Fantastic Four

Is he right?
Is this how comics can be saved?
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/realtime_objections.html
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-howto.html

>>89453786
>>89454009
Totally worth a read.

>>89453786
It's an interesting read and sounds cool as it's own alternate Earth, but I can't believe anyone would think the collective narrative every Marvel book has been carrying is about people who have been hypnotized by alien shapeshifters and granted super powers by drinking said shapeshifters milk (since they can change into cows).

If you're going to read it, don't go into it expecting authorial intent to be highly regarded.

>>89453786
>some cape comic
>The Great American Novel
Autism it is.

>>89455120
It's great. You don't have to buy EVERYTHING he says but the stuff about continuity and character analysis is gold to me. I love to see how he explains the team trough the ages. I'm currently reading every issue and seeing what he has to say about them. He's a genius.

>>89456276
>the stuff about continuity and character analysis is gold to me.

100% agreed.

>>89454854
I think the Skrull Milk theory is supposed to be a joke

>>89457426
I don't think anything on there is meant to be a joke.

His other websites are more fascinating

>>89461943
what other websites?

>>89453786
The author tried to justify Steve Englehart's saga as groundbreaking character building for Ben Grimm, when it mostly amounted to Steve taking Mark Gruenwald's Ms Marvel (Sharon Ventura) and permanently changing her into a female Thing to act as a one-dimensional love interest. I don't look on this interpretation of FF kindly at all.

He IS autistic. He's not ashamed of it. I don't see how that's an issue tho.

>>89462035
That you don't like what they did to Sharon doesn't mean that the character building for Ben isn't there.

>>89461998
I can't find it right now but he had other sites but the way to find them is now a dead link (he's working on a game so he's busy)
Basically he had a site that explained how the Biblical God was actually the embodiment of logic and another site that had his solution to world peace through Ground Rent.
http://heylookthatsme.com/mysites/index.html
That's the dead link
He also had a site back then where he denounced Mormonism entirely (there wasn't a direct link but one could have still found it on Google)

>>89460004
I give it like a 50-50 chance

>>89462149
Actually I just found it on Wayback machine

https://web.archive.org/web/20160506084138/http://heylookthatsme.com/mysites/index.html

http://answersanswers.com/God/Bible1-God.html
http://answersanswers.com/

>>89453786
I'm still going through it. I actually enjoyed his interpretation of Captain Victory, too.

>This whole fucking page
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/lockjaw.html
>>89460004
>>89462176
>All the other web sites are just for fun. But this one is serious. Short version: tax land, not work.
http://www.zak-site.com/chris/

>>89455120
His justification's pretty solid desu.
gimme a sec

>>89462060
Like... legitimately? By his own admission?

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48KB, 340x384px

>>89462149
>Basically he had a site that explained how the Biblical God was actually the embodiment of logic and another site that had his solution to world peace through Ground Rent.
And people say comics are bad for the mind...

>>89462699
Yes, by his own admission. Autistic people do exist.
Also, he believes Reed is autistic as well.

>>89462514
Funnily enough I stumbled across the Lockjaw page years ago in isolation and have used the trivia I got there repeatedly since. Guess it never occurred to me to check out the rest of the site at the time.

>>89462775
Not saying it's a problem whatsoever. It's just hard to tell if someone's being serious about it on 4chan of all places.
Does he go into depth on it somewhere on the site or is it one of those other ones about God & peace.

>>89462035
>A young Spider-man is sales suicide

>Supporters of forever-young superheroes openly admit that this requires readers to stop reading after five years or so. Just as they did in 1950s DC. As John Byrne put it:

>"Keeping them truly timeless -- which means no life-altering events -- is exactly what kept characters like Superman and Batman appealing to a steadily shifting audience for decades.

>"Steadily shifting" is the key phrase. The problem lies not in the timeless characters, but in the readers who stick around long enough to NOTICE that the characters are timeless. The first time you think to yourself Hey! I'm five years older than when I started reading, why isn't Captain Fonebone? is exactly the time you should be thinking about finding another hobby."

>Stan Lee's genius, in the real-time 1960s, was to realize that readers do not need to leave every five years. Stories can move forwards, keeping old fans, and new fans join to see what the fuss is about. The new fans then catch up with the old comics. Repeat sales! This is how it worked in Britain in the 1970s, where we almost never saw a new comic, just reprints. That British generation inspired some of the greatest new artists and writers: Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, and all the rest.

>But Spider-man's sales declined as he got older?When Spider-Man's aged rapidly (in the 1960s), sales went up.

>When his rate of aging slowed, sales went down.

>When his age was reversed (e.g. the 1990s, or Brand New Day) sales still went down.

>When meaningful change is promised (a birth, marriage, death, or "Spidey will never be the same") sales go up.

Honestly this is more believable than what Marvel believes (where it was something like "if Peter's life is good, sales go down")

>>89463025
>The heroes are timeless?

>For legendary characters, time is important.

>Read the legends of Heracles or Odysseus or Thor, the archetypal heroes. They grow, they change, they get old and they die. The gods will die at Ragnarok. Odysseus died at the hands of Telegonus, his son with Circe. Heracles dies from the hydra's blood on Nessa's tunic. Also, the Greek legends are tied to specific dates and places (in particular the sacking of Troy in 1184 BC).

>Selfish motives?

>It is selfish to deny readers a choice. New readers should be offered BOTH Marvel Time and real time.

>Merchandising.

>merchandising requires an unchanging brand, but it still allows the Ultimate universe, the Zombie universe, the 2099 universe, the 1602 universe, the various "last X story" and "the end" stories, etc., etc.

>Destroying the status quo

>The status quo of successful comics is realism and the unexpected.

>"TV series (etc.) succeed by giving only the illusion of change"

>Soap opera characters age. Other shows only last a few years at most.

>“I don’t want realism, I want escapism.”

>The most successful escapist fiction has a strong connection with the real world. That makes the escapist parts even more exciting.

>>89463515
>“The fans want nostalgia”

>Most fans grew bored with comics long ago and left. The only ones left are those who don't like change.

>"Timeless superheroes outsell other kinds of comics."

>No, manga outsells superheroes, and superheroes have been in terminal decline for thirty years, despite huge brand recognition and high profile movies.

>"Apart from manga, superheroes outsell real time stuff."

>Real Time superheroes sold even better. But I agree that there will always be a market for timeless hero comics. We need both kinds.

>Real Time creates problems?

>"The characters would become unrecognizable"

>As we saw in the 1998 Fantastic Four annual, or "Fantastic Four: The End", the characters do not become unrecognizable, even after many decades.

>"The real time stories would be too serious"

>The opposite is true: compare the 1960s Real Time comics with their present versions.

>"We cannot generate good new characters at this rate"

>Comics have no trouble generating great new characters when they inject real time.

>"A real time universe would still repeat stories"

>All media repeat story ideas, but individual characters develop. That's a big difference.

>It would create a mess of continuity?

>Nobody ever gets confused by real time. Do you get the real 1960s confused with the real 1990s?

>"Real time can be too constricting"

>The opposite is true: Marvel Time prevents any stories that involve real change. Real Time has no such restrictions.

>"Real time forces one month per month"

>Not true. Real time simply means events can be dated, but the stories can be told at any pace. See Sherlock Holmes for example.

>>89463025
>>89463515
And people complain that Marvel "isn't recognizable" anymore. They want everything to remain the same. Things change, you have to read the comics to keep up.

Comics should have a beginning, a middle, and an end. You *can* substitute "Handing-Off-To-The_Next-Generation" for "End", with new stories following children/apprentice characters, bt an end for the original character (death, retirement, marriage, whatever) should happen.

File: HIJK Marvel.jpg (288KB, 1715x686px) Image search: [Google]

288KB, 1715x686px

>>89463846
I think 50% of the problem is them forcing change in a way that doesn't make sense for characters. Like Riri could've worked if it didn't come off like Bendis was trying to replicate his success with Miles.

And this one poster on Something Awful has a point about how new books stack up with old books.

>>89464117
>Like Riri could've worked if it didn't come off like Bendis
No, that's a lie, that book was doomed from the start because BENDIS was writing it. The guy is the worst writer Marvel has. But he doesn't write everything. There are a lot of great things in Marvel, but people don't care to read them. See: Nova, Moon Girl, Hulk, She-Hulk, Ghost Rider...
Also that post may be on point with some books (thor, iron man, avengers) but that's it. Not everyone has lost storytelling. He's a casual, that's why he doesn't give any names.

>>89462149
>(he's working on a game so he's busy)

I wonder what that game is

>>89455120
>>89462669
'ere we go:
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/Great-American-Novel.html
>Most comics are rubbish? The Fantastic Four, 1-321, is not "most comics."
>Comics are rejected by critics? So was Gone With The Wind (rejected by 38 publishers), M*A*S*H* (17 times), Dubliners (22 times), etc. >It uses simple language? So does the Bible, in most translations. So did Ernest Hemingway, and he was criticized for it as well: "Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?"
>Comics are low culture? Everything said against comics can be said against Shakespeare
>These themes are not obvious? This is a sign of depth and subtlety.
>Comics appear very lightweight on the surface? So did Mark Twain.
>Comics are made to a deadline, paid by the page? Charles Dickens used the same method, sometimes adapting his story mid way in response to readers.
>Comics are morality tales that stretch credibility? So were the ancient Greek myths.
>Comics have costumed heroes who hit people? You have just described the Iliad, the archetype of the national epic. Though the Fantastic Four do not wear comic-type costumes.
>Comics have multiple authors? So have the Greek myths. Shakespeare collaborated on some plays. Leonardo Da Vinci had a team of artists to fill in the details. This is normal for any massive epic.
>The Fantastic Four (according to this page) emerged without its authors knowing its big picture? The same applies to the individual books of the Bible. And to every real human life.
>6000 pages is excessive? It's the same length as Proust's greatest novel (assuming that 1 page of dense text = 2 pages of comic).
>Why superpowers? The powers, like the family relationships, are simply McGuffins to allow different stories: Whatever story you want, whatever the topic, whatever characters, whatever location or time period or relationships, the FF can tell the story.

>>89454854
Wait what?
Page link?

>>89462035
That's like the one part I've read and I don't remember "groundbreaking" ever coming into it. He just says Englehart was the last writer to give a shit about continuity & treat it all as the same story.
I storytimed that Beyonder issue lately, some of the trivia from anons in the thread contextualizes what this guy's saying A LOT.

>>89464000
This is why I don't get why some people expect, let alone WANT, Marvel Studios to "recast" the characters once the actors' contracts are up.
Fuck that shit. You've got enough characters to cycle to new ones. Shit you've got enough Iron/Cap/Thor expies to keep those specific brands going.

>>89466546
>I storytimed that Beyonder issue lately, some of the trivia from anons in the thread contextualizes what this guy's saying A LOT.

What happened in the thread? I missed it.

>>89466478
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_milk.html
http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_negative_zone.html

>>89467067
THIS plz