Can we all agree that this is awful

>>89228072
i can

>>89228072
i cant

>>89228072
Yes

The title of the TPB was "style>substance" which I thought was being meta about how terrible it was

>>89228072
Nah. I was going to complain about all the gayness but that can be hand-waved with Wiccan subconsciously warping reality to make everyone come together.

>>89228072
I hate how this became the definitive Young Avengers run for people. I love Vol 1 so much, but this is like fucking Rent. Something a lot of people treat as deep and meaningful when it's shallow and has no real deeper meaning. Like, all I got out of this book is "Isn't being young the best thing in the world?"

>>89228072
When did it become bad? Was it right after Children's Crusade?

>>89228331
The run started out with some promise, but as the book progressed, I just realized I didn't like these characters at all.

I liked most of it a lot
Gillen festishizes gay stuff like Ewing has a hard on for black people
bu they're basically they same writer

>>Kate Bishop and Chavez barely interact the entire run.
>>Chavez says "I seen the way you look at me, you're not as straight as you think"
>>All writers and fans are convinced Kate and Chavez MUST be gay.
>>Even though they barely interact the entire run.
>>Meanwhile, Cassie Lang is forgotten cause "Hot angry Latina is bae"

Wiccan and Hulkling are the blandest couple in creation.

What's even more sad is how YA fans are acting like it's a massive insult that a YA movie hasn't been announced yet.

>>89228412
I just want more Stature desu
Like a really, really big Stature

>>89228452
I have never seen that anywhere

>>89228452
gillenfags just want Wicked/Divine project with Matt Fraction's Production company to get picked up by a real network

>>89228476
Tumblr.

the one issue with speed in it that introduced demon patriot saved the entire series from being altogether shit

shame demon patriot went nowhere tho

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>>89228470
YOU WILL GET STINGER AND PRETEND TO LIKE IT!

>>89228072
Yes

I totally agree


Its toxic SJWism

>>89228572
I remember being stumped by that subplot, and then I realized what Gilleon was doing.

Demon Patriot is the Closet.
Speed was denying his feelings for men.

Runaways > Young Avengers

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>>89228647
>>Runaways gets bumped from movie to TV show
>>Not even a TV show, HULU show
>>Show bombs
>>Marvel "Oh well, guess it's time to scrap the Runaways altogether because nobody likes them"
>>Young Avengers might get a movie and longevity

>>89228647
Nah the original YA > Runaways

>>89228072
I can not. It wasn't amazing but it wasn't awful either

>Patriot STILL isn't back
They don't even mention him anymore

>>89228072
I liked it.

I really hate how all news outlets that want a YA film just want Vol 2 and ignore the fact that Cassie Lang is in the MCU.

Vol 2 was a piece of shit

I still don't understand why people seem to hype it more than the original run

>>89228331
After Children's Crusade it was clear the super slow original creative team was never going to do more Young Avengers. (CC was supposed to be the third arc of Young Avengers and it took 6 years to finish it.) So the editor started looking around for a new team to do it and hit on Gillen/McKelvie.

I don't think it's terrible, but Gillen himself said at the time that he just doesn't have it in him to do the traditional Marvel, continuity-heavy type of comic that Heinberg was writing, so he found his own way into it. That way is too self-consciously quirky and had that "YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SO AMAZING AND COOL AND TOLERANT" vibe that has become insufferable in the last few years.

So, not awful, but not really Young Avengers. He tried to find a way to do YA that wasn't all about old Marvel stories. It wasn't for me.

Part of the reason more people talk about this than the original is that it doesn't require as much knowledge of Marvel lore to jump into it, and a lot of people read it as a new series unconnected to the original.

Honestly I think the original run is overrated, but even Gilles admitted that his Young Avengers didn't turn out how he wanted

Didn't like Children's Crusade much myself, but this book definitely took the plunge as it went on.

>>89228072

it was flawed but good relative to """"modern marvel"""" standards

The biggest thing I hated (and still hate, honestly) was America being a fucking asshole just because she's a fiery latina from New York or whatever. Like, I loved it when she hit Carol with a chair in CW2, but I kind of wish that they would have had Carol leave her in a bloody heap afterward to take her down a few pegs.

>>89228072
as long as it triggers normies then its alright by me

I know Wiccan didn't have much of a personality, but turning him a guy who just happened to be gay to camp gay felt fucking weird. New haircut and McKelvie same face didn't help.

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>>89228072
Why Hawkeye looks like a lesbian now?

>>89231846
who's the naruto reject with the lightning hands?

>>89231907
wiccan

I bought this book purely because I'm a Loki fan and Gillen did a good job with the Kid Loki stuff in his JiM run. The whiplash to the massive pile of boring shit this was is incredible. Between this and the dumb retcon's to Tony Stark's past I'm pretty much done reading Gillen forever.

>>89231907
Asgardian

>>89228072
Worse. It was boring.

It had some characters I was damn excited about to see again. it had Gillen who had a fantastic run on Journey into Mistery right before this and then... Meh. Just meh. WTF went wrong!?

>>89228072

It dragged on and the "We're so gay and you probably are too" thing near the end - no thanks.

Too bad, as I like his stuff, generally speaking. Art was very sweet, of course.

>>89228072
What thew FUCK is up with the whole Wiccan/Demiurge thing?
They mean THE Demiurge right? The entity responsible for seeding all God-life on Earth? Gillen was a Thorfag so its not like he used the same name accidentally.

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>>89228705

Don't worry anon. We'll keep the gays out of your MCU.

>>89228307
>>89230487
Who will speak of the trials of the young generation than the white middle-aged Brit pop fan?

>>89228072
my team avengers book is Cage's Avengers Academy. Big Pymfag here and coming out of Slotts Avengers it was a great place for him to be, super caring to the point of blaming himself for all the kids mistakes. Tigra was awesome too, plus adding in a reformed villain in Quicksilver was good. And the kids were allowed to slowly grow and change, and not everyone for the better. The romance was even interesting, like Metal and Hazmat were an interesting couple.

It's a shame nothing good ever really happened to them after the book.

>>89233741
*my teen avengers book

>>89232240
Both this and Uncanny Avengers, and maybe even Hickman's Avengers, are a sign of the problem of what happens when a writer tries to continue stories from one book into another book.

Gillen wound up using Young Avengers as a continuation of JitM, which made me feel like he'd rather still be writing that book. Same with how Uncanny Avengers kept using plots that would have fitted X-Force better (and were planned for X-Force).

>>89228072

Don't forget.
Noh-Varr was meant to have 2 penis's. A main one and a backup for when it breaks off.

http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/75139121100/the-noh-varr-story-i-could-never-tell

I loved the first volume and CC but this shit was just awful. Gillen likes to pretend that he's so deep and progressive but the story is incredible flimsy and often resolved with some hand waving, and his portrayal of everyone is stereotypical and stiff.

David, now bi because reasons, shows no respect towards Teddy and Billy as individuals or as a couple and doesn't actually apologise to either of them in the end. No one reacts to this like they should.

Teddy is utterly disposable and Gillen took away all of his characteristics outside of being Billy's boyfriend. He doesn't even have his own agenda at all and in the end his feelings are swept under the rug because "love is magic lol".

Billy is a dumb and melodramatic stereotype of a depressed kid, you almost expect a sequence where he cuts himself while listening to My Chemical Romance. And even though the whole story centres around him he doesn't actually develop in any way aside from suddenly being a "demiurge".

Miss America is an asshole most of the time, but the narrative adores her so no one gives her shit for it.

McKelvies art is dumb, crooked and stiff, he uses a total of three or four expressions and the colouration isn't anything to write home about. Gillen's story arcs have plot holes larger than the sun, a huge amount of loose threads and his endings are anti-climactic

>>89234434
Sounds about right. To me this entire book reads as though the dialogue is being recited through an archness filter, which is a weird choice when even the previously established gays are basically just nerds.

It's the same problem with WicDiv: everyone of any importance has to be, at the very least, bi. It's great what he's trying to do, but by this point, it's becoming overdone. And compared to how it was done in the original Young Avengers, it's in your face, like it's daring you to say something about it so people can shout at you for being an intolerant fuccboi

>>89234866
I tried reading WicDiv after someone told me it was the next Sandman, but I just got bored after a while. It just felt like it wanted to be deeper than it actually was, yet wasn't ambitious enough to actually tackle its depth head on. The only character I found interesting was the old lady, and only because she reminded me of Kreia. Plus, hearing the characters whine about "mansplaining" or "white boys" felt fucking disingenuous given the writer's a white guy.

>>89233957
Penises. Penii.

>>89235048
The most eyeroll-inducing bit is where one character, who's a weaselly little shit the entire way through, is talking to one character and says 'I may be a lot of things, but I'm not transphobic'. Again, it's just done so hamfistedly. And the character then becomes a god. Compare it to Wanda in Sandman (since you mentioned it) in the Game of You storyline. Her story was sad and funny and had the most uplifting ending. It felt more... well, genuine. Gillen's a great writer, but he can't do subtlety. Fuck, even Rat Queens treated its lesbian characters with more care.

Nah, I genuinely love everything past the 5th issue.

>>89235358
I like Gillen's run of Darth Vader, but I guess that was because he was forced to move out of his usual "cast of trendy, otherworldly teens/twentysomethings get mad at adults for not being able to express alternative culture the way they want" territory.

>>89235358
Are we talking about Woden in WicDiv? I find it really lazy how just every other character hates him for the same reasons. Like, there is no difference in opinions among the characters in that book. They either love a character for the same reason or hate a character for the same reason.

>>89230487
>Part of the reason more people talk about this than the original is that it doesn't require as much knowledge of Marvel lore to jump into it
Really? Cause it seems to loop into bizarre shit throughout.

>>89231117
What I hate about Children's Crusade is the whole "Hey, almost all Avengers did shitty things, so Wanda should face no punishment" shit. I really hate how many X-Kids died and Avengers just said "Get over it"
...that and Cassie's death soured me on CC.

>>89228072
>Mousvel Comics
Yes, it is awful.

>>89235718
They all decide that they hate him because he worked for Annike (who may well have been right about everything, you know how Gillen loves his tweests) and because he's a coward because he bowed to someone who emotionally and physically abused him the entire time he was in her employ. So the moral is that people who don't stand up to their abusers are weak and deserving of scorn?

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>>89231675
When Chavez originally appeared, I thought she was fun, but then I realized what made her so irritating. She's allowed to be angry. She's celebrated to be angry. There is never a time where her anger lands her in trouble.

Compare that to Hazmat, whose anger gets her bopped, banged and bruised. Hazmat was angry a lot of the time, but there was at least repercussion and humor when things backfire on her. Chavez never has that, so she's allowed to be a huge bitch and that's supposed to be what makes you like her.

It's weird because I see WicDiv all over the comic book shops I go to, and it gets praised by news sites, but /co/ rarely ever talks about it. Not even to hateread it or accuse it of being SJW trash.

>>89235747
You're responding to someone who's annoyed that a bunch of New Yorkers, genetically mixed aliens, genderbending gods and interdimensional lesbians are tolerant.

>>89228412
Fuck angry latina man.

>>89235852
Plus, she has a legitimately shitty life with her powers. When you can kill everyone around you just by standing near them, I'd say you have a right to be mad at life. Meanwhile, America is beauty, grace, she'll punch you in the face.

Also, what is with hipsters using food as humor? Like, the way they go on about pancakes, or Leah and milk shakes...it's always a trend I noticed in hipster humor.

>>89235770
That was my problem with it, of course shit got real many times in the original run but CC seemed to be way too concerned with having to CHANGE THINGS FOREVER most of the time and being much more dire than that (Cassie's death is a good example, Eli quitting, etc)

>>89235835
It's not even that. Like, the issue that was just interviews (Yeah, that surprised me when I picked it up) has the Woden interview go on and on about how the writer hates Woden and he's the worst thing ever sort of thing.

It never feels like Gilleon makes fleshed out worlds but worlds where everyone has the same opinions except the villains/person who is currently wrong.

>>89235909
>Meanwhile, America is beauty, grace, she'll punch you in the face.
Uuuuuugh, every time I read that, I can imagine these 16 year old girls giggling like it's so clever.

>>89236028
It was literally a meme from Tumblr. That's where it originally came from.

>>89231907
sasuke

>>89235893
It's a weird book. Like, I read it, but I don't get it. It hasn't offended me enough to quit it yet though, but granted, I thought the best arc was when it seemed like the main character was dead.

>>89235995
Like, that last issue isn't paced well. Cassie and Vision II just die, and then all the characters just start talking about other things.

>>89228072
faaaaar too gay. too much SJW tier shit. Made Marvel Boy fucking lame (remember his crazy ass origin mini? now that shit was cool)

I stopped buying it after issue 2 and by like issue 8 I stopped bothering to ever read the storytimes

>>89231907
the gay Ass Guardian

>>89236046
That doesn't surprise me.

>>89236143
Also Heinberg chooses to kill off the characters he didn't create (Cassie and Vision II, though he's semi-original) while keeping all his OCs alive.

Probably he knew someone else would bring Cassie back while his own characters would stay dead forever, but still.

>>89235770
CC's problem is Heinberg was given this character who had been carelessly made responsible (by other writers) for years of horrible death and suffering and then he had to rehabilitate her, but without any cooperation from any book bigger than X-Factor. All the while trying to tell his Young Avengers story.

I almost feel sorry for him reading it because he tries very hard to acknowledge every bit of continuity that had happened since he left, even that mutants died due to M-day, but it all turns into a confused talkfest of a story, with pretty art.

Before House of M happened, CC was originally supposed to be a 6-issue Young Avengers story about bringing back Wanda and Scott Lang post-Avengers Disassembled. Think of it that way without the Decimation stuff and it would have been a much better story.

>>89230921
really? Did he say in what way? Was every single character supposed to be gay?

Tbh I quite like the book but I do think it gets a bit ridiculous towards fetishing being gay and equating with "being interesting and cool". Like some people just aren't and that doesn't mean they're bland characters or close minded homophobes.

Genuine question, has Gillen ever written an LGTBQ villain? One or two of the characters in Phonogram were kinda bad, but that was more 'misguided' rather than actually evil.

I dunno, I wanna absolutely destroy Miss America with my manhood, and this does nothing to convince me otherwise

>>89236956
Incase has done porn of her, just so you know.

>>89235852
Shut up S/D

>>89236702
Does Loki count as a villain anymore? Because IIRC Gillen is all aboard the genderfluid Loki train...

>>89239135
Not while he was writing him, no. Adult Loki is a bad guy, Kid/Teen Loki is a precious bishie whose gay genderfluid heart must be protected.

>>89236309
Also because CC went on so long it established Billy as the star of the series, which Gillen then ran with.

Billy is obviously Heinberg's self-insert - gay nerd who gets to have magic powers and be his favorite Avenger's sort-of-son - but he doesn't dominate the first YA series, Teddy's role is actually bigger in the second arc, but CC got blown up from one YA arc to a bigger thing and wound up inflating Billy's role in the series

>>89235938
Food gets instagramed a lot.

>>89239343
And sometimes, people jerk off to it.

>>89228307
Gillen when he just writes can be a decent (Uncanny, which I think is overrated) to good (JiM, that post-AvX Cyclops story) writer. When allowed to be self-indulgent and opine about youth culture he's one of the shittiest writers in existence.

>>89228412
I really wanted to like America but she's legitimately one of the shittiest characters ever conceived. The funny part is that Gillen said he wanted to do something different than the typical fiery latina character so what does he write? A latina who's always angry, bitchy, ready to fight and drops random Spanish except she's a dyke so different enough I guess.

>>89239249
I really liked that Ewing tried to establish some new lore for Teddy in New Avengers. It's probably not going to stick around but it was nice to see him get to have his own story again.

And being prince of space with a cool sword and a mage boyfriend sounds like a sweet gig.

>>89228430
Especially since Wiccan became an oddly muscular pretty boy right out of 90s Malibu comics.

>>89239677
Gillen didn't create her tho.

>>89239862
Gillen remade her because her original character was racist or insulting or w/e.

>>89240069

I think it was more she was a blank slate

>>89240082
He also said something about her being insulting because lots of cleavage and sex appeal, or something, in an interview.

>>89228072
I liked it. Why do you think it was horrible?

>>89240282
See the rest of the thread?

>>89239862
She appeared in one story and the basic "fiery latina" personality is still there. It's like Wolverine: sure, Wein created him but it was the work done by Claremont (plus the contributions of Cockrum, Miller and especially Byrne) that really "created" Wolverine.

Why does Kieron Gillen always look as if he's trying really hard not to piss himself? Google image search him, and he always makes that dumb face.