Is Batman being insane canon? The end of Killing Joke pretty

>>89847603
Personally, I prefer Batman to be written as being at least a little mentally unstable if not equally as psychotic as his rogues in a different way.

>>89847700
Same. Doesnt really work when he is with the Justice League though

No, Batman is perfectly sane. Things he does don't make sense because it's a superhero comic book, not because he's mentally unwell.

Insane Batman isn't compelling to me. Just feels kind of lazy and diminishes heroism as part of an illness rather than an actual choice.

>>89847603
Is it not normal to be thinking about other stuff while having sex with a beautiful woman?

>>89847603

Sorta but not really. He's crazy but being Batman is therapy for him. He would be an unstable, unhappy person if he was not out being Batman.

>>89847838
Why can't it be illness and a choice. I actually think it dimensionalises the character and better fits the setting of Gotham City as a breeding ground of psychos and crooks: even the city's protector is kind of a nutcase, but at least he's the nutcase fighting the good fight.

>>89847889
I guess I just meant that the perspective of the insanity argument is generally that no one would go out in a costume and try to do good unless their impulse control was impaired and that's boring to me. If there was a very specific illness described that wouldn't be directly related (like how Jessica Cruz has anxiety) then it could work. But it seems like "he's as crazy as his villains" stuff doesn't have that aim.

I'm sure it works for some but it's not for me at least.

>>89847889
Batman being crazy doesnt make sense. Especially when put him in the Justice League, because he isnt being a hero for righteous cause like the others. He is doing it because he is deranged. It also kill his character because Batman is supposed the model human being not just some crazy guy

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>>89847603
He dresses up as a bat and fights crime.
He dresses up as a bat and fights crime.
He dresses up as a bat and fights crime.
He dresses up as a bat and fights crime.

>>89847889
>I actually think it dimensionalises the character
I think it does the opposite, it turns him into a caricature.

>>89848142
Are you arguing that people who are mentally unstable are incapable of having a morality system?

I just don't see why it has to be a matter of one or the other. My personal favourite interpretation of the character is that he is indeed mentally instable, but that his instability is balanced by his vast intellect and the trigger of his psychosis: the death of his parents. Just like the focal point of Ivy's psychosis is plants and the focal point of Riddler's psychosis is riddles, I like to believe that the focal point of Batman's psychosis is crime.

I guess you could argue that that detracts from the character in a way, but I feel strongly that the inner turmoil of Batman realising on some levels that he's not quite right in the head and still wanting to go out and do the right thing is interestingto see.

Also the Justice League argument is pretty irrelevant. They let guys like Hawkman in and he has canonically been portrayed as being crazy. Plus it's not as if Batman isn't know for being one of the more problematic and abrasive members of the Justice League anyway, even at the best of times.

As much as he's tried to rationalise his actions, a lot of what Batman does concerning other members of the Justice League and even members of his own Batfamily could easily be considered anti-social behaviour bordering on the sociopathic.

>>89848290
That just shows a lack of understanding of the intricacies and subtleties of mental instability.

>>89847603
Well yeah that's Batman's thing
You side with him because he is the hero and also he is anti killing
It's also a superhero comic so you bend your disbelief
But still on those terms, most heroes have a normal life outside of crime fighting, there is no Bruce Wayne just a cover up

>>89848142
>Batman is supposed the model human being
no.

>>89848325
Mental instability and character depth aren't mutually inclusive. Nobody's written Batman the way you're describing him, he's either perfectly sane (like in Denny O'Neil's run) or cartoonishly nuts (most shitty Batman stories, like Fortunate Son).

>>89847603
looks like anime eyes, can't stop laughing

>>89847603
I like my Batman paranoid, not insane - and only just paranoid enough for others to question him.

>>89848483
You can have good characters that are also insane

>>89848417
Saying there's no Bruce Wayne is too simplistic. The real Bruce Wayne is merely closer to the Batpersona than the public one, but he still exists or the death of the parents wouldn't matter. Being Bruce Wayne still matters.

Batman isn't insane, he's high functioning autistic

People who try to argue that Batman being mentally unstable detracts from his character in any way only understand the character on a shallow, superficial level and who want him to be just another god in the pantheon.

I feel like even a cursory glance at Batman's backstory and MO is enough to provide ample evidence that the guy isn't right in the head.

He loses his parents as a kid and immediately becomes an emotionless husk with blatant symptoms of PTSD.

He decides to devote his entire life into becoming stronger and smarter than everyone else so that he can never be hurt again.

He returns to his city after years and starts going around beating the shit out of muggers and crime bosses with his bare hands and ignoring the warnings of his father figure.

A bat flies through his window, he stands up and utters the words "Yes, father, I shall become a bat."

He develops a dissociative identity in Bruce Wayne which he uses as a glib, superficially charming mask to hide his true nature as Batman.

He actually garners some sort of perverse enjoyment out of punishing criminals and becomes absorbed in his identity as the Batman to the point of branding all his gear and modelling them after bats.

He is almost incapable of letting people into his life on an emotional and personal level, constantly pushing them away with anti-social behaviour, autistic posturing and a gravelly voice.

When he does make friends, he still refuses to be socially healthy towards them and secretly thinks of all the different ways he could take them down if they turn on him like everyone else.

He has a distaste towards killing and a controlling need to make others do things his way that seem more pathological than they do noble.

The only real romantic relationships he has are self-destructive or shallow.

And any future scenario shows him as a bitter, twisted old man without a friend in the world or a single joy in life.

The man isn't fucking well, guys, come on.

>>89848686

What would you call somebody showing those symptoms

>>89848598
If Batman was a marvel character, would he be half-jewish but consider the "elders of zion" conspiracy to be semi-credible like Bobby Fisher?

>>89848748
I certainly wouldn't call him a "model human being" or a picture of mental health.

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>>89847603
The thumbnail looks like Whitensake. Even the eyes are the same.

>>89848786

>I certainly wouldn't call him a "model human being" or a picture of mental health.

c'mon someones gotta have the panel

>>89848748
Someone with untreated PTSD, which over the years has caused severe paranoia.

>>89848686
Most of this is hyperbole in an attempt to suit your argument but in particular

>and secretly thinks of all the different ways he could take them down if they turn on him like everyone else.

That part is normal for a hero. Tower of Babel itself said that much. His sin was writing them down so that they could be stolen.

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Am I the only one who thinks that people who categorically want Batman to be perfectly sane are the boring ones?

>>89848658
It depends on who is writing him
Best thing he could do is try to get over it, he does the opposite instead

The thing is we're not using the term "insane" to mean "completely out of control, loose grip on reality", it just means Batman has psychological issues, all of the masked vigilante mystery-man type characters have to have them to some degree to justify what they do.

Superman was born with these powers and uses them to help. Other heroes and villains are in accidents and are given powers, and they choose to use them for good or evil.

People like Batman and the Joker just had to wake up one day and decide they were going to dress up in a costume, despite having no powers to speak of. And that's what TKJ is all about, I think: that there's something deeper than just a sense of justice or being an evil asshole that drives characters like these, something unique to them. There's more psychologically to a character like Batman than there can ever be for one like Superman just because of that, and thus there exists a relationship between him and his villains that is naturally closer than Superman and his villains.

Note that I'm not saying anything bad about Superman.

I like the idea that Bruce Wayne is completely healthy, but batman isn't mentally there.

Bruce just dumps all the stress on that persona, he doesn't even recognize him and batman are the same.

I don't like the idea of a crazy Batman, but a slightly-off Batman seems appealing because a completely straight-laced Batman is rather unbalanced. Bruce Wayne being a charming, playboy, billionaire by day and stern, dogged bat-costume wearing vigilante fighting crazy super villains by night is a mismatched duality. It makes Bruce Wayne seem like some sociopathic façade, and then suddenly straight-laced, sane Batman is actually crazy Batman. Batman needs an unevenness to his character, but too much in either direction is a bit much.

>>89848809
Is that the cartoon Aqualad?

>>89848883
I mean, you can't dress up as a bat and still call yourself completely sane. Still, having him be completely crazy while still maintaining his Bruce Wayne persona is a bit hard to swallow.

>>89848600
Sure, but that doesn't mean insanity makes Batman a better character.

>>89848938
It definitely makes him a trifle more believable.

>>89848883
>Am I the only one
Fuck off.

>>89848883
Crazy Batman people have no imagination. Case in point >>89848972

What part of "dressing like a bat and beating people up" sounds sane to you?

Batman is just as crazy as his Rogues, only difference is he found a better outlet.

>>89848911
>It makes Bruce Wayne seem like some sociopathic façade

It is. Batman Beyond touched on this at the end of the first Shriek episode.

>>89849009
>Unable to rationalise the idea of a character being even slightly mentally unbalanced and also a good person with a strong morality system
>accuses other people of lacking imagination

>>89848686
You are retarded. Batman isnt your normal superhero but he isnt insane.
>He decides to devote his entire life into becoming stronger and smarter than everyone else so that he can never be hurt again.
You are basically saying any guy that fights crime is insane
>He loses his parents as a kid and immediately becomes an emotionless husk with blatant symptoms of PTSD.
Lots of heroes lose their loved ones as a backstory.

I could argue more but youre an autist and I'm too lazy to deconstruct all your claims

>>89848972
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwuYDT2GshA

>>89849018
Shut up, Boco.

>>89849061
There's a difference between suspension of disbelief and a character being believable on a psychological and characteristic level, though.

Too much of Batman's behaviour seems mentally unbalanced for me to believe any argument that he is 100% a sane and emotionally balanced person

>>89849088

Yes sir...

>>89848891
>Note that I'm not saying anything bad about Superman.
Are you scared or something? Does a superman fan have a gun to your head? wtf

>>89849043
He could be imbalanced but if your argument is whether it's "believable" you have a personal problem with fantasy and do lack imagination

>>89849140
>Does a superman fan have a gun to your head?
How do you know he doesn't?

>>89849140
Not as much these days but a few years ago /co/mrades would get really defensive if you said anything that could be construed as meaning you think Batman is better than Superman.

>>89848938
Well a little bit of conflict doesn't hurt
Say Batman really wants to kill the bad guys but has to keep himself from actually doing it even if sometimes it's really hard
That's exciting

>>89849054
>You are basically saying any guy that fights crime is insane

No, you have to take into consideration the motivations here.

Superman decided to fight crime because he could literally bench a skyscraper and he realised people needed someone like him around.

Wonder Woman decided to fight crime because she could literally bench a bus and had been trained as a protector of innocents from birth.

Green Lantern fights crime because he was given great power and adopted into a milennia old organisation of space cops.

Barry Allen fights crime because he was given extraordinary powers and realised that he could use them to help people.

Then you have Batman who decided to fight crime when he was, like, ten years old because he saw his parents get murdered before his very eyes and died inside because of it.

One of these things is not like the others. Most heroes decide to fight crime incidentally or out of a desire to protect innocent people with their fantastic powers. Batman fights crime because he committed himself to punishing all criminals after a severe traumatic event that scarred him as a child. How could anyone look at the origins behind the character and argue that he's not only perfectly sane, but just like every other superhero who got badass powers and thought "oh, sweet, hey, I could really help people out with these"?

>Lots of heroes lose their loved ones as a backstory.

Again, let's compare Batman with other heroes who lost their loved ones.

Superman loses his entire planet: still a nice and emotionally healthy guy with a network of friends and no social problems whatsoever.

Spider-Man loses his father figure: still a nice and emotionally healthy guy with a network of friends and no social problems whatsoever (besides being a fucking nerd).

Batman loses his parents: becomes an emotionally distant and extremely paranoid loner with two distinct personalities and a bat fetish.

False equivalence.

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>>89847603
>>89848255
Ever ready to spread your quizzical conundrums, are you, Riddler? Your fiendish brain-teasers are no match for a sharpened mind on the side of justice!

You posted the phrase "He dresses up as a bat and fights crime." four times. This pattern denotes that every fourth letter of the sentence should be extracted, giving us "R E A A D H R."

Now this could be an acronym or code word of sorts, but you also posted a picture of a washing machine, which are infamous for spinning things around. This clue indicates that the phrase is in actuality an anagram! The most obvious deconstruction was "HAD REAR," but I deeply pondered this possibility during a brief meeting with Catwoman, and determined this couldn't possibly be the case. No, your riddles never skim the surface.

Out of all the possible anagrams, only one had a connection to current events: RAD HARE.
It's no secret that the supercriminal March Harriet was only recently released from Arkham Asylum, and it is clear that you intend to strike a partnership with her in spite of her supposed reformation!
The word rad is often used in popular lingo to denote something that was "cool," this phrase being most associated with the 1990's.

Given these two elements, it is clear that you and March Harriet will attempt to rob the Gotham Expo on the day that the 90's Toy Roadshow comes to visit! Factoring mint conditions and heavy nostalgia, the two of you would make a fortune from stolen pogs, skateboards and other such "rad" toys!

But know this, Riddler: it is my sworn duty as a public defender to ensure your "rad" crime ends up as a "bogus wipeout!"

>>89849146
>hurr no imagination

Okay, let's step outside of your Bat-Erection for a moment and take a character like, say, Moon Knight.

Now Moon Knight talks to an ancient god of the hunt. He dresses up in white and fights crime at night so bad guys can see him. He sometimes talks to voices in his head and hallucinates things.

All of this is believable to me because I can suspend my disbelief and use my imagination to accept that this is a fantastical setting.

But taking all of this information and then trying to argue that he is a model of mental health with no hang ups or instabilities whatsoever? That's not believable to me because it flies in the face of what I know to be true about the character, which is that he talks to a god and runs around in white pajamas talking to voices in his head.

Do you see what I'm trying to say here?

>>89849313
>Superman decided to fight crime because he could literally bench a skyscraper and he realised people needed someone like him around.

Superman is more firefighter than police officer. And he would continue to save people regardless of powers as he's done in multiple stories where he's lost them.

Shit pretty much all of your takes are inaccurate. You don't understand any of these heroes yet you claim to understand Batman? Why should we believe you?

>>89849313
>Most heroes decide to fight crime incidentally or out of a desire to protect innocent people with their fantastic powers.
So every no powers super hero is insane? Might as well call the whole Batfamily, Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, and etc insane
>Batman loses his parents: becomes an emotionally distant and extremely paranoid loner with two distinct personalities and a bat fetish.
Batman being angry and depressed is part of his persona to strike fear into criminals. He is clearly stable and healthy when he is Bruce Wayne. Kill yourself autist

>>89847603
its not canon at all, no one ever calls him out on his shit or tries to get him help. in fact tons of other heroes follow in his footsteps to a lesser degree. they like to make little hints in his own stories that hes insane, but really none of that matters when two seconds later they are being pals and acting like batman is the greatest around and just a normal guy. hell tons of people even fall in his footsteps. it just falls into comic insanity where we might perceive it as insanity but in universe its totally normal and fine.

>>89849451
You lack reading comprehension.

My point here isn't that Superman saves people. I'm well aware that he would save people regardless of whether or not he had powers. But what motivated Superman to become Superman in the first place was the realisation that he had amazing powers from a very young age and the knowledge that he could use those powers to positively influence the lives of others.

Can you please stop throwing shitty accusations and nitpickings which allow you to superficially appear as if you have the upper hand and actually engage with the points I'm making here. Do you see the fundamental difference between what encourages the vast majority of superheroes to don costumes and fight crime and what encourages Batman to don a costume and fight crime? Dissociate yourself from your love of the character and tell me that you are able to logically grasp why Batman's backstory and motivations and personality type set him apart from Superman's or Spider-Man's or Captain America's.

>>89848748
A dick

>>89847603
Sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't. What do you personally find better? Because it's up to you, the reader, the watcher, the entertained, to decide that for yourself! Don't let others tell you what Batman is or isn't, he can be anything; a dark knight, or >>89849384

>>89849519
>So every no powers super hero is insane?
I could make the argument that a lot of no powers heroes have a tendency to be perfectly normal people who are suddenly spurred into making dramatic and oftentimes illogical changes to their ordinary lives following extremely traumatic events that would shake most people's sanity. In which case, it could be argued that quite a few of these no-power heroes are, in fact, mentally unstable on some level. The difference, however, between Batman and no-power heroes like Green Arrow, The Question, Iron Man and even Nightwing is that all those other characters despite their trauma are still able to seamlessly integrate into social situations without the use of dissociative personalities or anti-social behaviour. Green Arrow and Oliver Queen aren't usually portrayed as being two distinct personality types. Sure, he plays it up to divert attention, but they are fundamentally the same person. The same goes for the other examples. Batman on the other hand is such a far cry from Bruce Wayne that it's very apparent that there is something not quite right in the guy's head. There's no glimmer of Bruce Wayne in Batman and vice versa. As soon as he's behind closed doors, Batman ceases to be this persona he's constructed with ease. That's not necessarily pants shittingly insane, but it's not perfectly sane.

>Batman being angry and depressed is part of his persona to strike fear into criminals. He is clearly stable and healthy when he is Bruce Wayne.
And you're arguing that I don't get Batman.

>>89849407
>Do you see what I'm trying to say here?

Not really.

If you read a good Batman story by a writer who doesn't seem him as crazy and honestly think it's unbelievable for that aspect then I don't know what to tell you. You can say you don't prefer it, but it shouldn't challenge your suspension of disbelief.

>>89849018
Are all the other non powered heroes crazy as well? Is Blue Beetle crazy? Question? Wildcat? Green arrow? All the robins? Are they all crazy?

>>89849800
So you do see what I'm saying, but you're insisting that I shouldn't be even the least bit skeptical when someone makes the argument that there's literally nothing wrong with Batman psychologically? Because as far as I recall, most of the all-time greatest Batman runs touch upon the fact that Batman's behaviour is, at the very least, abnormal. Maybe they don't stake a claim on whether or not he's insane, but his actions and internal dialogue are rarely shown as being unassailably healthy.

>>89849777
>Batman on the other hand is such a far cry from Bruce Wayne that it's very apparent that there is something not quite right in the guy's head.

Hmmmm. Superman and Clark Kent arent alike whatsoever. As well as Peter/Spiderman. THEY MUST BE INSANE!

>There's no glimmer of Bruce Wayne in Batman and vice versa. As soon as he's behind closed doors, Batman ceases to be this persona he's constructed with ease. That's not necessarily pants shittingly insane, but it's not perfectly sane.

Every superhero does this. Fuck off with your autism

>>89849810
>Blue Beetle
No, but he also has no problems socialising with and trusting other people.

>Question
Possibly. The Question was kind of uneven.

>Wildcat
See Blue Beetle.

>Green Arrow
Possibly a little bit, but unlike Batman he seems to have actually gotten over his trauma and become a healthy person.

>All the Robins
Dick, Tim and Steph? No.
Jason and Damian? Maybe.

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>>89849384
You make this board great

>>89849927
>Superman and Clark Kent arent alike whatsoever
Yes they are though. The only real difference is that Clark Kent is more bumbling and awkward, which is literally just him putting on a show to throw others off the trail. Likewise, Superman is just him puffing up his chest and being a role model. When Superman takes off his cape and he's around people who know who he is, he's the real Clark Kent that he was before he came to Metropolis and he's also Superman. There's no dramatic gap between the personalities like Batman: he's a healthy, well-rounded person who plays his dual identities up for the sake of others, not himself.

>Every superhero does this
Name one who isn't also a mentally unstable vigilante type.

>>89849906
I guess my point is that him being abnormal or eccentric does not mean there's anything wrong with him and it's not required for a Batman story to work internally to suggest the idea that there is. It's not inherent or strictly canon.

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>>89849384
you're the best Anon.

>>89849384
Bravo!

>>89848839
>hyperbole
those are stablished character traits nerd

>>89850099
Well yeah it's not something that strictly needs to be touched upon. His mental health doesn't always have to be a subject to make a good Batman story. My only argument was that I find it difficult to reconcile the character's actions with the idea that he is a completely sane and healthy person with no issues whatsoever. That doesn't mean that depictions in which this element of the character isn't explored are bad, I just don't think it shows a lack of imagination to weigh up his actions against such a statement.

>thinking a brooding narcissist who dresses up like a bat and fights people at night together with his child soldier army is in his right mind

Not textbook joker or Harley Quinn cuckoo for cocoa puffs crazy, but definitely something wrong with him. Why do you think he has trouble socializing and/or truly connecting with others. The only thing he does well is being batman it's his only focus. He's like that autistic kid that can't function normally but give him a complex puzzle or something and he can solve it ridiculously easy.

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Is he insane? No he's just completely dead inside. Bruce Wayne died with his parents in that alley and exists only as a spirit of vengeance now.

>>89850231
being completely dead inside is a little insane, tbqh

>>89849384
Is there a collage of all the posts that are like this?
Because I need it, and I think anyone who writes Riddler stories needs it.

>>89850044
You are retarded or have some hatred for a fictional character dressed as Bat that you dont understand what telling you. No use arguing with an autist because I know you enjoy going back and forth me even though you are wrong. Dont reply to me.

>Name one who isn't also a mentally unstable vigilante type.
Literally every non powered hero

How hard is it for you understand that Batman and Superman both have differing personalities to protect their alter egos? By your logic every superhero must be insane.

>>89850212
I guess that's the problem to me with what you're suggesting. There's not always something there to explore. There are universes where he's well adjusted and gets married and has a kid with the woman he loves. Those stories can't be viewed in a lens that he has mental health issues but that doesn't make them unbelievable and refusing to accept them for what they are DOES show that there's an imagination problem to me. Or at least you can't let go of your headcanons for a moment to accept what's on the page.

he's not insane like his rogues are insane

he just has a personality disorder combined with PTSD that makes him go about solving his problems in a way that most people wouldn't

as another example, peter parker isn't "insane" but he's basically entirely driven by an inferiority complex that compels him to be as good as he can for the people that he cares about rather than simple altruism

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>>89850217
>Why do you think he has trouble socializing and/or truly connecting with others.
He doesn't tho. He's very open, thoughtful and caring. It's just that he plays the asshole because he knows that someone needs to do/say the things the others won't. He needs to contrast light in the world with the darkness.

>>89850466
what comic is this from?

>>89850287
I've got a few screencaps from various threads over the years.
http://imgur.com/a/ydHSh

>>89850354
>ur dumb lol dumb autist
Christ, it's like arguing with a toddler.

>Literally every non-powered superhero
Iron Man doesn't have a dissociative personality. Nor does Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Daredevil, Captain America, Nightwing, Batgirl, War Machine, Red Robin, Black Widow, Batwoman, Wildcat, Mr. Terrific, Star-Lord...

And to throw some powered heroes into the mix: Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flashes 1-4, Spider-Man, Thor, Plastic Man, The Thing, The Human Torch, The Invisible Woman, Wolverine or the vast majority of X-Men, Green Lanterns 1-4, Vixen, Black Lightning, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Booster Gold, Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, Starfire or fucking Toad Man.

I actually quite like Batman as a character, I'm just not delusional enough to pretend that what he does is anything similar to what a mentally healthy superhero does.

>inb4 "hurr autist shut the fuck up"

>>89850500
Thanks anon.

>>89849384
>but I deeply pondered this possibility during a brief meeting with Catwoman

I chuckled

>>89850390
What you're suggesting as an imagination, anon, seems to be more akin to accepting your own "headcanon" that any writer who doesn't outright state that he's insane in-story is writing him as being perfectly sane. It feels like you're attributing sanity to any Batman story where he isn't swinging around on a chandelier slapping his bare naked chest with a ladle. Batman's mental health isn't always touched upon, but assuming that every story in which he does anything rational is a story in which he is in peak mental health with no burdens whatsoever is equally as unimaginative as my believing that the character's actions add up to his being mentally unstable by your argument.

I've read quite a few Batman stories and I don't believe many come out and say the guy is 100% certifiably not mentally unstable if any. It's open to interpretation. It just so happens that your interpretation differs from mine and, rather hubristically, you've decided that that means I lack the imagination you apparently possess in spades.

>>89850497
I thinks it's superman #38 or 39. It was when new 52 Clark got the Supernova powers.

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>>89850354
>No, shut up! I win! Don't respond to this post, I get the last word in because I win! Pffffbbbbbttttt!

Classic.

>>89850713
No, I'm saying the opposite actually, that you seem to interpret non-statements of insanity to be assumed insanity. Personally I read the word and judge based on that context without making an assumption of the version they're writing because sanity or not doesn't change whether it's a "believable" Batman story. I'm willing to let the characterization play out however they prefer but you choose to project one interpretation regardless and seem unable to accept a different take when presented.

Or am I reading you wrong and you DO actually accept that the non-crazy Batversions are fine in their own way and not unbelievable and the original post was being dramatic? If so then I don't know what we're talking about.

>>89850868
My interpretation of the character's instability is typically drawn from the actions leading up to his becoming Batman with some of the canonical examples from certain stories feeding into that.

Of course in the context of the story itself, I read things as they come and interpret them within that context, but every now and then he does something which to me doesn't seem particularly stable (i.e. the whole maiming Jason Todd to stop him from killing the Joker thing).

I accept all interpretations of the character, naturally, as he's a character who has been written by hundreds of people, but my personal interpretation on a fundamental level based mostly on his origin, which is generally immutable, is that the guy isn't quite all there

>>89850354
>don't talk to me or my post ever again

>>89850354
t. autist

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>>89849384

>>89850466
Literary depends on the writer and I for one prefer him being a dick. It makes sense for someone who is always brooding and thinks of nothing but exacting justice on criminals. Cynical I guess is a good way to put it. The only bat I don't like is batgod.

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Batman is not an entirely stable person. He's a billionaire with a childhood trauma which shaped him into becoming a crime fighter. Spends every night patrolling the city so if we think about in terms of real life, this individual would probably have extreme insomnia and other psychological illnesses.

Not to mention that Batman has a huge ego as well, only live action and mainstream versions don't really touch upon this as much, if ever.

>>89851356
I'm okay with Batman being an asshole too but not a unredeemable one. I like when Batman is a dick but still is compassionate. I know the cartoons are for casuals but I like that Timms Batman still had a heart of gold underneath all the darkness. It makes sense why so many people like Clark and Dick care so deeply about him.

>>89851727
I like a Batman who gets colder and colder as he ages, slowly alienating all those he once called friends.

This allows for both friendly and asshole Batman.

>>89848483
>Morrison
>Snyder
>Brubaker
>Dini
Could you possibly be more wrong?

The only people who would seriously try and argue that Batman is crazy are just the tasteless shits who WANT him to be crazy. They'll probably tell you they are a Batman fan when in actuality they can't stand the character. They like the idea that Batman lost the fight, and will probably say him dying alone in a gutter with everyone in the world hating him is his best end. Every superhero wears a costume. It's not crazy to fight crime, or to be obsessive, or utterly selfless. They probably think stuff like OP's page or Tower of Babel or shit like that are examples of good Batman characterization.

It's shitheads like them that serve only to dissemble all the great work writers like O'Neil, Wein, Englehart, etc. did with the character because they like the idea that Batman is closer to villain than hero. They don't like the idea of other characters liking him. They don't like him having healthy relationships with his friends, family, or lovers. They want stories about him failing or being proven wrong by a character they like instead of him being one of the greatest heros in comics.

>>89848142
>Batman is the model human being
That's a meme, nothing about Batman is humanely possible.

>>89847603
Batman isn't insane, he's just emotionally traumatized. Joker is insane.

The difference between Batman and Joker is "One bad day. That's all it takes to push someone over the edge, to snap." - Keith Ledger, I think.

Joker and Batman both had bad days, once upon a time. They just went in different directions with how they responded to it.

>>89848686
Batfags BTFO. Bruce is fucking crazy in every incarnation where Batman is the real persona. Batfags get asshurt whenever he's not Batgod, Lord of Preptime.

>>89847603
>being able to see his eyes with the mask on

HOW?

>>89852334
lenses are by definition not opaque

>>89848891
I mean choosing to use your powers to wear tights and a cape and fight crime instead of making a shit load of money isn't exactly what the average person would do either. The main difference between Clark and Bruce is Clark has never really deliberately surprised his humanity. He's lost his planet and his parents, way more dead relatives than Bruce, but he's just healthier emotionally. Bruce's alter ego came from a desire for justice while Clark's came from a desire for altruism.

>>89850575
Not that guy but I don't see how acting like a bimbo or fop to prevent people thinking you're actual some masked crusader is particularly strange. It's ripped straight from Zorro after all.

Batman being crazy kind of doesn't make sense considering the larger DCU. I mean there have been masked heroes before him and plenty of others who do the same who no one see as crazy.

I understand him being a control freak and intense with an alpha tier type personality like a Steve Jobs or Kobe Bryant but actually nutso needing to be in an asylum like Mad Hatter or Poison Ivy? I don't buy it.

>>89849212
Pretty much everywhere you go Batwanking is in full effect so I can understand people getting tired of it.

To be honest I'm just fucking tired of seeing people write Bruce as a huge hypocritical bitch. Like when Timm and Dini had Bruce of all people tell Clark to "cry him a river" because Clark was still fucked up from Darkseid mind-raping him. Why does Bats have to be an asshole all the time? The Brave and The Bold was such a fucking godsend for ditching asshole Batman.

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>>89848822

>>89850354
>T. Autistic Batfag
Why you cocks get so butthurt when someone points out your manchild role model is a little cuckoo?

>>89852721
Batman is the ultimate self-insert/aspiration character so people get a little bent out of shape when you infer that he isn't a perfect human specimen whose only flaw is that he cares TOO MUCH.

>>89852721
>>89852782

>Batman is literally a psychopath
>No he isn't.
>WTF FUCKING AUTISTIC SELF-INSERT KEKS JUST MAD A CHARACTER YOU LIKE ISN'T LITERALLY PERFECT IN ANY WAY

You people are such a broken record.

>>89852782
Honestly this is why I can't stand Batman in anything but his own self contained stories. Always the most moral of the bunch, the greatest ever, the pinnacle of humanity. Literally every other character is shown to have some kind of obvious flaw or weak moment in a story, but never Batman oh no he always has the answers to everything, always the one to save the day. Give it a fucking rest, hes a mentally ill sad sack loser who regularly lets criminals escape and murder people, the same thing he is still traumatized over like 40 fucking years later. If everyone acted like him we'd see thousands of "heroes" around Gotham. You know he has no regard for law until it comes to killing. He can make planes, jets, secret bases, dimensional technology, but he can't just build a fucking secure prison to house these fucking lunatics where they can't escape.

>>89848748
Batman.

>>89853172
He's not really portrayed that way though. Jack of all trades, master of none.

>>89849018
I like you, Boco.

You're good people.

>>89849384
Marry me and have my children.

>>89850044
I hate that type of Clark Kent, he can be himself and not drive up any attention.

>>89847603
The real question is if she's nuts for being in love with him?
But I guess she's never going to get an answer to that one by chatting with Harley...

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>>89848255

I sell these at my job.

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>>89849384
>The most obvious deconstruction was "HAD REAR," but I deeply pondered this possibility during a brief meeting with Catwoman
Fucking hell

I like a Batman thats just really depressed and does what he does not because of insanity but because he doesn't want anyone else to have to feel the pain he feels. I absolutely hate "paranoid asshole" and "insane but doing the right thing" Batman, and I hate Alan Moore for trying to be "deep" by trying to psychoanalyse him

>>89859909
You have to do "crazy".
If you don't have him battling his own madness Bruce becomes a shamefully shallow character.

>>89847603
If some villain would go back in time and save bat's parents by giving Joe Chill some money, turning batman into spoiled playboy, would batman go and kill his parents to save himself?

Batman being insane depends on the writer.I think that most of his recent writers favor the Barman is insane theory.

Personally,I think that he is mentally unstable but not as insane as some of the people posting on this thread think he is.

>>89861063
Mask of the Phantasm was a depressed Bruce/Bats without any "crazy" and that version of him is great

>>89849384
How do you do these things you do

>>89849384
It was only now that I realize Adam West posts here.

Course he is, ya numbskull! HE DRESSES UP IN A BAT COSTUME AND BEATS UP CRIMINALS

Are you being for real right now?

God forbid the illness-blindness from the DC world infect this place too. Honestly, I'm convinced the Joker was just a random dude who saw a dude in a bat costume beating up criminals on the evening news, started, laughing, and never stopped. It's HILARIOUS.

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Everyone in the Bat-family is fucking coocoo.

At least Cass is cute, though.

>>89847603
Rebirth Batman is either insane or a complete and utter cunt.

>>89863305
Cass x Random Dancer Girl is the real OTP.

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>>89863326
It hurts so good.

>>89863305
>>89863357
Part of me wants to write a story about Superdad (because Bruce is dicks) introducing Cass' civilian identity to the dancing school and attending her lessons.

Because I'm a fucking sap that likes feelgood stuff.

>>89863357
Cass throwing the smoke bomb is probably the best thing that Tynion has ever written. Haven't we all wanted to do the same at some point, but lacked the equipment?

>>89848142
>because Batman is supposed the model human being
That's Superman.

>>89847603
No, that is a stupid meme, being batman is insane, but he isn't insane, that's the point of Morrison arkham story.

Bruce is emotionally retarded tho, but not mentally ill.

>>89848295
He is anti social and narcissistic but that doesn't make him insane

>>89849018

>What part of "dressing like a bat and beating people up" sounds sane to you?

Weird and insane aren't the same thing, especially since cape comics share the assumption that costumed crime fighting is a normalized behavior.

Batman is mad like Ahab. I think that's pretty clear, but I'm struggling to see what anyone's point is here beyond that.

>>89848598
He isn't paranoid you dumbass, there's nothing paranoid about batman by definition. He is right about everything he is prepared and everything he fears it will happen. >>89849313

If I weren't on a phone I would point out how stupid most if your arguments are, specially the ptsd stuff, but you use arguments like cartoons or the fact someone that grew up being exceptional and doing exceptional things ends up being different that others as proof of insanity. As for the bat stuff you should actually do a quick search for the historical satanic meaning of bats in the west, the while point of the superstitious lot bit was that bats in the 40s had a satanic "bad omen" significance. We only know bats are spooky thanks to batman being such a big icon in the western world that changed the meaning of 600 years if Christian folklore.

>>89862867
>Batman's face reflected in Booster's visor
It's the little things...

>>89848255
That doesn't look safe.

>laughs at a joke in the end of killing joke

HAHA WOW SO INSANE XD MOMS GONNA FREAK!

>>89848255

>He dresses up as a bat and fights crime.

Which a completely normal sane thing to do in comic book universes. This is the worst argument for batman being insane ever.

>>89864461
what does count as insane if those don't?

>>89864461
>>89866939

>Batman
>narcissistic

jeez the casuals in this thread

>>89861323
You would be wrong

>>89852072
Morrison is opposed to the crazy meme

We need to drive him crazy enough to rape the Joker.

>>89848255
Does this make people like Huntress and Nightwing worse since they dress up as just edgier versions of themselves to fight crime? They could not even get animal themes?

ITT: People who think "neurotic" means "insane"

Why do people pretend that western comic book characters are defined as a singular character?

Batman is whatever the fuck the writer wants him to be.

>>89847603
He's a Gotham citizen. go figure.

>>89864688
How about the whole Brother Eye thing? Pretty much Batman's paranoid incarnate.

>>89868197

Batman when written by Geoff Johns is a completely different character.

>>89852712
That's Hugo Strange in a Bat-costume, you non-comics reader.

>>89848686
What do you think of the animated series interpretation, where Bruce is willing to give up being Batman and "the mission" for Andrea in Mask of the Phantasm?

>>89849810
The Question is not a good example.

>>89847603

There's only one small difference between him and the workoholic guy at my workplace who's perfectionnist, unsatisfied and checks everything just in case: he's the fucking Batman.
He backs it up every single issue. It isn't being insane if there's no gap between your high standards and your actual actions. That guy at my job, he's delusionnal. Batman works with the Flash and Superman, he can't afford less than perfection. He won't get fired: people will die.

That's what makes the small difference between him and the guys he's running after and why he wins, he's prepared and adaptative (sometimes to the point of being his own Deus Ex Machina for some writers).

For example, he always expects the best from his partners, but that's because anything less could result in their violent death. Honestly a more human and laid back Batman would be less believable.

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>>89849384
Westposting is Bestposting.

>>89859909
>I like a Batman thats just really depressed and does what he does not because of insanity but because he doesn't want anyone else to have to feel the pain he feels.
Agreed.
>I hate Alan Moore for trying to be "deep" by trying to psychoanalyse him
To be fair, I think Moore regrets doing this too, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's more because of how the vast majority misread TKJ to just glean the surface level interpretation of "they're both crazy lol!"

But really, if Batman is already as insane as the Joker, then the former's efforts to reach out to the latter really are the futile fumbling of a blind man in the dark, and the story is just a nihilistic screed.

If you assume that Batman only ALMOST went crazy, because "he heard it before, and it wasn't funny the first time", then he's living proof that the Joker is wrong, that people can withstand their own darkest days without giving into madness, and his attempts to reach out to the Joker and his subsequent refusal of help become tragic.

TL,DR: Alan Moore writes tragedies, and tragic comedies, not nihilism.

>>89866480
No, it's a washing machine.

>>89862867
Best possible response.

>>89849384
A-Adam, is that you?

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>>89867447
This

>>89847603
>canon
Go back to /a/.

>>89853264
Anon he's regularly cited as being one of the smartest humans ever just behind Luthor.

>>89871059

>regularly

Can you name 5 examples from the past 20 years that infer he's a Luthor-level supergenius?

>>89847870
It's pretty normal, only a virgin (the fucking writer )would say otherwise.

Basically the only way to avoid blowing your load after the first minute.

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>>89850500

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>>89847603

>>89849384
I regret that only we on this board are party to such beautiful works.

Casuals have really taken over this place.

In a world of superheroes using your vast wealth to protect the city your parents were murdered in is the only sane thing to do.

>>89871158
Batman is the greatest tactician in the DCU, so yes he is a genius. "Genius" applies to a lot of things. Lebron James is a genius.

>>89871404

Well then it's really not all that unbelievably impressive then, is it?

>>89847700
>le batman is just as crazy as the villains omg it's so deep!

personally I hate this

>>89871419
Being the best tactician in the world is still very impressive.

Are you implying people that are the best in their respective fields are not impressive?

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>>89861323
It really depends on the writer you get people like azzarelli writing him like a fucking sociopath or Morrison who shows he's not all right in the head but he's still a good person trying to help others sure he's got psychological issues but he saw his parents get gunned down in front of him and lives in a world with immortal super assains, and alien invasion happening regularly

>>89871469

>unbelievably

I like you conveniently skip words. Selective reading, much? Also he's not explicitly THE best tactician. It's arguable, but not objective.

>>89871528
No, it's not. He's objectively the best tactician in the DCU. That and his money is the entire reason he is on the League.

I feel like you don't read comics mate if you don't know this.

>>89871584

Deathstroke. Savage. Luthor. Terrific. Constantine.

Fuck off, it's you who probably only reads Justice League shit written in the past 10 years and think you know what you're talking about.

>>89871708
Not a single person you just named is a better tactician considering Batman has outmaneuvered 3 out of 5 of those people on multiple occasions and the other two have went to him for advice.

The problem with the "batman is just as crazy as the people he fights" interpretation is mostly that it attracts pseudo intellectuals who like to jack off over how "deep" they think the whole thing is and how "smart" they are for getting it.

It's a fucking comic he dresses like a bat and fights crime because it's a fucking comic not because he's crazy. If he didn't there wouldn't be a story.

>>89871708
Do you even Morrison's JLA? You are making yourself look pretty dumb anon.

>every hero with a retarded colored costume is seem as heroic
>Batman a genius with a will of steel is seen as "le crazy xD"

Hate when writers try to act intellectual or put real world common sense on comics

What is with the nucasuals on this board that try to argue with people about things because the other anon has read more then they demand the anon provide the pages or the casual just keeps saying they are wrong?

To all of you who think Batman is crazy: what mental illness or illnesses do you think he possesses? They all have names, you know, and symptoms.

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>americans consider dressing up as a giant bat and going around beating up people in the middle of the night as "perfectly sane".

>>89871844
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

>>89871866
Why don't you call supes or Spider'-man crazy?
Even other heroes with no superpowers aren't called crazy.

>>89871764

Yes, I read it. Doesn't prove shit. Only a few years before Morrison's JLA Batman got BTFO by Bane.

>>89871731

Almost all of them have comparable feats. Deathstroke has beaten Batman. Bats has lost to people like Prometheus and Bane, who wouldn't be able to hold a candle to peeps like Luthor or Constantine.

>>89871784
Really? It's the color that breaks it for you? Are you Zack Snyder?

>>89871943
Who ever said they aren't crazy too?

>>89871897
With what symptoms?

>>89872007
Everyone who isn't a clueless tryhard.

>>89871943
I think it's a mix of batman's obsession with the type of crime that won't really ever stop, and the fact that he is powerless and still dresses up as a bat.

Arguably the Punisher is more sane than he is.

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>>89872043
Ah yes so I've been riding the B line with superheros all these years
Good to know

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>>89847603

Insanity isn't an off-on switch. Where does being driven end and being obsessed begin? When does a cause become a compulsion?

I think Batman definitely bumps up against the edge of insanity, and I also think that's a major theme in the mythos. Like, with the villains, we have so many examples of characters that are clearly insane, and we have other characters who do terrible things yet are ostensibly sane. Batman himself presents a sort of question as to how close you can get to both of those without tipping over the edge from hero to villain.

The possibility of him being insane is there, he has ample cause, and he does things that seem insane (cover everything in bat-related imagery, take on unrealistic expectations of himself, act in a manner that could be seen as obsessive, appear to show multiple personalities, et cetera), and he uses "criminal" tactics (invasion of privacy, vigilante activities, violence), but does he cross the line to being insane, or being a criminal? Is there a line, or does the appearance of a line depend on where you stand? Compare Batman to a normal person and of course he seems insane or immoral, but compare him to some of his villains and to people who've also been through his sort of life, and he's astonishingly sane and decent.

That's one of the central questions of Batman stories. Batman as a character is put as close to the edge of being insane and villainous as possible without pushing him all the way over, and we have to ask whether he's gone too far or not. It's a set of interesting questions, and beyond that, if he does remain a hero through all of it, then that heroism is all the more impressive for having endured.

Personally, I think Batman is at least a bit insane, but he controls and channels it productively. Which is the best that a lot of people can hope for.

>>89872024
Depending on the writer, his Flashbacks to his parents death. It being a major reason for him donning the cowl. His distrust for people and not wanting to get close. His distaste for guns. Arguably is hyperarousal.

It's not too crazy for a kid who saw his parents getting shot cold dead in an alley way though. It'd be more crazy for him not to have PTSD of the even. Also we're talking real PTSD. Not the OMG CRAZY TRIGGER FLASHBACK seen in media.

>>89872152
Your inability to tell fiction and reality apart is already one insanity-suggesting symptom than these fictional heroes do. Though I suspect you've just not thought these things through.

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>>89849384
Thank you
Thank you very much

>>89872109
Punisher ls legit sick with his total lack of remorse for offing thugs though. At least Bats still holds back a little.just imagine what the Punisher would do if he had Bruce's resources.

>>89872270
I could buy that, yeah.

>>89872359
I like the girl with her bare perky titties out.

>>89872374
Would make for a glorious series of its own

>>89872270
PTSD and the anxiety, depression and lashing out caused by it don't really fit the character that well though considering how active he is.

Judging by actions (disregard for societal norms, violent behavior, risktaking) alone anti-social behavior or even psychopathy would fit it better, but then you've got the unwavering sense of personal justice and other "good guy" actions that don't fit with a clinical lack of empathy.

Of course if there was some kind of link between PTSD and maladaptive perfectionism and obsessive behavior then that would also explain it.

t. armchair psychologist

>>89847700
Obsessive maybe to an unhealthy degree. Like not sleeping or getting laid cause he spends all his time solving crimes. I like how Morrison wrote him taking ten minute power naps.

>>89849384
HOW DOES HE DO IT!

>>89867813
This, Batman is an endlessly retold legend with different specifics.

We can all have a favorite Batman but there is no one true Batman.

>>89871943
people DO say spiderman is crazy from time to time (as well as really creepy), and not just JJJ.

as for supes i can sort of understand, he lives in the world of the fantastical--being an alien with godlike abilities who regularly needs to use them in defense of the planet or otherwise, and in a very public way. wearing the costume serves as a means to separate his living and working identities (because bad shit happens when villains/reporters find out who you are, and you will never ever know peace afterwards), And in some stories it's proper kryptonian gear, but that's kind of a dumb justification to me.

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>>89869990
kek

>>89873406

So Superman wearing a costume to protect his identity is alright, but when Batman does it it's a sign of insanity?

>>89871897
Having PTSD does not qualify one as insane, though. Pretty much all abuse survivors, combat veterans, and people who've lived through some shit (such as seeing your parents murdered in front of you when you're 8) have PTSD by definition.

>>89872152
You wish you could pull off dressing that swag, don't even lie

>>89847700
i prefer him being sane, but really having issues. dead parents issues, obsession issues and the like. not asylum worthy but maybe psych ward worthy if he snaps which would be a real feat

I don't know if I would go as far as insane, but the guy definitely has issues.

One theory I read here that I liked is that he has an extreme phobia of death. Maybe phobia isn't the right word, it's not so much a fear thing. Maybe more like a pathology. Like if you had to choose between saving one life right now or ten lives five minutes from now, you'd save the ten lives right? I actually think Batman wouldn't. He'd save the one guy now and try his absolute damndest to save the others as well even if it's impossible. But even if he had no idea how to save those other lives, I think he'd take that risk over knowingly letting a man die.

For me this is why he can't kill the joker even if it would save tons of lives later. I think he simply can't deal with death as an option, not only because of the questions of morality but because it's a line he simply can't cross psychologically.

Obviously some versions of batman will kill or allow people to die, but for me this all applies well enough to many interpretations of the character.

>>89873838
Not like he's really pulling it off either.

>>89866865
Except plenty of people in-universe comment on how crazy that is when you don't have powers.

>>89847603
>The end of Killing Joke pretty much confirms this.
>laughing at a joke means you're insane
Remember when /co/ wasn't full of twelve year olds?

>>89871444
No body said it was deep, it's just "oh look, he's almost as insane as the people that he captures" which in turn makes for a interesting dynamic between the method of Batman and how he turns in his villains. it's not deep, it's literally just ironic

>>89872152
You fool, that's clearly a super VILLAIN. You were lucky to get out alive.