because of /co/ and have never cared enough about Hawkeye to ever want to read anything with him as the main focus as life from the Thunderbolts comic from the 90s.

I'd say Bendis is to blame for the current state of Marvel.

>>90315613
I don't expect Marvel's writers in the last decade to do that. But the explanation would definitely not only explain some of these stupid blunders characters made, it would give a catch to the constant death and resurrections.

I stopped reading marvel and dc ages ago.

Indy is the way for me.

At least when they suck there's a good reason for it.

>>90315682
This is true.

I have hopes on the Aizen lookalike, tho.

>>90315715
>>90315613
Also the only way the implementation of that twist works is if after it gets revealed things get fixed and they don't do the similar fuck-ups again. But given the way writing and editing has been in the last 10 years I don't expect that to happen.

Post Clint x Kate

>>90315872
That's statuory rape.

You're a creep.

>>90315058
I apologize, anon.

I was neutral towards her back then, I only started to pay attention after seeing some dumbasses saying how she was the best legacy character ever (Wally West who?). I asked for recommendations and they gave me comics that kept repeating how she is the best.

Illiterate scum.

>>90315697

He's the new lando in starwars, it isn't going to happen, they don't crossplatform people between franchises.

>>90315523

but Clint was killed and brought back in a weirder way than those two.

like he died-died, and then was forcibly brought back due to reality manipulation (twice technically?)

with Spidey and Cap it wasn't the same.

but you could definitely argue that Wanda's abilities could've altered Clint in some ways when he was resurrected that would make him perceivably different. Hes been a lot...calmer? for the past decade than he was in the 80s/90s

>>90314305
But does she wear a butt plug?

>>90315897
Its legal. And she wanted him

>>90316093
Strange said he was too alive, iirc, or something on that note.

>>90316291

Too much porn brah

>>90316093
Calm, yea.
But he certainly has some anger issues below the surface.

I'll be honest: I don't mind a calmer Clint.

>>90315281

Mmmmm... School uniform....

>>90315897
Isn't Kate at least 21?

>>90316292
I'd hit it. She's probably a tight fuck.

>>90316434
Yeah.

>>90315107
Hasn't Peter been accused of murder several times over? Including a recent account of manslaughter? I'd feel like he's been linked to some hardcore crimes long enough to warrant it.

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>>90313285
>and Ms America BEST MAMA JAMA
For fuck's sake, Marvel, stop embarrassing yourself

Clint was provably better than her in Fraction's run though, he was just more of an asshole as a person

>>90315058
I still like Fraction run, the issue was people trying to imitate it, and failing.

>>90313324
Except they made him an outspoken loser asshole when he was before a badass outspoken asshole who turned Mentor figure outspoken asshole as his character developed.

It is in fact, how we got this mess:
He started as Kate's mentor, then they showed him being a fuck up loser idiot while Kate is this perfect being who does everything he does but better and now we got shit like "THE REAL HAKWEYE HURR HURR HUR"

>>90314084
>Posting older continuity

Read the new comics.

>>90314160
This can't be original Heinberg series. It ended around #2 of original Civil War, and the first time Hawkeye showed up after House of M was either during Fallen Son or that issue of New Avengers when he fucked a Doombot pretending to be Wanda. Not to mention the fact that during that time he didn't even use either the Hawkeye name or costume. So instead of trying - and failing - to be a smartass, you could give out the actual source.

>>90316762
Linked but tenuous. Especially when 90% it's JJJ accussing him of being associated with crimes and turning out to be wrong most of the time.

>>90314226
Of course it's lewd, you can totally see her shoulders!

>>90313836
This death was actually liberating for me. I was feeling absolutely forgotten by the company for some time. Things were getting bad, but, hey, we had that great run of X-Men: Legacy with Legion... and then that ended. But, hey, it's okay, because... uh... there's... ooh, Tom King's Vision! That was amazing! And then it ended. But, it's okay, because... because...

Fuck it. If they want to self-destruct by rebranding themselves into Tumblr screenshot fodder of proud brown women (male) making out with each other's lack or privilege, then fine. They can take Image with them, because they're not that far behind themselves these days. I've still got DC and a bunch of great indie and less popular stuff coming out to read. You guys been following God Country or Postal or SEX? There's some great comics out there.

>ENOUGH.

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>>90313285
I wouldn't blame the characters. Characters are only as shitty as the writers and editors. Like this guy...

>>90319727
Leave Quesadilla alone!

The shit went wild under Alonso.

that YASS QUEEN also applies to Mark Waid's rendition of the Wasp in Avengers ANAD. shes the LOL RANDOM of the Avengers and it's pretty godawful

>>90319727
don't talk about shitty writers without mentioning Mark Waid

>>90315872
Let's get some butt hurt. Post em.

>>90313914
Two panels of close ups of someone's face isn't really anything bad if that's what you were trying to convey.

>>90314678
Wiccan and Hulking should break up.

That way Hulking can go off and have awesome space adventures, and Wiccan can go off and fucking die or whatever, because I hate that faggot.

>>90313285
Except she's not? Her whole stint in LA basically proves she's got a long way to go before she's even better than Clint

>inb4 fraction haters
Fuck you I liked his run

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>>90313285
She is a symptom OP.

But she was the symptom that broke me personally. When I read THIS & it was an official solicit? I was done with Marvel because Marvel has made it clear they are done with me.

This pattern of theirs proved it:

1- New version of old character
2- New version is way cool more awesome because we are telling you they are & denigrating the old version (white..male...shitlord)
3- play misogynist/racism card against any complaints, accuse them of 'living in parents basement' ha-ha!

So I quit. Told my LCS I was done with Marvel & I didn't want the 'free' ones they'd been pushing on me. I'll still watch the Netflix shows & the films.

But I'll never trust Marvel Comics again.

>>90325915
God dammit. I'm not a fan pf Clint after what he did to bruce but this is just fucking mean. I can't imagine any fan who reads something like this and gets exited for this.

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>>90313285
unlike a lot of the new faces, she actually had build up so readers got accustomed to her before her big push

the problem is that Marvel replaced practically all of their big characters at once and push D listers they know nobody knows or cares about like Red Wolf or Miss America.

some of you guys are really bad at reading sub text, Kate is the way she is now because she feels inferior to Clint, its the progression of her character, shes proven herself on many occasions to be a worse archer and an equally big fuck up.

She talks big cause she has low self esteem.

>>90328246
How does that explain the solicits doing the same thing?

>>90328372

take a step back and ask why you're getting mad at solicits?

>>90328402
I'm not mad. Just wondering how your theory fits into it.

>>90328418
you act like solicits are always super accurate.

it just reads like that cause its Kates comic and thats how Kate feels.

I hate Kate's costume. It's bad and why the use it is beyond me.
She'd be great with just a t-shirt, jeans and leather jacket.

anyone who thinks Kate is some mary sue pushing Clint out has never read any Hawkeye, she is a colossus fuck up who is only good at shooting arrows and Clint is better than her at that.

>>90314938
>Punisher receives contempt from the hero community for being too aggressive.
>too aggressive

That's a really weird way of spelling "history's most prolific serial killer."

>>90328756
Wolverines got him beat I think.

>>90313285
Speedy is far more interesting and deep. Kate is redundant and pandering.

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>>90313285
>I hate Kate's costume. It's bad and why the use it is beyond me.
>She'd be great with just a t-shirt, jeans and leather jacket.
Is there even a difference?