Is Bruce Timm right?

>>89357173
Usually, but what are you talking about specifically?

>>89357183
About Batgirl belonging to Batman

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>>89357200

>>89357183
>Usually
Usually wrong you mean

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>>89357200
No Batman belongs to Harley.

>>89357261
Reminder that if people didn't tell Timm to aim for a more Fleischer-esque art style when doing B:TAS, he would have made the cartoon as gaudy as the Alan West TV show.

Also reminder that the best creative force for B:TAS and the subsequent DCAU was Dini, since his characterization is always on-point, whether for the cartoons or for the comics.

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>reminder that this is Timm's attempt to make a romantic scene

>>89357200
Slavery is illegal, even on DC Earth's US.

>>89357445
I don't think that's...romantic so much as...passionate.

There's a difference between love and REALLY wanting to fuck someone.

>>89357445
Timm has done plenty of cute/romantic scenes in his other cartoons. He didn't want romance he just wanted Batgirl to hop on fat batcock.

>>89357487

Except you can do firey and passionate and sexual without it being shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ0tpT_xtcg

Having them smile and maybe look happy would probably help.

Nah, it's messed up. Dressing up the young daughter of your good friend/ally and fucking her is just... ugh.

>>89357487
>>89357501
I think the word you're looking for is 'awkward'

>>89357629
Would you rather she fuck Batman, or would you rather she becomes married to the black man in her BCAU future?

>>89357642
I'd rather them not fuck at all. And it's alright for Babs to have a crush on Bruce, because who wouldn't, but when it goes further it's just messed up.

Bruce and Barbara make a good couple.

>>89357173
You don't need our validation for your fetishes Timm

>>89357629
Barbara is a person, not an object. She isn't Jim's property that Batman is appropriating, she's a person with her own independent relationship with the man.

>>89357740
Which is why I find it okay if she has a crush on him, but I can't see Bruce returning those feelings.

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>>89357707
No Batman and Harley make a good couple.

Timm's idea has merit but I will always be a Bat/Cat guy since I think Huntress is the better end game, I wouldn't mind if the Man/Girl relationship was really explored.

Batgirl as she currently is, is in desperate need of a subplot to make her seem like she's an actual adult, every male who appears in her books have been nothing but evil internet stalkers.

And Batman needs a real romantic rival for Catwoman, not a Silver St Cloud or a Jezebel Jet to be thrown away when next writer comes aboard or a Wonder Woman who absolute dead fish for story potential (look how Diana killed N52 Superman) but someone to be the Gwen Stacy to Selena's Mary Jane Watson.

>>89357173

Depends on your point of view:

Do you agree with the 99% of people writing the character of Barbara Gordon/Batgirl in comics, who say that her main love interest is Dick Grayson?

Or do you agree with Bruce Timm alone saying that because there was flirting going on in the campy 60's TV show between Batman and Batgirl, so therefore the always has been sexual tension between them?

Because Timm literally got this idea from his boyhood hard-on for Yvonne Craig.

>>89358093
Zatanna. Real answer: he needs a normal OC love-interest. Most of his chicks have been tied to Batman persona, it would be fun if Bruce Wayne had an actual relationship, where the girl doesn't end up dead or crazy.

>>89358329
You'd think that Batman would capitalize on his connections and try to learn magic or something. It's like the best way to counter a character like superman without a shit ton of Kryptonite.

>>89357642

Married to the black man because they're actually a healthier relationship than any version of her and bats have been.

>>89358093
I would say that idea is inherently flawed because Barman operates very differently from spider man. We cant just spiderfi Bruce's romance angle and expect it to work

>>89358329

Andrea Beaumont was that. Julie and Silver st Cloud also count to a degree, they loved Bruce but being batman interfered.

>>89359701
Well he did train with Zatara and some Asian mystics, so he has some knowledge. I guess he's more into piratical illusions and escape-art and shit. Straight up magic would make him even more op.

>>89359962
She's a villain though, not a normie.

>>89357925
>but I can't see Bruce returning those feelings
>an "old" man cant return the feelings of a horny chick

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>>89357173
He was wrong to have Dickbabs, which is a shit ship
He was also wrong to have Brucebabs, which is another shit ship

Timm is good at his job
His fetish choices are questionable

As long as the two don't overlap I'm fine with him

>>89360057
>All there is to Batman's character is his age relative to Batgirl

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>>89358269
Original pre-crisis Batgirl actually had it bad for Batman. Dick Grayson was a kid.

>>89360055

Loving Bruce for bruce still counts. If not for her revenge he probably wouldn't have become batman.

>>89360555
Fair enough. My point is that Bruce needs somebody separate from his "nigh-job". His Lois Lane.
I feel like this is why some people don't like Bruce/Selina pairing, especially in King's run right now. Instead of connecting as people they connect through their personas which feels like some furry shit.

>>89358093

>Timm's idea has merit but I will always be a Bat/Cat guy since I think Huntress is the better end game

Isn't Helena Wayne's backstory that her mother was killed by one of her old henchman and that while Helena wants justice she resents her mother's past and fear turning bad like her?

That's not a good end-game. Catwoman's basically a footnote and excuse for angst.

>>89358093

>or a Wonder Woman who absolute dead fish for story potential (look how Diana killed N52 Superman)

I actually think that Wonder Woman provides more story potential as Batman's love interest than Catwoman ever did. The reason why SM/WW never works is because writers completely change who and what Wonder Woman's supposed to be to prop Superman up.

>>89358269

I think the most important thing about the two point of views is that if it wasn't for Bruce Timm people wouldn't think of Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson as end-game.

Before the DCAU cartoons Barbara was the older woman who was trying to move in on the Batman and Robin dynamic duo. Dick didn't liked her. He thought she was a simple girl and a goddamn rookie, and she should just go. So he'd be an ass to her.

Sure, after she teased him back with her sexuality, where she pretty much proved to him that she's an older woman and him a little boy that know no better, Dick got infatuated with her - something the readers thought was creepy, by the way -, but that never went anywhere.

So Barbara went on to become a congresswomen and engage a detective, while Dick went on to lead the new Teen Titans and hook up with his alien waifu.

It wasn't until the DCAU cartoons that Dick and Barbara where shown to be the same age and college sweethearts. Where their chemistry and romance was a big thing. Of course, Timm did all of that because he's creepy and wanted to cuck Dick in the future, but still...

>>89361275
You just know that Diana would start killing Batman's rogues and that would ruin the relationship.

>>89361419
So Timm is responsible for the most cancerous ship in comics? Thanks I guess

>>89361451

But Diana going around killing people is wrong, though. She's all about giving people a chance, about being compassionate and being good at finding the hidden truths, about providing rehabilitation.

This no-nonsense warrior who drop niggas at the drop of a hat thing hasn't been doing the character any favors. Also, Wonder Woman shouldn't fight Batman's rogues. It'd make everything be about Batman and his world.

>>89361511

Unh... yeah. Pretty much, yeah. He's also responsible for Dick Grayson x Selina Kyle thing, which has since been teased in some rare comics.

>>89357351
Well, the more you fucking know, right?

I did know Dini was pretty important, but I didn't know Timm wanted to go that direction. I just assumed he made the right call and he was sooo great himself in his judgement.

I guess not.

>Barbara becomes Oracle
>Essentially looks and behaves like an adult
>Becomes Batgirl again
>Look and behaves like a 20 year old
Was this ever explained? Is this a reboot or did her spine get magically fixed or something.

>>89361560

Timm is a big Adam West fan.

>>89361577

Every women when they hit a certain age try to regain her lost youth and goes back to behaving little a teenager. It's really embarrassing for their daughters.

>>89361522
She wouldn't go out with intent to kill them, but when WW needs to make a hard choice she makes it. Would she let Joker live, or Zsasz?

>>89361560
That anon is lying. Timm and Radomski both submitted similar pitches that were similar enough that the two were combined. James Tucker is the West-fag and he got to fulfill his dream when he made Brave and the Bold.

>>89361632

She doesn't have to make the choice, though, and she can learn a bit how to better control her emotions and instincts when fighting, as Bruce can learn the every opposite. Still her attempt to kill enemies when REALLY, R-E-A-L-L-Y necessary can be something to be explored.

But we're going off topic.

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>>89357351
>Alan West

>>89361522
>It'd make everything be about Batman and his world.
So DC then.

>>89361755

Joe Kelly avoided it, but then again it is Kelly.

>>89361721
>James Tucker
Bless his heart

>>89358329
the problem with making a love Interest for Bruce Wayne is that he's a non character in the Batbooks, we never see his day to day ongoings he's always Batman, since Rebirth started Batman has only been drawn with his mask off when he boned Catwoman last month and the Trinity dinner scene.

the nature of the Batbooks don't allow for non Batman related side stuff.

>>89364353
That's true, but it's also the reason why his romance is ultimately unsatisfying and can't go anywhere.

>>89364353
>>89364538

Batman's DC cashcow and he works just the way he is. He has been mostly single is regarded as a tragic character. So DC won't change him with romance. Romance, good romance, leads to character development and that can't happen with Batman.

>>89364538
Except with someone who is with Bruce when he's Batman. Another Gotham crimefighter, perhaps. One that he's close to.

Like Babs.

>>89364782
Mr. Timm, please.

>>89357173
To me it's alwasy been about traditional pairing that have history, you know:

Clark & Lois
Bruce & Selina
Dick & Kory
Diana & Trevor
Harley & Ivy

So to me Timm is wrong, since Babs and Bruce doesn't have that much history together other than BTAS

>>89365695
Superior taste, Babs & Jason Bard could be interesting if someone actually developed it

>>89365790
Also Babs & Ted Kord had a lot of potential

>>89365695

>since Babs and Bruce doesn't have that much history together other than BTAS

You're forgetting the 60's shows.

Not to mention that Bruce & Selina were always more antagonists than love interests. They only became a thing during the 60's because of the Earth-0 concept, which almost used Batwoman (Kathy Kane) as the mommy to the Batman's child.

So if we go by history it would be Bruce and Julie (Madson) or Bruce and Kathy (Kane). You know, just to be technical, because those two were actually supposed to be Batman's love interest since the early years.

>>89357445
This scene is pretty much why this'll never go down as a great DC animation

>>89365695

>Harley & Ivy

Shouldn't be the Joker and Harley?

>>89365810
Julie cared more about her career though.

Barbara is for Bruce obviously

>>89365810
I know but by years Selina & Bruce have more history than Julie & Kathy, since Selina is the defaul Bat love interest since decades, so your technicality is right but doesn't apply anymore

>>89365836
At this point Harley & Ivy have more history than Joker & Harley since you could say Harley & Ivy have had more development than Joker & Harley

>>89365847

That's true. She was basically Grace Kelly in comic book form.

There's also Vicki Vale, who actually appeared in more stories than Catwoman between the 40's and 60's, but Vale's almost a Lois Lane clone.

>>89365882
Timm don't you have a Batman & Harley film to work on?

Remember when Bruce wanted to have sex with babs that one time in the 60s tv show
Timm remembers and since that show lead to Babs creation in the comics its okay

>>89365910

>since Selina is the defaul Bat love interest since decades

I don't know about that, anon. Catwoman show up a lot, but not so much as Batman's love interest. She more his frenemy.

You had the whole tragic dead wife thing with the Earth-2 versions during the 60's (that got expanded here and there in special issues) with a bit of teasing between the main versions during the 80's that went nowhere. Then the 2000's their relationship happened big, before being killed again. Then again during the early 2010's. And of course, more recently here and there.

>>89365910

>At this point Harley & Ivy have more history than Joker & Harley since you could say Harley & Ivy have had more development than Joker & Harley

I disagree. In every adaption since DCAU you always have the Joker and Harley Quinn as an item. Even in the comics is that way discounting the Nu52.

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>>89366098
<3

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>>89366290

And? They used Catwoman there for simplicity sake.

In the original comics about Alfred writing fanfiction about Bruce's son the mom was Kathy Kane. Not to mention that Damian's mom is Talia al Ghul.

>>89359942
This. Spidey's teen romance comics rendered through the superhero mold, Batman is noir detective fiction through the same mold. That's why his love interest is the archetypal noir femme fatale.

Why do Dick and Bruce share women? Do they get off on that?

>>89357200
Catwoman is the girl for Batman

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>>89366513
Yes, Jason's in on it too.

>>89361419
>It wasn't until the DCAU cartoons that Dick and Barbara where shown to be the same age and college sweethearts. Where their chemistry and romance was a big thing. Of course, Timm did all of that because he's creepy and wanted to cuck Dick in the future, but still...
That's why I love the idea of BabsDick becoming OTP in comics canon. It takes Timm's frustrated cuckold fantasy and makes it completely backfire. It's the ultimate counter-cuckoldry, it's like, cuck-judo - letting the creepiness of BruceBabs defeat itself by making fans cling more tightly than ever to DickBabs.

>>89366591

The problem is that comics have been trying to do that since the 90's with little success. They always do this "childhood friends destined to be together" which is really annoying, and the whole on-and-off thing that never progress make the characters look shitty to their other love interests and to themselves.

>>89366529

The problem with the BatCat romance is that the stories are always about Batman taming or fixing Catwoman turning her into a good, honest and compliant housewife, which is a bit sexist, and since that's the end-game and we must, of course, still have Selina as Catwoman to keep working as a foil to Batman or antihero in Gotham the relationship between the two can never truly progress. It'll be always this cat-and-mouse game.

That's why we should have a Earth-2 type of scenario where Catwoman isn't freaking dead, nor Batman as well, so writers can freely explore their relationship in inventive ways. I loved James Robinson's take on Earth-2, but i wish we had more prequel stories about the world's past.

>>89357173
He's not right in the head, not if that weird fucking torture porn comic he did is any indication.

>>89366816
You assume that we will ask, but we won't. No sir, haha.

>>89366807

>The problem with the BatCat romance is that the stories are always about Batman taming or fixing Catwoman turning her into a good, honest and compliant housewife, which is a bit sexist

What exactly are you referencing? 60's Earth-2? Because no BatCat stories have gone like that in literal decades. And there's nothing "sexist" about helping someone to be a better person you creep.

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>>89366937

>>89366947
No see if you leave a life of crime to become an honest person you're giving up your freedom..........................

>>89366947

>60's Earth-2?

Yes.

>And there's nothing "sexist" about helping someone to be a better person you creep.

It's all about the strong and moral male hero turning the devious and slutty female into a honest woman. It's a very old fashioned kind of troupe.

>>89366986

It kinda is, if it is done for a man.

>>89366986
Kinda yes. She's a criminal because she can be free financially and psychologically. Bruce would need to "collar" her, so she would drink tea with Alfred or play with kids while he continues being Batman. It wouldn't be sexist if neither of them change (status quo) or if they both do (impossible).

>>89367264

There's also the third option they go sometimes where Catwoman basically become Batman's sidekick. Like in the N52 Earth-2 where they were married but still fighting crime in costumes. But that falls into "Catwoman changing for Batman" thing.

>>89366807
>the problem with
There is no problem with BatCat
It is pure

That Catwoman and Superman comic is the ideal dynamic, except Batman already knows Catwoman intimately.

Brave and Bold is second best dynamic

You're making a problem where there isn't one, Black Cat was never a housewife for Spiderman

>>89366645
Babs as a character also has a much bigger connection to Bruce than she ever will with Dick
I mean you can only take shipping so far in most cases.
Dick and Babs never work out because they aren't really conceived for each other.
Robin/Nightwing was obviously being pushed to starfire to get rid of all the gay subtext with Bruce

>>89367117

So, in your mind, positive character development for a bad female character is inherently sexist? I find that attitude itself sexist, you act like Catwoman couldn't WANT to be a better person, in which case you're saying you know the character better than Wein, Moench, Brubaker, Dini, etc...

With all the material available at your fingertips, that's a hilarious position to hold.

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>>89366816
Don't forget that the Two-Face story that he did for Black & White also had some kind of torture porn and/ or cheating

>>89367360

>That Catwoman and Superman comic

The one where Batman's the meanie that everyone hates, where Superman is an easily-manipulated dumbfuck, and Catwoman is a cock-starved schoolgirl for Waid's husbando?

>>89367588
The one where she flirted with Superman while comparing him to Batman in her mind and used her criminal background as an asset while also trying to run away with some reward at the end

That is about as classic as the Catwoman story gets with a superhero, and Batman already being a billionaire who knows the streets of Gotham just makes them the perfect fit

>>89367360

>Brave and Bold is second best dynamic

You mean the future episode where they both retired and married? Yes, it is.

>Black Cat was never a housewife for Spiderman

Black Cat was never anything more than a fuck-buddy to Spider-Man either. He ended up marrying Mary Jane.

>>89367402

>So, in your mind, positive character development for a bad female character is inherently sexist?

Only if it comes because the characters is doing it to win a man's heart and not for herself.

>you act like Catwoman couldn't WANT to be a better person, in which case you're saying you know the character better than Wein, Moench, Brubaker, Dini, etc...

You failed to understand me. I was talking about the BatCat potential as an actual couple.

The difference between these writers' takes and what i was talking about was that despite Catwoman wanting to be a better person because deep down she always was and Batman believed she still could be, is that she was still prowling the night as Catwoman and doing whatever she wanted, including breaking laws and stealing things because that gave her pleasure and made her feel powerful. She was still very much an independent soul that answered to no one, including Batman. The status quo was firmly in place. Batman and Catwoman were still frenemies. Sure, they now had a common ground and helped each other when possible, but there were still things wehre they'd be at odds.

What i was talking, though, was more about the pairing potential. Batman and Catwoman being a couple for real. That can't happen without both of them retiring their costumes, because if Catwoman is the only one to do so it is a bit sexist, yes. If she's the only one to change to suit Batman's needs it is sexist. That why in the end of The Dark Knight Rises both give up their cowls.

>>89366816
He agreed to draw that that story for Lansdale before he had even read the script and immediately regretted it.

>>89367670

>and Batman already being a billionaire

Why is that important? For him to be her sugar daddy? If anything, it should be a good venue to explore their initial conflict. Her hating Bruce for being the Prince of Gotham and a 1% and all that before learning better.

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>>89361419
>>89366591
Remember that this exists, too.

>>89367818

Ah, yes, the old french tale of the son cucking the father in order to prove himself as a man to both himself and his family.

>>89367818
Oh, we remember, but that is even worse than Bats/Babs.

>>89367818

The fuckers almost did the same in the comics... TWICE!

Chuck Dixon, who'd take all the little ideas from the DCAU and adapt them into the comics tried to play with the idea.
Then Tony S. Daniel - of course it had to be him - wanted to actually have Dick and Selina as sex-friends after Bruce's "death.

>>89367484
That's not really torture porn and cheating is a literary technique as old as time itself.

>>89368050

Devin Grayson also wanted it in Gotham Knights.

>>89368110

Really? Fuck.

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>>89367680
>That can't happen without both of them retiring their costumes, because if Catwoman is the only one to do so it is a bit sexist, yes. If she's the only one to change to suit Batman's needs it is sexist. That why in the end of The Dark Knight Rises both give up their cowls.
This, basically... I remember as a kid saying to my big sister that the ending of Grease felt wrong because it was literally just "Sandra Dee slutted herself up", but then she pointed out to me that Danny Zuko changed for her, too, into a preppie. It just wasn't as noticable a change and it's undone the moment he takes his jacket off the dance sequence. But yeah, that's basically the gist of it. Earth-2 and TDKR's portrayal of their relationship is fine cuz they both give up their masked outlets when they realize all they need is each other.

>>89357445
Idk what's people's problem with that scene. It was like fireworks.

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>>89368110
Devin Grayson wanted EVERYONE to want Dick. She also wrote one of the first post-BTAS DickBabs stories, and that was right after ANOTHER story of hers where Donna visited Dick just to shiptease.

>>89367680

>Only if it comes because the characters is doing it to win a mans heart and not for herself.

And that hasn't been the case in like 50 years. Not to mention reforming for love is still not an inherently sexist act. How many countless times have we seen villainous men in comics and literature reform for the love of a woman? The idea that even villains are capable of becoming good is something that's been touched upon innumerable times, and one that's sure to be prevalent in the genre of superheroism.

Also the idea that Batman and Catwoman would have to give up their night-life in order to be a couple speaks to a grave misunderstanding of the characters as they currently are. Selina could probably live a normal life if she really tried, but Bruce would never ask that of her because that's not who she is. He likes both Selina and Catwoman, but just believes that Catwoman is capable of being a force for good. Bruce could always be an emotionally-unavailable obsessive, Selina could always be an untrustworthy and selfish cat-burglar, and the way to move the relationship forward would be to have the characters actually develop beyond that or to just accept that in each other, not to have them retire. It's just a shame that status-quo and shitty fans hold authors back from actually exploring these kinds of avenues with the character of Batman.

>>89369156
Out of context the last panel makes it seem like Crane didn't run away and they just don't notice him, and start making out. And Crane is too embarrassed to speak up.

>>89369450

>Not to mention reforming for love is still not an inherently sexist act.

It is because it's a very prevalent troupe and, worse, mindset. The whole "needing a man to be turned into a honest woman".

>How many countless times have we seen villainous men in comics and literature reform for the love of a woman?

It's not that prevalent. Not even in comics. Specially in comics, in fact, due to the nature of status quo. Can you name at least 5 cases where that happened?

>Selina could probably live a normal life if she really tried, but Bruce would never ask that of her because that's not who she is. He likes both Selina and Catwoman, but just believes that Catwoman is capable of being a force for good.

See, the thing about about Catwoman is that she's an independent and headstrong woman who rebel against the patriarchy and society, with Batman, as symbol of man's order and justice, being her oppositor. Every time he catches and bring her to the boys in blue, he's representing the patriarchal society and its attempts to cull women's independence and power.

I know what i just typed will set a lot of people off, but i'm not trying to paint their relationship and dynamic in a bad light. I actually love that aspect, because the cool thing about it is how Catwoman always manage to make Batman back into a corner with her femininity and cunning, slipping away from his fingers and going on to prowl the night again unencumbered.

That's the part of the game. Batman attempts to stop or control her and constantly failing to accomplish it. Sometimes she even to completely win against him with her femininity turning into a lovey dovey, but the point is that Batman's job or intents are still to try and dominate her. That's why the whole idea of her turning a new-leaf with his help and becoming his partner is a tad wrong and sexist. It doesn't matter if she's still Catwoman, because she'd be Catwoman on his terms.

So i disagree with you. The endgam is they both retire.