When did Spider-Man comics stop being good?

>>90057555
ASM was never that good to begin with. They stopped being palatable around the time Alpha was introduced.

>>90057555
When invincible took his teen hero spot and did it better

>>90057957
>ASM was never that good to begin with.
Ditko's first 33 issues were pretty damn good, anon.

The quality wasn't consistent for long after that, however.

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>>90057555
Why don't you read them yourself instead of looking for some /co/ hivemind to regurgitate and form your own opinion

>>90058126
This.

When he was cucked by a Goblin.

>>90058126
I never saw the appeal for Invincible.
Then again, I'm not fond of Kirkman's writing in general.

>>90058140
Because I can't possibly read all Spider-Man comics, so I ask /co/ for the ones I should read and/or evade and then form my own opinion based of what I've read.

>>90058260
>Because I can't possibly read all Spider-Man comics
He hasn't even been in 4000 books over 50 years, including guest appearances. You can absolutely read all Spider-Man comics. Fuck, you can read most of his starring comics in two months or so.

>>90057555
around 2004

I guess
but they were also mostly bad around the 90s

>>90057555
Ultimate.
There's some still good side Spider-Man stuff, but very few.

>>90058127
The fuck

Romita Jr?

>>90058224
It's loved by anime fans because it concentrates on fighting.

personally, around Civil War 1

>>90058127
60s comics aren't good. They're long winded stories with okay art and repetitive, redundant dialogue.

>>90057555
With the first appearance of Venom.

>>90058716
So it has no plot.

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>>90058716
Yeah, its not the type of culturally enriched stuff we expect from other comic books

>>90058734
>t. moron

Stan's dialogue is overbearing, but Ditko's panel composition and figures are excellent.

>>90058704
JRJR isn't THAT big of a Ditkofag, or that harsh on his dad.

That said, under Senior and before Conway, the book got a bit sluggish.

>>90058759
You'll be pleasantly surprised at how Kirkman juggles plot threads numbering in almost the double digits, he introduces long-lasting consequences that disrupt the status quo without being pressured by brand recognition (Brand New Day) He also brings in alternate dimensions without having it turn into a mess or an easy escape card.

>>90058704
>>90058939
Meant to say Romita Sr

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>>90058734
Random Ditko page vs Random 70's page (Ross Andru) vs Random 80's Page vs Random 90's Page (Mark Bagley).

Aside from the 90's page being less wordy (mostly because it's not a DeMatteis story), they're all the same shit with varying levels of fluidity and boldness of lineart and inks.

>>90059102
Again, the writing gets a bit unfocused for a couple years once Ditko leaves. I also agree with Jim Shooter that Romita didn't really capture Peter's movements very well.

>>90058963
Shut up, Kirkman.

>>90058904
Not saying anything about comics being better, it's just they're more focused on plot. Fighting is incidental to the plot.

In most shonen manga, the plot is incidental or of equal importance to the fighting. Fights are long and drawn out with pages and pages of choreography. No comic would have an entire issue dedicated to a fight, much less multiple issues, because they've only got 22 pages a month and people feel gyped if the plot doesn't move forward substantially in each issue. A comic arc is 2-5 issues, a manga arc is usually more than a couple dozen, even factoring in that an "issue" of a manga is half that of a comic.

You can always tell when someone comes from a manga background when they criticize fighting in comics being too simplistic. This is why Invincible appeals to these folks, it's heavily influenced by DBZ and shonen manga, combining elements of Western superhero comics.

Look, I don't hold anything against mangafags for liking what they like, I even like manga too. I just hate when they criticize Western comics for not being like manga. Shonen and superheroes may have many comparable elements, but they are two vastly different genres in terms of influence and style.

>>90058904
That's not what they're saying and you know it, fucker.

>>90059342
The problem is that Invincible doesn't do it well, because it's still Spider-Man/Batman tier choreography. It spends page after page on fight scenes that aren't as visually or emotionally satisfying as something like Goku vs Piccolo Jr.

>>90059342
>Fights are long and drawn out with pages and pages of choreography
And this is how manga destroyed cape comics.

>>90058260
>Because I can't possibly read all Spider-Man comics
get gud faggot, i did the blitz in '11 and kept up with every fucking issue since then.

>>90059441
Well, I'm not a fan of Invincible so I can't really say. Just pointing out why most people who like shonen also like Invincible and many say that it's better than comics.

>>90059500
Who fucking cares?

>>90057555
January 1, 2000. same as everything else.

>>90057555
When Ditko left.

>>90059441
>>90059500
I wish weeb trash would just fuck off permanently.

>>90059858
Epic, just epic.

>>90057957
Fucking child detected.

OP, regardless of what you read here, Spider-Man comics used to be among the best Marvel had, particularly in the JMS era. Yes, there are those who had issues with the totems and some of the more questionable plots (sins past, anyone?) but even throughout all the plotting weirdness, what the comics had was something they have rarely had since: heart.

JMS and others of the era, like Paul Jenkins, really managed to capture and modernize the quintessential everyman feeling that made Spider-Man Marvel's flagship. He felt like a real person with real problems and the scripting was much more important than the plot. Even if you didn't care about Peter being the vessel for an ancient spider deity, you could appreciate how his neuroses and personal problems kept him up late at night, leading him down trains of thoughts like why his suit doesn't have pockets, or why he couldn't get a song by The Monkees out of his head, or how to deal with his obnoxious coworkers at his teaching job.

The teaching job was a brilliant move during the JMS era. For an everyman hero like Peter Parker, being a tech billionaire like Tony Stark isn't a good path for storytelling, as Dan Slott has proven time and again. Peter, an otherwise ordinary boy from queens, felt right at home teaching science in an underfunded public school. It was something related to his intellectual passions that would genuinely help the world in a way that didn't involve him punching someone. It was real and grounded and made the extraordinary threats that emerged feel that much more extraordinary because he couldn't just buy a billion dollar laser gun to destroy them like he can now.

Continued because I have a lot to say about this.

>>90060132
The romantic side of Peter, a staple of Spider-Man comics, was much better in the JMS era too. Mary Jane stopped being both a dancing party girl and a stereotypical ball-and-chain wife figure. She was written like a real person with worries and passions and doubts and struggles. Their love was tested and put through the ringer and you felt that they came out stronger for every ordeal they overcame (except for the one at the end, which we'll get to). Peter had to reconcile that while his love for Gwen Stacy would always be there, his love for Mary Jane was, in fact, greater in the end. MJ had to realize that she couldn't live her life being afraid if it kept her from what she wanted - a theme echoed in her eventual pursuit of stage acting.

JMS revitalized the title. It felt like Peter was growing up in to the man he'd always meant to be. Sales tripled.

But Marvel didn't like that. Marvel decided Peter needed to be eternally young, so they retcon-punched him back to the 70's and in doing so damaged Spider-Man comics in a way from which they have yet to recover. They got rid of the marriage in the stupidest way possible. Unlike Daredevil, who had years of story dealing with the fallout of his identity being discovered, Spider-Man that with great power there must also come a cosmic reset button in the form of Satan himself appearing and offering to eat your marriage in exchange for shitting out a few more years for your aunt.

The focus on the character was gone. Peter wasn't meant to grow or change. He was meant to punch boring threats-of-the-week. Boring/cliche characters no one ever cared about were introduced and forced upon the readership and have since been abandoned due to lack of interest (Who here genuinely misses Carlie Cooper?). Some writers did their absolute best to salvage what was left of Peter Parker in this era. Joe Kelly, Zeb Wells, and other writers put out some truly great works during this time that focused on Peter as a person.

Cont.

>>90057555
OMD

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>>90060348
Then Dan Slott took over as the sole writer of Amazing Spider-Man and the title became a hollow shell of its former self. Slott's inability to write engaging characters, appealing dialogue, or anything close to good pacing has made the title boring to read. There's cliche sadness and cliche action and cliche quips and it's become a giant paint-by-numbers borefest filled with moments I'm sure Slott thinks are "epic" and "awesome."

Spider-Man was the story of how an ordinary man can deal with extraordinary circumstances. Unlike other popular heroes at the time of his creation, he wasn't a demigod like Superman or a billionaire who could money most of his personal problems away like Batman. Spider-Man still had to worry about paying rent and his aunt's medical bills and having a good social life. He was mortal and he suffered and he was very much just a regular person trying to live life, same as all of us.

That's gone now and will be for as long as Slott and other incompetents stay on the title. Now we have Spider-Manchild. It's not about showing how an ordinary man can deal with extraordinary circumstance, it's about having generic and sometimes overly edgy villains (the new take on the Vulture, anyone?) get punched at the end of a story arc so Peter can keep on being a static character while the supporting cast gets twisted and abused to any lengths to keep the plot holes from sinking the ship.

So to answer your question, OP, just read the JMS-era stuff and stop when the devil shows up.

>>90058321
coward

>>90060132
>>90060348
>>90060622
Imagine having no life like this loser.

>>90060132
>>90060348
>>90060622
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TbbvXK5QS8

1988.

You know why.

>>90060715
>>90060696
>a minute apart
really makes you think

>>90060696
>>90060715
>OP asks question.

>Anon answers.

>"Y-Yeah! Well /you/ have autism!"

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>>90060739

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>>90060696
>>90060715
>Talks about the thread topic
>Lol what a loser/he has autism

>>90060132
>particularly in the JMS era
Nah m8.
He was okay, but he wasn't the best at all. A ton of writers, both on ASM and off, like DeMatteis, PAD, Busiek, etc were better alternatives.

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>>90063644
I dunno, something about JMS' writing style really, really appeals to me. A lot of writers are capable of doing the "normal guy" schtick, but JMS is one of the few who makes Peter seem like a real New Yorker, probably because JMS is from Jersey himself.

>>90057555
OP thumbnail looks like a huge spidey bulge desu

>>90058340
Ultimate focused again on the teen audience when TASM was focusing on adult Peter Parker, give it some respect

>>90060132
>>90060348
>>90060622
Despite having read most every issue of Spidey ever, I enjoyed reading this.
Thanks, anon.

OMD/BND

>>90057555
save your money and focus on the villains that interest you, then read only those. don't listen to these guys saying "read em all". you ain't got time for that shit.

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>>90060348
>put through the ringer

It's wringer, anon.

>>90057555
When they dropped the white supremacists aspect of Spiderman. They should have never fired Sam Raimi.

>>90066817
Shoo, /tv/

>>90066800
That's not the worst typo I made in this rant.

>>90066874

Yeah, but that one in particular is the kind that can readily propagate itself -- the sort of error that looks correct to people who don't know the idiom.

>>90057555
When Pete "died" was one of the most recent times. A bit before that there was a decent run.

>>90057555
Civil War.
The unmasking shit took so much nonsense to undo it, it ended up leading to stuff like One More Day. Civil War was the moment that they officially ran out of ideas for Spidey and their only options became either adhere rigidly to the status quo or go in a totally stupid direction.

>>90057555

When Peter Parker was a clone.

>>90067470
The Spider-Man tie-ins to Civil War and Back in Black were both good, even great at times. Peter going full manhunter against Fisk is a classic moment. Hell, even though the plot of OMD is asinine, the scripting is still good. The retcon itself, however, is when shit dies.

>>90057555
They're doing it wrong, he needs to shoot spiders not web.