What makes a good antagonist and villain?

They need to be threatening and likeable (likeable to an extent, we still need to root for the protags)

>>89427545
Only does things in there own self-interest

>>89427545
Showmanship.

>>89427545
>likeable (likeable to an extent, we still need to root for the protags)
This. Even if you have the evillest bastard on Earth you need to have SOMETHING for the audience to latch onto and create a connection with the villain. Maybe they're likeable because their plan actually makes sense, or because they are just so over the top in how they act, or because they have a tragic backstory. Whatever the case, the audience needs something to care about, and that means developing the villain as a character.

A villain that exists solely as the final boss to the protagonist is not a character, it is a plot device. That's not always a bad thing, mind you, some stories do call for such villains and indeed would be odd with overly fleshed out bad guys. It is the responsibility of the writer to gauge the importance of the villain's character to the story and develop them accordingly, because a rich story with a flat villain can be a death sentence.

their motivations need to be justifiable while still putting them at odds with the protagonist. everything else is determined by the moral grayscale the writer employs.

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I don't care if he's overused on /co/ but I thought nox was almost a perfect villain.

He was still intimidating, but we understand his motivation. That and in his madness he truly believed his plan would work, not realizing that he would still be an insane time mage that his wife would hardly recognize had it worked.

I love ATLA but ozai was never a good villain, but they sort of made up for it by making Azula cunning and so easy to root against

>>89427571
This, and good writing.

>>89427545
Depends on what story they're in.

Essentially they have to be compelling, threatening and have strong motivation. That's it.

You can have a villain wherein their motivation isn't some hyper-sympathetic morally grey quest and still be excellent. You could have a villain who's aim is to literally blow up the world and still be absolutely fantastic as an antagonist.

>>89427854
This.

Fuck, I'm sure most of you guys have seen Alien. The villain there is literally a fucking animal, but it has enough intelligence, an interesting and scary enough design and a frightening enough presence that it becomes compelling.

Thematically connected to the hero and arguably not a villain at all.

Their beef with the protagonist has to be personal. Doesnt have to be from the start always, but it has to in the end.

>>89427765
this
>>89427620
and this

>>89427545
Evil.

If you can convince the audience that they villain is evil and make them want to see the villain die then you've succeeded in writing an effective villain.

>>89427545

There is no one thing that makes an antagonist good.

>the more sympathetic a villian is, the better

When did this meme start?

In the first episode, the audience should want them dead. In the last episode, the audience should get their wish.

Make the audience FEEL dammit

They must have an interesting dynamic with the hero. Whether they are a dark reflection of them, if they share some particular traits, if they are completely opposite to each other...
The interaction is also vital. For example, while I liked the villains in LoK just fine and I thought they were good villains for the most part, their rivalry with Korra felt kinda insignificant. Even more between Ozai and Aang.
However, Jack and Aku do share that interesting and deep connection. Another example of this I enjoy is Dib and Zim.
Something that makes you want to see them sharing a scene.

Most of these tips are for when a dynamic between the villain and the protagonist is needed.
But what about those stories where the villain is the protagonist?

>>89427545

antagony and villainy

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>>89427545
I think Aku and The Lich are a good comparison. Showing that a Villain is only ever as good as the Protagonist and Writing allows.

Both are godly beings of pure evil and destruction used in different ways. Both have been shown to be so devastating that they both wiped out the dinosaurs and are all around pretty god like beings.

I understand that both Samurai Jack and Adventure Time set out to do different things but this will always be the thing which sticks out to me.

The Lich was always built up to be this grand evil of the show, that when he shows up thats when all the fun and games are over which admittedly is effective. His design is rather warped and demented while his goal is simple but effective, mass genocide of every living being. However due to the show being 10 minutes long and because Finn as a character has never really been challenged to accept outside of the status quo which isnt god awful relationship, this leads to the writers always finding some convenience to stop him rather than Finn himself. The Lich is never allowed to be more than the situation can handle and if so there will always be something to stop him

Meanwhile. Aku from the start presents himself with having a goal and a motive. He was built up to be a powerful force before then having the main character built up also. Aku was never "The most powerful entity ever" but that didnt mean he wasn't any less threatening. Even as Jack and Aku developed. Jack becoming slowly more unfazed by the future and Aku mellowing out from his compliance with complete domination lets the writers have some fun with both of them.

TL;DR: compare the one joke they did with the lich having tea with pb with all the jokes they did with Aku. Regardless of all the goofy stuff they had Aku do, he still is one of the most intimidating characters in the show.

A good villain is the hero of his own story.

>>89429025
>Regardless of all the goofy stuff they had Aku do, he still is one of the most intimidating characters in the show.
It should also be noted that the goofy stuff Aku did helped amplify his threatening appearances. I mean, you could have a string of episodes where Aku is a goofy oddball who spends his time fucking with Jack, then have it all come crashing down in episodes like "Jack and the Zombies", wherein Aku is allowed to flex his muscles and remind the viewer that for all the silly things he does Aku is still a fucking nightmare monster that should NEVER be taken lightly.

>>89427545
I think a good villain must balance a bunch of aspects:

>Be entertaining
>Memorable
>Geniunely threatening
>Thematically fitting
>Have a good motivation
>Have some sort of complexity: Wether it is personality, background, modus operandi, etc.

I think that the best of villains have at least 4 of the mentioned characteristics.

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1) Obligate psycopath/sociopath

2) No tragic backstory bullshit

>>89432529
Honestly, I prefer absolute evil bad guys to tragical villains, most of the time.

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>>89428002
I disagree.

>>89428002
That really depends, tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlhOUyy4wbs

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>>89427545
>Good Writing
>Good Design
Everything else is just subjective taste.
Also, posting second favorite villain.

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Post great villains

>>89432873
>see thumbnail
>hear the background snare loops in my head immediately, don't even need to enlarge the image
Every time.

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>>89432963
DARKSEID IS MY WILL
DARKSEID IS MY GOD
HE IS THE DEATH OF THE SUN
HE IS JOY AND EXTINCTION
DARKSEID IS

>>89432873
Define "good writing" and "good design".

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>>89432963

>>89432873
Writing and design are both subjective.

You are so stupid.

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>>89427545

>>89433127
Wanted to post that

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>>89432963
Not far away, a Crooked Man is smiling a crooked smile...
His name is Mad Jim Jaspers, and his mind is a dark amusement park alive with nighmares. Everyone has forgotten about Mad Jim Jaspers: the extradimensional agent called Saturnyne, she has forgotten. Captain Britain, the superhuman from an alternate world, he has forgotten. And that was a mistake of terrible consequence.
He lets them savour their triumph a moment longer, and then his mind opens like a floodgate... the insanity within sluicing outwards... it ripples outwards across the nation, a tidal wave of writhing lunacy. It engulfs everything - and everything it engulfs... becomes crooked...

>>89427545

-His motives are reasonable
-he isn't a jerk to everyone (it irks me when the big bad isn't friends with his henchman and lower ranks. Criminals have social lives too. They just do bad things outside of work)
-Threatening. Improvises when a plan doesn't work. Doesn't let a highschool student constantly defeat him and his ex-marine soldiers.

>>89429025
The first time they featured the Lich was great, they let Finn effectively beat the shit out of him without a piece of random bullcrap coming in to actually take him out

every other time they made him so big that there was no reasonable way for Finn to satisfyingly take Lich out himself so there always had to be a bullshit thing to stop him at the last minute

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>>89432963
He is one of us

>>89433102
I think elements of the two are subjective, but the general idea of the two is more generally objective. For example, I dislike Charles Dickens writing and enjoy Edgar Allan Poe over him, but I recognize that it's still good writing.

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>>89427854
A good example

>>89427545
A good antagonist should be a counterpoint to the hero or group of heroes. He should in some form be the antithesis of what the hero embodies and allow the hero to explore their own principles in the process of thwarting them.

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>>89427545
They have to be scary.

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>>89427545
>antagonist
someone that challenges the hero, even winning multiple times
>villain
memorable, frightening, imposing, and yet endearing

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He needs to be interesting and his reasoning has to be understandable even if not agreeable.
Pic related is a great example.

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Being a likable Bastard.

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>>89427545
A good villain has just as many victories as failures. If they lose too much, they stop being seen a a threat, but if they win too much it prevents any real progress for the hero other than "things just got worse again" and hurts the over all story.

Good villains also take the audience by surprise with the things they do. It can be something unforgivable or even something kind for the sympathetic villains.

Finally, a great villain to be at odds with the hero and any time they are together or spend talking about the other must express just how much they want to win. Both of them need to know how to get under each others skin and use that at the perfect times.

>>89427545
Good writing.

>>89427545

>What makes a good antagonist and villain?

Self awareness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7N67hn0TlA

>>89429025
The Litch could have been a good villain, but he just didn't have any real chemistry with Finn. They only fought a handful of times and those fights weren't anywahre near as long as they needed to be. Whenever he shows up it's a big deal, but his stories always hit the climax too soon. The first time he showed up was perfect, but everything between the end of the first fight to them stopping possessed Bubblegum felt like it was filler and much less of a big deal. When he took over Billy he felt like one of the best villains of all time, but that feeling quickly faded with the episodes that came after that.

>>89428329
When pseudo-intellectuals became writers and people gobble that shit up.

>>89433155
>His motives are reasonable
Suck dick. No real psychopath has "reasonable" motives.

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>>89432963
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOsHoqhbUIU

This while a quiet thread, was a good thread.

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>>89433127
This is what it all comes down to. Your villain can be as multifaceted or as two-dimensional as you want, as sterotypical or as special snowflake as you can stomach, but it all comes down to presentation.

Consider this fella from The Crow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_NS0vAYGVk

He's really just an ordinary crime boss, nothing really special about him, he's a sadistic scum bag that enjoys terrorizing other people and has a fetish for fancy swords and his Asian sister, so what makes him such a good villain?

He's got style, he's got charisma, he's a sexy man voice, and he delivers his thuggish dialogue in a way that is both amusing and terrifying. He sells being some kind of psychopathic mastermind with a smile on his face.

In a different production, he could've just been the surly, foul-mouthed shit-head that the hero kills at the very end, but instead he completely upstages the hero and owns the last half of the film because he's that damn charismatic.

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>>89435167
>Your villain can be as multifaceted or as two-dimensional as you want
I find that simple concepts executed well are the best. Think about Hans Gruber from Die Hard. His whole character equates to "Ex-terrorist trying to make a buck," and his plan is so good and his personality so much fun that he's one of the best villains ever. It's the same with Dennis Hopper in Speed, or Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege. They're pissed off ex-Government/Law Enforcement types who got backstabbed and want revenge/terrorismbux, and both are God-tier villains. Hell, the Phillip Seymour Hoffman character in Mission Impossible: III has no backstory at all, and he's one of the most realistic, menacing sociopaths I've ever seen in a movie.

Even a poorly-executed simple villain, if just a cardboard cutout of a character, isn't ever all that offensive. It's when you get into the really convoluted, faux-sympathetic villains, like prequels-Anakin or Kylo Ren, that you get some really lame characters.

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>>89432963

>>89427545
>Marvel no longer has villains in their comics
>literally comes to 4chan for ideas

I think it's time to give up.

When they have a little of each other on themselves.

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>>89432963

>>89427545
The three basics I'd say are
>A motivation
>Taking action to fulfil their goals
>Thematic relevance (probably the most important)

A good villain or antagonist is essentially a secondary protagonist whose goals or actions come into conflict with the protagonists own.

If you can flip the narrative around and tell an engaging story from the villain/antagonists pov without changing the events and details, then you've got a good villain/antagonist.

>>89436406
>When they have a little of each other on themselves.

You've got to be careful with this though. Legend of Korra had the opposition and Korra share similarities but it all turned out to be shit in the end.

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>>89436628
>Legend of Korra had the opposition and Korra share similarities but it all turned out to be shit in the end.
Amon and Zaheer were still good villains

>>89436716
Zaheer yes
Amon was awful though. I still don't get the hype...

>>89427545
The best villains don't exist.

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>>89432963
Probably the strongest character in the entire galaxy, only being hold back by his own stupidity and pride, and that's what i love about him.

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>>89432963

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>>89432963

>>89428329
teenagers who are used to black and white children's stories shit their pants at the first villain who's not pure evil

>>89427545
ambition, charisma, and a good song

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>>89437140

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>>89432963
Something about a villain whose big plan is to undo them ever becoming evil in the first place is so good.

>>89427545
Intelligent, nihilistic, and with a wicked sense of humor

>>89436383
OWWWWW OWWWWWW OWWWW

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>>89432963
>>89436864
Peepers one of them for me.

A ruthless, intelligent, ambitious, badass with a napoleon complex whose way more evil than his boss but is still cares deeply for said boss and is voluntarily subservient.

WoY may have avoided the lore and backstories but it was pretty good at creating dynamic characters.

A certain level of swagger and self confidence/belief in their own actions

Charisma is the most important stat for a villain

>>89427854
>You can have a villain wherein their motivation isn't some hyper-sympathetic morally grey quest and still be excellent.
And in addition, you can have a villain that in theory has an almost justifiable motivation, and still have them come across as completely flat and lacking in compelling characterization if they're portrayed wrong, as MCU movies have shown repeatedly.

>>89437244
A-Am I the villain of my own life?

>>89436495
Is the guy in the center Mysterio or somebody else?

>>89429025
>>89433157
>>89433977
I don't know what's wrong with you guys but the Lich is the perfect example of a good villain: Powerful, scary and above all else not being used as a tool of comedy. When The Lich is involved, you know it's serious and that is the kind of influence a villain should have on the mood of a show.

You don't need a sympathetic backstory or a list of one-liners to be a good villain and if you think so, you're Joss Whedon.

>>89438825
The Lich is a good villain but he had the potential to be an amazing villain, it feels like the writes dont know what to do with him.

>>89427687
>>89436870
>>89437227

Is that show worth watching? From what I heard this character doesnt show up much?

>>89438825
>the Lich is the perfect example of a good villain
That's not how you spell The Beast
>Extremely intimidating despite the fact he never lifts a finger in the show, it could even be argued that he is completely incapable of harming anyone directly

>>89438825
Yeah, the Lich is a good villain, but he could be better if the narrative favored him. Some of the times he has been defeated were anticlimatic.
He's also an example of how a good villain can depend entirely on the presentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrlymHW0qU8

>>89438675
It Doc Scratch. An omniscient southern gentleman with pedophilic undertones who acts as the representative of a billiards themed time gangster. Scratch is the 'cueball' of the gang.

>>89427545
Make them smug and competent. Everyone loves those ones.

>>89427545
When they have goals that you can almost side with

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>>89438924
it's pretty good. nox pops in and out a lot, but the protags are entertaining enough to keep you hooked.
i came for nox, and stayed for percy.

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>>89432963
The Muuusic Meister, sings the song the world wants to hearrr~ Lets hope the Flash crossover doesn't end up bringing teaaars.

>>89436716
Amon had a lot of potential to be good but they shit the bed at the end when his story about being attacked was BS.

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>>89432963

>>89427545
>Exceptionally good at attacking the hero’s greatest weakness
>Create situations that nullify the heroes greatest strength
>Pressuring the hero into difficult choices
>Competing for the same goal as the hero

>>89427545

Two things.

Make them memorable and make the audience feel something about them.

>>89427765
>Depends on what story they're in.
>>89427854
>Essentially they have to be compelling, threatening and have strong motivation. That's it.
These

Anything else is just too specific

>>89438960
He also has a perfect place in the plot and represents Wirt's major character flaws (fear/anxiety/lack of will) to the point where overcoming the villain is equivalent to the character development. I feel like the conflict with him is meaningful instead of just another obstacle the protagonists have to face

>>89439676
Also, Samuel Ramey's voice. Presentation.

>>89432873

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bQPxeL7GgM

>>89427545
A good villain needs his own story and motivation
If he is really good he could aswell have been the protagonist if the camera was focused on him instead

>>89432873
>>89439999
I love that Courage's ultimate enemy, out of everyone, was a cat named Katz. It was just perfect.

>>89439999
Nice Quads. Also, it's not obligatory but having a good villain theme helps a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxzMCZwA6CE

>>89427545
Entertaining, Compelling, but if you don't want them to eat dirt by the end of the story then they're not much of a villain.

>>89440101

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF7vFFTnc98

>>89440163
most of this is a cover of a more popular song and I feel stupid for not knowing its name

>>89440101

>Villain has a catchy theme for his scenes.
>Villain does something really brutal and dangerous
>His theme plays with but heavier instruments.

Every time.

Just something that is entertaining

>>89439332
Villain with great theme song >>>>> any other villain

>>89440299
Indeed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo29q9SFsPo

>>89440163
uogways's smack talk to him was pure fire

>>89438893
This, we really could have used an episode where Billy told Finn the story of how he encountered the Lich the the first time before he finally showed up. Something like that would have really built up the Lich's reputation as a villain and made the Billy/Lich have a much stronger emotional impact.

In the end, the Lich is a good villain who is held back because of the nature of the show he is in. It's kind of like the villain for season 1 of The Awesomes, he was a GOAT character but held back thanks to the rest of the show being garbage.

Being menacing and terrifying, in my opinion.
Without the menace factor the sympathetic villains turn into complete pussies and pure evil villains become just boring assholes.

>>89427930
I prefer Michael Myers to xenomorph, but I guess the same applies too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Blq11wjG30

>>89436716
Zaheer was the best written character in the show, maybe even including the original series. Him and JK Simmons were far and away the best parts of Korra

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>>89437705
>MCU
>get an actor who played one of the scariest television villains in the last couple of years
>make him play a villain in your movie
>the villain ends up being forgettable
I'm still mad about Kaecillus.

>>89436809
pre-reveal amon was cool

>>89427545

They're the protagonist of their own story

>>89427545

Great FLAMING EYEBROWS

>>89441426

Kaecillius was better than the average MCU villain because he at least had understandable motivations. The problem, of course, is that he was forgettable.

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>>89429025
>>89439081
I think I almost prefer the Lich in presentation, but I prefer Aku in overall execution.

The Lich always makes great appearances, and comes across as genuinely intimidating every time he speaks, but like people say, the short episodes hold him back, and he's never a threat for very long. Using him sparingly is fine, but I wish he had a longer story arc.

Aku appeared more, but he kind of veered back and forth, threatening in some episodes, but stupid and cowardly in others. But even if he's played for laughs he still works as a long-term villain, because Jack's already lost. It doesn't matter that Jack can beat Aku one-on-one, because his quest to save the past on top of that feels like more of a Greek Tragedy than anything that Jack can physically overcome.

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Does Zim count?

>>89442291
Aku definitely had the advantage of being the main focus of the show. The Lich exists as a guy who makes things serious every time they need to end a season, and sadly because of that he can't exist outside of those very specific circumstances.
Aku's status quo is being invincible while Lich's is almost the opposite.

Both are cool as shit though, real interesting takes on personifications of evil.

>>89427687

Well Azula was never the villain, she was more of a rival.

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>>89442343
Wish that they had brought Tak back a few times.

>>89442387
Rivals are just dicks that sometimes get in pissing contests with the MC.

Villains actively try to stop the MC from achieving his goals. Azula was definitely a villain.

>>89432529
>>89432637
>2) No tragic backstory bullshit
Just because you've only seen it done poorly, doesn't mean its always bad,.

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>>89432963

>>89442497
>Just because you've only seen it done poorly, doesn't mean its always bad,.
This.

In fact one of the greatest weaknesses of Honor Harrington, one of my favorite sci-fi novel series is the villains. Almost every one of them suck fucking hard. Especially her personal enemies, they are the first truly no dimensional characters I've ever read.

>>89427545
being a foil to the main character properly sets a good villain to be an arch nemesis and an anti thesis

>>89442469
>Villains actively try to stop the MC from achieving his goals. Azula was definitely a villain.

Azula never really tried doing that. She was just doing her father's bidding because she was told to.

>>89442886
By that logic Darth Vader isn't a villain since he is just doing what Sheev told him to.

>>89442886
avatar really wasn't all about the villains
the villains were more plot devices to add a sense of urgency, especially Ozai
the show was always more about world building and the struggles the characters had internally

>>89442918
Star Wars was suppose to only be a single movie and Darth Vader wasn't suppose to be Luke's father

>>89442945
He still answered to the Emperor and to Tarkin in the first movie.

Just because Azula answers to someone else, it doesn't mean that she isn't a villain.

>>89442918
>By that logic Darth Vader isn't a villain since he is just doing what Sheev told him to.

Darth Vader embraced the dark side. Azula only put up a facade to be loved by her fathere.

>>89442923

And Azula's struggles was the worst.

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>>89442387
Azula smiled as her brother got his face burnt off, abused everyone who worked under her totalitarian regime, and pretty blatantly threatened the life of one of her best friends when she hesitated in joining her mission.

Tragic or not, she had more development as a villain than the main villain.

>>89443018

It was all a lie. The crying girl you saw at the end was the real Azula.

>>89427545
>Good antagonist
A well written that doesn't feel like "just another bad guy" and one that can rival the protagonist, if not surpass him/her (see: The Elite (Action Comics #775)
>Good villain
A villain that is correct. (See: Kafka, FF3/6)

>>89443007
>>89443037
Fuck off Scrapper and stop ruining this great thread with your retarded waifufaggotry.

Nobody answer to the delusional azulafag

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>>89427545

Ambition to be above the rabble.

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>>89432963

But only until the finale then he was shit.

>>89443061
>A villain that is correct. (See: Kafka, FF3/6)
>Good villain

He's a good villain but not because he is correct. He's becomes a force to be defeated.

>>89443196
And this is another great lesson: don't make your villain so OP that you have to give him a lobotomy just so the hero can plausibly win in the end. That shit is the worst because it ruins both characters.

>>89443196
He was always shit though.

>>89443071

I'm not Scrapper, I'm just correcting the anons here on their assumption that Azula is a villain.

>>89442387
>she was more of a rival.

You're a retard

>>89428329

>an effective writing tool is a meme

when did "everything I don't like is a meme" become a meme

>>89427687
Is it true he's coming back in the new season or not? I hears he was coming back from a friend but haven't watched since the first season.

>>89442945

So? Just switch the Emperor to Tarkin if you're going to be such a bitch about this

>>89443277
This. Only write OP villains if you have the mental capacity to come up with a means of defeating them that doesn't involve asspulls or dumbing them down.

>>89443219
I might be thinking of someone else

A good villain is one that makes you dislike him.

Half of this thread are retards but at least is not /v/ levels of stupidity thinking having demons and angels but switching the name of one for the other is good writhing.

>>89443061
If he is correct what is the point of stopping him?

>>89443484
If he is correct, there is no stopping point. Only the protagonist's selfish goals

>>89443496
Then the protagonist is the villain then.

>>89443466
You're a fucking retard.
The biggest fucking retard ITT.

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>>89432963
Obligatory

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>>89432963
Technically a villain.

>>89443496
>Villain (noun)
>1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
>2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
You can't be good and be a villain at the same time idiot, you are mixing villain and antagonist. Antagonist stops the protagonist but it doesn't have to be evil to do so, a villain is literally someone evil.

>>89436495
>Doc Scratch
>Great
He was your typical omniscient 4th wall breaking untouchable bad guy. He wasn't even a good villain.

1. Look cool as fuck

2. Be intimidating

3. look cool as fuck

>>89443832
>Look cool as fuck
Anton Chigurh looks like a faggot (I love him as a villain but let's be honest here) and he's still great.

>>89443590
>Idiot
That wasn't necessary, anon.

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What's /co/'s opinions on tryhard villains or villain that gradually become tryhards?

owlman from earth 2 or whatever

it doesn't even matter....

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So, just to showcase a contrast, sometimes you can have a villain who is so completely over the top, cartoonish and nonsensical, with no visible redeeming qualities what-so-ever, and still have them be a delight to watch on screen, given the right presentation.

Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBc7yQXrP9c

Anybody that says RJ's Bison was a deep, complex villain would be full of shit, anybody that said RJ's Bison was a bad, forgettable villain would also be full of shit.

Much like Frank Langella as Skeletor, he puts everything he has into this role and gives it such nuance, such authority, you can't help but love it. Shame about the rest of the film.

>>89445722
Speaking of which, Clarence Boddicker was fucking fantastic. It's too bad we can't have villains like that in action movies anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdZqKVcI9m8

Just a grade-A scumbag and the worst example of what humanity can offer, yet so damn entertaining you can't really hate him.

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Such a weak humanbeing,
but in a position of great power.

such a good combo.

>>89442343
Zim is one of my favorite cartoons villains, and his rivalry with Dib is one of the best ones I've ever seen in any media. They're both underdogs, which is rare to see when the usual balance is keeping either the hero or the villain above the other. They're both pariahs to their respective societies and at times it seems that only they care for what they are fighting even though they're battling in the name of the people that makes and mocks them. I honestly would have loved to see an episode in which Zim realizes he was kicked to Earth just to be rid off, AND have Dib watching the scene unravel. I'd love to see his reaction to discovering that his greatest foe is no only as pathetic as him among his peers.

I really like Ludo.
He keeps getting defeated and stripped of everything.
And each time he comes back more desperate and daring than before.
Honestly I think Ludo is going to kill Toffee.

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>>89445988

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>>89427571
PRESENTATION

>>89427545
Those are two different questions

>antagonist
There is really no rule here, it depends entirely on the specific work.

>villain
They have to be fundamentally opposite from the hero in some specific thematic way. Whatever makes the hero, well, the hero of the story, the thematic centerpiece of the story, the villain does not have. Whatever difficult choice the hero makes, the villain took the other path. The heroe's weakness is the villain's weakness.

Luke Skywalker is the hero because he avoided the temptation of the darkside, and the paranoia and rigidity of the Jedi Order. He faced certain defeat and failure with love, compassion, and peace. Anakin is the villain because he gave into paranoia, he cut himself off from others, he fell to the darkside out of temptation, betraying the people he loved, and the people who loved him, because that was what he felt he had to do.

Jack is the hero of the story because he is selfless, pure good. He would go to no end of suffering and pain, in order to help others. Aku would cause no end of suffering and pain in order to help himself.

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>>89427687
>Speaking of Sympathetic Villains

>>89446257
Freeze is a great antagonist, but not a particularly interesting villain desu. Like, he makes a cool opponent, and a really interesting one, but there's nothing that really ties him to like, being opposed to Batman. He'd need a different story, with a different hero, to really be a great villain.

>>89446301
>cool opponent
I see what you did
But the major conflict with Batman and Mr. Freeze is the fact Freeze is completely merciless. In the animated series Freeze made for a great villain because he was an example of someone driven purely by revenge, who mercilessly will kill anyone who stands in his way.
Now I will give you this Freeze doesn't work when paired with more violent versions of batman.

>>89446039
/thread

>>89438924
It's a lot of fun, but it doesn't pick up until about episode 11/12. Box isn't there a whole lot, but his presence is really widespread in the first season. His final raid is amazing.

>>89441426
Yep. I'll never understand why anyone here is so thristy for the MCU to get Doom. They're just gonna do the same to him too.

>>89442945
>Star Wars was suppose to only be a single movie and Darth Vader wasn't suppose to be Luke's father
No.

>>89445780
Holy shit, that's Red Forman

>>89436189
I enjoyed Kylo Ren, personally. He is pretty much the writers' realization that there is no bloody way they can create a new Darth Vader made manifest. He is indeed lame, but purposefully so, and what makes him threatening is the fact he's a powerhouse even as a lame, whiny fanboy,

>>89448242
I hate "powers = threatening villain" mindset. It's just a shitty excuse to justify existence of lame villains who are pretty much a joke.

>>89448242
Kylo Ren is a fucking idiot.
"Oh the droid that contains the map I need is in that building, lol I'm just going to fucking blow it up."

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>>89432963

>>89437571
If only Peepers had an inkling of Hater's power he'd probably have taken over the galaxy a while ago

>>89436397
>implying OP is not Kevin Feige

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>>89432963

>>89446811
Yes, you mongoloid, it's true. No one expected SW to be as popular as it turned out to be, and Vader and Anakin weren't the same person until ESB. Obi-Wan wasn't being an asshole, Vader murdering Anakin was the real backstory at the time of ANH. Another retcon was the Emperor being the main villain, originally Emperor was just a puppet for Vader, Tarkin and other higher ups.

>>89451470
God, I hate Ozymandiasfags so much.

>>89451502
Why tho?

>>89451520
Same reasons I hate Doomfags, except Doomfags are at least being ironic.
And Ozymandias himself is the most boring character of Watchmen, bar none.

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The best kind of villain is the kind that a reader can connect with, the more human they are the more frighting they will be.
Bad kind of villains are the ones that are like 'lol i just wanna blow shit up."

>>89452182
>posting best Jojo villain
mah nigga

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>>89452182
There is nothing frightening about "human and relatable" villains. If anything, they're pathetic.
The villains who are completely alien and operate on their own logic that is monstrous but is well-thought enough to feel like something a human being (albeit very messed up one) would think are the best.

>>89451470
Ozymandias killed 2 million people. That's really bad. He did out of a selfish belief that his pragmatic ways were the only ways to save the world. Ergo he's a villain.

Knowing that it's good to be bad.
It's great to be a crook.

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>The villain in Boss Baby. Not Donald Trump Baby.

Kevin Spacey was smart to drop this role.

>>89442416
>Infinitely better as a villain
>almost wins with no effort
>only outsmarted by Zim's sheer stupidity, and a group effort
Those are my favorite characters for these kinds of shows.

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>>89429025
It’s also worth mentioning that Aku and the Lich had Mako and Ron Perlman as their voice actors, respectively.
Neither would be nearly as memorable without those performances behind them.

Not to contradict your points, just adding that a really solid VA job can elevate a good villain into greatness.

>>89453997
Yes, in some cases the VA can make a tremendous difference, specially with villains that rely more in their presence than their character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSm9DDxQv8E

It's cliche at this point, but I always enjoyed the "villain who could have been/was a hero, until [x], or because they lacked [y]"

I also enjoy single-minded obsession, especially when the actual object of obsession isn't a bad thing - it's the fact that the villain cannot see the bigger picture.

Someone like Mr. Freeze in TAS. He was a smart, capable man who probably could've achieved a lot in science, but his obsession with saving his wife changed him.

Why is it so hard to have a scary villain these days?
The Beast was the last /co/-related one who's even slightly disturbing.

>>89454147
Obsession is always welcome in a villain, at least for me. It can be sad, comical, frightening, depending on how you present it.

>>89454188
I mean, it's been like 2 years since OTGW, It's not that much time.

>>89454205
Maybe, but there's been more "serious" /co/-related works and I felt the villains in them weren't even slightly scary. Or good, for that matter.

He needs to exist outside of himself, in some sense.

A symbol, a mask, a part of his costume, even a word - something that can show up without ever actually showing the villain, but still strike fear into the characters and/or the audience.

>>89438960
The Beast?

>>89454503
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_GSYF5NSMQ

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>>89427545
Sometimes you just need a villain who entire motive can be summed up as "Fuck that guy"

>>89454525
I can't believe I forgot about OTGW.

>>89436870
Oh Felicia, my precious, my bayyyby..

Did daddy's little honeybun enjoy her tasty treat?

*burp*

I trust there will be no further interrruptions..

>that New52 story where Nora was just an obsession and he was never really married to her, it was all delusion under the desire for scientific achievement

>>89440101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_unZTk1UzM

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When they can be as well liked as the protagonist, they just have clashing ideals and are not the main character.

It's not exclusive though, an antagonist can be as cookie cutter evil as Hades from Kid Icarus or like Aku and people still love them because of their personalities.

Or you can go full villain like pre-android Frieza with 0 humor. These bad guys know they're dicks and they wouldn't change anything about that.

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>>89428329
Pretty sure it was casuals who've never read X-men comics bandwagonning onto the "Magneto did nothing wrong" meme.

>>89456146
Uguu kawai desu
can mutants haz fredumz

>>89452314

Judge Holden belongs in /lit/ but I do agree we need more villains who tread the line between being unpredictable but are complex.

>>89445722
Never understood why people hated the movie so much. Bison's great, zangief's hilariously cheesy, and the rest of it is enjoyably shitty

>>89453997
>Ron Perlman
Cant agree more, The one thing I love about The Lich is all the stuff around him being the personification of Nuclear War and having him be voiced by Ron is icing on the cake.

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>>89432529
>1) Obligate psycopath/sociopath
>2) No tragic backstory bullshit

Oh, you mean...

>>89427545
BUMP FOR VILLAINY.

>>89457750
I am convinced you people only pretend that Lord Dominator is a good villain because she has tits.

>>89441114
He was just an edgy idiot who spouted college freshman level anarchist rhetoric. his plan was beyond stupid, and the only reason he got anything done at all was because the writing loaded the dice for him