The Clone Saga Storytime Part 2

>>89657493
What was the point of that character? What little i read with him mad no sense and that was early in the clone saga

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>>89657555

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>>89657539
Dont worried about Judas he was pretty dumb.

>>89657493

shit bruh we gotta get Bagley back on Spider-Man

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>>89657647
>shit bruh we gotta get Bagley back on Spider-Man
Hell yeah

>>89657609
He's so dumb, Dan Slott has said he's one of the few elements of Spider-Man's history that he never ever wants to touch.
He's been completely MIA since the 90s, we don't even know if he still has his mutant powers after M-Day.

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>>89657774
>He's so dumb, Dan Slott has said he's one of the few elements of Spider-Man's history that he never ever wants to touch.
>He's been completely MIA since the 90s, we don't even know if he still has his mutant powers after M-Day.
Wait not even Dan Slott wants to used Judas.

>>89657635
Judas Traveller is weird enough, but what's the deal with his entourage?

>>89657806
>http://www.cbr.com/dan-slott-has-a-giant-evil-master-plan-for-amazing-spider-man/

>I brought back Living Brain. I’ve had like Overdrive convert the big wheel. I did stories with Cardiac and Stunner. I will use every single piece of the Spider-Man buffalo. I will use every single thing ’cause it’s this rich character for 50 years and it has all this stuff — okay, Mindworm and Judas Traveller, screw them. I am never using them.

>>89657822
So Judas Traveller is wondering why villains that were defeated by Spider-Man time and time again are obsessed with and hate Spider-Man? Just how dumb is he?

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>>89657848
>, screw them. I am never using them.
Kek

>>89657493
Bravo sir! Let the madness contrive and continue!!!

>>89657886
When you think about it Judas is just a prototype of Morlun

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>>89657917
>Bravo sir! Let the madness contrive and continue!!!
This

>>89657886
To be fair, Spider-Man villains have always been way more obsessive in their hatred of the hero they oppose than other rogue's galleries. How many heroes have had multiple villain teams created for the sole purpose of getting revenge on one person?

>>89657952
How so?

>>89658021
> How many heroes have had multiple villain teams created for the sole purpose of getting revenge on one person?
Batman, Captain America, Iron man, Superman, technically Thor.
Really it's a comic thing to love hate your do gooder.

>>89657989
Even if Peter died, I don't think Ben could easily take over his life. There's no way that MJ wouldn't notice since he has no memories of Peter's marriage to her.

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The Clone Saga maybe Convoluted but AMS 400 was great send off.

>>89657952
Not really, say what you will about Morlun, but his motivations make sense. He wants to kill Spider-Man in order to feed on his totem powers. Judas Traveller is some weirdo that gives High School-level philosophy speeches and does dumb and nonsensical social experiments that prove nothing, and he has no real reason to be so obsessed with Spider-Man in particular.

>>89657848
To be honest, what CAN you do aside from fucking things more? Our current explanation makes his stories irrelevant, making it way better.

>>89658202
I guess he could be the villain in a Spider-Man and X-Men crossover.

>>89658049
At the start of the Clone saga mess both can take the title of "one of their most powerful and dangerous adversaries of Spider-man" both were originally mired in mystery of origins, both believed to be travels from other realms, both were major event antagonists used to move the plot and both have strangely similar and outdated fashion sense.

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>>89658249
I think Judas could been a Doctor Strange Villain instead of spider.

>>89657818
Did they even show up again after this story? Were they also pawns of Scrier?

>>89658249
>outdated fashion sense.
With Traveller it's even weirder. He's supposed to be a famous respected scholar (although given how nonsensical everything he says is, you gotta wonder how he got his doctorate), yet nobody thinks he's weird that he dresses like this and has that weird hairstyle?

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Maybe i run Conway Clone Saga after Ben Reilly epic. AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #139-150; and PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (1976) #25-31, #149, #162-163 & ANNUAL #8

>>89658475
So is this the first time Judas Traveller ever used his powers like this? Is this the first time he ever did one of these dumb experiments? Or did he usually manage to cover it up and make people forget about them with his powers?
What exactly did he do to be so "respected"?

>>89658558
Welcome to one of the many, many plot holes of the clone saga.

Man, Peter Parker is being a huge dick in this story. No wonder so many readers back then prefered Ben.

>>89657539

They wanted to give Spider-Man a big, ancient, all-powerful enemy like the X-Men had with Apocalypse. But he didn't take, so they retconned his powers and everything he did into being illusions and shit.

>>89657893
I'm not really sure if Traveller was a Kavanagh brainchild at all. Kavanagh would have made him be H.O.M.E.R - Hyper Operational Mankind Evaluator Replicant - as opposed to DeMatteis' psychology laden and driven storylines going into evil and why it exists, which really seem to pinpoint Traveller as something he'd either come up with or love working with.

And I don't think Kavanagh ever touched Traveller again after the introduction.

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>>89658598
>Man, Peter Parker is being a huge dick in this story.
It gets worse later .

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Hey look Carnage again

>>89658650
why is Carnage floating?

>>89658623
>Wild Whip
Literally who? How does Ben know him?

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>>89658708
90s

>>89658712
'cuz he was a two-bit villain who just so happened to be stuck in Ravencroft and who only ever fought Ben before being jailed.

No, they never went back to him, either.

>>89658678
Really? That's all it took to beat Carnage? It's usually a lot harder.

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New costume

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>>89658757
>It's usually a lot harder.
True

>>89658751
I actually like the idea of a villain who was arrested and then never managed to escape from prison. Seems more realistic.

>>89658721
>I have gained much greater insight as to why so many criminals are obsessed with you
Really? What exactly did he learn from this experience that would answer that question?
And again, it makes perfect sense for criminals that were defeated by Spider-Man multiple times to be obsessed with him, it's common sense.

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Hi Eddie

>>89658747
>Look! A letter from last week that says that Judas Traveller couldn't come
>This obviously proves that this couldn't possibly have been the real Traveller!
What was even the point of this?

>>89658730
Huh, Spider-Man does note that Carnage was defeated too easily. Are we supposed to assume that Judas manipulated the fight too in order to make it easier for Peter and Ben?

>>89659055
What a coincidence. Also, how did she get up there?

>>89658939

Yes. At this point in the story Judas is still being written as being genuinely all-powerful and omniscient.

>>89659118
>It's hard to believe Spidey never dealt with him
What's that supposed to mean? Spider-Man has fought against Venom several times, he's just too powerful to keep down.

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>>89659284
At first peter was the clone and Ben was real Spider-man

>>89659314
I know that, that's not what I meant. What I meant was why Ben is saying that Peter never "dealt" with Venom when Peter has fought Venom several times.

>>89659364

He'd never actually definitively beaten Venom before, though. At this point, they even had a truce. That's why they have Ben beat Venom as his first act as the Scarlet Spider, to set him apart from Peter.

>>89659480
>He'd never actually definitively beaten Venom before, though.
That just means that Venom is too powerful for Peter, not his fault.

>At this point, they even had a truce.
Wait what?

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>>89659540
>That just means that Venom is too powerful for Peter, not his fault.
Did pat Toxin ever went rogue.

>>89658624
Considering how much thought DeMatteis put into all of the Ben backstory and other elements and how little thought was put into Judas, I'd like to think that someone on staff, if not Kavanagh, shot out Traveller as a quick filler villain to eat space.

>>89659672
That cop is smart

>>89659716
Why exactly did Peter agree to leave Venom alone?

>>89659780
Maximum Carnage happened

>>89659787
That doesn't really answer my question

>>89659540

Back in the early 90s it was a major point of contention that Peter had never properly beaten Venom. He always cheaped him or just escaped him. It where Venom gets a lot of his rep from. Plus, they'd worked together in Maximum Carnage in '92 and once again the following year to save Eddie's ex-wife. Venom had given up on hunting and stalking Spidey, so he just kinda washed his hands of him rather than try and actually take him down and bring him in.

>>89659787
Let's pretend that didn't happen and there was an off-screen truce instead.

>>89659807
>This criminal has decided to stop going after me, for now, therefore I'll let him go and let him do whatever he wants
Uncle Ben would be so proud.

>>89659644

Traveller was a reaction to Apocalypse's popularity in X-Men, an attempt to give Spider-Man a nebulously-powerful enemy. He was intended to be A Big Deal but it never really went anywhere.

>>89659805
https://youtu.be/HrlfSvsrVqo

>>89659805
You don't want that question answered.
Maximum Carnage is up there with Maximum Clonage, man.

Just...just accept that Venom helped take down some bad guys and Peter went "Okay if you stop fucking people up I'mma leave you alone."

>>89659863
It was a hamfisted resolution, ruining the sales pitch, or having to deal with the consequences of your story writing. Marvel never opts for option #3.

>>89659879
I'll never get what people saw in Apocalypse. He always sucked, Age of Apocalypse be damned.

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>>89659711
This

>>89659863

Like I said, real point of contention back in the day.

>>89659540
Not OP but yeah, before the Clone Saga started, Venom proposed a truce to Spider-Man: "don't go after us and we won't go after you". Peter's alleged parents had been kidnapped by Venom, and he more or less agreed to it to be pragmatic. This allowed Venom to fuck off to San Francisco or somewhere else and become an edgy 90's anti-hero for a while.

Ben rightfully called bull on this, effectively establishing him as the more sympathetic Spider-guy (ras he was going to be made into the original Spider-Man at this point) and putting an author's saving throw on a controversial character moment in a single move.

>>89660078
And then Ben was Ben and we're left going "What the fuck, Peter?"

Maybe the domestic abuse was their ace in the hole; an emergency what-the-fuck to cover up the other character inconsistency should they wuss out.

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>>89659748

>>89657609
>Dont worried about Judas he was pretty dumb.

And yet, it's my head cannon that he was the real mastermind of Avengers Arena.

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>>89660369
>>And yet, it's my head cannon that he was the real mastermind of Avengers Arena.
Pretty good Theory.

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Now for some Kaine

>>89660138
>And then Ben was Ben and we're left going "What the fuck, Peter?"
I think the Venom pact worked in a vacuum -the context of the Micheline stories-, as Venom was an unrelenting monster haunting him and his loved ones at every turn. I could accept Peter mostly being too exhausted to risk his "parents"' life in a fight should he refuse, and acting on survival instinct. In addition he's let some other, admittedly minor criminals go free in the past (Black Fox, Prowler).

That being said, I do not believe he would've stuck with that decision, since as said earlier it violates the Uncle Ben rule hard.

>Maybe the domestic abuse was their ace in the hole; an emergency what-the-fuck to cover up the other character inconsistency should they wuss out.
Given the myriad of characterization and story issues in the Saga at the point the MJ slap happened, I doubt anyone cared much about the Venom thing anymore.

>>89661043
>That being said, I do not believe he would've stuck with that decision, since as said earlier it violates the Uncle Ben rule hard.
It wasn't ever made to stick, what with Micheline's original plan for Brock (when they decided it was gonna be Brock and not some lady who lost her child and blamed Spider-Man) was that the Venom symbiote would pass around to a different number of hosts, including Kasady, and Brock'd be killed off eventually.

But Venom was becoming a hot property and his short notice excuse to have Peter not hound Brock (who he wanted to kill) was basically the whole truce.

I "like" how in the end status quo was more or reset with Peter returning to Spider-Man and Eddie more or less saying "I don't even know who you are anymore, but since the previous 'Spider-Man' was giving me shit, fuck you too".

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The end of part 2. Still got time for part 3

http://pastebin.com/D8UM0eNk

>>89661156
Right, I'm not as familiar with Venom's creative timeline. But yeah it was something that was more or less forced to spin Brock off into his own book and have it be relatively independent from Spider-Man.

>I "like" how in the end status quo was more or reset with Peter returning to Spider-Man and Eddie more or less saying "I don't even know who you are anymore, but since the previous 'Spider-Man' was giving me shit, fuck you too".
I was not a fan of the Venom amnesia thing. It neutered them (along with that scene where Spidey defeats him with a lighter) and it felt too much like Norman's soap opera amnesia in the early ASM days.

>>89661253 part 3.

>>89661360
I used "like" under quotes because it's pretty dumb. But it wasn't even an amnesia deal, so much as right after the Clone Saga wrapped up with such a lousy return to status quo salting the earth (Mary Jane and baby May for those going 'you just can't deal Ben wasn't the original' when I always liked him as his own thing and not 'true Spidey'), right when Peter and Brock met again for the first time it's almost as if Eddie said that sentence to justify "Venom and Spider-Man want to kill each other again".

>>89658114
>Even if Peter died, I don't think Ben could easily take over his life. There's no way that MJ wouldn't notice since he has no memories of Peter's marriage to her.
Agreed

>>89661360
>I'm not as familiar with Venom's creative timeline.
His creative timeline is about ten stories being written at the same time and shat out all over the place, leading to a massive goddamn clusterfuck.

Don't even bother to wonder, when it comes to Eddie Venom you're better off with your headcanon.

>>89662913
>Don't even bother to wonder, when it comes to Eddie Venom you're better off with your headcanon.
Agreed with this.

>>89660745
Bump

>>89664240
thank you.

http://pastebin.com/4N3pmZPh

..

>https://youtu.be/8l3Bo1MK9_Q ...

>>89658114
That was a What If? just so you know.

>>89657493

>>89675889
Good

>>89657539
>Judas Traveller
Darn....Now I can't think anything but that the Inheritors were nothing but bad copycats.