Are Thor, Hercules, Mephisto etc Cosmic characters instead of Mystic?

>>88625385
Gods will be gods

>>88625385
No, and fuck the MCU for pushing the science aspect of Thor.

>ibn4 Thor fought aliens in his first run.

Yeah, so did fucking Spider-Man, does that make him cosmic?

>>88625464
Stan/Jack era Thor was big into the magic science. Loki would do stuff like track Absorbing Man with a Meson ray gun thing.

Gradually the techno aspect of Asgard was downplayed for the magic, and when the movies tapped into the Stan/Jack era comics casuals chimped out REEE NOT MUH MAGIC.

>>88625594
That's because Simonson Thor is the definitive Thor and not Kirby.

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>>88625464
>Yeah, so did fucking Spider-Man, does that make him cosmic?
Sometimes

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>>88625464
Have you actually read literally any pre-JMS Thor, anon?

>>88625594
I legitimately didn't even know Asgard wasn't just sufficiently advanced technology until after the first Thor movie came out and I started learning more about Thor.

>>88625738
Which is why I'm gonna have to disagree with you because clearly the tech aspects made it into the public consciousness cause I'm casual as all fuck and I knew more about the tech aspect than the magic.

>>88625738
And Simonson was Kirby-inspired through and through.
...AND sci-fi to the fucking max.
Wash yo' mouf out.

>>88625874
This.
The most important legacy of the Simonson run was an alien cyborg Thor with a sentient Spaceship.

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>>88625385
>>88625462
>>88625464
OP here. I should probably mention that I mean "Cosmic" in the same way that Eternity, Galactus or Order/Chaos are Cosmic. To Me Marvel Mystic means Dr Strange stuff, and they're clearly something very different. Maybe they're literally made out of native Cosmic energy.
In retrospect, yeah, my wording is hella easy to misinterpret.

>>88626056
>They're clearly something very different

Not really. A lot of Dr. Strange stories had him going up against Eternity or Master Order and Lord Chaos.

It's really just a matter of aesthetics. Kirby-machines vs Dikto mindscapes. The big cosmic guys are always made up of "X-force" or "The power X" or whatever.

>>88625874
>>88625914
Yeah of course Simonson did sci-fi but he's the one that moved Asgardian stuff away from techno-magic and established more mythological shit.

No such delineation exists in Marvel. "Cosmic"=/=Spaceships and rayguns like so many people seem to think (though they are a part of it), Cosmic is basically the next stage after the heroic stage of earth heroes and villains flinging shit at each other. Aliens, space travel, other dimensions, godlike entities, all this stuff falls under the Cosmic umbrella.

As far as I'm concerned "mystic" only applies to earthbound characters who tap into cosmic powers through entities that they just don't really understand. Once you understand it though the mystique is dispelled and revealed to be just another aspect of the Cosmic tapestry.

>>88626056
Doctor Strange is Cosmic though, or at least he has been since he met Eternity. Only difference is he tends to stay put on Earth.

>>88626221
>As far as I'm concerned "mystic" only applies to earthbound characters who tap into cosmic powers through entities that they just don't really understand.
Does that mean Spider-man is mystic cause of his Spider-sense and the totem shit?

>>88625385
No, the elder gods' literal origin is being spawned by the Earth's magical energies. Then they created the modern gods. Unless that has been retconned.

>>88626446
Didn't the totem shit got retconned in OMD?

>>88625838
Yes, all of it. There were obviously a lot of sci-fi themes, but they never even implied that the Asgardians were not gods that also had access to scientific miracles.

>>88626446
>Does that mean Spider-man is mystic cause of his totem shit
Yes.
Luckly, it isn't explored very often.
>>88626702
Sadly, no.

>>88626221
I think the question should be more along the lines of separating mystic cosmic stuff (Eternity, the Infinity Gems, the Phoenix) from more "hard" sci-fi cosmic (the Skrulls and Kree, Beta Ray Bill, the Negative Zone)
But of course even then you have things like Galactus that don't quite fit either field.

>>88625385
They're all Mythic, instead of either of those two that you suggested.

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>>88626118
>>88626221
Cosmic =/= Mystic, they're about one universe and many respectively. Hence why entities that represent the entirety of his home universe make appearances in Strange's comics. It's a purview as far above Cosmic as Cosmic is a above Earth, implying they're interchangeable is like implying Cosmic and Street-level are.

>>88626189
Mythological shit had played a part long before Simonson. Like everyone before him he'd pick and choose the balance form concept to concept.

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>>88626488
>No, the elder gods' literal origin is being spawned by the Earth's magical energies
Yeah.
aka Power Cosmic.
That's what I'm positing. Marvel Magic, by definition, is not native to 616.

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>>88626798
They never explicitly explained that they WERE Gods either until the Eternals Saga.
The specifics were left purposefully vague. And they'd always interact with ayy lmaos more than Dormammu et al.

>>88627233
I get that they're largely distinct but they cross over with the Cosmic stuff SO much more than would otherwise be expected... Mephisto was created as a Surfer baddie FFS.

>>88627627
It's a big universe, but at the same time everything is still connected. These distinctions are not hard and fast, it's all more like guidelines.

>>88627658
I know, it's just a bitch consolidating the origin of Gods & Demons with the wider metaphysical workings of the Marvel Universe. 50 years and only 2 writers have directly addressed it. Both vaguely.

>>88627779
Maybe you're just a punk bitch

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>>88627812
>:U

>>88627501
Magic is not the power cosmic, they are two distinct sources of power.

>>88625385
Neither. It's Marvel Mythic.

>>88627965
I already said that and they ignored me

>>88627946
It depends, like everything else, on who is writing. In This Man this Monster Kirby implied through Reed's Negative Zone experiments that all the big cosmic guys that warped around tapped into the same thing-Galactus, The Watcher, and anyone else on their level ultimately used the same stuff.

Kirby was big on "things are more similar than dissimilar" as a twist. The whole point of the first Inhumans arc was that fundamentally Inhumans and Humans were the same. Maximus' big gun couldn't tell them apart. This, like many other cool Kirby ideas, was never really followed up on.

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>>88627946
Yes. I'm in total agreement.
And Gods & Hell Lords aren't your typical Magic.
Once they've set-up shop, sure. There's now a pocket dimension to draw alien energy from. It's officially magic. But they originate on Earth, so those origins weren't "magical". or at least no more so than 616's Cosmic Abstracts.

>>88627989
I... I replied...
Lemme try again: yes, they're very much their own thing and don't neatly slot into either category. However, that's mostly because we know precious little about how they work. And what we DO know is vague enough that it might well fit under other classifications, given some assumptions.
tldr; autism, pls no bully, I want a goddamn No Prize Thread.

>>88628143
>I replied
oh shit yes you did
I think I might have brain problems, I even had a huge conversation with you.

>>88628037
>>88628143
I still think Earth-X did the best job so far in making everything fit. It's just so simple.

>>88627361
But those same entities also frequently cross paths with Thanos, Adam Warlock, Captain Marvel, etc; all squarely Cosmic characters.

I'm not saying they're interchangeable, but the further out you go the more the line blurs to the point that there ultimately just isn't much of a hard distinction like people tend to think.

>>88628188
The problem is that in trying to tie LITERALLY EVERYTHING together, Earth-X cheapened too many things. I love Earth-X, but I wouldn't want too much of it integrated into canon.

Not that that's stopping Marvel from constantly taking stuff from Earth-X and making it canon.

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>>88628188

>>88628214
What I'm saying is that the high-end Cosmic Abstracts are on the edge of the two, since they represent both the totality of the universe and one facet of the multiverse.
There's lots of characters that straddle the lines like that. Is Captain Marvel Earth or Cosmic? Is Spider-Man Street or Earth? Is Moon Knight Street or Mystic? etc..

>>88628259
>>88628264
I didn't like some stuff like the Watchers being the bitch-slaves of the Celestials but damn if it still isn't the most clear and well-articulated cosmology out there. I'd rather Galactus be a Celestial egg killer then deal with the Abraxas nonsense.

>>88628259
>Earth-X cheapened too many things
This.
It cucked magic right up. That shit made it so that it seriously could not exist in the same Mutliverse as every other Marvel story without seriously cheapening & undermining every other Marvel story.
Which is kind of a pity because I would've liked closure on what happened to Mar-Vell at the end of it all.
EWING PLS

>>88628259
Earth X is absolutely one of my favorite Marvel canons but yeah, I wouldn't want it to become THE holy bible of the MU. It would just wind up limiting things or worse still being totally ignored. Better it remain its own thing.

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>>88628382
...Wait have you JUST read Earth-X?
Because that shit was great, no arguments.
I'm mad about the sequels.

>>88628412
>Reed gearing up to safe his son
>Book fucking ends

JUST

>>88628412
Man, I don't even take 616 continuity seriously anymore, I can't imagine trying to make sense of multiversal continuity.

>>88628037
I always took that magic=science stuff as Reed, Tony et all being little butches about magical powers not sticking to his ideas about the world.
Magic is just science you don't yet understand?
Or science is just magic for which you've made up an excuse?

>>88628779
I've always taken it as magic is just science from other dimensions that have different laws of physics

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>>88628535
It's pretty simple: magic is energy siphoned from separate dimensions with different laws of physics.
The Earth-X sequels keep rolling with the "what if Gods are just ayy lmao science experiments" and Doesn't. Fucking. Stop. Mephisto's a shapeshifting caveman. Death's an old-ass alien. The entire Dark Dimension's just an alternate Earth that got buttfucked by an time-travelling Mephisto the shapeshifting caveman. Everything, fucking EVERYTHING through the myriad cosmos comes back to humans/Celestials of this one specific special snowflake OC donut steel reality the story's taking place in.

>>88628779
If it can be measured, it's a science. Maybe it's one with different laws & limits, but it has laws & limits all the same. Strange himself would admit this. Why'd you think he so good at it?

>>88628834
>>88628903
Is the Power Cosmic magic?

>>88628943
Power Cosmic is native to the known Universe of 616 and has been manipulated by in-universe scientists before, so not necessarily.
It just so happens to come from the closest tangible thing to God so is a little over most proles' heads.

>>88628442
>I'm mad about the sequels.
Yeah, it's the sequels that add all the bullshit. Everything involving Mephisto was just too fucking much.

>>88629195
But doesn't it exist in every universe?

>>88626702
Totem shit?

>>88629262
Every parallel Earth-like Universe, maybe. Especially if they have a Galactus.
Magic's drawn from decidedly non-Earth-like ones. Entirely different laws & limits.

>>88628860
Oh I remember, and that's a big reason why I didn't like the sequels. It's just that my power level has diminished to the point where I can't be arsed to give a shit anymore.

>>88629314
mystical spider bullshit

>>88626702
No. It was the entire basis to Yost's Scarlet Spider and Slott's Spider-verse.

>>88630178
...What's Yost done lately?
I just realized I've been confusing him with Soule all year.

>>88625385
they're aliens