Marvel overships titles to retailers by 10% in January

There's not much that can be said that hasn't already been said in countless other threads.

Marvel's comic division is under-performing because their writers are too busy patting themselves on the back and appealing to an audience that doesn't buy comic books. That's about it.

>>88914856
>Marvel will be sending 10% extra at no cost to Retailers!

I'd hope that's actually the case since I've heard of retailers getting worried they're getting charged for shipping on books that were given to them for free. I mean they'd tolerate that for FCBD but not for a lot of low-performing Marvels.

>>88914856
Marvel a shit

>>88914856
LMAO This is just Marvel going public with their handouts of comics nobody wants and calling it a "thank you."

>>88915095
That "no cost" is for the books. They'll still be charged for shipping as it's calculated by weight and Diamond orders come in all at once with everything is packaged together.

>>88915240
Does that mean all retailers are gonna slash their orders significantly?

>>88914856
why doesn't Marvel do something that would really help retailers and readers and slash prices $.50-$1.00

>>88915305
no, the January books were ordered back in October.

Will this artificially inflate Sales?

>>88914856
Will marvel fire their sjw writers now?

>>88915353
Yes.

I guess it's a little better than doing 100% overship on titles that are guaranteed not to sell.

>>88915353
Seemingly so, unless Comichron makes a note about it in their monthly report.
Apparently they did the same thing in December as well.

I'm surprised Rich hasn't made an Article yet about how he was right and how Marvel's desperate to make themselves look in their performance in the direct market

>>88915634
This, I really wish Comichron and Diamond will deduct these in their findings.

>>88915741
>I'm surprised Rich hasn't made an Article yet about how he was right and how Marvel's desperate to make themselves look in their performance in the direct market
It's been posted on /co/ now, so expect an article soon.

>>88914856
well that is what happens when you put your comics full of far left propaganda that are simply lies like for example the wage gap and turn every white, straight male character either into a woman, black guy or gay person

>>88915336
The FOC would have been in early December though

>>88915353
According to the update in the article just now, a Marvel spokesman says it doesn't.

>UPDATE: I have been told by a Marvel spokesman that this 10% will NOT be counted in Diamond’s number. That is consistent with how Marvel handles overships on other product launches.

>Marvel NOW!’s performance with readers remains one of the biggest problems facing retailers, as enthusiasm has been patchy and nothing has really caught fire. Even if this overship is not counted in the monthly charts, having extra copies on sale to sell to readers is a proven sales booster in many cases.

That being said I get a little bit skeptical about the claim because I can't really think how this benefits Marvel.

>>88916061
Then if numbers AREN'T being included in Diamond sales, and if retailers STILL have to pay for the additional shipping, then how does Marvel benefit at all?

>>88916061
>>88916100
More of their products on the shelves?

>>88916123
Yeah, but it's not selling. So it's pretty much useless to a retailer unless Marvel suddenly announces "Great Lakes Avengers TV show!" or "Mosaic will be on the Inhumans TV show!" and get a temporary boost.

>>88916061
Sounds like bullshit tbqh

>>88915095
There is in fact a cost, there's the shipping and the space these books take up because they will take up space because they aren't gonna sell because they haven't been selling up to this point.

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>>88916061
>According to the update in the article just now, a Marvel spokesman says it doesn't.

Bull fucking shit.

>>88916322
Like I said in >>88916061 I'm a little skeptical about it since I don't get how it benefits Marvel.

>>88916123
They aren't selling, they clogging up space for many retailers.

>>88916322
And these were December sales, too.
Speaking of which, I wonder if Marvel ever announced that they were doing this. Or were they hoping nobody would notice, but when they did they came out with an announcement for January sales?

I wonder if it'll actually be 10% when retailers get their books in.

>>88916614
>I wonder if Marvel ever announced that they were doing this.

They sometimes announce when they do it, but they didn't announce it for the December stuff.

>>88914856
>trying to give the retailers by giving them a "gift"
Somehow is this free 10% pointless.
They increase their numberse, but have to do this next month again.
They advertise it towards the retailers.

They should use this instead to advertise it towards readers.
Maybe give it to cinemas, children hospitals or just plain toy stores.

I Tweeted at Ryan Higgins asking about this, and here's what he responded with:

https://twitter.com/RyanHigginsRyan/status/817160916491874305
>Yep, got my list on Wednesday. I'm getting 1 free copy of a lot of comics :/

https://twitter.com/RyanHigginsRyan/status/817161132083249152
>Final count should be counted for units shipped, but not dollars sold. Article seems to have conflicting information.

So until it becomes more clear, the Units count in Comichron's statistics will reflect the free copies, but the Dollars count will subtract from them.

>>88916061
That's not how Diamond works, to my knowledge

>>88916371
All I can think it that they feel if the extra issues are on the shelves, they'll be sold. Like somehow the reason they aren't selling is because stores aren't ordering enough.

The idea that stores would deliberately undersell something seems absurd to me considering the margins that most comic stores deal with.

>>88914856
Wait, hold on, does that mean that if they order 100 books of whatever they get 110? Lets say i want just 100 issues, could i just order 91 issues and get the other 9 for free? In that case doesnt that put them in a worst position?

>>88914856
My LCS owner was telling me about this. He was pissed off.

>>88918695
Final orders were made in December. This is Marvel adding an additional 10% to their sales numbers.

>>88918695

Stores put there orders in months ago, and the free issues are random. If you could predict back in november that Marvel would give you 10% free stock then yes, but do you know if they'll do this in February, March or April?

Are they learning with their villains?

And by villains, I mean their protagonists.

>>88918797
Damn, no way to jew their way out of this one for retailers.

>>88914856
My LCS said they tried to send them back after no one would even take them for free and Marvel told them no because that would affect their sales numbers so they just threw them in the dumpster.

>>88918763
>>88919023
Maybe you need to bring that up in the comments section of OP's article since it would counter what the Marvel spokeman said

>>88918491
The logic's pretty simple: If stores don't order something or order just enough for their regulars, there's 0% chance that a random off the street might pick something up as an impulse buy and then get invested in the series. If they ship free copies there's at least a greater than 0% chance, even if it's a very small one.

>>88916371
As others have pointed out the way sales figures in comics work is numbers shipped are portrayed as numbers sold.

So even if they just sit in a box in the store Marvel counts them as sales and reports that to their shareholders.

>>88919195

well to be fair people in comics have said that the numbers the public sees are 100% accurate

>>88916061
>That being said I get a little bit skeptical about the claim because I can't really think how this benefits Marvel.
The assumption is that by having more books on the shelves, it'll hopefully draw more attention and thus more readers, and they're presumably confident enough that once they get readers' feets in the door then they'll stick with the books.

Which, for some cases can be true. I imagine most people wouldn't try Foolkiller, but if they were given, say, a free copy of foolkiller with their purchase then they might be swayed to buy the rest of the run.

Of course, the problem here becomes the fact that most people aren't going to get things that aren't #1s and other than a handful of new books launching, this will be mostly #2 -> #4s.

>>88919219
Accurate to issues shipped.

There is no service or site or figure to actually quantify issues sold, just issues ordered and shipped.

The only reason people knew DC was doing so well was because the shops were having to reorder because they were not sent enough copies.

>>88914856
Looks like I'm getting a free copy of every Marvel comic in January.

Perks of working at a store.

>>88916322
>tfw you're pulling GLA and can't get it for free

>>88914856
>overshipping EVERYTHING

marvel is fucking dead.

Also got a good laugh out of "as a thank you to retailers." As if everyone doesn't know what they're doing.

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>>88916322

>Marvel sent him 45 copies of Mosiac #3...even though he didn't order one copy

Holy shit, Marvel can't even give away their shitty comics....this is the worst state they've been in since the early 2000's.

>>88919481
Hope you like paying more for the shipping mate.

>>88919498
It doesn't affect the comichron numbers. Which only a small number of people even look at or care about.

It gives retailers more copies on the shelf. The thinking is, most retailers order exactly what they will sell, with no shelf copies. Marvel is hoping by sending a few extra, they might get a few new readers on something.

>>88919481
Free Marvel books isn't exactly a perk.

>>88919550
I think its more like they dont want their shareholders to notice the huge drop off that has been consistently happening for months.

>>88919550
>>88919195
>>88919023
>>88918150

>>88919637
Possibly, but I think all they care about is earning reports.

My retailer has said he doesn't NEED the extra copies, but he's not upset about it. He'd prefer if they did it on #1's, not books he knows he can't sell. Or offer deeper discounts, or other things they could do.

>>88919701
It DOESN'T affect those numbers. Idiots misspoke about that and everyone takes it as how it works. Do some research, and you'll see that it's been corrected, even in this thread.

Yes, retailers are paying shipping. I don't think there has been a shipping credit, I can find out next time I go to the store.

>>88919550
but it does, a retailer just confirmed that while it won't affect the Dollar Share, it will still affect Units Shipped which does affect the Unit Share.

>>88919768
Whichever way it works, I don't see why people think that is the reason to do it. Stores don't use comichron numbers to place orders, they use their sales history. The only people that care about sales numbers are some people here for the most part.

Marvel cares about the money they make. They could send thousands of copies of a comic to stores for free to make it the #1 shipped comic, but how does that translate to profit?

>>88914856
so they're basically inflating the amount they actually sell? this is a huge fucking disaster.

like the lowest selling marvel title will usually sell about 15,000 right? 10% of that is 1,500. The highest seller might make about 100,000 and that's 10,000.

This is the most petty bullshit to get their sales up.

I wonder if this is on top of all the free copies sent to select stores? eg. the comicsconspiracy store guy who tweeted something like he bought zero copies of Mosaic and/or Foolkiller #2 but Marvel shipped him 40 free copies anyway.

>>88916322
what stops the from saying
"Our SJW comics don't sell because comic book stores are biased and don't order them"?

>>88916061
Didn't Rich get in a big twitter spat with someone at Marvel a few weeks ago about this? The Marvel guy was trying to make it sound like the free copies don't count towards Diamond charts and Rich was telling him he was full of shit?

I wouldn't believe a "Marvel spokesman" as far as I could throw any of the fat fucks they have working for them,

>>88920052
How that worked is they matched to what a store ordered of #1. So if a store ordered 35 copies of Mosaic #1, they got 35 copies of #2. If they had ordered 0, they got those 35 for free. If they had ordered 25, they got 10 for free.

>>88919916
>Whichever way it works, I don't see why people think that is the reason to do it.

Because it makes Marvel look less like they are failing.

>>88920163
My question still stands then. Will this linewide free 10% of all titles be on top of those target free %'s?

>>88920219
I think it's the 10% linewide for January instead of individual titles getting matched to previous orders.

I can't check with my LCS at the moment, if I find out the next time there is one of these threads I'll say what I do find out. My LCS will answer these type of questions, and he lets me see his invoices and ordering sheets and the like as well as the Diamond emails/deals.

Is it possible to get spell check going before people put out news?

>>88915353
Not at all.

There's a very clear distinction between amount shipped and amount sold.

>>88916061
Suuuuuuuure Marvel. We totally believe you.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/11/marvel-comics-won-november-2016-marketshare/

>>88920163
I'm gonna need to see a flowchart for this. I have no idea what's going on there.
>0 copies of #1 = 35 copies of #2
>25 copies of #1 = 10 copies of #2
>35 copies of #1 = 35 copies of #2

>>88914856
>As a thank you to retailers and fans who have supported us through the years, we'll be shaking up creative teams and providing the sort of comics that will appeal to the widest base of readers.
>Additionally, we'll be lowering prices so readers can try as many comics as possible and allowing returns for the first few issues so retailers can test their sales thresholds and reach out to as many customers as possible.
>We're calling it Marvel Reborn! And we're doing it because it's you that makes us happen!
>HAHAHAHA! Oh man, that was hilarious. Here, have some comics that nobody wants to buy from us and in all likelihood you'll never sell. Thanks, buddy!

>>88920371
>There's a very clear distinction between amount shipped and amount sold
No there's not. Diamond only releases the numbers for books they've shipped to US retailers. Whether those books actually sell isn't released.

Unless you're talking about the distinction between unit and dollar amount. Then there's a distinction since the free copies don't count towards dollar share which is why there was such a large difference between Marvel's unit and dollar share last month.

>>88920487
I'll try to make it clearer.

LCS orders 35 copies of Mosaic #1 and pays for all of them.

They drop their order to 25 copies for #2. They pay for 25 copies, but get 10 for free to match their total for #1, 35 copies.

If the dropped their order to 0 copies of #2, they would get 35 copies for free.

Retailers did not know what was going to be matched in advance, so had no way of gaming the system.

>>88920535
Oh, so they boosted everybody's orders of #2 to 35 at no extra cost.

That's just as scummy as adding 10% of every title to the box. Criminy, Marvel.

Atleast in a few months my lcs owner will be able to give out some extra comics on free comic book day

>>88920585
>Oh, so they boosted everybody's orders of #2 to 35 at no extra cost.

No, they matched every store's orders of #1. 35 was an arbitrary example number.

Let's make it even simpler:

You order X copies of #1. You later order Y copies of #2.

Assuming X > Y you will receive X-Y free copies of #2.

>>88920149
Brevoort said they don't count, then the Diamond CEO chipped in and said they did.

For Christ's sakes, fire Alonso! Yank the heads out of the writer's asses and start making stories, not gimmicks and then shame readers who aren't interested! My fucking God, if Bendis was so concerned with shaming people for not picking up Nighthawk, why not use Nighthawk in your own books instead of jacking off to every character you like you lazy fuck!

>>88920533
>Diamond only releases the numbers for books they've shipped to US retailers.
And people should be careful to think units shipped is equal to units sold.

There's a whole lot of shit involved about when a company is allowed to treat something as a sale.

>>88920647
Oh, that works too.
Still, pretty scummy, especially with how Marvel already gets retailers to boost numbers for #1 through incentives.

I almost wonder if Disney/Marvel are testing the waters to see what they can get away with so that they can boost numbers every month in order to stay above DC.

>>Hey Marvel! Nobody is buying your product!
>>Should we A) Lower cost for issues (Seriously, $4 - $6)?
>>B) Have a stronger story direction among your books?
>>C) Focus less on gimmicks and more on building brand?
>>D) Stop doing so many events/stop having people who don't know how to write these massive stories handle events?
>>E) Stop pushing characters at the readers who clearly don't like them? (Inhumans)
>>Or G) Ignore all the problems and start giving shops comics for free and acting like the customers is wrong for not liking your current products?

>>88920585
I'm guessing this is sarcasm, but it is actually really annoying for retailers. Other than #1s and specials like Love is Love, retailers can pretty easily guage what their sales will be for later issues. They know these extra issues aren't going to move at all and are really just going to be a burden on an industry where inventory and space management is a big issue. And that's withought factoring in that they'll be paying for getting these free issues shipped to them since Diamond orders come in at the same tine.

>>88920657
That's the one I think. Shows why people shouldn't believe this Marvel rep whose saying these won't count either.

>>88920074
Admitting flat out that no one's interested in their comics.

>>88920948
>Love is Love

My store ordered 2 copies for 2 people that asked for it. Nobody else asked and nobody else has asked.

>>88920948
Nah, it wasn't sarcasm. Marvel's screwing over its own customers for the sake of looking good on paper.

And Marvel isn't even offering returns on the extra stock. I'd almost applaud DC if they pulled the same stunt Marvel pulled on them a few years back and offered retailers incentive covers for copies of unsold Marvel books.

Articles with Rich calling Brevoort out on his lying/weasel words.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/11/marvels-brevoort-publicly-available-comic-book-sales-estimates-not-remotely-accurate/
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/12/the-impact-of-marvels-free-comics-on-diamonds-statistics-is-it-all-about-targets/

Basically Brevoort said last month that the free copies Marvel shipped don't effect the rankings. Both Rich and Comichron founder John Jackson Miller called him out on his bullshit.

I don't believe for a second that this free %10 won't be counted on the Diamond charts for units shipped. The "Marvel rep" that said they won't is lying out his ass. They are indeed comic units, shipped by Diamond to Diamond account holders (retailers) so they'll count.

>>88921157
I mean, what other reason is there to give away free copies of comics? It logistically makes no sense, and is just a burden to comic shops. Then again, this is the same company that acts like you're crazy for not liking the Inhumans.

>>88920660
If Alonoso goes, Bendis will absolutely become next EIC.

>>88921264
The given marketing reason makes a lot more sense than transparently cooking the numbers in a way that buyers, retailers, and investors all know is bullshit.

>>88915071

FPBP

At the LCS I work at alot of people are leaving Marvel. Just had a guy yesterday read Civil War 2 and swore off them for good.

>>88922278
A fate worse than death for Marvel Comics.

>>88922982
>working at an LCS
>letting somebody read Civil War 2
You had one job, Anonymous.

>>88922982
I still don't get why people fall for the Bendis trap. I mean, he is literal story poison

>>88922429
It's so annoying that we're dealing with a company that will do everything to polish a turd instead of actually fixing it.

I'M DC

SON OF A BITCH MARVEL

MARVEL IS PIG

DO YOU WANT A SJW?

DO YOU WANT A POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?

MARVEL IS PIG DISGUSTING

AXEL ALONSO IS A MURDERER

FUCKING HOUSE OF IDEAS

How FUCKED would Marvel be if they didn't have Mouse money backing them?

Is there any chance in the next 10 years of them becoming a DC imprint?

>>88924084

No, but there is a chance of no more DC films in 10 year because Marvel shamed them out of the business

>DC can't make good movies anymore
>Marvel can't make good comics anymore

Pottery.

>>88918150
Off topic but is The Geekbox any good been liking this guys twitter so i was just wondering

>>88922278
Sana is next in line

>>88924309
Somehow there's got to be a way to jam them both together and get a compdsny that does good comics and good movies.

Knowing our luck we'd just get bad everything instead.

>>88924309
As mediocre as DC's cinema offerings are, I don't see why everyone thinks Marvel's movies are so much better. It's the same ingredients in a more brightly-lit tin. It gets so that I can't remember exactly which things occurred in exactly which movie.

>>88923648
I try. I tried but unless someone specifically ask for my suggestion/opinion I don't even bother, The guy finished reading the book looked right at me and I just said "We told you. We all told you."

It makes me sad cause I honestly like recommending books to people but the only ones that are open to my to anything I say are people who are either new to comics or have been out of the had to years.

>>88924309
>/co/ only discusses Marvel movies when there is a trailer or it's out in theaters, otherwise, no threads about them whatsoever.
>meanwhile, /co/ is still arguing about MoS and BvS daily.
DC makes the superior movies, too.

>>88926082
>/co/ is still arguing about MoS and BvS daily.
Only because of the same 3 spergs/reddit fags that continue to try and defend those pieces of shit.

99% of DCfags myself included call them out for the horse shit they are. I may dislike most Marvel characters and their company as a whole but at least their movies don't make me want to kill myself.

>>88926259
I've never been to Reddit but I enjoyed both MoS and BvS and DC is the only big two I read, no joke. And the Marvel movies are pretty bad, desu.

>>88914856
>fucking print comics in 2016
>they've only been available at retail for the last decade
holy fucking shit

hey retards you know how archie comics are still going strong IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE SOLD IN FUCKING NEWS STANDS AND SUPERMARKET CHECKOUTS YOU FUCKING IDIOMS

and why the FUCK haven't you cucks gone digital yet? Make a fucking fantastic online comic viewing platform, make it free. Offer downloads and quality options and put every single fucking comic on it.

"how would it make money"

you embed fucking ads in the comic files. in the actual pictures themselves. in real time, the server sees a page request, downloads an ad into it, turns that into a picture file, and sends it off. Sometimes on the sides, sometimes on top, you fucking name it. but your service platform is just SO FUCKING GOOD that people put up with it. You know how much people fucking like FREE SHIT?

you fuckers can't fucking keep going on like this. there needs to be a serious priority shift. You could even still fucking send out print copies to retailers, the only people who buy now are hardcopy enthusiasts anyways.

>>88926312
Archie books are reprints and returnable retard. they don't put new material in supermarket digest.

>>88915959
Yeah, it would suck to have a diverse, larger paying market.

>>88926312
Archie's reprints are distributed through a company that isn't Diamond Comics Distributors, who hold a monopoly on comic book distribution. Also, they have rules about returnability, which is why grocery stores and the like don't bother with them.

And comics HAVE gone digital through ComiXology. Or have you been living under a rock since 2008?
Regardless, digital comic distribution is a tricky area, since it can step on the toes of physical retailers if you offer digital comics at a lesser price than physical releases.

>>88926312
Your post is like 10 years behind.

>>88916100
>>88916204
>>88916322
John Jackson Miller of Comichron showed up in the comments section of the Beat article:

>Overshipped copies have been included in the Diamond charts without the reduction and asterisk you see in returnable cases, which is how you can get a book like MOSAIC #2 in November where the dollar rank was far lower than its unit sales rank, as seen here (http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/597?articleID=187743) and below:

>92 85 26.93 SEP161045 MOON KNIGHT #8 $3.99 MAR
>93 148 26.28 SEP161030-M MOSAIC #2 $3.99 MAR
>94 86 26.19 SEP161064 ALL NEW X-MEN #15 $3.99 MAR

>Normally, you’d see the unit and dollar rankings for identically priced items from the same publisher clustered together, as is the case with Moon Knight and All New X-Men (barring a Loot Crate or other sale where Diamond received a small share of cover price). But Mosaic is far out of place, suggesting a large number of copies shipped for less than the going rate. MOSAIC #3’s numbers last month were matched with #1, for example: (https://twitter.com/RyanHigginsRyan/status/803980448590237696)

>For years, we’ve noted that deep-discounted graphic novels have the same kind of unit rank/dollar rank split; it apparently has happened before now with overshipped comics, too. If Diamond is changing its reporting practice for January, that’s worth knowing; I have a query in.

>>88926546

>Diamond does cull from its rankings books where the cover price is free (or below a dollar, in fact) — a practice started after Free Comic Book Day and the little bout of stunt pricing that put BATMAN: THE TEN-CENT ADVENTURE at the top of one month’s chart — but such titles do still count toward market share. I’m guessing it would be harder logistically for Diamond to cull just the free issues of paid titles from the unit ranking table, which is intended to be a listing of what went onto the trucks; Marvel’s talking 10% for January, but overship levels have historically varied from book to book.

>It’s possible the reference was to no impact on dollar market share, which would certainly be correct — but we’ll soon see. There are a lot of demands on the charts today — communicating relative sales levels to retailers, painting a competitive picture, and informing collectors of how many copies exist — and sometimes those demands are at cross-purposes when it comes to particular statistical situations.

>>88916061
This is a clear lie, comichron in their blog and on Reddit specifically said that oveship counts towards unit share. What PR person is saying is half true though, it doesn't affect dollar share.
Marvel's motive is clear, over ship the books so they don't lose in unit share and they can't possibly lose in dollar share because DC comics are way cheaper.
I'm really hoping comic division starts sustaining losses soon and some heads (hopefully Alonso and Brevoort) are chopped off. Otherwise comics will never get better.

>>88926345
They actually do. The lead story is new, but only 5-6 pages long. So nothing significant.

The digests are also returnable and sell less than most comics do. I think 25-30k last time numbers were thrown around, but they don't have to publish those statements anymore.

>>88923847
Umm. Ok?

>>88927456

Admitting you're a crossposter. Drink bleach.

>>88927456
>and on Reddit

Where exactly on there? I'm curious about what people are saying to compare with or against what's being said here and on Twitter and on Bleeding Cool.

All of it is just pointing to the Marvel spokesman doing damage control.

>>88915071
perfectly said.

>Calling out crossposter
>on /co/mbler
Anon, this board is filled with 80% Reddit, tumbler and CBR. And I actually don't post there, I only go there for comic related news and previews because all the comic related news sites are broken and shit.
>>88927575
https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/5hya2o/november_2016_comics_estimates/db48mwt/?context=3
It basically confirms what Rich the Leech reported. People are actually retarded enough to think Marvel isn't losing anymore and Rebirth inflation is over but reality is far from it.

>>88927690
>>88927551

>Marvel can't even give away comics for free with their cold diarrhea in a dixie cup sjw opinions.

Whouda thunk it, the people who call nerd and geek culture "toxic" are the same people that won't buy comics.

Even if you pander to them at the expense of your own loyal audience.

>>88915071

>Marvel's comic division is under-performing because their writers are too busy patting themselves on the back and appealing to an audience that doesn't buy comic books. That's about it.

As opposed to the current audience, which pirates, buys in trades, or sticks to a few titles and can't be persuaded to explore any others?That's a lazy "muh comics" answer. Marvel's problem is that a lot of their current output is CRAP and they're pushing those titles to the detriment of their whole selection.

1) The Inhumans aren't replacements for the X-Men. No matter how hard you try, a monarchy and a transformation that doesn't have to happen is going to be a hard sell to Western audiences that value democracy and free will. They're an even harder sell when they're being used to replace characters specifically crafted to be representative of every minority, outsider, AND coming of age struggle - and that have half a century of public recognition. November starting IvX didn't even manage to boost the Inhuman titles into the top 100. Fucking Foolkiller outsold those titles, and that's about as D-list as Marvel HAS.

2) Event fatigue on top of garbage events. I can't remember the last time Marvel wasn't in HUGE EVENT mode. CW2 spawned out of Secret Wars 2015, which was led into by most of 2015's titles, which were barely sorted from AXIS and Original Sin, which were just after Infinity, which was the result of Age of Ultron, and on, and on... I don't think there's been 4 months in the last 4 years that hasn't had a HUGE EVENT, and that's not good. It's extremely difficult to build trade-size arcs without interruption in that environment, and if "everything you know is going to change!", it's a lot harder to create characters that get new readers attached. Aside from that - CW2 sucked. It was a bullshit conflict that was never explored well, had the usual problems of everyone acting like morons, and the main character literally pulled a Poochie.

>>88924309

Lego Batman

Printing money. Get ready for the Legoverse.

>>88924127
t.bitter Mouseketeer

>one month later
>Marvel offers free storing space to retailers

>>88927993

It's no surprise sales are suffering when the big event is garbage - tie half your sales to an anchor, it's not a mystery which way they're gonna go.

3) Bad writing. Captain Marvel has been crap for the last year or two, because the writers have simply said "Carol's super popular now, see?", as opposed to actually writing her in a way that would let readers accept that popularity. No comic character should ever be walking into a room plastered with posters of them and lamenting how the world loves them for something unless you've written the scenario to make that believable, and they haven't. You have similar issues in Captain America: Sam Wilson - illegal immigrant sidekick can be an interesting concept to explore. Daredevil did it a few months back under Soule. What Soule didn't do was throw that sidekick at thinly disguised analogs of Ann Coulter and SJW strawmen. There are problems like this up and down the line - LOLWACKYRANDOM and barely veiled social commentary aren't a substitute for good writing, and there's too many other places to find the former nowadays.

I don't blame Marvel for wanting to reach untapped markets. (Untapped, not "well, they just don't read comics".) They're just working against a lot of institutional memory, that says story matters less than flashy art, catchy headlines, and HUGE EVENTS. But people ended up liking Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Miles Morales, and others, even though they weren't aimed at "traditional" markets, because they were written well and avoided those pitfalls as best they could.

>>88928008
I'll take that in a heartbeat over the current DCEU crap.

>>88927690


This whole thing is bringing to mind when Tom Brevoort got into an argument with someone on Twitter over reported sales.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/10/fanboy-rampage-tom-brevoort-vs-beeding-cool-reader-vs-rich-johnston-marvel-sales/

Where Brevoort said:

"I don't see how we can be blamed in a month when we outsold everybody else."
"Again, you're talking about rankings, not sales. We trounced DC sales handily in Nov."

Sure, the reported unit and dollar share was higher than DC. But if you remember, Venom #1 and Renew Your Vows #1 had 1:1000 variants. And a bunch of Marvel stuff that was high on the charts in October (debuts of Champions, Deadpool: Back in Black, Doctor Strange and the Sorcerers Supreme) dropped down the charts fast in November.

>>88928218
>people ended up liking Miles Morales

w u t

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You know, it's one thing to classify a regular comic, it's another thing to classify a $35 book and expect retailers to order it blind.

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>>88928547
I feel for comic shops that have to put up with Marvel's shit these days.

>>88924084
If Marvel didn't have the Mouse backing them they wouldn't be in this situation.

They're only doing this shit because literally don't have a care anymore.

>>88928634
Fuck them. They're responsible for almost all the shit Marvel pulls and totally deserve it. They basically encouraged Marvel to pull all this shit when they let their stores get flooded with artificial shit.

>>88928052
>charged shipping for the extra space to be delivered to the shops
>owners have to pay to have it attached to their shop
>marvel reps just show up at shops like mafia and force their NOW "insurance" policy

>>88929116
>no Jack Kirby to challenge them to a fistfight ;_;

>>88928547
retailers have only themselves to blame

>>88928218
You can write a good comic no matter what your politics are. Cerebus was good and Dave Sim believes that women are literally not human beings.

The problem with current Marvel isn't that the writers are leftists, it's that the writers are shit. If they were conservatives they'd be writing heavy-handed political allegories about Captain America beating up Muslims, and those comics would still be shit.

>>88916061
>According to the update in the article just now, a Marvel spokesman says it doesn't.
It does, though.

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>>88926082
They do have the superior meme power while Marvel is by and large forgettable.

>>88914856
Marvel is burning.

>>88928868
>Lets blame the victim instead of MUH MARBEL.

>>88927993

>As opposed to the current audience, which pirates, buys in trades, or sticks to a few titles and can't be persuaded to explore any others?That's a lazy "muh comics" answer. Marvel's problem is that a lot of their current output is CRAP and they're pushing those titles to the detriment of their whole selection.

To be fair, a lot of the reasons Marvel sucks right now is because they seem to think that having SJW Tumblrina characters and plots equals having a story. Ironheart is a genius black teen. That's the story. That's all you need, according to modern Marvel. Champions, they're quirky teens. Sometimes they do stuff. That's it.

Now that isn't to say that is their ONLY problem. Civil War 2 proves that their creative bankruptcy and fictional ineptitude runs pretty deep. But you also can't ignore the Tumblr factor in their decline. And let's really be honest here. If their only problem was just crap stories, they'd still be okay, as Marvel readers have shown time and time again that they are ready and willing to forgive terrible stories. Remember, Spider-Man still sold really well after OMD, and Civil War is their best selling event book ever.

>>88930475
Amazing.

>>88914856
diamonds being shitty for a long time

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>>88930652
Hell, look at Miles Morales book. The big hook is that he and Spider-Gwen hook up? That's out of left field and has no buildup. Remember how long Hazmat/Mettle took to pay off? That worked because it was being built upon slowly.

>>88914856
>caring about marvel at all
kill yourself

The problem with going after the Tumblr crowd is that they aren't die hard fans. To put blunt, they burn twice as bright, but burnout half as long. Not saying they are smart, just that when they become fans of something, they hit really hard, and then get bored and move onto the next franchise that jingles their keys. Marvel coming out consistently is a reason for their longevity, but as soon as a bigger franchise comes along, they'll leave it in the dust.

For example, look at the characters the Tumblr fandom loves. They never go beyond the surface level stuff. They care about the Tony, Steve and Peters, but anything like Moon Knight, Iron Fist, or Punisher won't grab their attention. Hell, my showing of Civil War had a girl gasp loudly whenever Steve, Spider-Man, or Bucky showed up on screen, and she started shouting "What the fuck!" very loudly when they froze Bucky in the mid credits scene. These fans don't last because they grow out of things.

>>88930751
It seems like books based on good stories and not gimmicky crap never sell well though, don't they?

>>88928831
I dunno, if they really didn't care you'd think they wouldn't even bother with trying to inflate sales like this.

>>88930833
Kind of the curse of Marvel. Whenever you get writers who genuinely care about telling good stories, they never sell. Mainly because they get characters who are not A-List but can grow and evolve. Meanwhile, you get people who just have one crowd pleasing page an issue and skate by on that (Bendis).

>>88928349
Didn't Champions also have a deal with Scholastic at the time to put the first issue in school bookfares that were counted for the sales too?

>>88930818
>get bored and move onto the next franchise that jingles their keys
That's pretty much it. Tumblr literally always has some flavor of the month thing going on, but it's always forgotten in favor of whatever replaces it as FOTM.

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>>88914856
>Marvel giving out 1/10th of their comics for free to keep up appearances.
Wonderful. This is just one step above Disney forcing Marvel to make comics with random hacks just to keep up appearances since they're just an IP portfolio now. Or are we there already?

>>88931081
Hell, look how nobody cares about Dr. Who anymore.

I really don't want Marvel to die, but I would like everyone responsible for modern Marvel to definitely die.

Marvel needs to be torn down and rebuilt completely like Rebirth.

>>88930751
God damn I miss this book. This was before Marvel went full Tumblr with their stories. And really, if you look at it, it still has all that "diversity" that Marvel loves to crow about. It has three women on the team, a gay guy, a Hispanic guy and whatever the fuck Mettle was before he became teenage Red Skull. But it never felt gimmicky. It never felt cheap. It had heart, like that cover. I cared about all these characters. And then, to reward that care, Marvel threw them into a death match and blew one of them up issue number one. I think that might have been the point that I really stopped giving a crap about Marvel characters, because it was at that point that it became clear that the company had no idea what a fucking earned death is or how to revolve a story around it.

You know if they just made a % of them returnable they would not have to this nonsense

>>88930652
Normally you have bad run than a good run.
But nowaday you got a period of a bad run.

>>88930833
Thats because the good story books are longtime fire.
Gimicky books are just a cash grab and burn quick.
Thats steady income versus big #1 one-time money.

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>>88932253
Right there with you. I had been a lifelong Marvel fan but the bullshit of OMD and then this whole debacle made me never want to pick up another Marvel book again. I had hopes that they would eventually turn it around at first but it has somehow only gotten worse every damn year, it's almost impressive.

>>88932253
I remember my friend saying "I just don't want anything bad to happen to the Academy kids" when the book was still coming out.