Who is the better hero-villain pairing, Batman and the Joker

All-Star Superman cemented Luthor as a character who's wrapped around Superman like a fucking vine.

>>89697534
Supes and Luthor. The Joker sucks and shouldn't be shoved into everything just because people recognize him.

>>89697880
>>89697975
Yeah, I'd say Superman and Lex too

Luthor and Supes by far have the most consistently interesting hero/villain dynamic, regardless of what iteration either character is in. It probably helps that they've more or less been 'official' arch-enemies since "Atom Man vs. Superman" back in 1950-whatever, writers have had plenty more time to make Luthor more than a simple reoccurring "villain of the week". Even when his motivation was just being a turbo-autist who's permanently mad about losing his hair, he still worked perfectly as a criminal waste of infinite human potential, opposite to Superman whom realizes that potential, despite himself not being human at all but in spirit.

The Joker, on the other hand, is literally just "back by popular demand/brand recognition: the character". Don't get me wrong, he has plenty of good stories under his belt (arguably, at the greater expense of other more neglected characters who deserved the exposure), but him being Batman's "arch-enemy" just feels forced as fuck, especially given the broader context Batman functions in- where he's serving in the JLA, fighting the likes of Ra's Al Ghul, and all other manners of bullshit.

If writers were opting for a strictly personal/philosophical/thematic antithesis, then Two-Face would logically be the first candidate to hold the most weight against on Bats. If writers wanted a consistently engaging challenge for the Caped Crusader, similar to Moriarty's function opposite to Holmes, then writers would've kept Gorshin's Riddler as Batman's number one big bad in the comics, and developed their respective hero/villain characterizations from there. Joker serves no fucking purpose being Batman's "#1 villain" than to appeal to normies, who just assume he's as good a character as the cosmetic novelty of his appearance leads on.

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They're both sort of thematically opposite from their pairing and I think that's what makes them so iconic as villain/hero combos. Batman is dark and stoic, yet a virtuous person. Joker is bright and cheerful, but is also evil to the core. And then with Superman and Lex you have the classic brain vs. brawn and greed vs. selflessness.

But the kicker for me is that Joker and Batman is sort of just face value. They're obsessed with each other, they're opposites, they're equally crazy, etc. And the writers just love to play on that.

With Superman and Lex, it's so one sided. Superman would gladly throw the feud away if Lex would clean his shit up. But Lex just hates Superman so damn much, and it's basically just an inferiority complex. The driving force in Batman vs. Lex Luthor is Lex's own ego. And he tries to make up excuses to conceal that fact, and he does such a good job that people in real life reading the comics will agree with him.

Superman/Lex for sure. Probably has more porn too thanks to Smallville.

>>89699053
I don't want to hate on the Joker really, but I never understood why he was seen as significant. I accept that he has stories because the readers like seeing him and creators like using him, but I feel such a disconnect to the concept. He doesn't seem like he should be a threat at all even if you mentally box it as if only the Batfamily exists in a given universe. He is not highly trained and doesn't have tons of money. I just don't get him.

>>89699053
Yeah, in the grand scheme of things Joker is only a big deal because of his history. In any other series he'd be small potatoes while characters that can match Batman, like Riddler or Ra's Al Ghul would be his main villains. And you're right, he does have good stories under his belt, but it does come at the expense of other villains. Besides stuff like Long Halloween and Knightfall, and prominent Ra's al Ghul stories, there's not a lot of big stories for other villains.

What Superman VS Joker stories are there besides Emperor Joker and maybe Injustice?
Are there any Batman VS Luthor stories?

>>89700244
I think he once bought a company Lex was after.

>>89699318
Supes should have kept the long hair, makes him contrast with Lex even more

>>89700284
That's kinda mean spirited in a humorous way. How do we make Superman a greater foil to the bald Lex Luthor? Give him long, flowing locks. Though in some continuities Lex does hate him for making him bald

>>89700244
I actually can't think of much. Whenever they fight each other's villains it's mostly a team up or Justice League thing

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Apart from the fact I'm not sick of Lex due to over-saturation, I'm also a sucker for villains that completely and unequivocally hate the hero

>>89700911
>>89700911
>I'm also a sucker for villains that completely and unequivocally hate the hero
And he's given a compelling motivation for hating Superman as opposed to Joker who fights Batman because it's fun or because he has a boner for him

>>89700911
I like how Lex thought he hated Superman more than any other villain hated their hero...

...but then he met Black Manta in Forever Evil and was like, "Holy shit, this guy!"

>>89701098
I kinda like the idea that meeting Manta caused him to realize how self-defeating his hatred of Superman was becoming, thus leading him to gradually change his obsession from hating Superman, to wanting to be better at being Superman than him come Rebirth

>>89700244
Luthor is featured towards the end of No Man's Land.

>>89701063
>And he's given a compelling motivation for hating Superman

Isn't it just "WAAAA, I'M NOT THE BIGGEST FISH IN THE POND ANY MORE, PEOPLE AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO ME LIKE THEY USED TO WAAAAAA"? Sure, he can dress it up in any manner of "Fuck Yeah Humanity" trappings he wants but all in all he's just a selfish little bitch mad that people aren't giving him his stroking ego fix like they used to.

>>89701340
That does make it compelling as he's blind to his own flaws and considers his intentions noble when they're really selfish

>>89701109
Yeah, the villains Lex teamed up with in Forever Evil all showed him something that was holding him back.

Bizarro showed him that science can cause more problems than it solves. Black Adam showed him that being too alpha can get you in over your head. Captain Cold showed him that being a self-made man doesn't make better than people who got ahead in life by random chance. And Sinestro showed him that believing he is always right about everything all the time makes him more vulnerable, not less.

Forever Evil was all about Lex, through observing these other villains, deconstructing his existing worldview and replacing it with a better one.

>>89697534
This is actually the best idea. Manipulate Lex and Joker into a double fatality, and then nobody needs to feel bad.

>>89701862
Batman manipulated Joe Chill's gang into killing him, so that he could ensure the man who killed his parents died for it without having to break his no-kill rule.

If he's done it once, I don't see why he couldn't do it again.

>>89697534
Aquaman and Black Manta or Flash and Professor Zoom

>>89697534

I really enjoy the current Superman/Lex pairing, where Lex is a non-villain and Superman is on the wrong (earth/timeline/multiverse).

Bat/Joker are good as symbols in the city of gotham. you're either with the bat or with the joker, and if you're with anyone else, you'll have to decide sooner or later

>>89702247
"Joker as a symbol" is about the only meaningful way you can play out any duality in the Bat/Joker pairing, otherwise it makes more sense internally for his archnemesis to be someone entirely different than a relatively insignificant clown.

>>89697534
Nether pairing is the better, both villains suck. Both heroes got better villains.

But since this is a "x or y"
Superman and Luther

>>89702330
>Nether pairing is the better,
>But [...] Superman and Luther

So you don't really understand how "better" works, huh?

>>89697534
>>89702184
It's pretty obviously Tony Stark/Tony Stark.

>>89702385
Guess it was just bad wording on their part

>>89702385
Things can be equal in quality, and you can still have an arbitrary preference based just on your own tastes.

Both pairs are amazing and iconic, but I have to admit that I'd like more Superman/Joker comics.

>>89705202
>I'd like more Superman/Joker comics.
Yeah, they make for an interesting pair

Superman/Luthor is better defined. Luthor pretty much always takes Superman's existence as an affront to his intelligence.

Batman/Joker isn't well defined beyond weird obsession that we have to keep going to sell comics.

I like Supes/Luthor better.

>>89705202
>>89705398
Eh without Kryptonite or Magic itnkinda sucks.
Like even of you have a scheme where Joker makes Superman scour the city for 20000 bombs, when Supes eventually finds Joker it's a bit of an anticlimax

>>89702147
That sounds retarded, i am glad i am not a batfag

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>>89705202
Even though writers always have Mxyzptlk, Prankster and Toyman on stand-by if they ever want to put Superman up against a malicious trickster character, I'd always be down for The Joker getting blown the fuck out by a taking-no-bullshit Superman.