Tragic Two Face vs. Crazy Two Face

I don't get why all these people love the old, crazier Two-Face so much more. He's so much less interesting! I liked what they did with Dent in the Dark Knight. Just wish they hadn't killed him off so quick.

Remember One-Face?

>>87707967
>newfag detected
The problem with the Tragic Two-Face is the same problem that Mr. Freeze has

Mr. Freeze is a terrific tragic villain. I'm talking about the version from Batman: TAS, by the way, not the original one that robs banks from ice cream trucks. The dead wife thing they added was a stroke of genius. The problem with this character, though, is that he's only good for one story. After the evil employer is in jail, there's no one left to enact vengeance on: Mr. Freeze has no motivation to be a villain. That last shot of him crying in his cell, his story ends there. He has no reason to go on, and no way to escape, since he can't survive outside of a sub-zero environment.

But they keep bringing him back. And every time they do, it's more retarded. He somehow gets out of his refrigerated cell, making Arkham officially the shittiest prison of all time. Then it turns out he's just a head in a jar on top of a robot body. Now, in more recent comics, they've retconned it so that the dead wife was never even real: he's just insane. It gets worse and worse, the tragedy is gone, now he's just an asshole.

The tragic version of Two-Face similarly does not fare well after multiple stories. Tragic Harvey Dent is interesting; Tragic Two-Face is not. There's nothing sympathetic about the character after his third bank robbery.

> I wish they hadn't killed him off so quick
Except they had to, because after he's Two Face there's nothing left for him to do. After he turns his back on everything he was, nobody cares anymore. It's like Macbeth if Macduff never showed up. He's just a backstabbing, blithering idiot. The crazy version is at least halfway consistent. And if you actually remember to use the good side of the coin (as not a single fucking writer has done recently) he becomes interesting again: one remembers why he became a reoccurring character in the first place

>>87708366
this

>>87708366
What do you mean by "using the good side of the coin?" What are the modern writers getting wrong?

>>87707781
There should be an alternate timeline where Harvey stays a lawyer even after becoming Two-Face, but ruthlessly defends the criminals and villains of Gotham, getting them off or reduced sentences.

>>87708442
In the old comics, he would actually do good things if the "good" side came up. Example: he's robbing a convenience store, flips the coin halfway through, and comes up "good heads": at which point he completely changes his demeanor, gives the little old lady at the register a wad of benjamins and tells her to buy her kids some new clothes.

That's what made him scary. He could "flip at any moment." First he's smiling and shaking your hand, then the coin flips and he's cutting open your throat with a broken piece of glass. Then he "flips" again and gives your best friend enough money to go through college, tips his hat and leaves. You really didn't know what he'd do next; or at least you did know but you didn't know WHEN he'd finally turn around. There could be really good tension in the old stories with that, but I personally haven't seen this in years.

>>87708442
Not that anon, but in the original Golden Age appearances of Two-Face, there were just as many times when he'd flip his coin and it'd come up heads, so he'd decide to donate all the money he just stole to charity, or feed the kids at the orphanage or whatever. I think that would be an interesting angle to see return - Snyder's Two-Face is super-influential cuz he's got dirt on everyone, but what if Gothamites were inclined to have mixed feelings about the ex-DA because half the time, he was actually improving their communities with his ill-gotten gain?

>>87708545
That quirk would create interesting moments in the story but I don't how old two face has more potential for developing as a character than new face

File: detective066-14.jpg (612KB, 1144x1592px) Image search: [Google]

612KB, 1144x1592px

>>87708647
There really isn't much of a difference between classic Two-Face and modern Two-Face - he was always meant to be a tragic figure.

File: detective comics 066-05.jpg (409KB, 930x1250px) Image search: [Google]

409KB, 930x1250px

>>87708442
Ever read the original Two-Face story? A key thing that a lot of writers forget is that the unscarred side compels him to do good. Harlan Ellison actually remembered this when he wrote up the script for 1966 Batman (which never got made but got adapted into a comic). Denny O'Neil remembered it in that one Two-Face story he did with Neal Adams.

>>87707781
Why not tragically crazy Two Face?

File: 13CABD2C-F01C-4AF1-814E-C422AA73C0A0-210-0000000847AC5ED6_tmp.jpg (156KB, 517x800px) Image search: [Google]

156KB, 517x800px

>>87708545
He did it in NML

>>87708545

They stopped doing this? The fuck.

Makes me wish they'd kept him reformed back after OYL.

>>87710929
They haven't stopped it completely, but it's very rare nowadays. Most writers seem unaware of this option even existing.

>>87708748
Huh. Looks like I misremembed the "little old lady" scene I described in >>87708545. Thanks for posting this.

>>87710929
I mean if he's reformed then he can't do the bad things, that's where the tension comes from. He does good or bad with a coin flip.

Turn him into a kind of Judge Dredd anti-hero and use the coin flip for good cop/bad cop dynamics.

>>87708499
That's a really good idea.

If you're ever bored and want to read more about Two-Face than you ever thought you would from probably his biggest fan, this guy's blog
http://about-faces.livejournal.com/
is pretty fucking interesting. Put 1580.html at the end of that to go to his best article about Eye of the Beholder.

>>87707781
There's nothing inherently wrong with tragic Two-Face like there is with Nora. Unlike anti-villain Freeze, Tragic Two-Face is still 100% a villain it's just he tries not to be. He's troubled and hurting but at the end of the day he's still breaking the law, robbing banks, and killing people. Being upset with what you've done doesn't excuse your actions. Do we say serial killers who repented should suddenly be considered good guys who gave into mental illness? No.
There's also no reason the good side of the coin can't work with a tragic Dent so I don't even get why we're discussing it other than it's also been mostly forgotten. Anyways, with anti-villain Freeze the problem is there isn't many places he can go and you don't want him to stoop too low. A troubled Two-Face though can sink to the bottoms of depravity so long as he momentarily fights it before giving in to a coin flip. Have him try to blame the coin flip itself with a tear in his eye I dunno.
Anyone ever know an alcoholic or addict? Because of their compulsions they steal and fight and tear families apart. "Deep down" they're trying to fight their vice but when the drugs come calling they still give in. Even when they're cured, most of them end up relapsing at least one or two times. Being on drugs doesn't excuse their actions and neither does some weirder compulsion that drives Two-Face to his misdeeds. He can even be "cured" but give in to old habits due to major misfortune or the constant reminding of his other half. There's a difference between sympathy for a broken man and excusing him is my point.

>>87714542
Is there a good place to read Eye of the Beholder for free online? All the websites I keep finding look like they're gonna infect my computer

>>87714983
The problem with tragic Two-Face is coming up with more motivations for crimes, and keeping those compelling. If Two-Face isn't a genuine asshole, then he's not going to put forth the effort to make elaborate absurd schemes for Batman to foil. The cure plot is one place you can go, but it's also an old and tired one that's become repetitive.

>>87715217
I disagree. What I was trying to say at least is he starts to take a nose dive at that first flip or he just can't stop himself while going through with half-baked (heh) plans once he's begun. I DO get what you're saying though but comics don't usually show the villain's planning stages. Maybe the acquiring of parts but due to the fragmented storytelling within comics I think you can get away with quite a convincing self-loathing Dent. Fuck, writers can even have Batman tell him off for trying to excuse himself because he must have done some planning to begin his schemes. To be honest though, I think Bat's main rogue galleries are almost all worn and repetitive by now. He has such a good main villain set people seem to forget about all his B-listers and we get stuck with nothing except Joker, Penguin, and maybe a Riddler arc or something. To be fair, every good new villain that's written is usually either killed off or given too much closure in the creator's run.

>>87715465
Which villain would you personally like to see more of?

>>87715110
I can give you the download, at least
https://www.dropbox.com/s/096x5sp64sd9x5h/Batman%20Annual%20Vol.1961%20%2314%20%28December%2C%201990%29.cbz?dl=0

>>87708366
They should put Freeze on the Suicide Squad and have Waller use Nora as her way of forcing Victor to cooperate.

>>87715531
Hugo Strange, Firefly, Mad Hatter, Man-Bat (even in his more benevolent position), Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Ragdoll, Egghead are all good villains that can at least support short stories but don't get used unless it's as a group thing because they can't support BIG EPICS. Batman's current inability to tell small detective stories is a huge flaw.

>>87715544
thanks

>>87715958
agreed on the "big epics" thing.

You really like Scarecrow, though? He is far and away my least favorite villain.

I don't mean that as an attack, btw. Why do you think he's good?

>>87716000
I think he's got a good gimmick as a villainous psychiatrist, he's got a decent personality as a pathetic vindictive asshole, and a recognizable design. I'm not gonna say he's great because he really isn't, but he shouldn't be that hard to write some fun stories with. He's a fun little mix of Hugo Strange and Mad Hatter.

File: every scarecrow encounter.png (63KB, 1098x427px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 1098x427px

>>87716062
maybe he does have potential. I just wish all his stories didn't end in the exact same way. Also, his design is kind of shit. I mean it's ok, but in the context of being "the master of fear" it's not at all scary next to some of batman's other villains.

>>87716245
I like his design because it's not really that scary. Really what I like about the Scarecrow is that he's kind of a pathetic loser who tries to drag people down to his level. The stories I've enjoyed (although I wouldn't totally call them good) are ones where Scarecrow's defeat come from him being really lame in person. Things like him trying to make a Scarequeen and getting beaten up by a teenage girl, or trying to turn a church against itself and getting thrown out with the rats, the story where he starts becoming "scarier than the Joker" by knifing people sucks so hard but him getting stuck by his own trap is fitting. I fully admit his stories suck and are super lazy, but I put that on the writers for the last three decades or so only going with Scarecrow when they're feeling like giving their Z-game that month.

>>87708366
No you're wrong. That just means the writers have to follow up with more events and keep a consistent continuity rather than hit a reset button back to the original tragedy. You could easily have him be both tragic and a huge egomaniac. He could be a like a Doctor Doom figure with his dead mom; he has an admirable code of honor that separates him from the more animalistic villains but he's still evil and commits crimes. As far as escaping his cell goes, he must be written to be pretty smart to build all that tech and also go against Batman, so that's not much of a stretch.

But really tho comic book writers are hacks and editorials are in a continuous state of throwing shit at walls to see what sticks rather than working together to form an artistic vision.

>>87716532
That's an entirely new motivation for Freeze that's neither the original nor the tragic interpretation. Mr. Freeze as a tragic villain doesn't work because his crimes have a single reason, and that reason can be easily taken care of: he's certainly capable, but why would he keep doing it?

A version of Two-Face that I devised that I rather like is that of a more ruthless vigilante: one who turns to crime in order to take revenge on everyone who A. scarred him, and B. kept getting away from him in the courtroom. That way, he'd still be opposed to Batman consistently, but would be motivated by something that wasn't just evil; he'd still be Harvey Dent, just a very angry, lashing-out one.

>>87708366
I think it worked for Freeze in the DCAU though regarding his struggles to retain his humanity and his despondency at what he sees as a world that has taken everything from him before finally going out on his own terms in the future.

Freeze also never escaped from his cell in Arkham, he was kidnapped out of it by a guy who wanted his "secret" to eternal life (and Arkham being shit isn't something new). He then is presumed dead at the end of that episode, in SubZero and in Cold Comfort finally dying for real in Batman Beyond.

Faces by Matt Wagner is the best two face story

>>87716816
>He'd still be Harvey Dent
Antithetical to the character. Thanks for playing moviefag

>>87717267
>moviefag
This was exactly what he did in his first two episodes in BTAS, negroid.