So, this is going to be a thing. How does /co/ feel about it?

>>89454222
:)

i thought all the watchmen died except the blue one who is in space somewhere

>>89454257
Actually, all of them survived except for Inkblot Man.

Why are they looking at the back of the button?

I have mixed feelings.

On the one hand, this is basically a meta-story about how Watchmen ruined cape comics for decades, which is a very well deserved criticism.

On the other hand, every time DC does something like this, it gives Alan Moore another opportunity to rant about them using his old ideas because they don't have any of their own.

>>89454222
I'm not sure why they're involving Watchmen to begin with. If Dr. Manhattan is the villain, that would mean they're asking us to ignore his character arc in the original story.

File: laughing krpytonian.png (513KB, 431x424px) Image search: [Google]

513KB, 431x424px

>>89454375
Alan Moore?
Needing a reason to talk shit about the comics industry?

>>89454222
Who's Dr Oz though

File: Watchmex_cogs.jpg (46KB, 447x600px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 447x600px

it's probably gonna be dumb and stupid but i'm really enjoying both Batman and Flash books right now so...

>>89454286
Comedian died too

>>89454549
ozymandias?

>>89454375
>which is a very well deserved criticism.

I disagree. How was Moore and Gibbons supposed to know that it would influence people for the wrong reasons?

>>89454222
I will look down and whisper no

>>89454222
Ever since the Rebirth issue I've been in a very "wait and see" mood with the Manhattan plot. What it laid down was compelling enough for me to not immediately kneejerk and hate it like I would anything else continuing Watchmen not done by Moore and Gibbons. But I need to see how the story's handled, and I don't have too much hope in it being done very well.

Anyways, even if it's not good it's only two issues in each book, so easily ignored.

File: Bl9nStTCIAAfpD4.jpg (50KB, 599x489px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 599x489px

>>89454222
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-YfuVQmX8

>>89454796
Yeah, I never got why people think the source of the influence needs to be blamed for anything.

>>89454222
Anyone who reads comics is fine with it.

And no I don't mean casually. Anyone familiar with DC knows anything published under DC exist in the Bleed. The Watchmen Universe has always existed in the DC Universe. It is simply an elseworld.

>>89454222
The final nail in the coffin of the formerly greatest universe in comics.

>>89454796
>How was Doctor Frankenstein supposed to know his monster would go on a rampage and turn the village into an angry mob?

I don't really care whether it's fair to blame them or not. It happened. The story deserves to be called out for what it did. For what, in many ways, it is still doing.

>>89454375
Let him rant. He's pretty much irrelevant now anyway

Great, another interruption to King's Batman run which is already all over the place as it is.

>>89455067
Then who's king now?

>inb4 marlel

>>89454796
You cant blame the story or the guys making it for how people recieved and decided to take from it, the good thing about it is that it was great for its time and it still is now, if comic book publishers and fans are idiots and cannot understand that its not their fault.

>>89455538
Just read Detective Comics, it's way better

>>89455700
>Tynion's Detective
>better
This trigger me.

File: giphy[1].gif (259KB, 250x235px) Image search: [Google]

259KB, 250x235px

>>89454222
The only thing that could make it better would be involving Predators and Aliens too!

>>89454222
I feel like they waited too damn long after the movie to try cashing in on it.

Not that many care about Watchmen anymore.

>>89456218
Not everything done in comics is an attempt to cash in on movies

File: 1464773639761.png (278KB, 512x384px)

278KB, 512x384px

fuck off retard

I kind of want a plot that when Batman was sent back in time by Darkseid, it wasn't just in the timelinr we saw, but also in the real world continuity. And ever since, Batman has become darker, grittier, and more depressin, and because of his growing popularity, it has started to weigh heavy on the DC Universe. People have started to turn on Superman because he isn't as "cool" as Batman, and when Superman is changed to reflect that, he is rejected by everyone. Darkseid's plan is to kill hope, and he's succeeding. Wally West's and preNu52 Supermanms return is a wrench in that plan.

>>89455508
more relevant than the new comics

>>89456279
surreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

>>89454222

I have faith in Johns and only hope that Morrison is consulting him, which I'm pretty sure he's doing. Like the idea forms in Johns' head and Morrison opens a portal from the 4th dimension and says with a smile "let's begin, shall we?"

>>89456279
Yea that must be why X-Men are second string, FF are cancelled, Iron Man is in every book, Inhumans are in front as the single most shilled name in the industry, Carol is everywhere, Cyborg is on the JLA, Zod looks an awful lot like Michael Shannon, while before he looked strangely like Terrance Stamp,

But yea no, comics totally aren't driven by movies....if you're retarded and never leave your house and have no idea what a movie is.

>>89454222
The ugliest of ugly cash grabs.

The story was finished, DC. It was complete. It was probably the most complete story I've ever read. Any addition to it could only damage its structural integrity, just as Before Watchmen inevitably did.

Just let it stand on its own, for god's sake.

>>89455324
>rock and roll made me go on a school shooting

>>89456799
this will require drooling autists to refuse to buy it on principle

>>89454257
>i thought all the watchmen died except the blue one who is in space somewhere
casual. they were minutemen, not watchmen.

fuck

>>89454222
Bruce/Barry? OTP

>>89454222
I hate Johns so much, pretending Barry is a good detective is bullshit. I really hate how mandated this crap sounds.


Also the idiots thinking this is meta are insane, Johns can't intodeeper meta than Superboy prime. He is pretty blatant when he tries to blame others for his own Fuck ups.

>>89456799
No one is stopping you from doing that autist. I've never read Before Watchmen and never will. If you don't like this don't read it. Ignore it and any other continuation of Watchmen that Moore does not approve.

>>89456920
It's pretty meta retard. The message isn't
>Watchmen is bad
It's
>Just writing grim dark bullshit because that's all you got out of Watchmen is bad

Manhattan isn't the villain he's the antagonist.

>>89456414
Johns and Morrison haven't been close to each other in over ten years, there's no bad blood between them but they are clearly rivals, Johns vision of dc backed by the suits became DC while Morrison multiverse tu backed by Didio became outside Canon that only his close collaborators care about. Do you think Morrison will be happy than a year after he introduced his version of the watchmen universe Johns puts Manhattan in a book?.

It's a DC property, given their history with stuff like Captain Marvel and the actual real Charlton Characters, how could anyone have viewed this as anything but inevitable?
I mean fucking, really?

>>89456967
It's bad meta when it comes from Johns, especially when dark stuff in comics isn't a bad thing, cheap shock is. Johns isn't that smart and new52 wasn't darker than the older universe

>>89454375
What did it do??

>>89457010
I would had liked a real watchmen sequel, by a top tier writer, but this isnt done by a good team, it's a cheap buck gimmick that started with the killing of a new God.

I'm a captain atom fan, one of the 5 in the entire board, and what pisses me the most is how this crap will most definitely be as bad as Darkseid war and captain will be put on the freezer for another decade after rise and fall

I think it's a fun and cool crossover that was bound to happen. Its not like it invalidates the OG Watchman.

It could be cool, but it won't be. If Dr. Manhattan was the only character from Watchmen to be in the story, and if he acted as an unseen force instead of a character for most of it, like Sauron in LOTR, then that could be pretty neat, but there's no way that's gonna happen.

>>89454222
Don't see Batman and Flash together enough.

>>89456462
You do realize this has been going on since the 40s? The reason Superman can fly is because of the Fleischer cartoons.

>>89454375
>how Watchmen ruined cape comics for decades

you misspelled "elevated"

>>89454222

I keep on expecting them to take a bite out of those smiley faces.

>>89457208
I'm pretty sure that was the anon who was arguing that /tv/ influences comics

>>89454796

Watchmen basically took simple heroes of the golden age and revitalised them by making them realistic, also known as edgier around here. And since then most comicbook authors of the big 2 want to leave their own mark on x character by making them grittier and more grounded. Only till now has this idea died down, but it was the bread and butter of the 90s to the new millennium.

Whether he wanted it or not, Moore created the trend.

File: johns 3.png (355KB, 522x314px) Image search: [Google]

355KB, 522x314px

>>89457360
We totally didn't had that in the 70s. Edgy crap wasn't product of Moore or watchmen, it was part of the radical and attitude times, extreme crap. Watchmen and mature comics always existed, even in Cape comics, watchmen gave us sandman and Morrison s animal man, it didn't gave us Superboy prime.

That's why the whole meta crap doesn't make sense. This is nothing more than a selling gimmick, any reference to the damage that Moore did is like marvel Comics aboutevil white males. It's superficial and bullshit

>>89457360
I thought everything Moore and Morrison wrote was fucking loved i the 80's for being """REAL""" because it had dirty unshaven heroes shoot the villains all the time and then be all brooding assholes about it. So then all comics had to follow that format.

Shit like Dark Knight Returns helped this a lot.

>>89454222
Kind of annoyed that the actual plot is moving ahead in Batman and The Flash instead of Titans.

File: ToddSpidey1-407x630.jpg (146KB, 407x630px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 407x630px

>>89457360
I call bullshit

>>89457520
He is wrong , pic related

>>89457492
This.
Image comics started the edgy extreme trend.
Watchmen started the "comics are more than entertainment for kids" and "we could deconstruct these characters because they are cultural icons" trend. And most of the best capeshit stories have been created after Watchmen and influenced by it.

>>89457010
Watchmen is a good enough story that if you wanted to build off of it you should actually commit to something great instead of a hackneyed Geoff fucking Johns event.

Go the Sandman -> Lucifer route if you really want to build off of it. Don't just bastardize shit from it, fill in the cracks of the mythos and branch out.

Before Watchmen was them just throwing shit at a wall with every Watchmen character and, gasp, it was garbage. This is going to be more of the same.

>>89457492
>watchmen gave us sandman and Morrison s animal man, it didn't gave us Superboy prime.

Johns BTFO

>>89457635
Before Watchmen was mostly harmless cashgrab. This is harmful and idiotic cashgrab.

>>89457492
How did Watchmen give us Sandman?

>>89457520
They were more complex, but that's it. Take serious house for example, watchmen gained mass appeal and justified the hobby for adults, but it was something that was already there. But people like Johns, Lee, Scott, bendis, were not really influenced by it, Millar? Sure, but just read jla by Morrison or busiek avengers and you can clearly see that in the mid 90, watchmen was that big of an influence outside vertigo. Take a look at the x-men, and tell me, do you think Fucking Moore had anything to do with onslaught or the clone saga in Spiderman?

Lee and Todd had a bigger impact on the crap we got.

>>89457664
Harmless? it was utter dreck that spoiled every character it touched. You have to necessarily pretend it doesn't exist for it not to make Watchmen actively worse.

This is going to probably be less bad because it's going to happen after Watchmen and just be distilled garbage instead of an honest continuation of the universe.

>>89457360
Technically, the heroes of Watchmen were based on Silver Age heroes.
Moore did use Golden Age characters in Terra Obscura and Tom Strong.

>>89454304
They're showing us the button, dumbass.

>>89457611
What's funny is that Moore had to salvage some Image characters like Supreme.

>>89457737
Why are they showing me the button? I don't even exist in the same universe as them.

>>89457683
That's the kind of comics it influenced, not Flashpoint or cry for justice.

Edgy stuff did gave us some good stuff, like Bueno, Lobo, the Maxx or the original run of spawn, but it did hurt the industry in the long run. Watchmen was the result of Miller's daredevil, miracleman, the brits magazines, Heavy metal,swamp thing and even squadron supreme. It was the mainstream approval (and that means mainstream money) of adult comics, that gave us sandman, why? well it told DC and marvel that they could make real money with it, and sandman went to outsell SUPERMAN.


That's why the meta theory is either bullshit or johns intentionally ignoring/changing history to excuse his past mistakes

>>89457006

Johns didn't want New 52 and got rid of it when he could. The only two comics that were uninterrupted by New 52 was GL by Johns and Batman Inc. by Morrison.

Nowadays Morrison is doing creator owned stuff and self contained DC stories.

>>89456462
Almost all of that is Marvel, who are a fucking joke now. And Cyborg was in the JLA in comics for a few years before the movie appearance. I hate it, but that's how it's been since after Flashpoint.

>>89454796
It's not ranting at them, it's ranting at the industry's (specifically DC's) reaction to their success.

>>89455061
Seriously this. Fuck off with your fake outrage you stupid casuals. It's pathetic.

>>89457755
Yeah, and morrison worked on Spawn, The extreme trend died quickly outside marvel anbd had to be pushed by new talent like millar or big names like moore or morrison.

Cinematic comics replaced Extreme comics, civil war didnt drink from watchmen, but from the authority

>>89457858
Johns maybe didn't want the New 52 but it was still largely under his direction. The dude is part of the nebulous "editorial" that gets the blame for the decisions.

>>89457928
No one can hate on New 52. It gave us Lemire's Animal Man and it was god tier.

>>89457808
You never show stuff to people in other universes? Weirdo.

File: cockroach.gif (37KB, 210x209px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 210x209px

>>89457928
>johns didn't want new 52 and it crashes and burns after convergence and dcyou
>johns jumpstarts things with rebirth and everything is going great

Just as planned. Also, not to add to the meme but it seemed more like a Didio thing than Johns. There was that whole thing with Batwoman and her marriage getting called off.

>>89457951
Sure and the previous universe gave us 52 which was god tier. 4 or 5 good comics (Animal Man, Demon Knights, Dial H, Morrison's AC, and maybe Swamp Thing if you can wrap in Soule's better continuation into Snyder's) out of fucking 52 is not a good rate.

Did the Pre-New 52 universe have a better than 10% not garbage rate?

>>89457951
Wasn't half the reason that Animal Man was great was it didn't really suffer from the whole New 52 thing anyhow?

>>89457858
>>89458048

>Nowadays Morrison is doing creator owned stuff and self contained DC stories.

Sure, and Heavy Metal, but he was ready to leave DC years ago he only stay for DiDio, as for johns he was architect of new52, he didnt want it? Probably, but he was happy to be the hired work to do the job. He also got a promotion, he was part of new52 even if you want to deny it.

Johns has been doing the work of tyhe executives. Do you really believe The introduction of the watchmen characters is to make the story better? Or that pretty much every event he has done since sinestro corps includes ALTERNATIVE suits made thinking on DLC and toys?

I hate doing my job too and complain, but if i was against i could quit, he is a big name writer that wanted to make the suits happy. Stop pretending he has artistic integrity, he doesnt, and there's nothing wrong with that, by the time the DCUE is done he will be a millionare.

To put it is simple words: the CCO that got a movie for CYBORG isnt some simple writer, A guy that can hold hostage Captain Marvel from Waid and Morrison isnt a simple writer, he could had said fuck it, but no, he and lee created new52 and that part of history wont change. People do stuff they are not fans of in their jobs all the time.

>>89458048
It's not like any Rebirth comics are particularly great. I mean it's all pretty mediocre running right now. At least the New 52 had a few good experimental/niche comics at the outset. Sales are trending back down to normal rates.

I mean, what's the best Rebirth comic right now? Superdad? Which are fine, don't get me wrong, but I can't name a single great comic DC is publishing right now under the Rebirth tag (fuck their best comic is fucking Flinstones of all things, completely unrelated to Rebirth and could've been done at any point).

>>89458156
You just have terrible taste.

>>89457716
It's harmless in the fact you can completely ignore it. I've never read them - Watchmen is still the perfect graphic novel.

File: WATCHMEN_2012_MM_Cvr.jpg (571KB, 1500x2306px) Image search: [Google]

571KB, 1500x2306px

>>89458394
No, he doesnt, he wants more quality, he is asking for great comics and good comicsa, not DECENT and a few good ones, the one with shit taste are you.

>>89458437
It's not harmless, before watchmen was harmless, this isnt the same, this is Johns the consultant, president, CCO and main writer of DC using a great comic as a cheap gimmick, the event will be shit, Johns proved he can't handle the new gods or high concepts with Darkseid War, Moore wasnt against a Watchmen sequel or prequel (the prequel was mostly bad), but now the chances of a REAL sequel in the hands of a writer like ennis or morrison are gone. The chances of doing something interesting with Earth 4 are gone, Watchmen isnt a sacred cow, its premium steak, and Johns just took it out of the freeze, microwave it, put ketchup and mayo on it and shove it in your ass, then he said it was a burger and ask you for $3,99

>>89454222
DC has come a long way since an old drunk made edgy versions of Charleston characters to pay off his gambling debts. Who knows what adventures they'll have between not and the time the editors run out of ideas?

>>89458595
>fake outrage!

It's a DC property they can do what they want with it

>>89458695
And i wanted a good comic and a good writer, not johns moneygrab

>>89456291
See
>>89458695


You are either a DCshill or a Johnsfag

Why some of you still pretend that N52 was a big failure and a mistake? DC was really a mess before the reboot and N52 was needed and pretty much saved them.

>>89458856
If DC's so great, where are their critically acclaimed, billion-dollar-grossing movies?

No, that one doesn't count.
That other one doesn't count either.

>>89458082

Yup. Animal Man was going to be released anyway. It was a spin-off of Brightest Day.

Jeff Lemire had to change a few things once the reboot became known.

>>89458885
What?

>>89458856

Because Nu52 made the universe and its characters worse than what came before.

Here's another thing people ignore about the Nu52 success: it had a lot more to do with first day digital, jump in points and TV ads than the books quality.

>>89458952
>Because Nu52 made the universe and its characters worse than what came befor
Which characters they made worse? Because if anything, N52 actually saved some characters from being completely destroyed.

>>89458394
Name a single great Rebirth series. There isn't a stand out run amongst the whole lot.

>>89458437
Fine, sure, by that logic you can just not read any of this shit either.

>>89458738
>>89458791
How much money have you stupid faggots actually spent on Watchmen? This comic that you care so much about? Let me guess you have a torrented digital copy?

Cause I have a physical copy sitting on my shelf right now and it doesn't bother me one bit. Shut up you autistic fucks.

>>89459000

Tons. Pretty much all the b, c listers.

>>89454222

>Last time we saw the badge the bloodstain had washed off in the rain
>Its back now because lol thats the iconic symbol

fuck this shallow cashgrab

>>89458952
>Here's another thing people ignore about the Nu52 success: it had a lot more to do with first day digital, jump in points and TV ads than the books quality
Way to downplay n52 success to suit your argument, anon.

DC universe and characters were in awful state pre-flashpoint and repoot was a smart decision. Though, there's no denying that they made a lot mistake with n52 that could have been avoided.

>>89459000
Anything to do with anyone but Batman and GL were worse. Teen Titans was obviously worse, Flash was horrendously damaged and is still in the fucking process of recovering, Superman likewise, all the Wildstorm stuff was awful. JSA/Earth 2 is obviously a mess (even if Robinson's first shot was fine, it was still mediocre). An entire generation of heroes basically didn't exist aside from, what, Nightwing and Roy Harper?

Blah blah blah, you can just go down a list of New 52 titles and pretty much all of them that didn't get to keep their Pre-New 52 history to some degree (Animal Man!) were massively worse off for it.

New 52 was a good marketing campaign paired with a horribly, terrible executed reboot that they're literally apologizing for.

>>89459074
Like who? Give me examples of the "tons" of characters who were great pre-n52 and got destroyed after the reboot.

>>89459043
I've spent no money on the Mona Lisa and I'd be annoyed if, next to it in the Louvre, they put a photocopy of it with someone's shit and piss smeared into it who then claimed this was the honest follow up that everyone wanted.

>>89459132
>Teen Titans
They were already in bad state pre-n52 and there wasn't much can be done for them.

>Nightwing and Roy Harper
Are you kidding? Nightwing was almost got killed because he was redundant and Roy was a mess since his daughter was killed.

>>89459147
Mr. Terrific. Captain Atom. Voodoo. Midnighter and Apollo. Martian Manhunter. Cyborg. Ted Kord. Plastic Man. Hawkman. The entirety of the LOSH (which, until the New 52, had been in print since its debut). All the fucking Teen Titans who basically ever existed besides Nightwing. Cassandra Cain. Stephanie Brown.

Fuck I'll toss out someone who used to be an A-lister and was the most fucked over of anyone: Wally fucking West. DC fucking removed him from existence and then turned him into a goddamn black hoodlum.

>>89459188
Wait a second are you DT?

I get the feeling you're about to defend RHATO in a second.

>>89459200

> (which, until the New 52, had been in print since its debut)

hey those comics ran for like a year

>>89459215
>name some reddit user or whatever
Freak off. You aren't even worth discussing anything with.

>>89459245
Ok DT, nice cover

>>89459156
Exactly what I thought. Shut your fucking mouth with your fake fucking outrage.

Go spend money on it if you want to complain how it's honor is being tarnished.

>>89459241
but the New 52 was great! everything before it was bad and it fixed everythin

>>89459200
>Mr. Terrific. Captain Atom. Voodoo. Midnighter and Apollo. Martian Manhunter. Cyborg. Ted Kord. Plastic Man. Hawkman. The entirety of the LOSH (which, until the New 52, had been in print since its debut). All the fucking Teen Titans who basically ever existed besides Nightwing. Cassandra Cain
Literally all the characters you mentioned were not doing well before the reboot.

It's amazing how people forget that 2006-2011 was a freaking awful period for DC.

>>89454796
It's not blaming the creators it's blaming the editors and company runners

>>89459188
Fair about Roy but they also, you know, took EVERYTHING away from him in the New 52. No longer part of Green Arrow or the Teen Titans. They shoved him with fucking Jason Todd in one of the shittiest books DC's been continually churning out for years.

He was obviously in a sorry state before the New 52, but there was a bunch of shit about the character that still mattered. He then became a character in a sorry state in a shitty niche book without anything important to his character intact. He was just Jason's frat bro.

>>89459296

the only actual good book they were publishing before the nu52 was Lemire's Superboy.

but shitty relaunch saved with great marketing is not a bad description of nu52

>>89459296
They didn't do well after the reboot because the reboot was garbage with no direction and terrible oversight and editing. So they went from doing poorly but still having all their good stories to build off of canon to hot garbage with none of the important stuff about them relevant anymore.

You can go from bad to worse, that's what the New 52 did with the majority of characters. The people who escaped it were either incredibly mediocre on both sides (your Barry Allens and Supergirls) or, go figure, got to keep shit from before the reboot (Batman, GL, Animal Man).

What should've happened is everyone should've gotten the Batman/GL treatment. Cut out a lot of shit, do a big renumber, do some year one retcon shit. But what they did was make a clean slate and then shit on said clean slate.

>>89459296
Nothing was doing well before the Reboot. That's not the point. You said the reboot "saved" them. It didn't save shit.

And fuck you if you think literally getting deleted and ignored is better than poor sales in a declining market.

>>89459296

LoSH and Teen Titans were doing well.

JT Krull's on Teen Titans was like... superb in comparison to what Nu52 did with the team. Specially Jeff Lemire's Superboy and Fabian Nicieza's Red Robin.

Even Johns and Morrison's run on Green Lantern and Batman Inc suffered because of the reboot.

Fuck, Dick Grayson suffered greatly because of the reboot. We wen't from Snyder's Tec run, Morrison's Batman Inc, Tomasi's Batman and Robin to the mediocre Nightwing run.

>>89459296
Mr. Terrific lost all his JSA ties. Captain Atom became a fucking loner. All the Wildstorm dudes got split up and any strengths the universe had were tossed out the window.

Fuck, half of the people I listed there just DIDN'T EXIST in the New 52. How the fuck are you going to tell me the New 52 saved them? Please fucking tell me how the New 52 was better for Plastic Man or Cassandra Cain or Wally West you dense fuck.

>>89459343

There were several good books that were cancelled to make way for Flashpoint.

Cornell's run on Action Comics that centered on Lex Luthor is a good example. Sure, we had a mediocre Doomsday cross-over following it, but even that cross-over was better than Nu52's Doomed cross-over.

>>89459343
>>89459397
We had Secret Six, the best Bat-Universe ever with something like seven of the best Batman-related books ever made, Superman/Batman, Power Girl, and the list does go on. This is if you're not even mentioning the richest history and cast of characters in comics, some of which were approaching quadruple digits in numbering, being jettisoned for a cash grab

My guess is the blood will lead them to an Edward Blake who was a superhero back in the 70s, and is now retired. Blake will have no clue how his blood wound up on that button, and show them his old costume with the blood not on his version of the pin.

That or Blake will just be some jerk old man.

>>89459542
But superheroes didn't exist before the Justice League, anon. That was the dawn of superheroes

>>89459200
>Cyborg
Lost his history, which hurt, but based on the level of confusion people expressed upon seeing him as the main hero in Flashpoint and a JL founder, not exactly in a great place with fans.
>Ted Kord
Dead. Super fucking dead. With a legacy that consisted of tired Booster storylines and Jaime being bounced around as cameos.
>Captain Atom
Generation Lost was a fuck. I'd rather have one solid, largely self-contained series than more "Hey guys, remember the JLI?" bullshit.

I'll give you the most of the rest. J'onn being in some weird anti-hero limbo for at least a year still irritates me, even after he got a limited series and palled around with Courtney. Plastic Man was reduced to a simple shock page for Forever Evil in an origin that no one will ever use. Seriously, what the fuck was that.

>>89459494

i forgot about cornell's action comics but iirc there was no indication of it going anywhere after the Luthor story(which to be fair we probably intentional bc reboot)

>>89459495

i disagree with those except i don't remember batbooks beyond Morrison and Steph Batgirl (RIP) both were great

>>89459343
>>89459366
>>89459397
>>89459425
Do you even idiots read my posts before you respond to me?

This was my post:
>N52 actually saved SOME characters from being completely destroyed
If N52 didn't happen, SOME of the characters you mentioned would have been completly destroyed beyond repair because DC was heading to nowhere before the reboot.

This was also my post:
>Though, there's no denying that they made a lot mistake with n52 that could have been avoided
The editorial staff did a lot of mistakes, but it's not right to say N52 was a failure and I definitely would take it over the period before pre-52.

>>89459699
Literally every single classic book of the New 52 did not need the reboot to have occured, save maybe Action Comics.

>>89459587
You're missing the fucking point. The New 52 got rid of all of the great Ted Kord stuff. JLI was never a thing in this universe and, when they did reboot, they didn't even BOTHER TO LET TED EXIST. That's the fucking point.

It's not just that Ted was dead directly before the Reboot. The point of the reboot is getting rid of everything and getting rid of everything spoils a lot of fucking characters.

What's Ted Kord to you without all his JLI hijinks with Booster and everything that came from it? Because there was no fucking difference in Dead Ted Kord and New 52 Ted Kord -- neither existed. But one at least had some great history.

The only positive shit I've seen for Cyborg is from the niche black focused community in comics, who supported him anyhow because it's not like him being black was a new occurrence.

Cornell's Action Comics
Spencer's Supergirl
Levitz's Legion of Super-Heroes
Levitz's Adventure Comics
Rotating's Superman/Batman

Krul's Teen Titans
Nicieza's Red Robin
Lemire's Superboy

Winick's Power Girl (> Jurgens' Worlds Finest)
Sturges' JSA All-Stars
Grey & Palmiotti's Freedom Fighters

Winick's Justice League:Generation Lost (> Jurgens' Justice League International)
Giffen & DeMatteis' Booster Gold

Bedard's REBELS
Simone's Secret Six
Giffen's Doom Patrol
Grey & Palmiotti's Jonah Hex (> Grey & Palmiotti's All-Star Western)

There are way more titles, like Xombi, but my memory isn't that great.

>>89459699
Name one character the New 52 saved from being "destroyed." Like I said, the only good shit to come from the New 52 got to keep a lot of its Pre-52 buildup.

You're just wrong. New 52 was technically a market success. If that's the only thing you care about then great. But don't fucking pretend it helped any character when DC is literally sitting here going "please, here, have old Superman and Wally West back like you had Bruce and Hal. We're sorry."

You're some dude who started reading comics with the New 52 and liked it. That's fine. But don't get all uppity and defend its horrible transgressions to people who actually saw both sides.

>>89459805
Morrison's Batman Inc.
Miller's Batgirl
Dini's Streets of Gotham
Rotating's Batman and Robin

>>89459805

Zatanna's book was great.

I'd rather have Milligan's shitty Hellblazer run, Sturges' House of Mystery and Dini's Zatanna books than the shitty Justice League Dark book.

>>89459949

Hine's Azrael, Snyder's Tec, Dini's Gotham City Sirens.

>>89459949
>Rotating's Batman and Robin

what?
It was Tomasi's book, and it continued into new52. only change was Bruce back over Dick

>>89459805
>>89459949
>>89459989

are we just listing all the books that ended prior to new52?

or "runs cut short"?

Johns' pre-Nu52 Greeb Lantern > Johns Nu52 Green Lantern
Tomasi's pre-Nu52 Green Lantern Corps > Tomasi's Nu52 Green Lantern Corps
Tomasi's Green Lantern: Emerald Warriors > Bedard's Green Lantern: New Guardians

>>89460009
It was Morrison's book, Tomasi did one story after he left, as well as Cornell and Winick.

>>89460033
We're listing the amount of great books that existed directly before the supposedly superior reboot that gave us maybe five or six of that quality while killing the entire history of the DCU.

>>89460033

Runs that were good. At least better than what followed after the reboot.

For example, Daniel's run on Batman with Dickbats was better than his run on Tec with Bruce.
Even Finch's run on Batman: The Dark Knight which had Bruce teaming up with Etrigan was better than his Dark Knight's run after the reboot that had Bruce fighting Venom Two-Face.

It's like most writers just were not putting an effort. Even the shitty ones.

>>89459805

Legion was also basically unaffected by the reboot

File: tmp_6166-1474313246088199525737.png (36KB, 121x145px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 121x145px

>>89457951
And for every Animal man there were 3 other terrible runs. Nu52 effectively fucked over everyone that wasn't an a-lister, and even those were plagued with terrible writing. Rebirth happened for a reason, anon.

>>89460091
The Bat-Universe had gotten the biggest shot in the arm in its history, and it showed. Even mediocre writers were elevated by the richness and novelty of the new characters and storylines.

>>89460132

the batbooks got a great editor(Doyle) and suddenly all the books became good-great

>>89460101
There has literally been a Legion book since it's inception until after the reboot, but nice try.

>>89460101

Nah, they fucked the Legion of Super-Heroes because of Flashpoint.

The characters in LoSH couldn't go back in the past anymore because Flashpoint fucked with time-travel and the characters in Legion Lost were stuck in the past for the same reason. Then Legion Lost was forced into Lobdell's shitty cross-over event called "The Culling" and everything went to shit.

Levitz also seemed tied in the LoSH book. He started killing characters left and right.

>>89460091

Finch didn't write the new52 Bat book.

>>89460101
They literally quashed any time travel shenanigans with Legion. Which is like half of Legion's stories, historically. Remember Barry's timeline fuckery making it so they were stuck in time?

That's an editorial mandate of a story enforced by the new status quo of the New 52. And a couple of years later Legion's dead.

>>89460170

Levitz was strong-armed into writing generic stories because of what Morrison was doing in his Superman reboot. Both Levitz and Perez were in a state of sitting around and being to do this and that because not even the editors knew how the canon would be thanks to Morrison's reboot.

>>89460166
>>89460170

the storyline was unaffected dummies. there was just the Time Wall plot which went the same way as so many other early nu52 plots

>>89460201

David Finch wrote and drew the shitty Batman: The Dark Knight ongoing. Both the short-lived pre-Nu52 one and the much longer Nu52 one.

>>89460245

It was affected, though. Levitz was constantly being stopped by editors. There's an interview about it.

>>89460245
So it's just a coincidence then?

>>89460246

paul jenkins, joe harris, judd winick and greg hurwitz all co-wrote the second volume.

>>89460245
Why are you lying?

Is LOSH, the series that died with the New 52, the hill you want to die on?

I'm still waiting for that one magical series or character who was saved by the New 52.

>>89460319

That doesn't mean that Finch didn't write it as well.

>>89460336

I would say the closest would be Green Arrow (for Lemire's run alone, and now Percy's)

Damien is much better post- than pre- (even if he was dead for a good deal of it)

Aquaman and Wonder Woman both benefitted from the reboot (Aquaman more so)

>>89454375
>Watchmen ruined cape comics for decades, which is a very well deserved criticism.
No it's not. Criticising idiots for making everything grimdark in response to Watchmen is fine, but criticising Watchmen itself based on people's reactions is stupid.

>>89460403
The Batfamily isn't part of the conversation. Damian didn't get rebooted like all the other sidekicks because he's a Batman character. The fact that Batman got to avoid the reboot doesn't mean the reboot was good for Batman.

Wonder Woman definitely didn't benefit (even if you like Azz it's not as good as the Perez or Rucka stuff from before Flashpoint). Aquaman is debateable. Mediocre to mediocre.

Green Arrow got better but my point wasn't really "were there some books that weren't bad?" My point was someone, I believe you, said the New 52 saved some characters. Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Green Arrow weren't about to be cancelled and disappear before the New 52, were they?

>>89460440
Everything and everyone that has ever been influential has gotten blame and credit for those who tried to follow in their footsteps.

The fact that the comics industry is mostly full of idiots kind of skews Watchmen's influence but still. It deserves some credit/blame for the change in tone as people tried to emulate what was successful and lauded. Same reason artists credit the all time greats as inspiration.

Or, if you want to stay topical, the way people followed from Carmine Infantino's art in comics.

>>89460403

Wonder Woman was going to be released as it was written despite the reboot.

Wonder Woman
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Aquaman
Batwoman

They were all in production before the reboot became a thing.

Wonder Woman was going to spin-off from JMS's run where his version of Wonder Woman had managed to revert her past again.

Animal Man, Swamp Thing and Aquaman were going to spin-off from Brightest Day.

Batwoman was going to spin-off from her 0 issue.

>>89454222
As long as it turns out good there is nothing to complain about.

>>89454375
>Watchmen ruined cape comics for decades
I thought editors ruined cape comics for being greedy and lazy. The best meta commentary would be caricatures of Didio and Geoff Johns ruining the DC universe because it's cool

>>89457360
Pessimistic not realistic. There's a difference.
Moore had to make Nixon president for life to make winning vietnam seem bad for the US, for fucks sake.
There's nothing realistic about Dr.Manhatten.

>>89460641
It wont

>>89461125
So, Multiversity?

>>89456462
Only Marlel does this. Fuck off.

File: New New 52 Small.png (2MB, 971x998px)

2MB, 971x998px

>>89457951
I like the New 52 for what it did for the DC universe's fantasy side, and it's a shame Rebirth hasn't been willing to do the same.

>>89454818
Underrated post

>>89457603
>The Legend of the Arachknight

Christ.

File: XS5LK.gif?noredirect.gif (883KB, 500x269px) Image search: [Google]

883KB, 500x269px

>>89458665
>DC has come a long way since an old drunk made edgy versions of Charleston characters to pay off his gambling debts. Who knows what adventures they'll have between not and the time the editors run out of ideas?

>>89457006
Morrison fucked over Johns first.

Geoff had his plans for Ted Kord and Vic Sage fucked over by Morrison demanding exclusive usage of them in Multiversity/Pax America being the only version of Ted and Vic allowed to exist with Morrison being the only one allowed to touch them.

So John using the Watchmen is perfect revenge.....

>>89463878
>Morrison fucked over Johns first.

Captain Marvel you pleb

>>89463230

>His webline...advantageous!

>>89454222
Superdad is back, I have already won.

>>89463878
>Geoff had his plans for Ted Kord and Vic Sage

Hahahahahahahaha

Sure after plastic man, the metal men or cold's big plan?

Or after his plans for Dex-Starr and Kryto or the plans for wally