Flop Flop Floppity Flop

>>88541008
ok

>33- BLACK PANTHER WORLD OF WAKANDA ($5)
>11/16 BP World of Wakanda - 57,073
>That’s so weak compared to Black Panther’s debut. So much for the dream of Black Panther as another new hot property capable of supporting several titles.

>36- THANOS
>11/16 Thanos# 1 - 54,768
>Another disapointing debut. It should already fall under 30K with its next issue. That’s Jeff Lemire and Mike Deodato! Imagine what it would have been if it was from unknown newcomers!

>47-244- CHAMPIONS
>11/16 Champions #2 - 49,733 (-85.2%)
>We now have a way much clearer idea of the real impact of this new launch. It should stay around ANAD Avengers numbers, to no one surprise. Issue #1 is back for reorders.

>63- AVENGERS 1.1
>11/16 Avengers 1.1 - 41,258
>OMG, another very weak debut, showing how much in disarray the Avengers franchise is. People are not even interested in good old origins Avengers stories, back to the day when not all of the Marvel universe had been part of an avenger team at one point in his life. Again, top creators, Mark Waid and Barry Kitson and one of the weakest debut so far, barely better than Great Lake Avengers! Nostalgia will not save Marvel, apparently.

>>88541071
>Avengers 1.1
>Amazing Spider-Man 22.1

stop this ASAP and give those books their own titles, it just a cheap trick to try to fool readers into buying books unrelated to the main title.

decimals numbers should only be used for fill in issues or crossovers.

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>>88541071
>That’s Jeff Lemire and Mike Deodato!

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>ASM selling barely over 50k
i guess Marvel really made up to that promise of making Iron man the new face of marvel, by crashing everything around him

>>88541008
>Could it be below “female” Thor next month?

lol

>>88541071

>Avengers 1.1

people thought that would sell??!!?

>>88541345
People thought that would sell?

>>88541205

i think avengers is a mini at least so... be happy it's not like Avengers 16.1, 18.1, etc etc

So what's the point of this thread? To circle jerk over Marvel's perceived failure and pretend like this hasn't happened before and assume that they'll basically stop printing comics next month or be sold to Warner Brothers/DC?

>>88541292
BENDIS FOUND A WAY!!!

alternatively making Spider-Man rich was a mistake.

>>88541254
Lemire was hot shit 3 years ago, but we all know X-Men has a way of exposing writers quickly and if you it fuck up on you'll be hounded out of Marvel fairly quickly.

>>88541292
Part of the problem was that Slott and co mishandled the Clone Conspiracy shipping. Slott (with his massive ego) decided to make CC the main book and ASM a side book. Surprise! Comic Book stores ordered more of ASM (because they thought it would be the main book). Slott has to BEG stores to order more CC issues and tell them it was the main book. The whole thing was confusing for people.

Slott should have just made ASM the main book (like Spiderverse).

>>88541427
>be sold to Warner Brothers/DC
Yes, please.

>>88541457
Lemire's indies are still good though.

>>88541292
> Makes him the face of marvel
> replaced him with black girl
how is that work?

>>88541008

>Flop Flop Floppity Flop

What did he mean by this?

>>88541512
It's a pun on floppy sales.

>>88541512
needed some babytalk bt "bomba" is copyrighted by neogaf already

>>88541292
>both the x-men and spider man were ruined in your lifetime
Oh boy.

>>88541483
Descender is hot garbage except for the art

I just know blackhammer is going to be run down by bullshit at some point

So how do we fix Marvel?

let's just not pay for anything

>>88541545

>pun

What did he mean by this?

>>88541695
But anon, we already don't.

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>>88541483
>>88541427
>comics are outsourced to DC/WB
>Marvel Studios reboots the DCEU

>>88541731
>Marvel Studios reboots the MCU
Fixed.

>>88541008

>10/16 Dr Strange Sorcerers Supreme #1 - >149,710

>11/16 Dr Strange Sorcerers Supreme #2 - >29,349 (-80.4%)

Ho-lee shit, what a drop.

>>88541634
its going to be real fun to see them scramble together whatevers left after the Cinematic universe bubble bursts

>>88541987
You'll probably be dead when that happens.

>>88541008
I stopped buying Marvel's stuff a few years ago. How many book relaunches are they up to, now?

>>88541731
I'd be fucking fine with this. Marvel can't make good comics and WB can't make good DC movies. Everybody wins if they outsource to the other.

>>88542334
>>88542229
What, no evanposting?

>>88542334
Might happen when the superhero trend starts dying.

>Avengers v Justice League: Galactus Apokolips!

>>88541008
>Mosaic and Great Lake Avengers are seemingly doing ok
Fucking what?

>>88542334
>the DCEU as a retarded, forgettable quipfest
No thanks.

>>88542392
Yeah, I'd much rather it be a pretentious laughing stock.
MARTHA!!!!!!

>>88542385
They replaced toilet paper with them so they're saving some bucks.

>>88542407
>hating HYPERCRISIS
Typical Disney shill.

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>>88541695
Retailers will get even more free copies of shit they didn't ask for.

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>>88542425
True.

>>88542385
Well, they're both good

>>88542509
and yet stores literally can't give them away >>88542461
>>88542498

>>88541008
I remember when DC branced from their main characters in their flagship titles. Suddenly the Justice League was made up of Vibe, Gypsy, Vixen, the Elongated Man, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Zantanna, Steel and Firestorm. Basically the CW'est cast you could throw together; safe and diverse. And it was fucking awful. Then to make up for it, they gave us the Extreme League. Justice League sales plummited and no one gave a shit about them for years until Grant Morrison came along and said, "Why the fuck aren't Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman not Leaguers?" and saved DC's ass.

I cannot wait to see how Marvel pulls their Avengers out of the dumpster fire they're building for their cinematic universe.

>>88542547
>JLI
>fucking awful
This bait is new.

Marvel Comic's are going to shit

>>88542605
I described the Detroit League.

>>88541851
damn, dat drop. Marvel inflating numbers again?

>>88541851
How the fuck did that happen? Was issue 1 just literally 24 pages of feces?

>>88542762
>>88542785
Issue #1 was included in Marvel's loot crate box thing.

>>88542547
That's sort of what Bendis did in 2004 when he was all like "why aren't Wolverine and Spider-Man Avengers?"

I don't know what they could do now though. Eventually they'll do a JLA-style "the big three are back!' relaunch but it won't be enough.

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>>88542461
Wow RACIST!

>>88541851
Javier Rodriguez deserves better than Hopeless Spider-Woman & a hopeless Dr Strange spin-off

Maybe he'll get Ultimates cubed next year.

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>>88541367
18.1 you say?

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>>88543061
Fuck you m00t this is the image I wanted

>>88542428
>>hating HYPERCRISIS

Whaa....

>>88542360
When it was realized he was just another SJW cuck his smugness lost some bite. Hard to use him mockingly when the subject of your mockery will remember he cried about Hillary losing.

>>88542360

>>88542407
Better than DANCE OFF BRO xD

So how long till Disney cleans house at Marvel
Will they even care as long as movies and merch and games still sell?

>>88542547
>>88542605
Detroit League was early or mid 80s, JLI was late 80s. And Extreme Justice was mid 90s. What the fuck are you people even talking about?

>>88541008
Are they finally gonna kick Slott off Spider-man? His shitty event isn't selling this time

>>88543439
nah word around the office is he gives good head

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>>88541427
>be sold to Warner Brothers/DC?
How about Pixar?

>>88542825
Except Wolverine and Spider-Man aren't Avengers material, anyway. It bumped sales, but it was retarded.

I'm surprised morrison of all writers had the common sense to get the big names all back to the League.

>>88542704
Detroit League wrapped up in 1986. Extreme Justice launched 1995. You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the International era enjoyed a good seven years of popularity and acclaim. You're also leaving out the fact that Extreme Justice was one of three JL books running at the time and that Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman had all been making appearances in the titles for years. Also, it was Mark Waid, not Grant Morrison, who "put the band back together," so to speak, with Midsummer's Nightmare, the lead-in to JLA.

>>88543332
I think they're equally bad but at opposite sides of the spectrum.

>>88541545
>>88541512
It sounds like the title of an irreverent new weekly series about comic books, from Dude from the Internet.

>>88544184
Comicsbeat is important, retailers read it

>>88541071
Black Panther mostly sold because of Coates' name being attached to it, and coming out just after Civil War came out in theaters.

>>88543927
Giffen wanted the big leaguers too but was told no because the reboot meant writers wanted Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal, and Flash to themselves to establish their new status quo. O'Neil was nice enough to let him have Batman even though he'd later backpedal on it with his "Batman is an urban legend" rule.

>>88543379
They'll care as much as they need it for Idea farming. CW was awful but it had huge numbers behind it so even normies knew there was a time when superheroes were fighting each other.

Marvel's ideas are all approaching not only shit but more importantly blandshit. You couldn't market CW2 without people going that's minority report. And call it out as the rip off it is.

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>>88542229
Nigga, the MCU is dying after Infinity War and you know it, maybe even sooner. The casual audience is growing tired of it, and we all know the MCU's target audience is casuals.

>>88541484
Hush nigga, we diversity now

>>88541457
>alternatively making Spider-Man rich was a mistake.
Making Peter Parker into Tony Stark was the fucking mistake, senpai.

People aren't buying Marvel comics in general anymore because it's a fucking mess.
Needs a serious overhaul.

>>88542407
"Martha" wasn't bad, people are just retarded and looking for memes.

>>88543653
>marvel comics pixar makeover
>marvel comics
>literally rdj's mcu iron man
this triggers me

>>88544295
57,000 for a b-lister spinoff book is an amazing debut. Even if it's going to hemorrhage half its readership by issue three it'll still be safe from cancellation, especially if Marvel has low expectations for it.

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>>88541851
>>88542762
>>88542785
Like >>88542822 said, it was included in a subscription box, specifically it was for Funko's Marvel Collectors Corps box.

Remember that these numbers were for preorders, so the most orders probably went into that box (or maybe even other subscription boxes).

>>88544717
idiots like you sound fucking retarded

>>88542825
Reunite the cartoon X-men team in a flagship book.

>>88548474
X-Men 92 ain't selling so hot

>>88548503
That's cause it's out of continuity. They even ignored events in the final episodes of the cartoon so there were people complaining about it.

>>88541008
>>Really?! This is supposed to be the relaunch of the big parent Avengers title and it can barely crack 80k?
To be fair, there was virtually no promotion for this book. Compared to fucking Champions.

Fun fact, this store I usually go to that sells comics and toys moved all the comics from the back of the store and to the front. The other big thing was that all the trades they couldn't sell were TREMENDOUSLY marked down. Like $3 each for $20, and $8 for $35. I talked to the guy behind the counter, and they were saying that they just weren't moving shit, so they're getting rid of it any way possible.

>>88548260
This fucking number padding Marvel's been pulling with LootCrate type trash is goddamn disgusting.

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>>88548599
>Compared to fucking Champions.

10/16 Champions #1 - 334,937 [+6,772]
11/16 Champions #2 - 49,733 (-85.2%)

By the way, in case anyone was wondering about the drop, I should point out that Champions #1 had like three variants included in three different subscription boxes. This was from Comic Block.

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>>88548722
This was from My Geek Box in November.

>>88548696
Shipping out free copies to pad the numbers is pretty ridiculous too

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>>88548737
And this was from Funko's Marvel Collector Corps box this month (the box was X-Men themed, which makes it funny that they're using Champions instead of an X-Men book, on the basis that Cyclops is in Champions, but they probably did it on Marvel's say-so)

>>88548722
>dat drop
it's actually frightening. this thread is scary.

Any guesses as to what might happen to the entire american comic industry in a few years? DC is seemingly doing okay, Marvel is just crazy and soulless, no idea about smaller publishers.

What's the problem here? Is it the market losing interest (Can it ever be gained back)? How much does this ahve to do with Marvel being at the top despite being retarded? Is the whole thing an infrastructural problem with diamond and etc? Is it a business model issue? Is it a problem with publishers not treating characters and creators with adequate respect and whatever?

I really don't want something I love to get fucked in every available orifice.

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>>88548861
If you saw the posts, the high numbers came from the various subscription boxes. They're a major factor.

Amazing Spider-Man #16 was included in Funko's box for August. Here's how sales compared:

06/16 Amazing Spider-Man#14 - 65,646 (+ 0.2%)
07/16 Amazing Spider-Man#15 - 93,582 [+5,588]
08/16 Amazing Spider-Man#16 - 185,342
08/16 Amazing Spider-Man#17 - 74,869

>>88548722
Will they ever not draw Miles in poses that scream, "pushy power bottom?"

>>88548861
Image is sitting good with TWD and Saga, but is still looking for their next big thing. Their business model and small chunk of the market share puts them in a pretty stable spot, plus they're a dumping ground for Hollywood to second chance on passed over scripts and pitches. DC's market share has been fairly unstable the past few years, but they usually keep it between 25-35%. IDW and Dynamite just run with whatever licenses they can pick up on the cheap. I'm not sure about Dark Horse since its only big name titles are all Mignolaverse.

>>88548737
Jesus Christ that Ms. Marvel

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>>88549006
Other comics that had Funko box variants this year were Deadpool #1, Black Panther #1 Civil War II #1 (these were books that you would've just assumed got high sales based on the variants and hype behind them).

But here's Guardians of Infinity, which also had a Funko variant:

92- GUARDIANS OF INFINITY($5)

12/15 Guardians of Infinity #1 - 121,407
01/16 Guardians of Infinity #2 - 27,112 (-77.7%)
02/16 Guardians of Infinity #3 - 22,309 (-17.7%)

As you can see the subscription boxes really do influence things.

>>88548861
Marvel started making movies.

That's really about it. The movies came and made them BANK and they struggled to make their universe more in line with the movies. But the movies are their own thing, and aren't 60+ years of previous continuity. So they drag and scrape and force the comics to fit the movies, but it feels awkward and forced. So they try mixing things up, changing characters around. But it still feels awkward. So they try a clean, fresh reboot, but it's not really a reboot, it's still knee-deep in continuity and crossovers. The newcomer who wants to see Captain America is going to look at the issue on the shelf and wonder why Falcon's on the cover. And why is Cap saying "Hail Hydra"? Wait, there are two Thors? And Bruce Banner is dead? Then who's the Hulk? I thought Spider-Man was a photographer, why is he rich? Who's Miles? Wait, why are the X-Men kids? Hold on, they're from the past now? I thought Magneto was a villain.

It's always been a mess, it's always been hard to "get into comics". But never like this. I can't ever remember it being this impassable for new fans. I don't care that the mantle's being passed to new characters. The trouble is that it's happening to EVERYONE. They've created such a tangled web of continuity that they're cutting off any chance of new readers jumping in. If they wanted new readers to come in because of the movies, they should've been pushing some simple events that are easy to pick up and follow. Instead, we have even long-time comic fans dropping out because they can't keep up with everything.

>>88549006
>>88549116
I see, but is that a sustainable business model? I figure being dependent on being a part of a bundle (which people might not get for comics in the first place) isn't a very strong system.

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>>88549116
Two other comics that got Funko variants: Invincible Iron Man #1 and Secret Wars #1. Those you would probably also have expected to have high sales based on variants/hype.

But another one is Ant-Man #5:

01/15 Ant-Man #1 – 73,370
02/15 Ant-Man #2 – 40,192 (-45.2%)
03/15 Ant-Man #3 – 37,139 (- 7.6%)
04/15 Ant-Man #4 – 31,637 (-14.8%)
05/15 Ant-Man #5 – 83,095 (+162.7%)

>>88549169
Probably not. And it's not just Marvel using the boxes. I know Funko has one for DC as well. And I do remember LootCrate had a variant for one issue of Snyder/Capullo's Batman.

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>>88549219
Lastly there was another Marvel comic from Funko's Collector Corps box, Guardians Team-Up #1. It had this cover (because it was packaged with the Age of Ultron-themed box)

03/15 Guardians Team-up #1 - 155,388
03/15 Guardians Team-up #2 - 38,390 (-75.3%)
03/15 Guardians Team-up #3 - 40,637 (+ 5.9%) B. Vortex
04/15 Guardians Team-up #4 - 28,877 (-28.9%)
05/15 Guardians Team-Up #5 - 25,093 (-13.1%)

>>88549006
>>88548791
>>88548260
God. Those variant covers are fucking horrid.

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>>88549271
Okay I'm looking into Legion of Collectors (Funko's DC box) The Batman V Superman one had a copy of Batman/Superman #5... from 2013, three years before the box was out.

06/2013: Batman/Superman #1 — 143,457 [151,054]
07/2013: Batman/Superman #2 — 92,558 (-33.1%) [101,104]
08/2013: Batman/Superman #3 — 87,337 (-13.6%)
09/2013: #3.1: Doomsday — 92,290 (+10.4%) [96,453]
10/2013: Batman/Superman #4 — 82,990 (-14.0%)
11/2013: Batman/Superman #5 — 77,198 (- 7.0%)
12/2013: Batman/Superman #6 — 68,857 (-10.8%)

So I guess this was a case where they just reprinted an old issue so it didn't count toward the original sales.

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>>88549365
This was a reprint of Flash #123 (Flash of Two Worlds), so I don't think that even made it on the sales charts.

>>88549158
This is why DC is doing so well right now. Because they're keeping things familiar and for a lot of people, that works.
Someone who just watched and enjoyed Suicide Squad can go into a comic shop and pick up Suicide Squad, and it has characters they'd associate with it. Or when Justice League comes out, readers can go from there to the comic shop, pick up Justice League, and not be confused

Contrast this with Marvel. If someone were to watch an Iron Man movie and go into the comic shop and pick up an Iron Man comic, they'd be confused because who they think is Iron Man isn't in the comic called Iron Man. This is the kind of shit that makes Marvel so impassable to casuals right now.

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>>88549410
This reprinted Suicide Squad #1.... The Ostrander version. I mean it's a great comic but it's weird to put Harley on the cover. This also didn't show up on any sales charts from what I can tell.

>>88549428
I think it really depends on the story in question. Someone who just watched an Iron Man movie and went into the comic shop would have an easier time with Riri(aside from Stark AI hologram and Tony being dead because of CW2 delays), since she's being mentored by Tony in a fashion, as opposed to Iron Doom.

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>>88549457
This was a reprint of Batgirl #35.... which was out two years ago.

>>88549538
>Someone who just watched an Iron Man movie and went into the comic shop would have an easier time with Riri
That's a stretch, anon. You have a black female piloting the iron suit in a book titled Iron Man. That's pretty confusing already.

>>88549575
Plus while Tony's in the book, he's an AI, so the reader will wonder "Well where the fuck is Tony?"

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>>88549562
And this was a reprint from Batman #23.2 from three years ago as well.

In both cases I don't think they printed it with intention to put in a subscription box, since Funko's DC box didn't start until this year.

So I guess (so far) DC just goes and reprints older issues, but the only exception I can think of is the Loot Crate Batman issue, which I'll go look up...

>>88549428
It makes no fucking sense. Literally everything BUT the comics themselves are pulled from the movies. Hell, I'm wearing a t-shirt right now that has an ensemble of Marvel characters in a 70's-era style. And you know who the ensemble is? Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Widow, Panther, Hawkeye, and Spidey. Hey how about that, all characters that have headlined a movie in the past two years.

And I don't blame them. The movies made them a zillion dollars, it's smart business to push all their marketing to reflect it. That's how you sell toys and backpacks and shit. But you aren't going to do that to your comics? The thing that's kept you afloat all this time? I would've fully fucking embraced it if they simplified things. A soft reboot, bring it on. Reboot Avengers at issue 1 with Cap, Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, and Thor. It would've been kind of nice to just have a few years of just straightforward superhero comics.

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>>88549666
Found it, it was Batman #36 that had a variant included with LootCrate in December 2014, so it was still relatively new.

Here's sales on #36 compared with the other issues:

07/2014: Batman #33 -- 117,996 (- 9.3%)
08/2014: Batman #34 -- 112,186 (- 4.9%)
09/2014: Futures End #1 -- 142,980 (+ 27.4%)
10/2014: Batman #35 -- 118,860 (- 16.9%)
11/2014: Batman #36 -- 115,183 (- 3.1%)
12/2014: Batman #37 -- 113,255 (- 1.7%)
01/2015: Batman #38 -- 110,232 (- 2.7%)

Strangely it didn't really affect anything. Which is pretty weird considering it worked for Boom and the first issue of the Big Trouble in Little China/Escape From New York crossover.

>>88549728
Exactly. Fuck, DC's doing what Marvel SHOULD be doing. A soft reboot/reset with a combination of familiar faces and new ones. Stuff like Superman, Batman, Flash, etc has the characters people expect to see in them, but stuff like Green Lanterns has lesser known characters but it's still familiar and reader friendly enough so someone like me, who didn't know of these characters beforehand and barely read any Green Lantern prior, can jump in with little to no problems. And a lot of the comics are straightforward superhero stuff like you're asking for. Superman's been bringing in obscure stuff from time to time sure, but it's still Superman saving the day. Batman still has him protect Gotham. Even the newer stuff like New Super Man is still comfortable, familiar, and easy to jump into.

Marvel needs a Rebirth. Honestly as much as it pains me to say this, movie synergy could be useful. Use it as a jumping on point for casuals and longtime fans alike. Make things simple. Hell, even DC is doing events better. Stuff like IvX is a bit inaccessible because it requires prior knowledge of shit the average casual wouldn't know about. Something like Suicide Squad vs Justice League is easy to understand. Plus they're more familiar than Inhumans

>>88549813
I think the real thing to take away from this is that if you're going to spin off new series from events, don't make them so intimately tied in with the event or prior continuity that a new reader will have to google shit.

Take Grayson, by all rights it should have been a clusterfuck for new readers, continuity heavy event spinoff with a massive change in direction for the character. But in practice everything you needed to know coming into series is "Batman's former sidekick got his identity exposed and is now working as a double agent for a James Bond-esque spy agency."

>>88541483
>Lemire's indies are still good though.
Agreed. I wish he'd step away from capeshit and go back to working on personal projects.

>>88549813
>Honestly as much as it pains me to say this, movie synergy could be useful.
Unfortunately, not such a great idea for Doctor Strange. They really need an editor who can find a proper middle ground with the synergy.

>>88549795
IIRC the loot crate copies weren't counted for some reason

>>88541292
>crashing everything around him
with no survivors!

>>88549966
I wish he just put more effort in on his capeshit, look I love his indie work too but if he's going to write capeshit write good capeshit.

>>88549980
I haven't been reading Dr. Strange, how is it doing that?
>>88549956
>I think the real thing to take away from this is that if you're going to spin off new series from events, don't make them so intimately tied in with the event or prior continuity that a new reader will have to google shit.
Exactly. Hell, the example you gave, Grayson, was easy to get into for me, despite me not being a Batman fan.
The key here is accessibility. And a lot of Marvel's stuff just isn't accessible. The only reason I'm able to read half of what I do right now is because of /co/ being informed about the comics and continuity. And even still, I can barely read X-men comics because they're so fucking entrenched in lore and continuity that I'd have to read from the very beginning to really get it, and frankly that bothers e. I get that part of the appeal of the X-men is the massive lore, but I just can't get into it. Something like an X-men 92, which had really simple easy to get into stories was a good idea, but the problem was it was out of continuity.

I don't want to see things watered down, I just want Marvel to realize that by focusing on diversity, you're losing your audience. The effort you put into diversity could be put into making the books accessible and easy to get into. You literally have the perfect reason to do this, and they don't fucking do it.

>>88549980
What Strange really needs is a consistent editorial vision for how they want to portray the character and the magic side of the MU in general.

>>88549813
What marvel needs is to stop this half assing. Either go back to old characters or say fuck it. Retire everyone new start fresh. Reference the character from time to time but make the new ones stand out on their own. They'll never do it because it's just easy to fuck off reusing the old characters over and over with. But this passing on the mantle bullshit, is just overdone to the point of it killing the brand even harder than just making new characters.

>>88541634
X men have been ruined in both my father and my lifetime.

>>88550175
Agreed. It's getting ridiculous at this point. I'm fine with legacy characters (As a Titans fan it's a requirement), but when everyone is replaced by a younger "hipper" version it's fucking ridiculous, and when very few of them make an effort to be interesting or compelling in their own right, it comes off as lazy bandwagoning off a pre-established name. If you wanna make new diverse characters, make new diverse characters. Don't just change someone's skin and claim diversity. It's making the universe unrecognizable. I think they should go back to the old characters. Have Cap be Cap again, but don't get rid of Sam, have him be Falcon. Have Thor be Thor again, or Iron Man be Iron Man again. Make it familiar. Make it accessible. That's all I ask. That's what it needs. That's why DC is kicking Marvel's ass, because it's doing it right. It has legacies, but it still has familiar faces. It has new characters, but they're recognizable in their own ways and stand out.

>>88549813
>Something like Suicide Squad vs Justice League is easy to understand
Also, and while I'm still not super thrilled about """"hero"""" vs. hero, it's being billed as a ruse sets them against each other and there will be a team-up.

I'm not reading either title, but from an outsider looking in, it looks moderately appealing for that aspect alone.

Also, will JLA be good? I don't think I've ever read anything by Orlando.

>>88550066
I really think Marvel should release an X-book that is devoted to nothing but their massive continuity. Something like a travelogue with a protagonist trying to grasp everything as a reader insert. It'd also give them a good chance to quietly retcon some stuff that no one wants to touch.

The diversity isn't an issue itself just the way they're going about. Take Riri Williams. "Teenage girl builds powered armor and fights criminals, gets noticed by Tony Stark who starts mentoring her," is a simple, accessible concept for a book. "Teenage girl builds powered armor and fights criminals, gets noticed by Tony Stark who starts mentoring her through an AI hologram of himself because he's dead due to events that haven't yet happened in a book that isn't finished," is a terrible thing to start a book with. Now compare that to Kamala Khan's event based background.

>>88548376

Not him but the MCU is done when RDJ leaves. They were banking on Doctor Strange being the next big hero to carry the franchise but it had a worse box office than 2 other superhero movies this year which didnt even open in China.

>>88550175
The problem is they've devalued so much over the last decade and a half. Even though Civil War was bad it was exciting partly because there hadn't been too many major hero vs hero conflicts for a few years. Within the last five years there was Schism, AvX, Civil War II and now IvX.

And remember this, from back when Human Torch and Ultimate Peter died?

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/02/11/marvel-were-going-to-kill-a-character-every-quarter/

>From the ComicsPro retailer summit, David Gabriel, Senior Vice President of Sales at Marvel Comics has announced that as a result of the Fantastic Four sales and media coverage, Marvel are going to kill a main character every quarter.

>He also added “this is not a joke”.

>UPDATE: Gabriel did however specify that these storylines are NOT about killing characters. What’s key is what comes AFTER the deaths. For example, after the Human Torch death, Spidey joined the team and the concept of “FF” got an entirely new focus as Future Foundation.

>Following that concept, he also claims that the new post-“Death of Spider-Man” storyline will result in the biggest media exposure Marvel’s ever had. He didn’t mention what it is, but he stated to the audience that this vague revelation is “confidential and not to be tweeted.”

Look at what's happened since then. In fact look what happened with Civil War II. Banner died and no one cared other than "Bendis wrote a goddamn stupid scene with Hawkeye out of character, and why would Banner not be able to survive that?" Ultimate Spider-Man got a boost when Peter died and Miles got introduced, and Fantastic Four got a boost when Johnny died and the team changed to Future Foundation. But they've killed off so many characters after that that no one really gives a fuck what happens or what happens after.

>>88550272
>I don't think I've ever read anything by Orlando.

I liked his Midnighter and Apollo comic.

>>88549053
Forget Khamala, apparently Cho has turned into Yoda

>>88541008
>This is supposed to be the relaunch of the big parent Avengers title and it can barely crack 80k?

At $5 I'm surprised it did that well.

>>88541008
I think part of the problem is event fatigue. Marvel doesn't ever settle it's status quo long enough for readers to get comfortable.

This feels like the umpteenth Marvel Now relaunch.

>>88550260
I also think a big problem with the current batch of legacy characters, aside from most of them being badly written, is that there's no real "passing the torch". We all know that sooner or later Thor will become Worthy again, Cap will stop being a Nazi and get his old Shield back, Tony will be alive again etc. And their replacements will either go back to their old roles or fade away.

>>88550550
Is Hawkeye the only Legacy that has "worked"?

BuckyCap was extremely good, mind, but it couldn't last.

>>88550066
>I haven't been reading Dr. Strange, how is it doing that?
Not sure if you know how much they nerfed magic use overall for the movie. Well, the current run of Dr Strange started with magic on the whole world being destroyed. So now he's sort of starting to rewrite magic from zero, and relies a whole lot on weapons and just his astral form. I'm not sure if this affected most of his extradimensional enemies as much, though.

>And even still, I can barely read X-men comics because they're so fucking entrenched in lore and continuity that I'd have to read from the very beginning to really get it
Back in the day, they'd just point to which issue something happened, or had enough exposition about it. I remember even back then there being tons of continuity, but you could just roll with it when you jumped in.

>>88550413
Maybe sales were artificially inflated as well? Or store owners actually expected sales better than they were?

>>88550649
>Is Hawkeye the only Legacy that has "worked"?
Has it, now?

>>88550413
$5

FIVE DOLLARS

WHO PAYS FIVE DOLLARS FOR A SINGLE FUCKING COMIC BOOK

>>88550649
I wasn't even aware Hawkeye was a legacy.
Or are you talking about Kate? Because if so, she may be running the solo but Clint's still the one on screen in Madison Square for shooting The Hulk

>>88550668
I mean I think so?
>>88550674
>I wasn't even aware Hawkeye was a legacy.
Really? Hawkeye died and she started cosplaying as him.

>>88550550
I don't even know if it's the temporariness of the legacy characters as much as the SHOCKING NEW STATUS QUO! THIS AIN'T YOUR DADDIES THOR! Ridiculous hype these things get, and the pandering while it does hype initial sales, doesn't do all that much in the long run.

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>>88541008
>Did I say last month that “clone” was a magic sales word for Spider-Man titles?
Why on earth would anyone read Clone Saga 3?

>>88550656
Man, your post reminded me, what ever DID happen to those little reminders in issues? The ones that told you that this happened in that issue? Those are helpful.

>>88550758
It would require somebody to do actual background checks and all the editors are trying to drink themselves to death

>>88550749
Wait, there was a clone saga 2?

>>88550674
Clint died during disassembled, so the Hawkeye name got used by Kate during Young Avengers.

>>88550793
1970's Clone Saga is Clone Saga 1
1990's Clone Saga is Clone Saga 2

>>88550758
First off, this >>88550789
Then, there's all the damned relaunches, so who can keep track of which frickin' issue of which frickin' volume on which frickin' year something happened?!

>>88550846
Marvel just really craves that #1 issue sales spike, only finally customers have caught on to the ploy.

>>88550758
I was under the assumption that they still did them. Do they not anymore?

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>>88550649
>Is Hawkeye the only Legacy that has "worked"?

>>88551423
>Carol
>working

W E W
E
W

>>88551423
Carol a fucking shit. I'd rather Kamala became the new Captain Marvel than continuing on with yaas queen.

>>88550649
Could Venom be considered a legacy?

>>88551477
Yeah, but that's the sameissue as Tony in the armor, or Thor's Hammer etc.

>>88551118
I think I caught one or two of those in recent history, not sure. And if I recall, pointing to recently released trades.

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>>88551466
*sigh* I guess Mania will have to be the new Ms. Marvel.

>>88551477
Flash Venom was a great legacy until Bendis sent it to space.

>>88551486
But a lot of people actually like Flash Venom, unlike FemThor and Riri.

>>88551598
>unlike FemThor
I hate to admit it, but I had heard FemThor sells, I think?

>>88551598
That doesn't change the scenario.

>>88551625
FemThor sells about 40k.

>>88548503
>>88548529
I tried to get into that shit cuz I liked the cartoon but they hamfisted all of the totally-not-convergence BS into it to try to rope you into reading other comics. Dropped it after 1 issue.

>>88550175
Like with 90's Ghost Rider?

Marvel already had one reboot - Heroes Reborn. It was so bad they retconned it and never mentioned it.

>>88543379
even if they clean house I doubt the higher up writers like Bendis and Slott will get the boot.

>>88552283
>It was so bad they retconned it and never mentioned it
You realize it was brought up a few years ago, with... Onslaught Returns or something like that, right?

Also, I'm not sure if that was supposed to stick. The X-Men were still around in regular Marvel, along with most secondary characters. Same with the Cosmic ones, if I recall.

>>88541008
Yeah, if it was Mark Waid that did The Flash and not WOKE TEENS USE TUMBLR Mark Waid.

>>88550036
His good capeshit is with Valiant and whatever he has to spare with Moon Knight which leaves very little for Old Man Logan.

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"rebirth"

>>88552455
>copies shipped
how many were free?

Also how asshurt do you have to be to shitpost about Rebirth in a thread full of actual discussion about how to improve the creative state of Marvel

>>88552455
WTF is Civil War II really selling this well?!
Also LOL, Renew Your Vows is running circles around anything else Spider-Man apparently

>>88552506
RYV #2 fell off a fuckin cliff bro, I'm sorry

>>88552519
Aw. Totally worth the chuckle, though.

>>88552455
>all these #1 at 4.99
How can you defend that?

>>88552506
>WTF is Civil War II really selling this well?!

Kinda? The main book sort of sells well (though not as well as Marvel really wants it to) but it might've harmed sales on the tie-in books.

>>88548791
He appears in #1 on only one panel, right? Like new Wasp and ReeRee.

>>88549116
>GUARDIANS OF INFINITY
That was Abnett's book, right? With turban guy with metal hands?

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>Marvel will die in your lifetime

>>88552650
You mean their 616 universe, the comics.

There'll be plenty of movies

>>88552650
>Marvel will die in Stan Lee's lifetime
FTFY

>>88552678
That's because he's going to devour every last soul that works at Marvel.

People are sick of Marvel's bullshit. What a surprise.

>>88552650
And nothing of value will have been lost.

>>88552732
Objectively WRONG! If he were feeding on the current Marvel employees and owners, he might actually save the comics.

But I've seen the theory that he feeds on talents, so I guess that ain't happening.

>>88541008
you know the top selling title of the month, Batman, double shipped and lost 5,000 sales between #10 and #11, right? couldn't even crack 130k sales, it's slumping back towards 100k where it usually resides, because that's what happens

but no no continue your amateurish hatchet jobs and try to publicize them on /co/, one of the few places where people can be found who actually understand how the comics market performs

there are no new readers

there are never new readers

DC is failing because its readers grew old and began dying off, Marvel's will follow within a decade or so

this is the slow end of all comic books

>>88552786
So what if DC sucks too? That's not what this thread is about.
Or are you trying to tell us that it's ok for Marlel to do bad just because DC does no better?
This is a Marlel hating thread, either hate Marlel or go make your DC hate thread elsewhere.

>>88541292
The annual sold 52k, the regular title sold 63k, ASM: Renew Your Vows #1 sold 96k.

Trust me, nobody's losing sleep over ASM but you. Why can't you stop thinking about Slott? Oh, if only he'd look your way... but he'd never notice a dowdy anon like yourself, with your frumpy dresses and your greasy hair. Guess it's back to jacking off over Korean instruction manuals for you.

The only thing that will 'save' Marvel is completely Disneyfying the line. I expect that within 10 years.

>>88552814
i think i just stepped on someones feefees

>>88552839
>Disney outsources Marvel to Italian creators
>quality goes through the roof sales not so sure

>>88541008
Okay so anyone have Deadpool Month sales

>>88553564
Which month was that?
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html

>>88543439
Slott's shitty event that he's been trying to do for like 5 years now and repeatedly told to fuck off by Wacker.

Soon as Wacker leaves and Nick Lowe comes in, Slott bullies the new guy into doing his event. Sure it enough, it sells like shit.

Straight up pottery.

>>88553667
January 2016 (not him)

>>88549956
true. I jumped into Grayson for Dick, even if I knew, and still know shit about DC continuity.

>>88549728
>comics
>keeping Marvel afloat all this time

Licensing/merchandise is what makes the most money. Not comic sales.

>>88541634
The idea of spider-man is not ruined in my mind. It's just sad seeing them fail to cultivate an image of spider-man akin to my internalized version of the character.

>>88553764
Wait, didn't Lowe come in at the time Superior was ending? No wonder Slott's run seemed to take a major nosedive with the relaunch.

>>88545705
>Needs a serious overhaul.
Wasn't the whole Marvel NOW! about doing exactly that?

>>88558730
that's hilarious if so, because it did the opposite as far as I can tell

>>88558730
Probably.

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>>88541008
>the best selling capeshit gets 100k in an entire month, if they're lucky