Why does the original Avengers line up sucks?

>>89302371
Because it was literally "Let's put together a bunch of heroes on a team that would be hard to write."

>>89302371
Hulk wasn't even an Avenger, he was just kind of there and was fighting other Avengers more than the villains.

Because fuck you Justice League, that's why.

>>89302371
yeah, Hulk shouldn't be there, Everyone else is GOAT

Because those were the only heroes at the time Marvel could pit on a team.

The only other heroes at the time we're Spider-Man (seen as a menace), The Fantastic Four (already a team), and the X-Men (a combination of both).

Hell, even the X-Men made more sense back in the day when the only people with genuine superpowers were media darlings like the FF and an actual god. Everyone else who wasn't a dude in a suit was a freakish monster to the public.

>>89302371
Because Avengers suck

>>89302371
No Cap.

>>89302371
No niggers.

No Goku.
How could they fuck up this badly by forgetting to include their biggest hero?

>>89303204
Would Goku be a good Avenger?

>>89302411

Because it was literally "let's put all the heroes we have right now that aren't on a team together except for Spider-Man".

>>89303473

...Probably? He would be practically powerless since it's not the DB universe, but he's still an accomplished martial artist.

>>89302371
Because Hercules didn't join yet. Now that's what I call a team.

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>>89303566

>>89303596

Practically.

I mean, is Iron Fist the muscle in the Heroes-for-Hire?

>>89303150
But that's why they're so good.

>>89303566
>He would be practically powerless since it's not the DB universe

I don't think there's anything that explicitly states that "ki" or something extremely similar doesn't exist in the Marvel universe.

>>89302419
Stark considers Hulk a founding member, and said once that he thought of themselves as The Beatles of the superheroes.

Also, I think he pulled rank during Operation Galactic Storm, saying he was a founding member, and Captain America wasn't.

>>89303968
heroes for hire is a 'muscle and more muscle' operation

>>89304073
>the poor man's Reed Richards
Stark lol.

>>89303596
>file name
But that's Shang Chi.

>>89304066
have you never read a single marvel comic? There are a ton of martial artist heroes in the unvierse that very explicitily use Ki.

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Because Ant-Man is just Wasp but less useful, and Iron man's suit was shit.

They were much better when Hank and Tony upgraded and Cap joined the team.

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>>89304066

To the contrary, we know it exists. But it doesn't make its users into Superman-level powerhouses. Examples: Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Temugin (Baby Mandarin). Hence why Goku would be a martial artist, but not particulary powerful.

>>89304155

Yeah, and Iron Fist is not the 'more muscle'.

>>89304187

Oh please. Reed may be smarter (debatable, after Extremis), but he's scatterbrained. Faced with the same problem, Reed would see 100 new avenues of thought, and Tony would just fix it.

>>89302371
Pym is there so it's perfect. Just swap out ironman for fem ultron, thor for vision and hulk for wonderman

>>89304319
>Iron man's suit was shit.

In what sense?

>>89304364
It looked dumb

>>89304374
no it did not

>>89304391
The origional iron giant suit? Yeah it did. He had worse over the years like absuit. But it was bad

>>89302371
How'd it suck?

>>89304330
>Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Temugin (Baby Mandarin)
All three of those guys aren't also Saiyans

Man now I can't help but imagine Goku having spars with Odinson Thor (assuming Goku keeps his powers).

>>89304453
It has no theme and coherency
Badly put together

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>>89304374
>>89304413

...No appreciation for the classics.

>>89304483

Neither are Krillin, Yamcha, Videl and Ten-Shin-Han.

>>89304512

That's like making fun of a cave painting.

>>89304508
Why hasn't there been a Thor v Goku meme like Superman v Thor and Thor v Superman. Complete the trinity

>>89304627
Not the art but the whole concept of the team

>>89304922

Doesn't it make sense? In any case, the concept of separately-created heroes forming a team predates the Avengers by about 20 years.

>>89302371
they were made by assembling all their B-material

and as a little kid, i never thought they sucked, i thought they all just needed a chance to shine

>>89304588
Is he wearing a skirt?

>>89304073
>Also, I think he pulled rank during Operation Galactic Storm, saying he was a founding member, and Captain America wasn't.
TOPKEK

>>89304958
>all their B-material

Are you on crack?

>>89305061

A kilt. I am guessing to protect the complex groin assembly.

>>89305163
this was when the F4 and X-men were their big guns

>>89305173
F4 and Spiderman. X-men were bad then. I think Hulk was probably their 3rd biggest at that point

>>89302371
>>89304512
The theme was "characters that could use a boost in popularity".
FF sold well enough to have its own comic. Spider-Man sold well enough to have its own comic. The Avengers was an extra marketing outlet to give everyone who was still milling around anthology titles some more exposure.
Then The Defenders came along and did the same thing with whoever was left. Only guy conspicuous by his autonomy was Daredevil. Maybe because he had his own comic from the get-go, idk. Makes me wonder how popular he was in the 60s. Captain Marvel stayed solo too I guess but he didn't have the same pedigree and was purely created to IP-squat.

>>89305262
Hulk got cancelled in 6 issues. He needed to cameo in everyfuckingbookunderthesun (Avengers being one of them) before they were confident enough to even give him half a comic again.

>>89304198
that is joke, yes

>>89304330
Reed is just better than Stark, better than eveyone really, in every way.
Better.

>>89302371
Also, pertaining to OP's pic: anyone have the deja vu page from Thunderstrike?
Windows 10 updated and now I can't attach files to posts, otherwise I'd share it myself.

>>89305173
Fantastic Four and ASM were the big books for them throughout the 60's.

>>89304607
>Neither are Krillin, Yamcha, Videl and Ten-Shin-Han.

and one of them are Superman-tier powerhouses. There are tons of mediocre ki-users in DBZ.

>>89302371
Because they were a bunch of characters barely able to hold an ongoing book, where most of them ended up folding into one of the anthology titles they had at the time. And since Marvel could only publish 8 monthly books at the time, teams were the easiest way to go

>>89305547

I don't think that's the answer Sue would give.

Or was that a 'Secret Wars' joke?

>>89305605

Ah, so it is something else that makes Saiyans as powerful as they are?

>>89305464
Daredevil was dead. Thr only reason they gave him to frank miller was cause he never sold, ever

>>89305173
>>89305262
Also yeah, X-Men were pretty B-list in the 60s. It's themes drew a dedicated core fanbase but most just stuck to FF or Avengers. It even skirted cancellation, a good chunk of early 70s Uncanny X-Men issues are just reprints of earlier issues.
It was Wein reinvigorating the team into a diversity brigade that shook it out of the slump and got people paying attention again. And Chris Claremont becoming writer that kept the momentum going/increasing.

>>89305699
>Ah, so it is something else that makes Saiyans as powerful as they are?

Not really. Just ki and knowledge.

It took Roshi 100 years to perfect the kamehameha wave and Goku got it down in 30 seconds. Krillin soon after.

Maybe ki users in the Marvel universe are just doing it wrong.

>>89305771
Doubly weird that they never put him on a team book then.
Was he just meant to fill a separate niche? Were they obligated to keep publishing him for contractual reasons?

>>89305822
They didn't even think he was worth a team book. An to be fair he wasn't, not then. Hell, Hank Pym had a lot of Tales To Astonish build up that people liked but not enough to have a solo.

I still think his Tales to Astonish were better than those old Avenger

>>89306166
they are but its not exactly a super high bar

>>89306166
Which begs the question of why they thought he was worth continuing to publish.

>>89305262
X-Men lasted for like 50 issues before reprints. Hulk only got 6 before getting cancelled.

>>89305691
>And since Marvel could only publish 8 monthly books at the time
?
Details? News to me.

>>89306997
Weren't most of those just reprints of the first 6 issues though? They redid those so fucking much at the time. Marvel was weird at the time. I like Tales to Astonish snd the random stories you get

>>89302371
I always tend to think the Avengers need to be a minimum power level to be the main team of the setting that stops anything that comes and starts some shit on Earth.

Never liked it when the team had a lot of street level or powerless members.

I still like the tiers with the team. With
>Cap, Thor, and Iron Man
>Vision, Wasp, Scarlet Witch
and then that wildcard level with random extras. Typically only like 1 of them at a time and it is constantly rotating.
>Wonder Man, Carol, Quasar, Photon, Namor, Black Panther, Hawkeye,

>>89304319
I always thought Giant Man was even more useless than Ant Man.

He's a guy who makes himself into a very large target. His deal is being a strong guy, but he is not nearly as strong or tough as Thor or Iron Man, Not as fast as them either and cannot fly. Most other strong guys are better than him. Like Namor or Carol. He's just some really tall guy.

>>89304330
Temugin can make himself into Iron Man levels with chi. But no one in the setting has done wacky shit like fly or blow up moons.

Goku would be much more like his older Dragonball incarnation. Maybe with the power pole and nimbus. He is bulletproof and can lift enormous boulders. He would easily be in the high mid superhero tier with his mystic stuff.

So be a DBZ style character he would need some Nega Bands, power cosmic, Power Gem, or be in the same accident as Photon.

>>89305605
Roshi blew up the damn moon in the second storyarc. Non saiyans can be tough too.

Marvel and DC have tons of chi users. The main difference is that none of them shoot chi out of their hands at all. So all they build upon are strength, durability and healing, sometimes not needing to eat food any longer.

I would love to see them go the original Dragonball route and make it the mystic martial arts type if Dragonball characters were introduced. Like training with demons, gaining mystic weapons of the gods to use and then getting magical help like nimbus, or other magical things to amp up their power like the mystic water,

>>89307544
Thor and Iron Man can't stamp on people though

>>89305794
You do realize that there are sales numbers from the 60s released? Apparently Avengers were selling averagely only 5k better than X-Men

Their top guns from 60s were
1)Spider-Man
2)FF
3)Thor (to my own surprise)

>>89308155
Those same people cannot just shoot Thor and Iron Man at the same time and hurt them.

Also with Giant Man being huge, they do not really need to aim either.

>>89307544
Agreed. Giantman is only interesting as a character development not as a powerset (except for wasp). As antman the ants are far more interesting and shoe his intrlligence better

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>>89302371
Because of Iron Man's suit

>>89308187
Was this Kirby Thor? Cause that may be why

>>89304073
So Pym is Yoko?

>>89308909
Yes. Kirby's Thor

>>89303553
At least they had some self control then.

also, if someone wants to check the sales himself
here is the link
http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

>>89304073
He was just there for one day and then fucked off until the MCU happened and synergy made him an Avenger again.

Hulk was more of a Defender than Avenger anyway.

Also that pulling rank thing was shit, Cap might not be a founding member but he carried that team when the founding members bailed on him and he shaped up 3 former villains into heroes while he did it. He is more of an Avenger than Hulk.

>>89307295
Checked comicvine earlier due to this thread. The first reprint issue (#66ish) was a story from the mid-#10s.

>>89302371
>implying thor isn't marvel's best character

>>89307513
>that last fucking line
ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER

>>89309345
Thor never felt like a Marvel character to me, I was big on Norse mythology as a kid before I got into comics and felt like he seemed out of place in that universe. Same with Hercules.

>>89304508
Hulk would be a better choice than Thor

>>89309446
Honestly, I feel the same way about the rest. Thor belongs in mythology adventures, Ant-Man/Wasp belong in mad scientist pulp, Hulk in fantastical, sci-fi horror.

Iron Man is the only who struck me as a cape for some reason. Yet they all get roped together under one banner.

>>89308187
Avengers had symbiotic support from 3+ other ongoings, by design. I guess that added some leeway, it was part of a larger web of books that held each other up. X-Men, at the time, was just the one stand-alone series.
>3)Thor (to my own surprise)
No shit? That's awesome. Thor's my bae. It's downright confusing to see how often he gets shafted compared to Cap & Tony.
Also hey, that finally explains why Journey Into Mystery's second feature was just more Thor. That mystery's been bugging me for ages. Thanks anon.

>>89309345
>implying anyone would imply something so silly

>>89309446
I can understand this feeling in that Marvel never clearly explained "gods". To this day, the most concise guide to what they are and where they came from is one Mark Gruenwald issue from the fucking 80s. And it still left some bigass inconsistencies that remain unresolved.
>>89309502
That was the fun of it!

>>89309001
>Daredevil was #4
Well dip me in honey and throw me to the gays.

>>89309756
Very true, in regards to the fun of it.

Can't speak for all classic Avengers, but I really feel like the concept fell apart when the numbers started pilling into the dozens later on.

I've always liked the close-knit misfit group archetype, which is why the first ensemble did work so well, considering the different worlds they came from.

My only thought was I wish their solo stuff matched more of what I said earlier, the closest I can think is JiM and even Aaron's much earlier work, and the best of that isn't even Thor's anymore. That world though would be perfect for him to return to.

>>89302419
>/co/ reading comics
not even once

>>89302411
And they only did that because Daredevil #1 wasn't going to be ready to ship so they had to rush something to print

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>>89309910
>but I really feel like the concept fell apart when the numbers started pilling into the dozens later on.
You read Busiek/Perez Avengers?
You'd have fuckin' lark with the first few issues.

>>89309958
I didn't know that either.
All sorts of lernding in this thread!

>>89307090
had a bad deal with dc
look it up

>>89308902
Were Wasp and Pym married there?

>>89310233
Don't think that happened until like a dedcade later. IIRC the Yellowjacket wifebeater thing happened fresh off the marriage.

>>89309502
so does iron man... sci-fi
but thats the beauty of comics

>>89308975
Funny how New Genesis was gonna be the successor to Asgard.

>>89309756
issue title/cover/number?

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>>89310347
Thor Annual. Thought it was 7, apparently it's 10.
It was the one with Demogorge in it. Pretty sure you can find the relevant pages on various blogs, they were the first 5 or 6 of the issue.

It also picks up plot threads from Thor 300 (and 301, kinda), which Gruenwald also wrote. Keep in mind though that they were the finale to a bigass cosmic storyline called the Eternals Saga, which is worth reading in its own right.

The last arc of Ewing's Loki: Agent of Asgard two years go was the most head-on address of how gods work that Marvel's published since, but it's presented a lot more poetically.

>>89310868
thank you so much, somehow i missed it. eternals saga is by far my favorite thor.

>>89311090
Cool, then I advise thumbing through 300/301 again to jog yer memory.
Gruenwald did Thor for a few more issues too, they were fun. He made a GOAT one-off supervillain (would post if I was at my regular PC).

>>89309990
Best avengers run still

>>89310233
Just girlfriend. Where are the rest of the pymfags these days?

>>89312134
Still a cuck then if his girlfriend wanted to fuck Thor.

>>89312134
right here
>>89312344
thats why he kept changing his identity
good times

>>89304066
I always understood ki, chi, chakra, etc as some kind of inner soul force you can do after learning how it works and how to use it.

Also going by Super he can use it in other Dimensions/Universes.

>>89309910
the original team worked so well Hulk instantly forgot about the whole idea and then the roster changed after like ten issues

>close-knit misfit group archetype
>misfit
that's not Avengers at all

>>89304330
>Faced with the same problem, Reed would see 100 new avenues of thought, and Tony would just fix it.
Hank would also fix it only to find out he made it worse somehow.

>>89307090
Marvel had no distributor back then. So they cut a deal with the parent company of DC/National which was a distributor, to act as Marvel's distributors. That deal limited them to 8 comic books a month, which is why most of the books were anthology titles. It allowed them to handle more characters.

It got to the point where Marvel comics were selling so well Independent News had to let them start releasing more books monthly. Cue X-Men being sold as reprints for ages.

>>89303553
wonder what would have happened if Spider-Man had been a founding member

>>89305794
I miss when X-Men and Spiderman WERE Marvel.